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Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision

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I do not agree with the creator of this thread for these reasons ↓

First, we have attack speeds reaching 96.8 quattuordecillion c, meaning that when Goku fires a Kamehameha, the speed of the attack is around the value you proposed. The speed can vary, but it is generally comparable among the characters, and many characters are capable of releasing continuous energy attacks like this.

Many characters have managed to repel such continuous attacks using only their hands and pushing them back physically, and this qualifies as lifting strength. This is because the energy is pressing against you at roughly 96.8 quattuordecillion c. If something is continuously pressing against you at such a speed, then logically its pressure surpasses the compressive force of anything that could exist in the universe, even the universe itself. There is nothing greater than a pressure moving at 96.8 quattuordecillion c that you repel with your hand and push upward against its direction. This is also lifting strength, because you are lifting and opposing the energy with your hands while it is crushing against you, and this exceeds gravitational crushing. As I said, even gravity itself would not press against you in this manner.

A continuous energy attack colliding with your hand at 96.8 quattuordecillion c and continuing to push against you at that same speed is something that surpasses any weight whatsoever.

This is also lifting strength. Lifting a continuous energy attack that is pressing against you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c is an immense feat, far greater than placing a billion planets on top of you and lifting them. Honestly, fans should not overlook this either.

This is a feat. It is the same principle as gravity—both are forms of pressure. A mass or force rushing toward you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c surpasses any pressure or weight that could possibly be resisted.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
This is a feat. It is the same principle as gravity—both are forms of pressure. A mass or force rushing toward you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c surpasses any pressure or weight that could possibly be resisted.
Click to expand...
1. It would be calc stacking
2. Same problem as with calculating FTL KE. Momentum for FTL objects doesn't have real values.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
I do not agree with the creator of this thread for these reasons ↓

First, we have attack speeds reaching 96.8 quattuordecillion c, meaning that when Goku fires a Kamehameha, the speed of the attack is around the value you proposed. The speed can vary, but it is generally comparable among the characters, and many characters are capable of releasing continuous energy attacks like this.

Many characters have managed to repel such continuous attacks using only their hands and pushing them back physically, and this qualifies as lifting strength. This is because the energy is pressing against you at roughly 96.8 quattuordecillion c. If something is continuously pressing against you at such a speed, then logically its pressure surpasses the compressive force of anything that could exist in the universe, even the universe itself. There is nothing greater than a pressure moving at 96.8 quattuordecillion c that you repel with your hand and push upward against its direction. This is also lifting strength, because you are lifting and opposing the energy with your hands while it is crushing against you, and this exceeds gravitational crushing. As I said, even gravity itself would not press against you in this manner.

A continuous energy attack colliding with your hand at 96.8 quattuordecillion c and continuing to push against you at that same speed is something that surpasses any weight whatsoever.

This is also lifting strength. Lifting a continuous energy attack that is pressing against you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c is an immense feat, far greater than placing a billion planets on top of you and lifting them. Honestly, fans should not overlook this either.

This is a feat. It is the same principle as gravity—both are forms of pressure. A mass or force rushing toward you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c surpasses any pressure or weight that could possibly be resisted.
Click to expand...
This assumes Dragon Ball even follows newton’s second law which they clearly don’t cuz of the dozens of anti feats that come along with them, some of which were highlighted in the OP. Also assumes the verse follows general relativity

And if the force was greater than the Universe’s mass-energy, why isn’t… the universe destroyed or remotely threatened by a random kamehameha???

Plus, that speed value isn’t even valid cuz it got nuked in the prior CRT
 
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That post at the top of this page feels AI-generated to me. Which is fine, but there are other reasons not to take it seriously like the fact that the speed value isn't relevant to any of the characters covered in the OP.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Should we then, considering Toriyama decided that normal humans have a PL of 5, while 100% intending for PLs to be linear (That's why Goku's PL of 10 goes to 100 with Great Ape's flat x10 boost, or why the Kaioken always comes out 1-to-1 with the PL increase), throw away all those Moon Busts and make them all like, what, x30 normal humans? Cause Toriyama didn't think about the implications of making normal humans that strong? No, obviously not.
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This idea reminded me of this video: scaling Farmer backward using Power Level.

 
I'm not sure about this, because for every statement, there's a proportional amount of feats that contradict that statement. Luckily @Eden_Warlock99 provided us with most of those feats, and how they stack up against these statements. Let's compare quantity, to see if calling the feats an outlier makes sense, instead of just presuming Toriyama had absolutely no notion of what his own characters were capable of, and this mismatch is the (second) largest case of PIS statements and limits of the wiki, falling only short of CW Flash, which is actually the most egregious examples of a mismatch of statements vs feats in the wiki imo.

Son Goku saga (Chapters 1-54)​

According to OP, this stretch of chapters has a total of 3 anti-feat showings.
  • Two shell anti-feats
  • One throwing "anti-feat"
The last one is particularly iffy because the weight of a character doesn't take into account their own strength oppositing lift, which is a common pattern. Nonetheless, consider it 3 total.

But for these 3 indications of Akira being utterly silly with basic math, there is a total of 9 whole feats that would make each and every one of these anti-feats contradictory with on-screen showings.

  • Three stump is 4077kg, 20 times higher than the largest "anti-feat"
  • The car lift is likely 1000kg, 5 times higher than the largest anti-feat. If you include the throw, it's probably higher.
  • Goku crushing a boulder is 3500kg, also around 15-20 times higher
  • The bear is physically weaker than Goku but can generate 5000kg swings, tens of times higher than the anti-feat presented
  • Great Ape Goku, who has a power level below several characters can also lift buildings.
  • First few chapters have Goku carrying a giant ass Turtle for several kilometers that weighs 100kg MINIMUM, the 20-40kg training is a contradiction to everything the series has shown so far.
  • MIND YOU, THE FEAT WHERE GOKU PUSHES A BOULDER IS IN THE SAME CHAPTER HE STRUGGLES WITH 20kg

You get the point, it's 9 whole feats, all ranging from 1000kg minimum all the way up to 5000kg, they're far closer to one another than to whatever anti-feat OP presented. Unless you're asking us to ignore every single feat presented in the story up to Chapter 54 in favor of three instances of Toriyama being unaware of the several feats he already wrote in his story, calling the feats outliers is a stretch.

Feats: 9 (Class 1-Class 100)
Anti-Feats: 3 (Average Human-Class 1)

Red Ribbon Army Saga (Chapters 55-112)​

This is an ever worse example, egregious even, as there are no anti-feats in this part of the story (at least none that were made aware by OP, who I'd think would look intensively for them). Yet, the amount of feats just keep piling up.

  • General Blue crushing a phone booth is literally thousands of times higher than the lastest anti-feat. 228797796kg feat vs 211kg anti-feat.
  • The pillar throw, a signature move and literally part of Tao's character, is casually twice as strong as the previous feat, weirdly consistent too.

So now we have 11 feats vs 3 anti-feats. Outlier is looking iffy. There are definitely other examples of characters jumping impossible heights, doing impossible things, if they were truly only Class 1 at best.

Piccolo Saga (Chapter 113-194)​

Finally, after, literally, 70+ chapters, we get our first real anti-feat again, through Goku using weighted armor around 115kg, and that being enough to slow him down. But, again, this contradicts more than a dozen of feats in the story that would be immediately contradicted by this being held on a higher regard than the literal story feats.

In the same arc where Goku implies 115kg is too much for him, unexplicably, Toriyama also decided it was a good idea to have him:
  • Throw a gigantic version of Piccolo off his feat (116000kg vs 115kg anti-feat)
  • Have Piccolo himself being able to even EXIST at that weight, as his strength, as mentioned before in this very thread, isn't increased. Meaning he is still using his normal-sized strength, while being able to move. jump and fight at this new weight. Another 116-ton feat, casually.
So again, 13 feats vs 4 anti-feats.

Is OG DB really more consistent if we take statements at face value? REALLY? Having 4 instances being the determining factor of scaling, while having dozens upon dozens of feats just being explained away by "eh, it's inconsistent"?

That's not close to how we do things around this site, so I expect a downgrade thread on the aforementioned CW Arrowverse based on the exact same reasons, as the show probably has the same amount of feats as DB in terms of speed, with far, FAR more anti-feat statements to boot.

Miscellaneous feats​


  • Characters weaker than the Goku that couldn't lift 40 tons can lift a 2000 ton sword
  • Of course, Class G TK Cell
  • Base DBS Vegeta is casually able to pull out Class G levels of force to stop a building's momentum, with a mere tap of his fingers.
  • Not to mention the several times in the series where characters can stop energy waves (which have force) with their bare hands without budging. These are incalculable, sure, but they are still relevant.

Of course, this is roughly the same thing other have said, but painting the fact, at least in OG DB, we have a plethora of feats that outweight the statements is proof that it, is also not, a reliable method of indexing the characters. Using the weird anti-feats from weighted clothes simply indicate that these characters don't grow in strength and that the milestones from the past are still relevant today which is against the very core of the series, and contradicts so much that it's silly to think it is the most accurate version of these character's strength. Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

I think the current middle ground is fine, Class G is fine, it's ridiculously low for Solar System characters already.
 
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While the breakdown of feats is appreciated, I believe that the majority of these are derived from fanmade calculations; calculations that while useful in the absence of any alternative are still based upon assumptions and methods that the original creator might've never contemplated. For example Toriyama might've never considered that "crushing a phonebooth" would be 228797796 kg feat by our standards.

I think it is more important to consider the feats that are solidly based on statements of concrete figures, i.e. 10 tons for Goku's training weights, 1000 tons for the metal alien guy, etc which are directly given to us, as opposed to 2,657 tons for the Z-sword which isn't directly stated.

For example, if a character said "My special technique, Shadow Movement, allows me to move at an incredible 50 meters per second", but we had a fanmade calculation that said "Based on FTE visuals, and average human reaction time, the character has been calculated to move at Mach 12". Would we prefer to go with what the character said? Or what we calculated?
 
Damage3245 said:
derived from fanmade calculations
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, are we at the point of the great revolution where calculations, most of which are truly so simple that they only reveal common sense, is being considered as a less reliable method than statements that contradict most showings?

Couldn't you say the same about a series that has over 30+ statements about speed being hypersonic, but has easily calculable FTL feats constantly throughout the series? And I apologize for bringing up this example again, Damage, but you know it's a double standard. Each and every calculation of CW Flash is a "fan-calculation", that is obviously correct and only reveals that the statements are bogus and non-sensical. Some are as simple as measuring the circumference of Earth and measuring on-screen time.

We don't treat IT as just "several fan-calcs, but the statements are better", why should we do it here? Shit, you don't need calculations, common sense tells you that you can't knock out a gigantic person with "barely athletic human" level strength, common sense tells you that 20kg is too low for someone who can push a boulder bigger than a house. All it requires is understanding how much 20kg weigh, and how heavy is a medium sized rock.

At this point, we would only be indexing the characters as being unable to perform the feats they literally perform in the story already. Can you imagine a Class 1 Tao Pai Pai in a discussion?

"Tao Pai Pai could throw the pillar to catch up to the flying opponent trying to run away? No he couldn't, he only has Class 1 LS, do you know how much strength that would take?"

That could be a legit argument someone makes, and it would "make sense' because of nonsensical ratings. It's just incoherent.
 
Damage3245 said:
For example, if a character said "My special technique, Shadow Movement, allows me to move at an incredible 50 meters per second", but we had a fanmade calculation that said "Based on FTE visuals, and average human reaction time, the character has been calculated to move at Mach 12". Would we prefer to go with what the character said? Or what we calculated?
Click to expand...
Sorry for not addressing the example.

We would go with the statement.

But that's not the example.

Imagine if a character can move at FTE with a technique, but the statement says "I'm a fast as a honda civic". Then we would go with the feat and consider the author a lunatic.

EDIT: Or, use any lower bound of speed as the example of the statement, at some point the mismatch is too great to ignore.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Sorry for not addressing the example.

We would go with the statement.

But that's not the example.

Imagine if a character can move at FTE with a technique, but the statement says "I'm a fast as a honda civic". Then we would go with the feat and consider the author a lunatic.

EDIT: Or, use any lower bound of speed as the example of the statement, at some point the mismatch is too great to ignore.
Click to expand...
I normally would agree with this statement, but in this example, the statement would be immediately followed by the character struggling to keep up with the Honda Civic and consistently having similar issues in stronger forms, no? The whole aspect about gravity and weights having a large impact on the characters is rather consistent.
 
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I’ve actually been thinking about this exact same thing Damage argued for months now. I’ve expressed it to a few users, but it’s a very radical change to our status quo.

If a series has a bunch of statements and showings about a certain speed level, say Subsonic, and then you calc a blitz feat and get like Mach 2 or so, I’d instantly be against it. Your calc is something you personally achieved through numbers that were not present in the manga or the medium in question.

I do believe we should be more careful with what exactly the author in question considered to be a feat, and what’s a consequence of his ignorance, so you don’t call him “inconsistent” or “stupid” (actually imagine calling Akira Toriyama “stupid”) for something he’s not at fault.

I think this also applies to Dragon Ball, it’s actually very cool to see that Akira did implement a progression in lifting strength, going from 10G to 100G and then further beyond, and it seems weird to us that we see “obvious” lifting strength feats and think “Why is this feat higher than the statements and their trainings?”.

But ultimately, I don’t think it’s time to argue that now. Some may say that’s common sense, but I think that’s a bigger, radical change we have yet to implement sometime in the future.
 
SomebodyData said:
I normally would agree with this statement, but in this example, the statement would be immediately followed by the character struggling to keep up with the Honda Civic and consistently having similar issues in stronger forms, no? The whole aspect about gravity and weights having a large impact on the characters is rather consistent.
Click to expand...
Yeah but do we just not index the FTE, which is repeated just as much if not more than the Honda Civic feat? Do we just, genuinely, index the character as unable to perform the very feat he can, canonically, perform?

I don't think JUST sticking to 100% statements/anti-feats is the solution either, which seems to be what OP is proposing with no possibility for compromise.
 
M3X_2.0 said:
I’ve actually been thinking about this exact same thing Damage argued for months now. I’ve expressed it to a few users, but it’s a very radical change to our status quo.

If a series has a bunch of statements and showings about a certain speed level, say Subsonic, and then you calc a blitz feat and get like Mach 2 or so, I’d instantly be against it. Your calc is something you personally achieved through numbers that were not present in the manga or the medium in question.

I do believe we should be more careful with what exactly the author in question considered to be a feat, and what’s a consequence of his ignorance, so you don’t call him “inconsistent” or “stupid” (actually imagine calling Akira Toriyama “stupid”) for something he’s not at fault.

I think this also applies to Dragon Ball, it’s actually very cool to see that Akira did implement a progression in lifting strength, going from 10G to 100G and then further beyond, and it seems weird to us that we see “obvious” lifting strength feats and think “Why is this feat higher than the statements and their trainings?”.

But ultimately, I don’t think it’s time to argue that now. Some may say that’s common sense, but I think that’s a bigger, radical change we have yet to implement sometime in the future.
Click to expand...
One example I just remembered was when comics Daredevil was tied to one of those hospital beds, and then broke free from the ties and ripped the metal parts of the bed, it’s like, a very non-feat and I doubt Chip Zdarsky thought “hehe, Class K feat”. You can actually check his profile and see the calc.

Our calc methods are inherently flawed, you can get superhuman Tiers for stuff happens IRL just by running our methods.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
I do not agree with the creator of this thread for these reasons ↓

First, we have attack speeds reaching 96.8 quattuordecillion c, meaning that when Goku fires a Kamehameha, the speed of the attack is around the value you proposed. The speed can vary, but it is generally comparable among the characters, and many characters are capable of releasing continuous energy attacks like this.

Many characters have managed to repel such continuous attacks using only their hands and pushing them back physically, and this qualifies as lifting strength. This is because the energy is pressing against you at roughly 96.8 quattuordecillion c. If something is continuously pressing against you at such a speed, then logically its pressure surpasses the compressive force of anything that could exist in the universe, even the universe itself. There is nothing greater than a pressure moving at 96.8 quattuordecillion c that you repel with your hand and push upward against its direction. This is also lifting strength, because you are lifting and opposing the energy with your hands while it is crushing against you, and this exceeds gravitational crushing. As I said, even gravity itself would not press against you in this manner.

A continuous energy attack colliding with your hand at 96.8 quattuordecillion c and continuing to push against you at that same speed is something that surpasses any weight whatsoever.

This is also lifting strength. Lifting a continuous energy attack that is pressing against you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c is an immense feat, far greater than placing a billion planets on top of you and lifting them. Honestly, fans should not overlook this either.

This is a feat. It is the same principle as gravity—both are forms of pressure. A mass or force rushing toward you at 96.8 quattuordecillion c surpasses any pressure or weight that could possibly be resisted.
Click to expand...
I think this argument has merit just not in the way is presented, Ki blasts have momentum as we see a clear example of them pushing people ie ( Vegeta vs KK4 Kamehameha, Gohan being literally propelled by Majin Buus blast, Gokus feet KHH actually giving him propulsion, and all the assortment of mass ejections for every single time they blow up something, by logical extension, characters who face tank those blasts without so much as budging are enduring forces in the bare minimum class M to Stellar ranges.

Me personally see no practical application for lifting feats unless characters are entering a bench press contest due to this, as it would imply you only need at most 1000 tons to deflect a planet busting ki blast which is not something clearly intended to be a thing.
 
AguilaR202 said:
I think this argument has merit just not in the way is presented, Ki blasts have momentum as we see a clear example of them pushing people ie ( Vegeta vs KK4 Kamehameha, Gohan being literally propelled by Majin Buus blast, Gokus feet KHH actually giving him propulsion, and all the assortment of mass ejections for every single time they blow up something, by logical extension, characters who face tank those blasts without so much as budging are enduring forces in the bare minimum class M to Stellar ranges.

Me personally see no practical application for lifting feats unless characters are entering a bench press contest due to this, as it would imply you only need at most 1000 tons to deflect a planet busting ki blast which is not something clearly intended to be a thing.
Click to expand...
are enduring forces in the bare minimum class M to Stellar ranges
Click to expand...

No the hell they are not
 
AguilaR202 said:
I think this argument has merit just not in the way is presented, Ki blasts have momentum as we see a clear example of them pushing people ie ( Vegeta vs KK4 Kamehameha, Gohan being literally propelled by Majin Buus blast, Gokus feet KHH actually giving him propulsion, and all the assortment of mass ejections for every single time they blow up something, by logical extension, characters who face tank those blasts without so much as budging are enduring forces in the bare minimum class M to Stellar ranges.

Me personally see no practical application for lifting feats unless characters are entering a bench press contest due to this, as it would imply you only need at most 1000 tons to deflect a planet busting ki blast which is not something clearly intended to be a thing.
Click to expand...
That seems to fall more into Striking Strength territory than Lifting Strength, a ki blast sending someone flying wouldnt be LS I believe.
 
something blowing up and moving things through energy output doesn't scale at all to the lifting strength that would propositionally go there
 
KingTempest said:
something blowing up and moving things through energy output doesn't scale at all to the lifting strength that would propositionally go there
Click to expand...
Well that’s a fair point, but it’s one of the concessions made to reconcile inconsistencies in on site ratings, not something that’s intrinsically incorrect.
 
Actually, change my vote to neutral. Unless the supporters got compelling responses to Charmander and Aguila, I’m more swayed on the ”feats and common sense > hard-capped statements” route.

This isn’t exclusive to Dragon Ball for me either, multiple verses with statements that have hard caps that do not line up to their feats with a simple sanity check are just a no no for me, regardless of the numbers coming from a fan calculating the canon scenes. I don’t think fan calculations should be discarded unless the calcs were straight up lying to people
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Click to expand...

Thank you
Magic and Ki do not correlate whatsoever
i6fEZaE.png
 
Robo432343 said:
yeah but the thing with dragon ball is that it was made explicitly clear what Toriyama is trying to portray for the LS stuff
Click to expand...
The same Akira Toriyama that often forgot and contradict his own stuff?

Anyway
GodlyCharmander said:
So again, 13 feats vs 4 anti-feats.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i'm not agree with this thread, the amount of feat is overwhelming

And no, don't bring me the thing such as "it is Toriyama intention" cause i'm not going to scaling author intention if said intention being inconsistent across his own work
 
Last edited:
ProudLearner said:
Piccolo is talking about his Giant Form does not increses his power the bigger he gets. He did to goku at the tournament to bluff him.

Click to expand...

There is a pretty big issue, the 10x statement referring to Giant Piccolo before or after getting even to full size?

IIRC, Goku threw him before Piccolo got to his max size.

GodlyCharmander said:
~Snip~
Click to expand...

That's a good point with all the feats outnumbering the anti-feats in original Dragon Ball. I'm not sure how I feel about using the larger characters in early Dragons Ball tho, especially when we have stuff Vegeta being crushed by the weight of Great Ape Gohan, when Great Ape Pilaf Sagas Goku could clearly maintain his own weight.

I do still have concerns with how the opposite appears to be the case in Z, especially with the recent posts making the TK feats invalid.
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Making an early vote tally to make it easier to check in the future. (Only counting Staff Members and Calc Members)

Current votes
Agree: @M3X_2.0 (OP - Calc Member), @SomebodyData (here), @Damage3245 (Here), @KingTempest (here)
Disagree: @Vietthai96 (here)
Neutral: @Nierre (here),

People who have not voted: @DarkDragonMedeus (Seems to disagree but has not voted), @Chariot190 (seems to agree, but has not voted - Calc Member)
Click to expand...
I disagree. Also, Chariot isn't staff anymore. Just a minor note.
 
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