Ben 10: Mana page overheal and updates (Need staffs)

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I meant, Mana is manifestation of magic, true names was stated to be magic

No, magic is about knowing the true names of things.

It literally says Extraordinary Genius:

Yes, and Kevin can do that, but Gwen can not.

Also, Plumber tests also include repairing starship, an very-high technology.

Repairing is not creating.

So Vilgax would be at least Extraordinary Genius?

Based on the tech he's made, yes.

 

[Lort15]

Repairing is not creating.

shouldn't repairing high level techs also should scale their intelligence somehow? it's not like any average intelligent life form can repair such those high advanced technology why is it only limited to creating?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

shouldn't repairing high level techs also should scale their intelligence somehow? it's not like any average intelligent life form can repair such those high advanced technology why is it only limited to creating?

Genius is already for people with Superhuman Intelligence in certain areas. Knowing how to repair high-level tech would fall under Genius.

 

[Lort15]

Genius is already for people with Superhuman Intelligence in certain areas. Knowing how to repair high-level tech would fall under Genius.

alr, could you check your DM i have a special question

 

[Reiner04]

No, magic is about

Actually, True names are themselves magic in least. The magical words that Aggregor spoke to unlock the Door to Anywhere (per script) are themselves simply just True Names, nothing more. Charmcaster clarifies that Door only responds to places secret true name. The spellbook that Gwen stole from Hex's library contained the true name of Legerdomain which was changing every moment and all Gwen had to know is the True Name to get to the Legerdomain.

True Names are themselves power over named thing. Nothing additional is needed. Kevin threatens charmcaster that they know Charmcaster's true name. Charmcaster tells Michael her true name to show that she trust him, although Michael knew nothing about rune magic. Alpha Rune is the true name of magic itself, whoever holds it holds the power over magic itself. Again emphasised that just knowing the true names of things is enough to completely alter named thing.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Actually, True names are themselves magic in least. The magical words that Aggregor spoke to unlock the Door to Anywhere (per script) are themselves simply just True Names. Charmcaster clarifies that Door only responds to places secret true name. The spellbook that Gwen stole from Hex's library contained the true name of Legerdomain which was changing every moment and all Gwen had to know is that True Name to get to the Legerdomain.

True Names are themselves power over named thing. Nothing additional is needed. Kevin threatens charmcaster that they know Charmcaster's true name. Charmcaster tells Michael her true name to show that she trust him, although Michael knew nothing about rune magic. Alpha Rune is the true name of magic itself, whoever holds it holds the power over magic itself. Again emphasised that just knowing the true names of things is enough to completely alter named thing.

True Names grant power over a thing, and the act of doing so is called magic.

However, you still need to prove that mana are true names. We have seen things in Ben 10 that have had all their mana drained, or have no mana at all, and they still exist and have names, refuting the idea that mana are True Names/Concepts.

 

[Reiner04]

True Names grant power over a thing, and the act of doing so is called magic.

However, you still need to prove that mana are true names. We have seen things in Ben 10 that have had all their mana drained, or have no mana at all, and they still exist and have names, refuting the idea that mana are True Names/Concepts.

There is not really any direct correlation between Manna and True names. The direct correlation is between Magic and True names. Magic is just a type of Manna or just subset of Manna.

I don't think characters were ever out of their entire Manna (except once) since they can't live without Manna by definition of it. Manna is life energy as well as soul. Only time it was completely drained is when Charmcaster killed the Trio by completely absorbing their manna, down to their souls. Only species that lacks Manna are ectonurites but there is no explaination regarding their true names or if they even have it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

There is not really any direct correlation between Manna and True names. The direct correlation is between Magic and True names. Magic is just a type of Manna or just subset of Manna.

Well, the argument the OP is making is that Mana is Conceptual, meaning they're trying to equate Mana to True Names, which I'm stating there are no grounds for.

I don't think characters were ever out of their entire Manna (except once) since they can't live without Manna by definition of it. Manna is life energy as well as soul. Only time it was completely drained is when Charmcaster killed the Trio by completely absorbing their manna, down to their souls. Only species that lacks Manna are ectonurites but there is no explaination regarding their true names or if they even have it.

Which is why I was telling OP they need to remove Abstract Existence based on mana. If a Type 2 Concept vanishes, all things related to that concept should vanish as well. If they're trying to state that Mana is Conceptual, then lacking or being drained of mana should erase you from existence, not just kill you.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Well, the argument the OP is making is that Mana is Conceptual, meaning they're trying to equate Mana to True Names, which I'm stating there are no grounds for.

I try to say Nature of Mana is Mana are the substance of magic, as well as true name is magic. It's accept before
https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-conceptual-nature-of-mana.188364/
True Name=Magic - > Mana

Which is why I was telling OP they need to remove Abstract Existence based on mana. If a Type 2 Concept vanishes, all things related to that concept should vanish as well. If they're trying to state that Mana is Conceptual, then lacking or being drained of mana should erase you from existence, not just kill you.

No one in the verse has control over or has lost the concept of mana (except Alpha Rune). Ectonurites would gain immunity to the mana concept because they can still exist without mana, and if someone's mana were destroyed (not absorbed), it would be lost forever.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Yes, and Kevin can do that, but Gwen can not.

She can:

• Outperforming supercomputers: She even can combine her computer expertise with her knowledge of magic, as she was able to develop an algorithm to predict the next true name of Legerdomain. She can solve the calculus question to predict the next location of Dagon's teleporting shrine in 30 seconds. When she was kid, She always trying to think ahead and calculate the consequences, even as the voice of reason in team. When they were trapped in the Omnitrix and didn't know about it, she was able to know that they had teleported into another universe and understand how it worked.
• Executing complex strategies even under high pressure: When she was kid, she always trying to think ahead and calculate the consequences, she even devised a plan to stop the Megawatts by using the world's largest thermometer as a lightning rod to ground them (when Megawatts was destroy everything around them). And when they were fighting against the storm monster, Gwen was able to devise a plan to stop him by making Heatblast reach supernova-level heat in order to evaporate the entire being. Gwen is much smarter and more technically gifted than Ben, who has many feats of creating complex strategies even under high pressure.
• Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations: She was able to develop an algorithm to predict the next true name of Legerdomain. She can solve the calculus question to predict the next location of Dagon's teleporting shrine in 30 seconds.
• Plumber Training is a school to teach many things in the universe, such as superior combat skills and cultural sensitivity, interstellar laws, and weapons, tactics and even starship maintenance, and she was shown to be superior to Kevin (who is also considered one of the biggest experts in starships) in Plumber Training. Plumber tests is included recreating the Mark 12 Techadorian weapon, a weapon capable of delivering a maximum energy output of three petawatts.

Repairing is not creating.

It repairs complex ships that fly at FTL speeds.

Based on the tech he's made, yes.

Should be also add at least Genius for Ben?

 

[GeneralSol16]

Well, the argument the OP is making is that Mana is Conceptual, meaning they're trying to equate Mana to True Names, which I'm stating there are no grounds for.

Mana is the true names of everything, there's no such thing as Magic, only Mana.
Mana is what governs and powers the true names themselves.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I try to say Nature of Mana is Mana are the substance of magic, as well as true name is magic. It's accept before
https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-conceptual-nature-of-mana.188364/
True Name=Magic - > Mana

No one in the verse has control over or has lost the concept of mana (except Alpha Rune). Ectonurites would gain immunity to the mana concept because they can still exist without mana, and if someone's mana were destroyed (not absorbed), it would be lost forever.

None of this refutes what I'm saying. The very fact that things can exist without mana, or lose their mana and still exist, refutes the idea that mana and True Names are the same. Until I see proof showing otherwise, I disagree.

She can:

• Outperforming supercomputers: She even can combine her computer expertise with her knowledge of magic, as she was able to develop an algorithm to predict the next true name of Legerdomain. She can solve the calculus question to predict the next location of Dagon's teleporting shrine in 30 seconds. When she was kid, She always trying to think ahead and calculate the consequences, even as the voice of reason in team. When they were trapped in the Omnitrix and didn't know about it, she was able to know that they had teleported into another universe and understand how it worked.
• Executing complex strategies even under high pressure: When she was kid, she always trying to think ahead and calculate the consequences, she even devised a plan to stop the Megawatts by using the world's largest thermometer as a lightning rod to ground them (when Megawatts was destroy everything around them). And when they were fighting against the storm monster, Gwen was able to devise a plan to stop him by making Heatblast reach supernova-level heat in order to evaporate the entire being. Gwen is much smarter and more technically gifted than Ben, who has many feats of creating complex strategies even under high pressure.
• Accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations: She was able to develop an algorithm to predict the next true name of Legerdomain. She can solve the calculus question to predict the next location of Dagon's teleporting shrine in 30 seconds.
• Plumber Training is a school to teach many things in the universe, such as superior combat skills and cultural sensitivity, interstellar laws, and weapons, tactics and even starship maintenance, and she was shown to be superior to Kevin (who is also considered one of the biggest experts in starships) in Plumber Training. Plumber tests is included recreating the Mark 12 Techadorian weapon, a weapon capable of delivering a maximum energy output of three petawatts.

This is much better evidence, I agree now.

It repairs complex ships that fly at FTL speeds.

Not an Extraordinary Genius feat.

Should be also add at least Genius for Ben?

Sure

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

None of this refutes what I'm saying. The very fact that things can exist without mana, or lose their mana and still exist,

Gwen literally says if Ra'ad keep destroying Ben's life-energy/spirit, Ben itself would lost forever. Only beings in the universe don't have mana is Ghostfreak's race

When Vilgax was absorb Dagon's essence (mana), Dagon itself was also absorbed.

refutes the idea that mana and True Names are the same. Until I see proof showing otherwise, I disagree.

I don't say Mana and True Names are same, i said Mana is substance of true name

This is much better evidence, I agree now.

Not an Extraordinary Genius feat.

Sure

What about Rook? Are you also agree with it?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Gwen literally says if Ra'ad keep destroying Ben's life-energy/spirit, Ben itself would lost forever. Only beings in the universe don't have mana is Ghostfreak's race

Well, yeah, he's getting possessed.

When Vilgax was absorb Dagon's essence (mana), Dagon itself was also absorbed.

They refute this point directly in the video. Normally, it only absorbs power, but since Dagon is power, he himself was absorbed, which means that normally wouldn't happen.

I don't say Mana and True Names are same, i said Mana is substance of true name

Same issue either way.

What about Rook? Are you also agree with it?

I had no issues with Rook from the start.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Well, yeah, he's getting possessed.

It literally Ra'ad was destroying Ben's mana from inside.

Same issue either way.

We have same thing with Magic in GOW

But souls being reality-independent concepts isn't all that's established. That goes for magic itself, something we've established is a manifestation of the soul and life itself

Mana is manifestation of true names, which is Type 1 Concept, so mana should be same.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It literally Ra'ad was destroying Ben's mana from inside.

I'm not refuting that losing one's mana doesn't kill you; it's life force.

I'm refuting that it causes you to lose your True Name, a Type 2 Concept, which, if lost, should erase you.

I don't disagree that Magic allows you to have Conceptual Manipulation, I disagree that mana is what makes up true names, because there are too many anti-feats.

We have same thing with Magic in GOW

Mana is manifestation of true names, which is Type 1 Concept, so mana should be same.

This is whataboutism, and it isn't a valid argument since we're not talking about GoW.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I'm not refuting that losing one's mana doesn't kill you; it's life force.

I'm refuting that it causes you to lose your True Name, a Type 2 Concept, which, if lost, should erase you.

I don't disagree that Magic allows you to have Conceptual Manipulation, I disagree that mana is what makes up true names, because there are too many anti-feats.

Can you please give me anti-feats? There many examples of Mana makes up true names/magic/spells:

The connection between spells and magic, multiple instances have shown that spells are defined as magic words, but also visibly manifest as true names.

The connection between Magic and Mana can be seen in multiple instances, such as Mana is the substance of magic. It is stated that Gwen's magical abilities are actually her controlling an energy called “mana”. Stealing enemies' mana allows the user to harness their magic, and the term “Power-Draining” refers to taking mana from one's opponents. It is also stated that Magic is empowered by Mana.

When Addwaitya, a magic user, had his mana absorbed by Charmcaster's crystal, Ignaceous explained that this crystal are made for absorbing the magic within magic users, and Addwaitya proved this to be correct. And when Gwen transferred all the mana from Darkstar to Ledgerdomain, it also transferred his magical powers.

The same applies to spells and mana, as mana is channeled through spells and also powers them. Manipulating mana also manipulates spells and magic, as it is stated that Gwen's power such as spells come from mana. Even in Dagon's Dimension, Dagon's life force is his source of spells and powers, even stated to be his own power. One's powers and spells were empowered by life force from Dagon's heart. This would mean that Magic and Spells is but construct of Mana.

There is also evidence that an increase in someone's mana enhances magical powers and spells, as shown by Gwen's mana powers becoming more powerful, which enhances her blasts, which are stated to be “magical lasers”. The same applies to spells.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can you please give me anti-feats?

Any being that doesn't have mana, any instance of one losing all their mana, if it does not result in them vanishing, not dying, but vanishing from reality, then it's not a Type 2 Concept.

The connection between spells and magic, multiple instances have shown that spells are defined as magic words, but also visibly manifest as true names.

I already said Magic is the act of using the power of True Names, so this doesn't refute anything.

The connection between Magic and Mana can be seen in multiple instances, such as Mana is the substance of magic. It is stated that Gwen's magical abilities are actually her controlling an energy called “mana”. Stealing enemies' mana allows the user to harness their magic, and the term “Power-Draining” refers to taking mana from one's opponents. It is also stated that Magic is empowered by Mana.

Magic uses the power of True Names to perform feats; Magic has an energy cost, which is Mana.

When Addwaitya, a magic user, had his mana absorbed by Charmcaster's crystal, Ignaceous explained that this crystal are made for absorbing the magic within magic users, and Addwaitya proved this to be correct. And when Gwen transferred all the mana from Darkstar to Ledgerdomain, it also transferred his magical powers.

Confused on what this is arguing for.

Same for the rest, not really related to our discussion.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Any being that doesn't have mana, any instance of one losing all their mana, if it does not result in them vanishing, not dying, but vanishing from reality, then it's not a Type 2 Concept.

Ben was literally close to being lost forever, not dying, and when Kevin removed Ben from Ra'ad's body, Ben regained himself (his true form). If Ben was dying, he's mana would still exists like other, but Ben was vanishing from reality, and Ra'ad was replace Ben's mana with his own mana to make himself take control of his own body (Ra'ad's body), and remove Ben from it.

Ghostfreak's race is the same kind of non-living being that doesn't really have mana, but they still has concept of life not normal mana

I already said Magic is the act of using the power of True Names, so this doesn't refute anything.

It literally says spells is magic words like true name, i don't mean Magic=True Name, but connection between them

Magic uses the power of True Names to perform feats; Magic has an energy cost, which is Mana.

True Names stated to be "Magic Word" like Spells. Also Hex says true name of Legerdomain is spell

Confused on what this is arguing for.

It's for Mana, as it's absorb Mana, which is absorb Mana user powers (like spells and magic)

Same for the rest, not really related to our discussion.

It literally related, since Spells are true names

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Look, I'm not about to keep arguing back and forth. You can list me as disagreeing with Abstract Existence.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Look, I'm not about to keep arguing back and forth. You can list me as disagreeing with Abstract Existence.

I think we just need to remove nature of mana, since it's not standard abilities

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Any being that doesn't have mana, any instance of one losing all their mana, if it does not result in them vanishing, not dying, but vanishing from reality, then it's not a Type 2 Concept.

If WOG statements are allowed here, Derrick explained that Ectonurites do not lack the concept of life or mana. They are living beings with a completely different nature from most life forms. Their existence does not rely on a normal life-force like humans, which is why they may appear to lack life energy, but they actually possess mana in their own unique way, like it supported by:

• Zs'Skayr saying that he is "alive" again
• Their mind exists in DNA
• Ectonurite are living phantom.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Look, I'm not about to keep arguing back and forth. You can list me as disagreeing with Abstract Existence.

Hi can you please just give your input on these because i just add it to Alien Force profile after your vote
Equipments:

Plumber Suit:

• Flight & Size Manipulation (Plumber suit are made of a special material that conforms to fit any size person, and come with standard-issue rocket boots.)
• Electricity Manipulation & Durability Negation (Their Plumber suits can generate "neuroshock pulses" that can damage enemies without harming them.)

Grimoire

• Spell Manipulation (They have Gwen's spellbook, which allows them to use spells.)

Kevin's intelligence feats

He was able to make his machine separate Ben's essence from Ra'ad. He possesses combat skills. He made some changes to his and his teammates' Plumber suits that allow them to use "neuroshock pulses", electric blasts that can damage enemies without harming them.

Rook's intelligence feats

He made his weapon, called “the Proto-Tool”, which has multiple functions, such as a blaster, custom bow, net caster, missile launcher, power sword, grappler, sight, energy shackle, auto turret, energy shield, etc.

Gwen's intelligence feats

Stated to be the brain of team. She can solve the calculus question to predict the next location of Dagon's teleporting shrine in 30 seconds. When she was kid, she had a 4.2 GPA. She always trying to think ahead and calculate the consequences, even as the voice of reason in team. She devised a plan to stop the Megawatts by using the world's largest thermometer as a lightning rod to ground them. And when they were fighting against the storm monster, Gwen was able to devise a plan to stop him by making Heatblast reach supernova-level heat in order to evaporate the entire being. When they were trapped in the Omnitrix and didn't know about it, she was able to know that they had teleported into another universe and understand how it worked. She reads a lot of Mystery books, so she knows how to look for clues. Gwen is much smarter and technically gifted than Ben, especially with computers. She has great gymnastics and martial arts skills

Ben's intelligence feats

Outsmarted Darkstar. He possesses great combat skills after training with Gwen<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultimate-Rex1/Alien_Force#cite_note-Be-Knighted-19"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a>. He outsmarted Eon, who was able to trick Ultimate Ben 10,000. When he was a kid, he was able to figure out Dr. Animo's next location, which surprised Max and Gwen. He evaded both Vilgax and Kevin 11 for a long period of time in the Null Void after having access to the Omnitrix's Master Control for only one day<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultimate-Rex1/Alien_Force#cite_note-Back_With_a_Vengeance-20"><span>[</span>20<span>]</span></a>. Ben has impressive piloting skills, as shown when, at 10 years old, he was able to adequately control a gyropod within seconds of trying it<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultimate-Rex1/Alien_Force#cite_note-Secret_of_the_Omnitrix-21"><span>[</span>21<span>]</span></a>.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ability additions are fine, and adding more Intelligence Feats is fine as well.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[TheFoolKlien]

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

I agree with Spaceman here

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I agree with Spaceman here

I found that Chainsaw Man has the same thing, but it doesn't seem to count as anti-feat for Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

• Conceptual Manipulation & Existence Erasure (Type 2; Hybrids continued to persist even after their concept was erased from existence by the Chainsaw Devil who erases concepts from the past, the present and even from individuals' memories<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Devil_Physiology_(Chainsaw_Man)#cite_note-C87-50"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Devil_Physiology_(Chainsaw_Man)#cite_note-60"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a>)

Also Ben says Ghostfreak don't have body, should be count as he don't exist?

 

[Reiner04]

I found that Chainsaw Man has the same thing, but it doesn't seem to count as anti-feat for Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

Also Ben says Ghostfreak don't have body, should be count as he don't exist?

I think feat of someone's manna being erzsed/destroyed resulting in erasure of character is needed. Mana has never been erased in the series, at best absorded by someone else. For true names its fine as spaceman said.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I think feat of someone's manna being erzsed/destroyed resulting in erasure of character is needed. Mana has never been erased in the series, at best absorded by someone else. For true names its fine as spaceman said.

Beings can still produce mana even after they die, like Valadis. So they don't really losing concept of life, just their life-energy (this is why we don't add Conceptual Absorption for them)

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I've got terrible Internet connection so this comment might double post.

For number 3. I think adding a team profile is fine, and the intelligence ratings are okay (just remember to ad references please).

For number 2. I agree with the update, though I definitely need to check the scaling on my free time because I'm not sold on some of it but regardless, the calcs got accepted so sure.

For number 1. I really can't say much, I'm fine with the removals based on the new rule and lost scans but I don't really have the time or energy to deep dive into abstract existence and cm1. So whatever the other two staff members agreed on is whatever, I'm not going to hold up the thread, I simply agree with the removals and the other two sections.

 

[Nonynho]

He was able to convince Bellicus and Serena, which alternate version of Albedo could not do until after year.

He was able to rather quickly convince Bellicus and Serena, which an alternative version of Albedo couldn't do in a year.

How about it?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

How about it?

Sure

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

How about it?

Done

 

[Nonynho]

Sure

Done

• Haven't watched Ben 10 in 15+ years
• Proposes the literal smallest contribution the verse will ever see
• Gets approval by OP and an Admin in span of minutes

I love being a productive member of this community

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I'm not refuting that losing one's mana doesn't kill you; it's life force.

I'm refuting that it causes you to lose your True Name, a Type 2 Concept, which, if lost, should erase you.

I don't disagree that Magic allows you to have Conceptual Manipulation, I disagree that mana is what makes up true names, because there are too many anti-feats.

This is whataboutism, and it isn't a valid argument since we're not talking about GoW.

I've got terrible Internet connection so this comment might double post.

For number 3. I think adding a team profile is fine, and the intelligence ratings are okay (just remember to ad references please).

For number 2. I agree with the update, though I definitely need to check the scaling on my free time because I'm not sold on some of it but regardless, the calcs got accepted so sure.

For number 1. I really can't say much, I'm fine with the removals based on the new rule and lost scans but I don't really have the time or energy to deep dive into abstract existence and cm1. So whatever the other two staff members agreed on is whatever, I'm not going to hold up the thread, I simply agree with the removals and the other two sections.

I just realized that this is statement was from WOG

also created fastest car in the world

So I change it immediately and i hope you don't mind me asking for if you are fine with it

He created the Mark 10, equipped with various weapons, defense systems, voice commands, and a communication system.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I change it immediately and i hope you don't mind me asking for if you are fine with it

This is fine