Otto Suwen VS The Deep (Re: Zero VS The Boys) (3-2-0)

[Bruhtelho]

Brother, You have yet to answer this. How do you hit something that moves 12,350,000 m/s in short burst when you punch at 7.7 m/s

short burst btw so he'd only react maybe once?, if Deep just keeps punching then it comes down to combat speed where he holds a 2x advantage over Otto

 

[Bruhtelho]

also I can say the same thing, how is Otto ever hitting the deep? his combat/attack speed doesn't scale to his reaction or perception speed, Deep retains a 2x advantage against literally any of his attacks and can easily avoid them due to that, its not insurmountable but still a good advantage to have in combat.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

short burst btw so he'd only react maybe once?, if Deep just keeps punching then it comes down to combat speed where he holds a 2x advantage over Otto

Sir

Combat Speed​

The speed at which a character can fight.

Combat speed is not reacting speed. Its literally body locomotive movement and/or moving really fast over like a 2-5 meter distance. Reaction speed is dodging speed; how fast you can move in quick succession to evade an incoming obstacle. And Otto dodges and perceives attacks at 12,350,000 m/s. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever had to witness. We have people in a thread who think reaction speed is moving 10 meters back to avoid a punch.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Sir


Combat speed is not reacting speed. Its literally body locomotive movement and/or moving really fast over like a 2-5 meter distance. Reaction speed is dodging speed; how fast you can move in quick succession to evade an incoming obstacle. And Otto dodges and perceives attacks at 12,350,000 m/s. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever had to witness. We have people in a thread who think reaction speed is moving 10 meters back to avoid a punch.

Deep is going to be snail speed to this guy. Deep literally gets outclassed

Superhuman combat and reaction speed<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Deep_(TV_Series)#cite_note-12"><span>[</span>Statistics Values 2<span>]</span></a> (Kept up with Starlight in combat<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Deep_(TV_Series)#cite_note-S4E7-10"><span>[</span>9<span>]</span></a>. Effortlessly blitzed two criminals<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Deep_(TV_Series)#cite_note-S1E2-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a>)

Im not saying Otto has faster Combat speed or can even hit deep. Im saying Deep cannot hit Otto because he can react a million times faster. He will literally see him in snail pace

 

[Phoenks]

The person who made the profile even agrees Otto is only able to dodge like one punch via his reaction speed.

And again, the speed page itself states that multiple movements = combat speed. You are derailing at this point. Going to politely ask that you stop so we can actually have a debate here.

To be honest, I actually think Deep might have a social influencing advantage because he's literally seduced sea creatures before. I think that goes beyond what Otto has shown in terms of influencing animals? Didn't he also get rejected by a cat when he was younger?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The person who made the profile even agrees Otto is only able to dodge like one punch via his reaction speed.

That completely goes against the websites speed statistics therefore their words are invalid. You cannot hit something that reacts 1,603,896x faster than you unless it wants to be hit. That is not reason or an agreement basis. That is common sense. And it is so hilarious to me. You guys keep dodging the question

How do you hit something that can react 1 million x faster than you

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

also I can say the same thing, how is Otto ever hitting the deep? his combat/attack speed doesn't scale to his reaction or perception speed, Deep retains a 2x advantage against literally any of his attacks and can easily avoid them due to that, its not insurmountable but still a good advantage to have in combat.

Its not in character for Otto to fight an opponent who is clearly stronger than him head on, he did likely run away and we did get a chase sequence where Otto is constantly using animals and traps to slow and weaken Deep down, until it leads to a final attack that completely decimates him

Otto has previously used this same tactic to almost defeat arc 4 Garfiel

There is also this to consider:

Sound Manipulation (Can cast the sound of his footsteps in the distance)

Deep has super hearing so he did likely use this as a way to follow him

The person who made the profile even agrees Otto is only able to dodge like one punch via his reaction speed.

And again, the speed page itself states that multiple movements = combat speed. You are derailing at this point. Going to politely ask that you stop so we can actually have a debate here.

To be honest, I actually think Deep might have a social influencing advantage because he's literally seduced sea creatures before. I think that goes beyond what Otto has shown in terms of influencing animals? Didn't he also get rejected by a cat when he was younger?

Yeah, its pretty fun because we have a white cat choosing a black cat over him (ifykyk)

I think the seduction based SI is kind of useless here since Deep in character likely won't go for pacifying his enemy, they have both shown feats of getting animals to kill themselves or put themselves in mortal peril for him so i think its comparable at the very least

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And again, the speed page itself states that multiple movements = combat speed. You are derailing at this point. Going to politely ask that you stop so we can actually have a debate here.

It did not. Multiple movements in regards of which the speed you fight or attack at

Combat Speed
The speed at which a character can fight

Reaction speed is dodging speed

For example, let's say that character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That is reaction speed. Keep in mind, sometimes a person aim dodges and it is not as good of a feat.

As another example, let's say that character A uses a minigun on character B, but the minigun takes a second or two to charge up and Character B sees this. If Character B dodges it is considered aim dodging since he/she knew that the attack was going to happen.

Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range

I do not have a reason to back down because I am using the sites own words here

 

[Huesito88]

Its not in character for Otto to fight an opponent who is clearly stronger than him head on, he did likely run away and we did get a chase sequence where Otto is constantly using animals and traps to slow and weaken Deep down, until it leads to a final attack that completely decimates him

Otto has previously used this same tactic to almost defeat arc 4 Garfiel

Weaken how?

 

[Epiccheev]

The deep has the same thing but only with sea animals instead of all living things. He is best friends with like every being in the ocean for some reason, lol. He has been able to get mahy creatures to risk their lives for him or even outright sacrifice themselves. And has also seduced multiple creatures into having relationships with him, sexually or otherwise.

One successfully seduced an octopus, the other got NTRed by a cat.

 

[Zabazab]

Turning a cool thematic interspecies xenoglossy matchup into a speed debate because some people keep misunderstanding the speed page is Awesome.


Anyway, judging social influencing by who has stuck their dick in the most animals is craaazy. Otto's use of fauna is is just way more constant and way more creative, mostly due Otto's intelligence. He's practically carried a war effort by himself before. Especially in the Amazon, there's plenty of frogs, spiders, snakes, and other toxic animals he can use. The birds and insects make excellent eyes, and getting away with deception and magic while attacking from afar is his bread and butter.

 

[Epiccheev]

Also, since they are in the Amazon Rainforest both die of malaria

 

[Bruhtelho]

Its not in character for Otto to fight an opponent who is clearly stronger than him head on, he did likely run away and we did get a chase sequence where Otto is constantly using animals and traps to slow and weaken Deep down, until it leads to a final attack that completely decimates him

Why would he assume the deep is stronger than him? does he just assume anyone is stronger than him usually? The Deep doesn't exactly scream "strong" when I look at him given SBA just grants them that much. and if Otto heard the deep speak, he'd probably think he's a bumbling moron given the intelligence difference between the two

Otto could 100% take advantage of that tho given hes a lot smarter and can completely manipulate where the deep goes tho he has shown instances of being smart and on the fly thinking so its not a guaranteed thing to work for long esp given Deep has stamina on par with Starlight, whom was imprisoned for 10 days chained to the floor and proceeded to fight and beat shapeshifter.

I think the seduction based SI is kind of useless here since Deep in character likely won't go for pacifying his enemy, they have both shown feats of getting animals to kill themselves or put themselves in mortal peril for him so i think its comparable at the very least

he's not trying to seduce Otto, its mainly how charming he is towards sea life that any time Otto even gets close to the water he'd likely get instantly attacked by the things that dwell within those murky waters.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

snip

Otto is like one of the weakest in the verse and 99% of people he fights (minus Subaru) is physically stronger than him by a LOT

he's not trying to seduce Otto, its mainly how charming he is towards sea life that any time Otto even gets close to the water he'd likely get instantly attacked by the things that dwell within those murky waters.

Otto can hear them talk you know , he did avoid that at all costs

 

[Bruhtelho]

Otto can hear them talk you know , he did avoid that at all costs

Deep isn't talking to them tho, hes using telepathy on the sea-life but if the sea life does start talking then Otto would instantly know the water probably isn't safe but given most of the amazon is ambush predators that wait nothing guarantees they'd be talking up a storm plus we know he hears literally all of them something he was tormented by, can he tell which animals are which? it doesn't seem like he can and has to just take a guess what he's hearing.

if Deep gets close enough with the combat speed advantage and LS advantage, he could just grab and throw him into the water where he's at the mercy of the sea or during Otto's "running away" he could just end up in the water completely by accident given the amazon river is a massive part of the amazon forest esp the battle location picture.

 

[Phoenks]

The deep can get sea creatures to do crazy things though like going up someone's butt and stuff lol. Or just straight being willing to die for him and whatnot. And even when he gets them killed due to his incompetence, it still seems like they more or less still side with him in a lot of situations. There are a loooot of different types of fish in the water. Like piranhas. If Otto goes in the water at all he's probably just straight up dead unless he can overpower The Deep's animal influence.

The main issue is that the Deep is just kinda dumb and incompetent, but his strength sort of makes up for it in this fight. Otto pretty much has to keep running away from him, except he has slower movement speed.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Anyway, judging social influencing by who has stuck their dick in the most animals is craaazy. Otto's use of fauna is is just way more constant and way more creative, mostly due Otto's intelligence. He's practically carried a war effort by himself before. Especially in the Amazon, there's plenty of frogs, spiders, snakes, and other toxic animals he can use. The birds and insects make excellent eyes, and getting away with deception and magic while attacking from afar is his bread and butter.

Otto usually has time to prepare in those situations, where as here, hes just dropped into the amazon and the animals of the amazon might not listen to him since he'd still have to yknow talk to them and convince them well he's getting chased down by the Deep who's movement speed is higher and super-hearing so talking could be incredibly difficult.

 

[Bruhtelho]

honestly, I think i'm going the Peak for the following reasons

The Deep may be incredibly stupid and incompetent but at times his on the fly thinking has been pretty damn good like using a whale to block an entrance or realizing ashley was someone who couldn't be left alive alongside Super Hearing means actually trying to talk and convince the animals could just lead the deep to where he is. Given the battle location is surrounded by water, its incredibly likely Otto is gonna end up in the water at some point trying to escape the deep where he could end up getting mauled or hit by something he wouldn't expect due to them being silent creatures like the following.

Candiru: a tiny parasitic catfish which has, quite literally, been known to enter human orifices and require immediate medical intervention if it does.

Electric Eel: Capable of discharging up to 860 volts of electricity, which can stun prey or cause human heart failure and drowning which is basically lights out for Otto.

Freshwater Stingrays: known to be hidden in the sandy riverbeds, they possess venomous barbs; stepping on one causes extreme pain and severe tissue damage would greatly hinder and slow him down in the fight

Bull Sharks: have been known to swim through the amazon due to its connections and can easily latch onto and drag Otto down.

and most famously the Piranhas: in a school within any any of the water, if Otto gets mauled by them its likely over for him as they're incredibly hard to deal with

There's likely some I missed but the Amazon River is so large and open that its got 2,500 documented species of fish with estimates being over 5,000 giving Deep plenty of choices and fish to communicate with.

Otto has to form his alliances with the animals and actually talk to them which is gonna alert the deep to where he is unlike the deep who simply telepathically communicates with sea life and they usually just follow him cause they like him as is. if Deep gets close enough then its gonna be hard to lose him due to the 2x advantage and if he gets ahold of him, dragging him into the water is gonna happen or just take him out right then and there with the 8x AP advantage he holds against him.

Otto has his advantages like reaction and perception speed, the stealth mastery, overall more versatile arsenal, and far greater intelligence that'll give the Deep plenty of trouble esp given if he does convince certain animals to fight for him like dart frogs, snakes, spiders then Deep is gonna have his work cut out. Eventually he's gonna slip up and give Deep the chance to use his own advantages mainly the 2x combat and movement speed advantage, the 8x AP and dura advantage which is gonna make properly damaging the deep hard, the LS advantage which means any grapple will be GG, super-hearing makes convincing the animals difficult without the deep hearing, and that any water is literal death sentence for Otto if he gets close to it which I can see happening esp since the location is surrounded by it.

 

[Crimsonobu]

If the Deep and Otto start from a distance and Otto begins the fight by casting magic to remain hidden how does the deep find him? Otto walked up to Arc 4 Garf and touched him on the shoulder with Garf sensing nothing and he has superior sense so the Deep to my knowledge.

 

[ShionAH]

Voting the Peak

 

[Epiccheev]

Super Hearing means actually trying to talk and convince the animals could just lead the deep to where he is.

Real eyes...Realize...Real lies.
Real ears...Hear...Real fears.

 

[Phoenks]

If the Deep and Otto start from a distance and Otto begins the fight by casting magic to remain hidden how does the deep find him? Otto walked up to Arc 4 Garf and touched him on the shoulder with Garf sensing nothing and he has superior sense so the Deep to my knowledge.

Deep could use sea creatures to help find him. But eventually, even if Deep cant find him, Otto is going to have to come back and fight him. Also, I don't think he has a level of stealth where he can't be seen. So as long as Deep/other animals have eyes on him, he can't just disappear. But it would still be very helpful.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Deep could use sea creatures to help find him. But eventually, even if Deep cant find him, Otto is going to have to come back and fight him. Also, I don't think he has a level of stealth where he can't be seen. So as long as Deep/other animals have eyes on him, he can't just disappear. But it would still be very helpful.

It's not that he can't be seen but even for the Deep's senses it'd be difficult. Furthermore, I do believe Otto has access to a larger variety of animal and he even make birds approach Volcanica, he's more capable of inducing them to do reckless things or deceiving creatures.

Also bit related but Otto was able to remain undetected by the Alderbusters for so long that Al just decided he's going to destroy the forest to find Otto. Same Al who has people like Roy, Volcanica, Felt, Yae, and etc on his team. And even that took over 700 times because when he found them he changed his location

Aldebaran: [――――]

With the Dragon’s breath unleashed, not only was the land scorched, but signs of its influence appeared in the sky and surrounding atmosphere as well.

With the clouds torn asunder, and the rain and wind that were supposed to have occurred banished from the land, the traces of the Dragon had been deeply engraved; ravages of the Dragon’s rage, so to speak.

Naturally, there existed no living beings that did not fear the ire of the overwhelming existence that was the Dragon.

Because there existed no beings that could fight back against a rampaging Dragon mad with rage, it was an ironclad rule that when faced with the Dragon’s fury, all forms of life would keep their heads held low, attempting to conceal their presence, and waiting for the storm to pass.

――Therefore, the likes of birds and bugs promptly approaching the ravages of that rage, was far beyond unnatural.

Aldebaran: [Looks like a miss.]

Seeing a flock of birds assembling around the area scorched by the breath to ascertain the damages, Aldebaran muttered words that would fade away in the confines of his mouth.

The vast majority of animals were straightforward, and faithful to their instincts. If that was being distorted, and they were acting in a manner dishonest to their instincts, it was proof of some sort of unnatural interference.

That was to say, it was proof that the existence enacting that unnatural interference had survived.

Ascertaining that, Aldebaran would――,

Aldebaran: [――Next.]

Muttering that, he unwrapped the poisonous drug package within his mouth, and gulped down the deadly bane.

2nd section

Aldebaran: [Target, six o’clock to nine o’clock. ――Fire, Alter.]

Aldebaran: [Target, six o’clock to eight o’clock. Slight adjustment.]

Aldebaran: [Target, six o’clock to seven o’clock.]

Aldebaran: [Target, lock to seven o’clock. Adjust range output, breath to eighty percent.]

Aldebaran: [Seventy percent.]

Aldebaran: [Sixty percent.]

Aldebaran: [Sixty-five percent.]

Aldebaran: [Sixty-five point five percent.]

Aldebaran: [――Sixty-five point five percent, confirmed.]

△▼△▼△▼△

――Seven-hundred and fourteen.

3rd section

As Yae was correcting Aldebaran’s mistaken impression, she added that bit onto the end.

With the modification to how he utilized the Territory, he had located their pursuer’s whereabouts. After completing that, they had needed the quickest means to reach their opponent before he could discern their intentions―― that had resulted in having the airborne “Aldebaran” hurl Yae to the target position.

If it took Al 714 times to find and immobilise Otto then I don't think the deep or any sea creature is doing it. The Amazon range forest is big and Otto doesn't need to see his opponents to win. Otto's standard tactics are also

His exhaustion continued to accumulate with every passing moment, something Aldebaran felt keenly.

Aldebaran: [I’m fine with procuring food locally, same with getting water by freezing the atmosphere and licking the ice, but… the fact that our sleeping hours are being curtailed is seriously draining.]

They continued to face relentless sabotage, an endless torment for the Aldebaran Party.

The majority of the damage inflicted by those disturbances was nothing so major that left them wounded or pressed them to retreat from the war front, but rather, nasty tricks that just kept them in a state of exhaustion. And whenever he would think along such lines, they would be hit with an attack of the same class as the falling boulder that had been the first maneuver used against them at the quarry, highlighting the underhandedness of the techniques which did not allow them to relax their vigilance whatsoever.

I think Otto takes this for the reasons I outlined so I'm voting him.

 

[Phoenks]

I mean, you only provided reasons for why Otto would be able to hide. Not for how he would be able to actually win the fight.

Hiding doesn't win fights

 

[Crimsonobu]

I mean, you only provided reasons for why Otto would be able to hide. Not for how he would be able to actually win the fight.

Hiding doesn't win fights

Oh it slipped out of my mind to say it explicitly as it was in excepts, I think he'd use the same tactics such as witting him down, has access to poison via snakes, wider options, and can just launch boulders from afar. Then even if Deep is still alive, Otto could use magic to finish him off.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Yeah i also see brotto taking this, voting Otto fra

 

[Epiccheev]

Iirc if The Deep is bulletproof would he be pierced bu fangs and the like?

 

[Huesito88]

has access to poison via snakes

He uses the snakes to poison or he has poison made from snakes?

 

[ShionAH]

I don't get it, if Otto can just run away into the forest what stops Deep from going into the rivers or the nearest body of water and get all the sea creatures to guard him and look for Otto?

Additionally, the snakes probably can't pierce the Deep

 

[ShionAH]

The Deep can tell the animals to tell the other animals which can span the entirety of earth in what seems to be like days at best, so any second wasted for Otto means another billion fish swimming to amazon forest to assist and any hour is trillions of them swimming that way. I am starting to think this is a stomp ngl

 

[Epiccheev]

Tbf most sea fish cant survive in river water due to osmotic shock.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

The Deep can tell the animals to tell the other animals which can span the entirety of earth in what seems to be like days at best, so any second wasted for Otto means another billion fish swimming to amazon forest to assist and any hour is trillions of them swimming that way. I am starting to think this is a stomp ngl

The Deep is not smart enough to actually utilize that as an effective global strategy. Realistically, he would spend most of the fight slowly trying to track Otto down while being terrible at it, all while constantly getting harassed by Otto’s animals.

Meanwhile, this kind of large-scale information network is far more in-character for Otto to abuse strategically.

Also, Otto’s animals have already been shown capable of harassing and interfering with Flow Method users, so translating that interaction here is not unreasonable. While the Amazon animals individually are weaker than some of Otto’s usual summons, the sheer pressure and coordination still matters.

The Zodda Bugs especially are notable here. Despite only being around 10-C physically, they were still capable of harassing characters vastly above that level, which could imply either some degree of durability negation through their attacks/stings or simply overwhelming effectiveness through numbers and constant interference.

 

[Crimsonobu]

I don't get it, if Otto can just run away into the forest what stops Deep from going into the rivers or the nearest body of water and get all the sea creatures to guard him and look for Otto?

Additionally, the snakes probably can't pierce the Deep

I'm confused what do you mean running away into the forest? It starts in the rainforest and also the sea creatures aren't confirmed to be under the control of the deep or anything.

If you are asking who do I think is better at influencing animals and creatures then I think it's Otto who can convince creatures to perform suicidal acts.

He uses the snakes to poison or he has poison made from snakes?

He knows how to make concoction but it's not indexed on his profile which I have forgot so I'll stop mentioning it. But snakes to poison applies.

The Deep can tell the animals to tell the other animals which can span the entirety of earth in what seems to be like days at best

This is based on the premise the Deep can do this in a foreign environment with sea creatures. When I watched the show they could ignore him if they didn't like him and he typically used one familiar with him. I also don't know if we've seen a sea creature take to a land creature in the boys so I'm not sure of that?

 

[Crimsonobu]

Also, Otto’s animals have already been shown capable of harassing and interfering with Flow Method users, so translating that interaction here is not unreasonable. While the Amazon animals individually are weaker than some of Otto’s usual summons, the sheer pressure and coordination still matters.

The Zodda Bugs especially are notable here. Despite only being around 10-C physically, they were still capable of harassing characters vastly above that level, which could imply either some degree of durability negation through their attacks/stings or simply overwhelming effectiveness through numbers and constant interference.

I didn't mention this because I don't think its valid. The animals should be from the animal rainforest, it's specifically why Phonks used the place as a setting. So the animals are standard earth creatures not zodda bugs or animals which can use intefere method. Thats more specific to the creatures in rezero than earth Amazon animals.

 

[Huesito88]

The Zodda Bugs especially are notable here. Despite only being around 10-C physically, they were still capable of harassing characters vastly above that level, which could imply either some degree of durability negation through their attacks/stings or simply overwhelming effectiveness through numbers and constant interference.

Or they have higher "Insert Tier rating from whom they damaged" AP via piercing damage (which should be listed)

 

[ShionAH]

The Deep is not smart enough to actually utilize that as an effective global strategy.

He never had to do it, but if his life is on the line and he is actually near water for once then why not? Reason why he is "useless" in the show is because you can counter him entirely by not being close to water

If you are asking who do I think is better at influencing animals and creatures then I think it's Otto who can convince creatures to perform suicidal acts.

Deep can do the same, he also has sexual relations with a lot of them. Can Otto do that?? Huh??

When I watched the show they could ignore him if they didn't like him

This is only after the spill, thats not what we are using.

I also don't know if we've seen a sea creature take to a land creature in the boys so I'm not sure of that?

What? I meant fish speaking to other fish and spreading the news. Which happened in canon.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Or they have higher "Insert Tier rating from whom they damaged" AP via piercing damage (which should be listed)

Yeah but the zodda bugs are kind of a non factor as Otto is limited to amazon animals/insects.

 

[Phoenks]

Tbf Deep probably isn't super teeth resistant because in S5 a literal shark was threatening him and Deep was actually worried about being in the water. I think it might specifically just be bulletproof ness that he has.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I didn't mention this because I don't think its valid. The animals should be from the animal rainforest, it's specifically why Phonks used the place as a setting. So the animals are standard earth creatures not zodda bugs or animals which can use intefere method. Thats more specific to the creatures in rezero than earth Amazon animals.

I dont recall it being confirmed that zodda bugs used flow method?

adding zodda bugs to his standard equipment later on...

 

[ShionAH]

Aliteral shark was threatening him and Deep was actually worried about being in the water.

If he jumps in they can target his gills and there are literally trillions of them lol, obviously he is worried