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N-Daguva-Zeba VS Unforgotten Spectre Liz (Top 15 Strongest Non-Smurf 9-A Ranking Battle) (1-0-0)

Shadowslash125

Shadowslash125

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Made this for Daguva to contest being above Unforgotten Spectre in the top 15 strongest non-smurf 9-A rankings.
Due to the nature of this battle, I can't be as fancy.

Battle Conditions:​

  • Speeds are equalized
  • Both are at their strongest 9-A keys
  • Everything else unmentioned will be according to SBA

Votings:​


Combatants​
Votings​
Daguva@Shadowslash125
Liz
🤷‍♂️
 
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Welp, this shouldn't be going too far

You pointed out to me how his senses go far as hell
It is a normal behaviour for everyone to look where they're going, where they're aiming at, who will they kill specially if the guy immediately wants to go to his ultimate form and then will make her implode in flames

"Oh but he can do that by knowing her general direction with AoE"
If someone can look, it is a typical behaviour of any human being to do so and i would not like to repeat it again

"He's Eccentric, plays with food, (etc)"
That is actually even more justification for why would he act as a normal being and start the match by looking at where he's going


It is not hard to imagine, it is not hard to justify, it is not even changing N-Daguva-Zeba's position, i have no clue why are you so focused on trying to specifically say that your guy who can look at someone won't do it since it is OoC for every human or human-like character to ever exist basically
 
SBA conditions makes them at least a kilometer a part of each other, which vastly exceeds Liz's current SMA/EMA range compared to Daguva's planetary via SIA.

If the 15-layered fear manip is accurated as what the profile is described it, then it would still be rendered without effect as it affects those in a short range of her.

Madness manip is a problem as Daguva has no resistance to that, but Pegasus abilities will already allow him to perceive her from such distance without the need to see her (while he can also see her from that distance, the sight technique itself isn't passive as Kuuga has to zoom while using Gouram to support himself before targetting his foes) and S.I.A. is his first move regardless of who he is targetting (he used it on his first kill spree post-liberation and against Ultimate Kuuga for the final fight).
 
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Which is what I mean by he won't be sparing a glance at her, cuz his other senses will pick her up by himself!
 
Shadowslash125 said:
Which is what I mean by he won't be sparing a glance at her, cuz his other senses will pick her up by himself!
Click to expand...
All his senses are amped equally or somewhat equally, per the description of the Enhanced Senses part we linked back in the main thread
So he can look
And he can't know that will be screwing him up without PKno or LPKno
And everyone who can look at where they're aiming and don't know it'll f* them up does this
So he will look
By looking he's subject to Disturbing Presence
So he loses


Mate, her placement changes nothing for N-Daguva-Zeba, and her placement is even less legitimate than others by having to state it is with Speed Equal
The effort of keeping this up will bring nothing, it is not even humiliating or anything alike because there ain't even a battle happening
And her placement is tie-ing with someone he could never reach (and she stays there for the same reason she wins today) without taking his placement down, so i practically can't fathom why so much effort

ZeedKZ said:
Pegasus abilities will already allow him to perceive her from such distance without the need to see her (while he can also see her from that distance, the sight technique itself isn't passive as Kuuga has to zoom while using Gouram to support himself before targetting his foes)
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about techniques, i'm talking about his senses being able to naturally reach the SBA distance
By getting Kuuga's powers, he gets Yusuke Godai's Kamen Rider Physiology

  • Enhanced Senses (Vision to Hearing; All Kamen Riders have gear that enhance their physical senses ranging from eyesight enhancement to hearing enhancement)
Click to expand...
Regular Forms' abilities

Click to expand...
Ultimate Form's capability of using base forms' stuff

Enhanced Transformation (Kuuga can alternate to [...]Pegasus [...])
Click to expand...
Ultimate Form's capability of using rising forms' stuff

Enhanced Transformation (Kuuga can alternate to [...] Rising Pegasus [...])
Click to expand...

AND THE FACT ULTIMATE KUUGA HAS ALL OF THOSE ENHANCED
All previous abilities and resistances enhanced (Can produce all the weapons of the previous foms)
Click to expand...
It is absurdly clear that he can see her because that mf has literally super-super-super-super-super vision besides other senses
 
Idk what was discussed in the main thread or why this was made at all, I'm just here because I revised Kuuga in this website.

Either way, the abilities he gets from Ultimate Kuuga aren't passive sans the awareness he has with Pegasus. The super-sight isn't passive as Kuuga still needs to focus and find his target through his own perception/hearing before tracking them as what he does in the series. Daguva will go to the kill at the moment he perceives the presence of someone else. He unconsciously killed innocent denizens when he was burning Amazing Mighty and later killed 30,000 people with that same ignition by just standing at the middle of the city.
 
ZeedKZ said:
Daguva will go to the kill at the moment he perceives the presence of someone else.
Click to expand...
Why is it that despite all of the senses being enhanced over enhancements, i am to believe only vision has not been buffed enough for her to be perceivable?
Yeah there are some parts of what i indexed that indicate active usage instead of a passive one, but there are 3 of them (specifically KRPhysiology, Regular Forms and Ultimate form) who don't indicate any special activation for usage

Matter of fact there's one of them who ends all of this bs

A regular research can tell you that a regular human eye, considering a flat surface, 4 to 5km depending on some highly specific metrics
Let's assume a typical eye on the starting position would be able to see half of the lowest estimation, 2km

"Regular Forms" Kuuga tabber says:
Click to expand...
And "Ultimate Form" tabber says:
All previous abilities and resistances enhanced (Can produce all the weapons of the previous foms)
Click to expand...

Let's use the lowest of lower estimates and say that the scan's "several" is 2 dozens and the enhancement of Ultimate Form is 1.1x
Would still result on this guy being able to see 52,8km.

Let's say the starting position is completely unleveled and a normal person sees 500m at max, Ultimate Form gives no buff and he's only a literal dozen times better than a human being
That is still giving us 6km for his natural sight

Through the description of nothing active, just he being himself
His sight would cover more than the maximum SBA distance for them if they start at it
So he falls victim to the Disturbing Presence

And if not even that s* is enough I do not know what to say.
 
The vision is buffed though, however it is not something that Kuuga has passsively, he can see several kilometers ahead of him via Pegasus Form, but he still has to track his target through his enhanced perception and then to visualize him just like the clip I've attached above. In fact, he even needs Gouram (his stag beetle mecha) to fly across the city to see the monster he is tracking. The Pegasus Form was born out of the need of Kuuga to being able to perceive opponents way faster than what he can perceive (even with Dragon Form, his fastest form).

The KRP section is mostly to estabilish that Kamen Riders in general have something to give them enhanced senses, but the scale on how much they operate varies a lot from individual to individual. Either way, Daguva isn't a Kamen Rider so he doesn't get any of those, otherwise he would be a smurf.

I don't see why the "human regular eye" distance thing would help here. The human sight can indeed extend from a distance between 5 kilometers, but as long as it gazes horizontally, and we still can't distinguish any object from that distance. We can discern objects depending on their size and how much light they emit, which in that case, we can see a candle flame from a distance of 2.4 kilometers. We do not get enhanced senses because of that, and neither have a range of kilometers because of that because it is extremely conditional (otherwise Pegasus Form's existence would be pointless as Mighty Form would already be able to see those going by that logic), and none of the enhanced sight moments we get from Kamen Rider Kuuga indicate that he always uses the maximum of it (which is why he struggled a lot before Pegasus' debut only to struggle with even faster opponents later).

The point is, Pegasus Form is all about perception, he detects the movement and presence of his foe, and then concentrates to visually target it. Daguva (who is Kuuga's moral opposite) wouldn't need to see Liz because he would be aware of her presence before resorting to ignite anything within them.
 
ZeedKZ said:
The vision is buffed though, however it is not something that Kuuga has passsively
Click to expand...
That is quite literally contradicted by the profile and by the scan, who state he just has those stats better than humans in the Regular Form

ZeedKZ said:
Either way, Daguva isn't a Kamen Rider so he doesn't get any of those, otherwise he would be a smurf.
Click to expand...
Fortunately that wouldn't be much to think about as it was one of the least important buffs

ZeedKZ said:
I don't see why the "human regular eye" distance thing would help here.
Click to expand...
Because if a typical human in ideal conditions would be able to see quite a bit far and he's stated to be able to do "several dozen times better than a typical human", he should be able to see her just fine even at the top distance SBA mentions of 4km
Which is what i have been saying since before this thread was created

ZeedKZ said:
The point is, Pegasus Form is all about perception, he detects the movement and presence of his foe, and then concentrates to visually target it. Daguva (who is Kuuga's moral opposite) wouldn't need to see Liz because he would be aware of her presence before resorting to ignite anything within them.
Click to expand...
I get what you say but he wouldn't need Pegasus Form to see her as my latest argument bases itself on the passively better sight he has ever since his Regular Form.
I previously based myself on Pegasus Form stuff but that is no longer the basis of my claim he'd see her from the beginning.
 
Keep in mind that unlike Kuuga, Daguva doesn't need to transform into those respective forms to gain their passives since he's already in perfect form. Which means Mighty, Dragon, Pegasus and Titan form abilities are passive to him without any extra action beyond what Zeed said.
(Will respond soon)
 
Nonynho said:
That is quite literally contradicted by the profile and by the scan, who state he just has those stats better than humans in the Regular Form
Click to expand...
The profile nor the scan never estabilished those as passive either way.
Nonynho said:
Because if a typical human in ideal conditions would be able to see quite a bit far and he's stated to be able to do "several dozen times better than a typical human", he should be able to see her just fine even at the top distance SBA mentions of 4km
Which is what i have been saying since before this thread was created
Click to expand...
Except that not even Mighty Form could distinguish an object from that distance in the series without doing any effort, hence why Pegasus Form came to existence. He was constantly ambushed by Gurongi at longer-ranges, especially those who are able to fly or attack from a farther distance. Also visual acuity doesn't necessarily means he can see farther than the human eye, just that his vision is more clearer when it comes to distinguishing details at a standard distance.
Nonynho said:
I get what you say but he wouldn't need Pegasus Form to see her as my latest argument bases itself on the passively better sight he has ever since his Regular Form.
I previously based myself on Pegasus Form stuff but that is no longer the basis of my claim he'd see her from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he ain't seeing her from a distance of 4 km, much less in a place like New York.
 
ZeedKZ said:
The profile nor the scan never estabilished those as passive either way.
Click to expand...
It does, as the claim i bring up just says that Regular Form has better vision, no active usage of any sort of item

ZeedKZ said:
Also visual acuity doesn't necessarily means he can see farther than the human eye, just that his vision is more clearer when it comes to distinguishing details at a standard distance.
Click to expand...
Well, i didn't know that, but fortunately the statement doesn't come alone and with the other reinforcement we should still get the same result

Yusuke Godai inherited the transformation belt "Arcle" of "Kuuga," a legendary warrior of the ancient Rinto tribe, and was transformed by its mystical power. A superhuman with tens of times the athletic ability and super senses of a human, he makes full use of his physical abilities to punch, kick, and otherwise use his meatball attacks to confront the threat of the Gurongi, who have returned to the present day.
Click to expand...
 
Nonynho said:
Snip
Click to expand...

6b5.jpg


Firstly, having better eyesight just means he can see things sharper normally, like how people who wear glasses can see shit better. What you're trying to argue is that he has passive telescopic vision, to which you're busy here arguing with the guy who made the profile that he's doing it wrong or misinterpreting it. To clear it up, no he doesn't, and even with the stronger Pegasus forms, he still got to zoom in to focus on something, as per what Zeed has shown.

What you're basically bringing up here further supports this point.

Nonynho said:
we should still get the same result
Click to expand...
You're right about this in the way that Daguva just burns Elizabeth whole and kills her without ever needing to look at her. The very same thing I've been arguing from the start. No, gang. She doesn't get past Daguva in the list, gang.
 
Nonynho said:
It does, as the claim i bring up just says that Regular Form has better vision, no active usage of any sort of item
Click to expand...
Which... doesn't mean it is passive at all. And even it was, it barely covers the range he actually needs to perfectly distinguish something from several kilometers like Pegasus does (which surprise, it's not passive as seen in the series).
Nonynho said:
Well, i didn't know that, but fortunately the statement doesn't come alone and with the other reinforcement we should still get the same result
Click to expand...
Yeah, I put that scan there, this is quite you quoting Mighty Form's enhanced senses again.
 
ZeedKZ said:
Which... doesn't mean it is passive at all.
Click to expand...
Well, if there is a source basing "this form's senses are tens of times better than a regular human beings'" with nothing other than that, why would we assume it is not passive? And due to you saying time after time stuff about other forms, "because i who helped creating the profiles" is not going to cut it, sorry.

ZeedKZ said:
And even it was, it barely covers the range he actually needs to perfectly distinguish something from several kilometers
Click to expand...
by "barely" meaning "an adverb that means 'only just' or by the smallest possible margin.", you just said

And even it was, it covers the range he actually needs[...]
Click to expand...

Also, it is not needed to perfectly distinguish who or what he's looking at to start being subject to its effects
And she's approximating too, so because his senses are that good and because she's making it easier and easier to be seen, i once again say nothing indicates he will avoid being subject to Disturbing Presence

ZeedKZ said:
Yeah, I put that scan there, this is quite you quoting Mighty Form's enhanced senses again.
Click to expand...
By looking at how you put them there, there is 0 indication against N-Daguva-Zeba just having this due to having Kuuga's kit.


Shadowslash125 said:
What you're basically bringing up here further supports this point.
Click to expand...
Yeah? And how is that?
By the scan saying one of the forms - that has buffs after it - saying his senses are tens of times better with dozens of times the visual acuity, just saying "his senses are good" and nothing indicating they are due to a weapon like the pegasus form y'all keep mentioning?
"Your senses are good and your vision acuity even better" =/= "you are using an instrument to get better vision"
therefore
Regular (or Mighty as @ZeedKZ said it is)'s buffs to senses =/= Pegasus' buffs to senses

I am not speaking something ridiculous or hard to understand, i am not taking information that has other possible interpretations where a tool's assistance is plausible, i am not twisting what the profile says to my favor
i am reading what the material y'all indexed says and showing it is more than enough to prove he is going to see her.
I cannot comprehend what is problematic with what i'm saying
 
Since we're going back and forth i'll call a thread moderator here to assess whose side is more in tone with our rules
I'm not saying anyone here is breaking any rule, but we don't need to just "nuh uh" to each other for eternity
 
I think we can just vote for our corresponding side tbh.
So me Daguva, you Liz

(I voted, but waiting for your clarification)
 
Votes doesn't seem reasonable unfortunately, because either i am correct and this is a stomp for strange-name-fella, or by some miracle i can't comprehend, y'all are correct and this is a stomp for Liz
 
Nonynho said:
Votes doesn't seem reasonable unfortunately, because either i am correct and this is a stomp for strange-name-fella, or by some miracle i can't comprehend, y'all are correct and this is a stomp for Liz
Click to expand...
???
Isn't supposed to be vice-versa?
 
Shadowslash125 said:
???
Isn't supposed to be vice-versa?
Click to expand...
re-reading, maybe a change of wording would make myself understood yeah
But anyway, either side a is right and b is stomped or vice-versa, so votes seem like not really a solution today
 
So we wait for mod?
In the meantime, ignoring Liz's position, Daguva can now go through Mardicus and Sans with his funni tens of kilometers of TP. He loses to Gul'dan tho.
 
Shadowslash125 said:
In the meantime, ignoring Liz's position, Daguva can now go through Mardicus and Sans with his funni tens of kilometers of TP. He loses to Gul'dan tho.
Click to expand...
Liz should be higher than that anyway because (with equal speed) including Daguva, all who are not Ainz fall for Disturbing Presence, altering nothing for Daguva as i keep saying over and over
 
vsbattles.com

Armorchompy

vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Armorchompy answered me, so either we shorten the distance and one side stomps or keep it and the other side stomps

Can we agree to keep the same position, since the result should be incon, or something alike?
 
I really think i am correct but as our most reliable source possible says it ain't the case, i'm obliged to rest my case and we check what's the possible solution

edit: i am much obliged for you time(s) and sorry for bothering with my not-quite-good understanding of the matter at hand, and would like to reinforce such.
 
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Range is part of a characters power. Daguva stomping through range is a valid reason to consider him above Liz.
 
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