A Warlord vs a Hero (Star Wars vs Chainsaw Man) 10-7-0 (-GRACE-)

[MrSpockVulcan]

Grievous FRA

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

IDK how the 40x multiplier became a big point lol, but I think it's kind of a moot point

Like, let's just go by the logic that Grievous' armor is completely impenetrable. Even assuming Pochita can't damage Grievous with his chainsaws at all, his LS lets him easily pry open Grievous' armor and attack his organs, assuming he doesn't just snake a chain through the open points.

Grievous might have a skill advantage from his martial arts training but I think it's being a little oversold here: Pochita isn't a mindless monster, he does genuinely fight well and should have an experience advantage given that Pochita's been fighting devils in hell for at least 70ish years (since WW2 and CSM takes place in the late 1990s). If Pochita see's he cant damage Grievous through his armor at all, he's not just going to stay there and keep bashing himself against a brick wall. He has strategized on the fly before against very smart opponents like Makima

Yoru: im not stupid im not!!!

Grievous also wouldn't know that Pochita's heart specifically would be what he needs to take out to kill him, and Pochita has regenerated from having literally half of his body destroyed and being completed dismembered by the Accident Devil during the Yoru fight (ch216), so Grievous spinning his lightsabers wouldn't eliminate him either. Outside of that, what's stopping Pochita from just... stealing or destroying the lightsabers themselves? Without the lightsabers, Grievous might still have a physical AP advantage but it wouldn't not be nearly as deadly given that, again, Pochita has been ripped apart physically before with no issues and is used to fighting opponents that can tear through him easily. IDK what Grievous' CQC/H2H is like but again, being up close is a lot worse for Grievous than it is for Pochita.

Pochita could also just revive himself by pulling his cord; It's true that Devil regeneration is dependent on blood, but there's multiple examples of him being completely destroyed without needing blood, its only after prolonged fights where he's torn apart multiple times when he starts needing blood.

Grievous has to play it far safer in this matchup, whereas as Pochita sneaking a single chain onto him or prying open his armor with chainsaws are far more likely wincons

 

[GunshyFever]

I understand that FRA votes can count if they are agreeing with existing reasoning, but my issue is that the reasoning being FRA'd has already been directly addressed in my analysis and now by Ibuki as well. If someone still disagrees, that is fine, but then they should quote or respond to the specific part of my analysis they think is faulty. Otherwise the vote is relying on points that have already been countered rather than engaging with the current state of the debate.

I am also not saying people need to write an essay for every vote, just that if the main reasoning for a side has been rebutted, then continuing to FRA that same reasoning without addressing the rebuttal does not really establish that team Grevious has the better constructive arguments. If voters still think Grievous wins, I would like them to clarify which parts of the Pochita analysis they disagree with and why.

Else, this is another FRA Train. I just got back from exams, so any new points being brought up, I'll address it when I am ready. Just snip if from my analysis and we can debate from there.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Grievous FRA

 

[GunshyFever]

Just like that? Do I need to pull a Chariot?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Else, this is another FRA Train.

That's why I don't participate in vsthreads, unless Vader is there.

 

[GunshyFever]

That's why I don't participate in vsthreads, unless Vader is there.

What's worse is that I don't wanna be a bad omen and escalate it. But genuinely, nobody cares and are just blatantly FRA training without even trying to debate. We might honestly need a rule adjustment because this is a clear problem.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Grievous is 5 times stronger, has four sabers that can slice through an opponent like butter, is a massively more skilled fighter, and will probably aim for the heart because he's very lethal, and aiming for the heart to kill someone is common sense.

How come he doesn't have any win conditions?

 

[GunshyFever]

Who said that he did not have any wincons? All you really have to do is continue from Pochitas arguments and counters to Grevious by quoting it and responding to it, without nitpicking.

This tells me that you have not read through the thread and have no idea where the state of the debate is. Which proves the FRA Train even more.

Come on guys, it's a debating site, you really have me out here telling you that you have to read through the thread and actually keep up. That's how it usually works, I don't get why this is so much of a struggle here. Let us actually, discus this matchup, and debate a victor, yeah?

 

[NikHelton]

I understand that FRA votes can count if they are agreeing with existing reasoning, but my issue is that the reasoning being FRA'd has already been directly addressed in my analysis and now by Ibuki as well. If someone still disagrees, that is fine, but then they should quote or respond to the specific part of my analysis they think is faulty. Otherwise the vote is relying on points that have already been countered rather than engaging with the current state of the debate.

I am also not saying people need to write an essay for every vote, just that if the main reasoning for a side has been rebutted, then continuing to FRA that same reasoning without addressing the rebuttal does not really establish that team Grevious has the better constructive arguments. If voters still think Grievous wins, I would like them to clarify which parts of the Pochita analysis they disagree with and why.

Else, this is another FRA Train. I just got back from exams, so any new points being brought up, I'll address it when I am ready. Just snip if from my analysis and we can debate from there.

Sorox presented compelling arguments that challenged those in favor of Pochita.

LS don't matter if Grievous just needs to touch the chain with his lightsaber to destroy them. Fortunately, with his bladed arms, maintaining a brilliant defense is no problem.
Some said Pochita could destroy his lightsabers, but Grievous is a trophy fanatic and carries multiple lightsabers at once.
Grievous's fighting style is vastly superior to Pochita's. Needless to say, Pochita has been fighting for centuries. He literally uses his own version of Gear + Fa Jin, blitz opponents with speed and slashing them with chainsaws to defeat them.
He never encountered an opponent whose hard shell he couldn't penetrate. He's never truly tested his skills. Yes, the fight against Makima in the finale was good, but in the end, he was simply beaten.
Pochita will have to work very hard to inflict serious damage, and without at least comparable damage, he won't be able to crush him with Lightsaber, at most he'll try to hold him off.

Eventually, after a couple of minutes of fighting, Grievous will adapt to Pochita's fighting style, choose the right tactics, and crush him.

Grievous simply won't let him pull the trigger. He'll chop off his arms, legs, and head.

The people above have written some good arguments, and this topic is quite interestingly resolved. It's not worth saying that this is FRA training, especially when it was FRA training in the beginning, when people thought Pochita could withstand lightsabers and the stat difference.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Who said that he did not have any wincons? All you really have to do is continue from Pochitas arguments and counters to Grevious by quoting it and responding to it, without nitpicking.

This tells me that you have not read through the thread and have no idea where the state of the debate is. Which proves the FRA Train even more.

Come on guys, it's a debating site, you really have me out here telling you that you have to read through the thread and actually keep up. That's how it usually works, I don't get why this is so much of a struggle here. Let us actually, discus this matchup, and debate a victor, yeah?

If it's already been proven that the guy has win conditions, then people will vote for whoever they think has the most convincing win condition. It's simple, are you going to refute Grievous's win conditions or are you just going to complain about the votes?

 

[NikHelton]

Who said that he did not have any wincons? All you really have to do is continue from Pochitas arguments and counters to Grevious by quoting it and responding to it, without nitpicking.

This tells me that you have not read through the thread and have no idea where the state of the debate is. Which proves the FRA Train even more.

Come on guys, it's a debating site, you really have me out here telling you that you have to read through the thread and actually keep up. That's how it usually works, I don't get why this is so much of a struggle here. Let us actually, discus this matchup, and debate a victor, yeah?

Bro, let's face it.

The first votes for Pochita were:

1) "I think he'll win because of the regen, although his blitz tactics won't work."
2) "Vote for Pochita."
3) "Pochita FRA."
4) "Eh, vote for Pochita."
5) "I can't think of a joke. Pochita FRA"

That's exactly what the FRA train is. While Ibuki wrote the argument, the others simply voted

Then I wrote a short argument, Ruby wrote his arguments and position. My buddy Darth came and wrote a compelling argument. This convinced one guy to retract his vote from Pochita and convinced my bro Doggo to vote for Grievous. Then two people just upvoted him. Do you see what I'm getting at?

You had two people making arguments, and then four people started an FRA train. Three of us argued, which convinced one of yours, and only two people silently voted for Grievous. And then another guy wrote arguments.

Blaming the Grievous side in the FRA train and saying we're not debating is simply pointless.

 

[DarkLock92]

Yeah I'm gonna vote Grievous fra. Should have given this more thought, that's on me

 

[MochOath]

FRA FRA fr

 

[NikHelton]

FRA FRA fr

MochOath FRA

 

[GunshyFever]

Sorox presented compelling arguments that challenged those in favor of Pochita.

That's not accurate in the slightest. Sorox did bring up arguments for Grievous, but most of what he brought up was either already acknowledged in my original analysis as Grievous's win cons or it focused on one specific part of my argument, mainly the 40x contact-area point, while ignoring the rest of Pochita's actual win con/kit package package.

My analysis already accepted that Grievous has the AP advantage, better stated skill, four lightsabers, superior weapon training and the ability to cut Pochita's chains. That was never ignored. The issue is that those points do not automatically invalidate Pochita's counters, such as his regeneration, superior LS, chain mobility, multiple angle restraints and attack capabilities, ability to engage while and even after being damaged, and the fact that Grievous has to consistently prevent recovery while Pochita only needs one good opening.

The main question is which parts of Sorox's post actually survive the counters that were already made. If the answer is just "Grievous is stronger, more skilled and has lightsabers" then that is not new. Those points were already factored into my analysis.

If people want to vote based on Sorox's reasoning, that is invalid, they should specify which part of my Pochita analysis they believe is false and why. Otherwise, the vote is still relying on general Grievous win cons that were already addressed rather than engaging with the current state of the debate, which is a blatant definition of an FRA Train.

LS don't matter if Grievous just needs to touch the chain with his lightsaber to destroy them. Fortunately, with his bladed arms, maintaining a brilliant defense is no problem.
Some said Pochita could destroy his lightsabers, but Grievous is a trophy fanatic and carries multiple lightsabers at once.
Grievous's fighting style is vastly superior to Pochita's. Needless to say, Pochita has been fighting for centuries. He literally uses his own version of Gear + Fa Jin, blitz opponents with speed and slashing them with chainsaws to defeat them.
He never encountered an opponent whose hard shell he couldn't penetrate. He's never truly tested his skills. Yes, the fight against Makima in the finale was good, but in the end, he was simply beaten.
Pochita will have to work very hard to inflict serious damage, and without at least comparable damage, he won't be able to crush him with Lightsaber, at most he'll try to hold him off.

Eventually, after a couple of minutes of fighting, Grievous will adapt to Pochita's fighting style, choose the right tactics, and crush him.

Grievous simply won't let him pull the trigger. He'll chop off his arms, legs, and head.

The people above have written some good arguments, and this topic is quite interestingly resolved. It's not worth saying that this is FRA training, especially when it was FRA training in the beginning, when people thought Pochita could withstand lightsabers and the stat difference.

I think this is exactly the issue I am pointing out. A lot of this is just restating Grievous's win cons without actually answering Pochita's counters. All of this was discussed and countered, if you want to refute it, snip the message and respond instead of re-stating your point which was already discussed.

If it's already been proven that the guy has win conditions, then people will vote for whoever they think has the most convincing win condition. It's simple, are you going to refute Grievous's win conditions or are you just going to complain about the votes?

Yes I definitely can considering it's an FRA train for a reason that was completely debunks as unlikely and illogical.

Bro, let's face it.

The first votes for Pochita were:

1) "I think he'll win because of the regen, although his blitz tactics won't work."
2) "Vote for Pochita."
3) "Pochita FRA."
4) "Eh, vote for Pochita."
5) "I can't think of a joke. Pochita FRA"

That's exactly what the FRA train is. While Ibuki wrote the argument, the others simply voted

Then I wrote a short argument, Ruby wrote his arguments and position. My buddy Darth came and wrote a compelling argument. This convinced one guy to retract his vote from Pochita and convinced my bro Doggo to vote for Grievous. Then two people just upvoted him. Do you see what I'm getting at?

You had two people making arguments, and then four people started an FRA train. Three of us argued, which convinced one of yours, and only two people silently voted for Grievous. And then another guy wrote arguments.

Blaming the Grievous side in the FRA train and saying we're not debating is simply pointless.

I am not saying the Grievous side has made zero arguments. Obviously, Sorox, Ruby and others gave arguments. My issue is that a lot of the later votes are still relying on reasoning that has already been directly addressed while not engaging with the counters.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I understand Gunshy’s point, but the concept of a weapon with a limited contact area only provides an unclear advantage, not a 40x multiplier. Imagine an 8-A guy with AP of 100 tons of TNT using an obsidian knife whose blade is 3 nanometers thick, or 3×10^−7 cm. Using the same analogy comparing a punch to a knife tip, the knife’s AP would be 333 megatons. That means a dude at baseline 8-A with a knife that thin could slice apart a guy who can survive the explosion of 7 Tsar Bombas simultaneously, get it?

The knife isn't treated as having higher AP. Everyone keeps saying this. The knife has the AP of the user, all it does is exert energy over a much smaller area. Which the wiki DOES count as dura neg (Unless you disagree with molecular or atomic thin blades dura negging people too).

There's also an issue here of you not showing any math so I'm unsure how accurate this methodology is, but tbh I could believe it since the consensus on the wiki for when normal bullets stop being effective is when a character is 9-A or higher. And that's with a far larger surface area and far less energy (9-C KE). So an 8-A character using a weapon with significantly less area would indeed allow them to mitigate exponentially more durability

Now this doesn't mean I'm voting for Pochita, I'm just clarifying the effectiveness of cutting attacks.

 

[GunshyFever]

I do not know if this is a Star Wars fandom thing, because I had a similar issue in the thread with Darth Vader, but I let that slide because it was actually much closer and more controversial. But now I am thinking there are definitely some FRA train issues.

I kind of just want to debate this matchup in question, but I am going in circles because points are being remade while literally ignoring everything Ibuki and I stated. So there is no real debate here. Everyone is just turning a blind eye and doing lazy voting. I don't like it one bit.

And when I point it out everyone scoots away instead of actually addressing the cat in the hat.

 

[DarkLock92]

The knife isn't treated as having higher AP. Everyone keeps saying this. The knife has the AP of the user, all it does is exert energy over a much smaller area. Which the wiki DOES count as dura neg (Unless you disagree with molecular or atomic thin blades dura negging people too).

There's also an issue here of you not showing any math so I'm unsure how accurate this methodology is, but tbh I could believe it since the consensus on the wiki for when normal bullets stop being effective is when a character is 9-A or higher. And that's with a far larger surface area and far less energy (9-C KE). So an 8-A character using a weapon with significantly less area would indeed allow them to mitigate exponentially more durability

Now this doesn't mean I'm voting for Pochita, I'm just clarifying the effectiveness of cutting attacks.

Does this apply against armoured opponents? Armor is often meant to protect against slicing weapons.

 

[NikHelton]

I am not saying the Grievous side has made zero arguments. Obviously, Sorox, Ruby and others gave arguments. My issue is that a lot of the later votes are still relying on reasoning that has already been directly addressed while not engaging with the counters.

As Darth wrote, this only provides an abstract advantage. However, specific numbers still matter more.

It's akin to a speed amp. If we have two characters, the first with Mach 5 and the second with Mach 1, but with three Blitz Amps, the first will still be faster.

Furthermore, the chainsaw's advantage will now be negated by Grievous's steel armor, which protects against piercing attacks. You might be tempted to say that the chainsaw's limited range would allow it to easily cut through his armor, but that would only be true if their AP were equal.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Does this apply against armoured opponents? Armor is often meant to protect against slicing weapons.

If the armor has feats of being resistant to cutting damage on their level of AP, sure, why not. I mentioned that before.

It's akin to a speed amp. If we have two characters, the first with Mach 5 and the second with Mach 1, but with three Blitz Amps, the first will still be faster.

Actually this is untrue. There have been various matches as of late where massive speedblitz amps allow someone to become faster than someone with a higher speed value. All that needs to be taken into consideration is common sense. Using your example, if a person has a speed blitz amp that allows them to run across the earth 10 times and throw 50 trillion punches at someone who was previously equal to them before they could perceive it, that speed amp would obviously make them faster than someone only 5x faster. Even if the multiplier for the speed amp isn't given.

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

I'll respond in a moment. But can you actually snip the counter your talking about, or just snip and address them all.

Your nitpicking alot which is gonna cause our debate to be cluttered and messy. So try responding to everything so we can actually move with purpose.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

The AP gap is somewhat big? (is it?), but it is not a stomp gap like the 8x required. Grievous is around 5x stronger, but Pochita is also listed as higher with his chainsaws and his damage is slicing and cutting based (which you can actually calc). Cutting attacks are naturally better at focusing force into a much smaller area than blunt attacks. For example, even if one character has 5x more durability, a cutting edge applying force over something like 1/50th or 1/100th of the contact area can create far higher pressure at the point of contact. So like the example I used in that thread, you can have Generals durability up to 40x weaker than Pochita's chainsaws.

None of these calculations are in his profile, so it's not usable.

Pochita's mobility is also too good not to be talked about. Speed is equalized but Pochita can boost his speed using his chains and slingshot himself off various objects and such. That gives him a movement and positioning advantage by lettinf him maneuver around the battlefield, and along with that he can flash step around in different angles to build momentum to deliver devastating K.E. attacks like a high-speed kick or chainsaw rush if he pleased.

The biggest issue for Grievous for me is that he has to play this almost perfectly. He can cut the chains but as Ibuki mentioned, Pochita is not limited to just four chainsaws and the chains can come from multiple angles or be used during direct clashes. A common example is them coming from his feet. If he gets Grievous tied up, Pochita's massive LS advantage can let him reel him in and slice him apart. Not to mention he can burrow them underground for surprise attacks and catch him off guard as well.

Grievous fights people far more skilled than Kanan, who can block hundreds of shots at once; I don't think he'll have trouble cutting a few chains.

The heart and starter argument also does not convince me as a good Grievous win con either, since Pochita's heart is not some fragile weak point that gets tapped and instantly loses. It has already taken ridiculous punishment before, like Yoru slicing his heart just for him to put himself back together easily.

Pochita also has a habit of pulling his chord before or during fatal situations (example above) and even if his arms are damaged, that does not automatically stop him from revving because he can use his teeth or other methods to activate it. More importantly Pochita is still a Devil, and Devils can regenerate through blood and by repurposing the blood already in their bodies. His profile already notes that he can regenerate from just a heart without external blood consumption. So Grievous simply slicing him up is kind of extremely generous to me. Then you have the "Pochita begged for blood" point which also kinda sucks. Sinnce in that situation he was low on blood and was not seriously trying to fight Yoru in the first place. Clearly not demonstrating that he is helpless every time he takes damage. Pochita needing blood when badly drained does not erase the fact that his regen and ability to get back up are repeatedly emphasized, so that is incredibly weak.

All in all, Grievous's skill and four armed lightsabers let him fatally damage Pochita. But Pochita can afford mistakes far better than Grievous can. If Grievous lands hits, Pochita can regenerate and keep fighting even while being torn apart. And using Ibuki's argument again, if Pochita lands a chainsaw hug, Grievous is pretty much finished because his internals are vulnerable if his chest cavity is opened and he does not have regen like Pochita to help with that.

A lightsaber slash will completely disintegrate his heart.

 

[NikHelton]

I do not know if this is a Star Wars fandom thing, because I had a similar issue in the thread with Darth Vader, but I let that slide because it was actually much closer and more controversial. But now I am thinking there are definitely some FRA train issues.

I kind of just want to debate this matchup in question, but I am going in circles because points are being remade while literally ignoring everything Ibuki and I stated. So there is no real debate here. Everyone is just turning a blind eye and doing lazy voting. I don't like it one bit.

And when I point it out everyone scoots away instead of actually addressing the cat in the hat.

The LS argument has been refuted. Pochita simply can't use chains effectively. Chains evaporate upon contact with the blade due to heat and AP.

The argument about equal skill has been refuted. Pochita isn't even close to his skill level. Furthermore, Grievous knows a variety of styles, is far more adaptable in combat, and adapts quickly.

The chainsaw argument has been refuted. Lightsabers will destroy them on contact. Grievous's hard armor makes him resistant to standard cuts, and the difference in his durability and Pochita's striking strength, which is five times greater, prevents the Hero of Hell from inflicting as much damage as you might imagine.

Mobility doesn't matter when Pochita needs to get in close for contact; his opponent has four rotating limbs that will kill him with a single strike. Furthermore, Grievous himself is highly mobile and can move along vertical surfaces and ceilings.

The regeneration argument was challenged. Grievous sees Pochita pull the starter, add two plus two, and destroy the demon's heart. Without access to the starter and blood, Pochita will be cooked. Incidentally, in the shot where Pochita regenerated, being torn apart and cut in half, the concept of death no longer existed. This explains his survival.

Good luck with Pochita's grappling of Grievous when he transforms him into Anakin after the battle with Kenobi on Mustafar with every blow.

 

[NikHelton]

If the armor has feats of being resistant to cutting damage on their level of AP, sure, why not. I mentioned that before.

Actually this is untrue. There have been various matches as of late where massive speedblitz amps allow someone to become faster than someone with a higher speed value. All that needs to be taken into consideration is common sense. Using your example, if a person has a speed blitz amp that allows them to run across the earth 10 times and throw 50 trillion punches at someone who was previously equal to them before they could perceive it, that speed amp would obviously make them faster than someone only 5x faster. Even if the multiplier for the speed amp isn't given.

I checked with the moderators about this. So, if one character has a 4x boost, and the other has a teleportation boost for a superior character, the former will be faster.
Just like an AP boost at the one-shot level doesn't compensate for the 5x AP difference.

 

[NikHelton]

I'll respond in a moment. But can you actually snip the counter your talking about, or just snip and address them all.

Your nitpicking alot which is gonna cause our debate to be cluttered and messy. So try responding to everything so we can actually move with purpose.

No, there are enough arguments above that thoroughly challenge your position.
You and I simply have different opinions.
We've both expressed our points of view, and now people, after reading the arguments, are making their choice.

It's like arguing whether a sword or a halberd is superior. I've presented arguments in favor of the halberd and say it's superior. You've presented arguments in favor of the sword and say it's superior.

We don't necessarily have to force one of us to admit that their weapon is inferior. Both sides of the debate have presented their arguments. The other people on the third side choose the side that convinced them most.

You can write another argument in response to me, Sorox, and Ruby. Perhaps your takes will convince people to change their votes. At least we did that on the first page and tipped the scales in Grievous' favor.

 

[GunshyFever]

None of these calculations are in his profile, so it's not usable.

It's not a calculation. I'll just refer you to what Laser said here.

Because piercing damage doesn't exceed your own ap. It's the same ap. It's just acting on a less durable area. This is precisely why I mentioned this:

It's dependent on the ENEMY's durability over a smaller area. Not your AP. If Grievous has feats of shrugging off slicing attacks from someone comparable to him then he no diffs Pochita's saws. It's that simple. Cutting/Piercing attacks don't upscale, they exploit a weaker area of the opponent. There's a difference. You wouldn't write "higher with piercing damage" because the energy of the attack is the exact same (Or it could be even less). Hence why it's redundant to write it down in the AP section (Writing it under limited durability negation would be fine imo tho)

Grievous fights people far more skilled than Kanan, who can block hundreds of shots at once; I don't think he'll have trouble cutting a few chains.

Sure, I mention he was more skilled than Pochita with his sabers. This does not really address the text you quoted in question.

A lightsaber slash will completely disintegrate his heart.

Pochita's regeneration revolves around his body, not his heart. Stop confusing Denji's weakness for Pochita's. Infact, in the very text you quoted, showed Pochita's heart being destroyed why a weapon larger than it.

Snip

Again, restating yourself, I'll just bold the arguments you have to refute to make it easier on yourself.

Aye, so for this one, similarly to the Vader match you might know who I believe wins but I am honestly going to try to be as unbiased as possible and show things how I see them as I usually do.

Starting with Grievous's kit and win cons, he has the AP advantage by about 5x, the better stated skill, four arms with lightsabers, superior weapon training (he is likely better with lightsabers than Pochita is with chainsaws). Those lightsabers are also fatal to Pochita's body if they land a clean hit. If Grievous can consistently cut Pochita apart and prevent him from re-engaging, then he can win. His ability to slice through Pochita's chains with lightsabers is also a fair counter, I do not think Pochita's chains are an unstoppable force or anything.

Then this is where I state that I think Pochita's kit and win cons are better.

The AP gap is somewhat big? (is it?), but it is not a stomp gap like the 8x required. Grievous is around 5x stronger, but Pochita is also listed as higher with his chainsaws and his damage is slicing and cutting based (which you can actually calc). Cutting attacks are naturally better at focusing force into a much smaller area than blunt attacks. For example, even if one character has 5x more durability, a cutting edge applying force over something like 1/50th or 1/100th of the contact area can create far higher pressure at the point of contact. So like the example I used in that thread, you can have Generals durability up to 40x weaker than Pochita's chainsaws.

Pochita's mobility is also too good not to be talked about. Speed is equalized but Pochita can boost his speed using his chains and slingshot himself off various objects and such. That gives him a movement and positioning advantage by lettinf him maneuver around the battlefield, and along with that he can flash step around in different angles to build momentum to deliver devastating K.E. attacks like a high-speed kick or chainsaw rush if he pleased.

The biggest issue for Grievous for me is that he has to play this almost perfectly. He can cut the chains but as Ibuki mentioned, Pochita is not limited to just four chainsaws and the chains can come from multiple angles or be used during direct clashes. A common example is them coming from his feet. If he gets Grievous tied up, Pochita's massive LS advantage can let him reel him in and slice him apart. Not to mention he can burrow them underground for surprise attacks and catch him off guard as well.

The heart and starter argument also does not convince me as a good Grievous win con either, since Pochita's heart is not some fragile weak point that gets tapped and instantly loses. It has already taken ridiculous punishment before, like Yoru slicing his heart just for him to put himself back together easily.

Pochita also has a habit of pulling his chord before or during fatal situations (example above) and even if his arms are damaged, that does not automatically stop him from revving because he can use his teeth or other methods to activate it. More importantly Pochita is still a Devil, and Devils can regenerate through blood and by repurposing the blood already in their bodies. His profile already notes that he can regenerate from just a heart without external blood consumption. So Grievous simply slicing him up is kind of extremely generous to me. Then you have the "Pochita begged for blood" point which also kinda sucks. Sinnce in that situation he was low on blood and was not seriously trying to fight Yoru in the first place. Clearly not demonstrating that he is helpless every time he takes damage. Pochita needing blood when badly drained does not erase the fact that his regen and ability to get back up are repeatedly emphasized, so that is incredibly weak.

All in all, Grievous's skill and four armed lightsabers let him fatally damage Pochita. But Pochita can afford mistakes far better than Grievous can. If Grievous lands hits, Pochita can regenerate and keep fighting even while being torn apart. And using Ibuki's argument again, if Pochita lands a chainsaw hug, Grievous is pretty much finished because his internals are vulnerable if his chest cavity is opened and he does not have regen like Pochita to help with that.

So from my analysis here, I think Grievous has the better stated skill and AP, but Pochita has better survivability, far superior LS, more forgiving win cons, far better mobility, better ranged and restraint options chainsaws that can close the AP/durability gap and all of Denji's abilities including his instinctive action. Grievous has to keep cutting him apart and stop his recovery consistently while Pochita only needs one good chain catch or close range exchange to win.

Imo Pochita wins 9/10 times here. There is very little Grievous can do here in all honesty and his win cons are extremely generous compared to what Pochita has. At best you can argue that he outlasts upclose and takes Pochita in every encounter which is just not happening because of Pochita's kit, not a stomp but not close either.

IDK how the 40x multiplier became a big point lol, but I think it's kind of a moot point

Like, let's just go by the logic that Grievous' armor is completely impenetrable. Even assuming Pochita can't damage Grievous with his chainsaws at all, his LS lets him easily pry open Grievous' armor and attack his organs, assuming he doesn't just snake a chain through the open points.

Grievous might have a skill advantage from his martial arts training but I think it's being a little oversold here: Pochita isn't a mindless monster, he does genuinely fight well and should have an experience advantage given that Pochita's been fighting devils in hell for at least 70ish years (since WW2 and CSM takes place in the late 1990s). If Pochita see's he cant damage Grievous through his armor at all, he's not just going to stay there and keep bashing himself against a brick wall. He has strategized on the fly before against very smart opponents like Makima

Yoru: im not stupid im not!!!

Grievous also wouldn't know that Pochita's heart specifically would be what he needs to take out to kill him, and Pochita has regenerated from having literally half of his body destroyed and being completed dismembered by the Accident Devil during the Yoru fight (ch216), so Grievous spinning his lightsabers wouldn't eliminate him either. Outside of that, what's stopping Pochita from just... stealing or destroying the lightsabers themselves? Without the lightsabers, Grievous might still have a physical AP advantage but it wouldn't not be nearly as deadly given that, again, Pochita has been ripped apart physically before with no issues and is used to fighting opponents that can tear through him easily. IDK what Grievous' CQC/H2H is like but again, being up close is a lot worse for Grievous than it is for Pochita.

Pochita could also just revive himself by pulling his cord; It's true that Devil regeneration is dependent on blood, but there's multiple examples of him being completely destroyed without needing blood, its only after prolonged fights where he's torn apart multiple times when he starts needing blood.

Grievous has to play it far safer in this matchup, whereas as Pochita sneaking a single chain onto him or prying open his armor with chainsaws are far more likely wincons

I hope this can help you with your responses so we can stop going circular here.

 

[NikHelton]

LS won't let you crush someone if your stats aren't comparable

 

[GunshyFever]

It's a 5x difference and regardless, the chainsaws (with the limited dura neg being able to get to General at the very least) are doing the job anyway.

However, I will admit here that I feel like I am fighting too hard for a debate, and I am not having as much fun as I usually do. I think it would be best if I just left this match alone. The analysis remains there, but I do not really like this messy, cluttered debating style with a side of FRA trains and unspoken reasoning. I do not (think) I have OCD, but having an unorderly debate makes me confused and anxious.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I do not (think) I have OCD, but having an unorderly debate makes me confused and anxious.

What about with Gojo Vs Makima

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

It's not a calculation. I'll just refer you to what Laser said here.

So tell me, where's the "7A with chainsaws" in his profile that would allow him to cut someone with 40 times the strength of Grievous? Oh yeah, he doesn't have it.

Sure, I mention he was more skilled than Pochita with his sabers. This does not really address the text you quoted in question.

My friend, Kanan had hundreds of people shooting at him at the same time and he blocked all the shots. Grievous faces people who could destroy this guy in a fight.

He won't be caught off guard by those chains.

Pochita's regeneration revolves around his body, not his heart. Stop confusing Denji's weakness for Pochita's. Infact, in the very text you quoted, showed Pochita's heart being destroyed why a weapon larger than it.

He is still being sliced into pieces rapidly, and his profile says that being reduced to a heart is his limit.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I checked with the moderators about this. So, if one character has a 4x boost, and the other has a teleportation boost for a superior character, the former will be faster.
Just like an AP boost at the one-shot level doesn't compensate for the 5x AP difference.

What mod? Cuz that just outright doesn't make sense.

 

[LaserPrecision]

So tell me, where's the "7A with chainsaws" in his profile that would allow him to cut someone with 40 times the strength of Grievous? Oh yeah, he doesn't have it.

Why do people keep saying this, I've said it three times at least by now that cutting attacks aren't increased ap

 

[GunshyFever]

What about with Gojo Vs Makima

I was keeping up for the most part and we were debating off a template. At the time, there were already a lot of people and the match was close, so either side could have been valid. So for me that one does not count. Here, I am just having to respond to wall text or nitpicked arguments just to change nobody's mind about the debate, which is the entire point. It is also the fact that points are being repeated and I do not think the debate here is constructive at all. We were at least moving with Gojo vs Makima and all the rest. That was one of my most lively threads. I had tons of fun. Can't say the same here.

So tell me, where's the "7A with chainsaws" in his profile that would allow him to cut someone with 40 times the strength of Grievous? Oh yeah, he doesn't have it.

What are you talking about? that is not what they stated.

My friend, Kanan had hundreds of people shooting at him at the same time and he blocked all the shots. Grievous faces people who could destroy this guy in a fight.

He won't be caught off guard by those chains.

And Pochita fights armies of devils simultaneously. I dont really care about the hype and aura movements for either characters. I am asking for a debate.

He is still being sliced into pieces rapidly, and his profile says that being reduced to a heart is his limit.

Where?

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Why do people keep saying this, I've said it three times at least by now that cutting attacks aren't increased ap

Because unless he has "7A with chainsaws," Grievous is going to tank that shit.

 

[GunshyFever]

 

[NikHelton]

What mod? Cuz that just outright doesn't make sense.

Honestly, I can't answer that. It was during the first Kaneki vs Muzan matches.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Honestly, I'm tired of repeating the same things. I've already argued why he can withstand the chainsaws, why he wouldn't be caught off guard or overwhelmed by the chains, and how he can bypass the regeneration, and nobody refutes these arguments.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because unless he has "7A with chainsaws," Grievous is going to tank that shit.

You don't get a higher rating for cutting weapons. Because the ap of the saws aren't higher than their ap. It scales to their ap. The way a chainsaw works (and any cutting weapon) is by attacking a WEAKER area of the opponent. It's the same way a human can survive a fall over their entire body surface area, but if that were concentrated into a punch you'd put a hole right through them. That doesn't mean the punch has higher ap than a leg sweep or tackle, etc. It just means the area they concentrated the energy into is weaker. If the character has no feats of having really high durability across a small surface area you can't say they would tank that no problem. Otherwise you could just as easily say a 5x difference in durability negates molecular or atomic, or even planck scale blades. But no one here would argue that would they? No because the wiki obviously acknowledges that as greatly mitigating durability.

Again, you don't rate people higher for piercing or cutting weapons, at most you add "limited durability negation" into powers and ability to let people know they have cutting attacks to mitigate durability (The same way internal attacks are listed as limited dura neg).

 

[Kellex]

Just like that? Do I need to pull a Chariot?

I know that this isn't directed at anyone, but I still feel like as if I'm being called out as the creator of Link VS Makima.