Silver Surfer Page Update + 1A Energy Manipulation Rating

[Eseseso]

I think a bigger issue is scaling consistency, since these aren't feats normal SS can do so it would be "At peak" even if they were accepted.

But as for the issue of anti-feats:

1. The Power Cosmic comes from the 1-A Astral Plane

2. Silver Surfer was granted the Power Cosmic by Galactus, who is a balancing force between 1-A Abstracts Eternity and death.

I do plan on revising Surfer's scaling in the future, especially as he's literally stated repeatedly to be the greatest Herald of Galactus, so this thread might be better off closed for now.

Sorry, OP.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I think ObberGobb has somewhat of a point, but I'll remain neutral on this thread for now.

 

[Muteki616]

It can be included on the profile to some degree, just not as a rating of 1-A or higher.

That's fine.
But it can't be ignored that they can/could/do interact with 1-A. That's just how it is.

Then it js doesn’t meet the requirements?? Literally any other verse would get downgraded for this.

LMAO. When "Any other verse" is as legendary as Marvel we'll talk.
But they're not and i'm not gonna waste time with whataboutisms.
This logic can be applied to the 1-A tier period. The logic of the verse should supersede faux tiering definitions that change every few years.

I think a bigger issue is scaling consistency, since these aren't feats normal SS can do so it would be "At peak" even if they were accepted.

But as for the issue of anti-feats:

1. The Power Cosmic comes from the 1-A Astral Plane

2. Silver Surfer was granted the Power Cosmic by Galactus, who is a balancing force between 1-A Abstracts Eternity and death.

I do plan on revising Surfer's scaling in the future, especially as he's literally stated repeatedly to be the greatest Herald of Galactus, so this thread might be better off closed for now.

Sorry, OP.

Extra INFO to this
Iron Man in Iron Man (2020)# 12-13 gained power cosmic from the Taa II worldship and is 1-A on site.

 

[SuperNova55555]

But they're not

Mhm. Mhm.

 

[StrymULTRA]

LMAO. When "Any other verse" is as legendary as Marvel we'll talk.

So we just make excuses for a verse because you think it's the coolest shit ever?

The logic of the verse should supersede faux tiering definitions that change every few years.

Huh... the Tiering system is what allows these ratings to exist in the first place. If a verse can't adhere to the tier, then we just don't feature the verse here.

 

[Muteki616]

So we just make excuses for a verse because you think it's the coolest shit ever?

I never said Marvel was cool. I said it was legendary, and Marvel (by proxy DC) have various rules and scaling metrics that are accepted as exempt from the standard tiering system. "Make excuses" is an odd way to say "hungry for accuracy".

the Tiering system is what allows these ratings to exist in the first place. If a verse can't adhere to the tier, then we just don't feature the verse here.

No kidding.
"if the verse can't adhere to the tier [blah bblah] we just won't feature the verse here." is C A P. "We" changed the definition of Outerversal atleast 2-3 times in the last 5 years. The tier is made up ergo it can be bent and changed again to consider verse accuracy/logic rather than strictly philosophical logic.


Its just a little silly for something to mark all criteria for a tier just to be denied bc its interactions aren't "logical".

 

[Muteki616]

Cap's shield being a good example,
It has the feats and via Marvel's logic should/does defend Cap from 1-A energies and blows.
We don't accept it bc it's a 3-D shield (a 3-D FICTIONAL shield) seems backwards to the supposed "accuracy" staff members talk about.


I Agree with OP tho.
Atleast with Surfer's 1-A via Power Cosmic/Energy Manipulation.

 

[ObberGobb]

Personally I agree with the proposal. It seems very consistent for Silver Surfer to have feats scaling him to characters on that level.

I don't see why 1-A is a problem. Earth-616 is consistently 1-A. This tier of characters can consistently affect Earth-616. Ergo, these characters are 1-A.

 

[Agnaa]

That's fine.
But it can't be ignored that they can/could/do interact with 1-A. That's just how it is.

Then those "1-A characters" aren't actually 1-A.

We have to ignore one or the other.

Cap's shield being a good example,
It has the feats and via Marvel's logic should/does defend Cap from 1-A energies and blows.
We don't accept it bc it's a 3-D shield (a 3-D FICTIONAL shield) seems backwards to the supposed "accuracy" staff members talk about.


I Agree with OP tho.
Atleast with Surfer's 1-A via Power Cosmic/Energy Manipulation.

We can't give something the tier for "being completely unaccessible and uninteractible from anything below no matter how much of a power increase is given", if it contradicts those traits.

They can still be strong, a lot stronger than 3-D space, they just can't be at that tier.

Its just a little silly for something to mark all criteria for a tier just to be denied bc its interactions aren't "logical".

Those "illogical interactions" are ones that go against the fundamental criteria for the tier in the first place.

 

[ObberGobb]

Then those "1-A characters" aren't actually 1-A.

We have to ignore one or the other.

We can't give something the tier for "being completely unaccessible and uninteractible from anything below no matter how much of a power increase is given", if it contradicts those traits.

They can still be strong, a lot stronger than 3-D space, they just can't be at that tier.

Those "illogical interactions" are ones that go against the fundamental criteria for the tier in the first place.

But there are multiple parts of the cosmology that are accepted as 1-A under wiki standards, listed and explained on the cosmology blog, and these characters consistently scale to at least the Earth-616 reality (if not every reality). Are you suggesting that the cosmology isn't actually 1-A, or that characters shouldn't scale to it?

 

[Agnaa]

But there are multiple parts of the cosmology that are accepted as 1-A under wiki standards, listed and explained on the cosmology blog, and these characters consistently scale to at least the Earth-616 reality (if not every reality). Are you suggesting that the cosmology isn't actually 1-A, or that characters shouldn't scale to it?

Either or.

If you insist that the scaling is so consistent that it is completely unignorable, then the cosmology is not 1-A.

If you're willing to say that the scaling is less consistent than the scenes establishing the cosmology, then the characters don't scale.

 

[ObberGobb]

Either or.

If you insist that the scaling is so consistent that it is completely unignorable, then the cosmology is not 1-A.

If you're willing to say that the scaling is less consistent than the scenes establishing the cosmology, then the characters don't scale.

If this is the case, then every character Uni Abstract level and below might have to be downgraded to Low 1-A

 

[Osemere]

If this is the case, then every character Uni Abstract level and below might have to be downgraded to Low 1-A

IDK, I think the funniest thing is the entirety of all matter, density, mass, etc. in Marvel being composed of particles sourced from the literal highest cosmological layer which is like a hydrogen-bomb level anti-feat which everyone ignores for fun and giggles

 

[The_Impress]

what is da crux of the argument for this funny 1-A downgrade that will kill me with workload

 

[ObberGobb]

IDK, I think the funniest thing is the entirety of all matter, density, mass, etc. in Marvel being composed of particles sourced from the literal highest cosmological layer which is like a hydrogen-bomb level anti-feat which everyone ignores for fun and giggles

High 1-A regular human confirmed

 

[Hecky2222]

Either or.

If you insist that the scaling is so consistent that it is completely unignorable, then the cosmology is not 1-A.

Yeah but can't there be case where 1-A realm exists in Marvel, when reality(Supposedly 1-A realm character from Marvel) travels to fiction(Normal Universe), it will automatically decrease Qualitative Power it has, hence character when it enters isn't 1-A in stats, but when gets back character again 1-A stats in higher realm?

Or travelling in true form without to non 1-A is anti feat for cosmology as whole rather than characters just?(If there is no explanation for them decreasing powers or having avatars?)

 

[Osemere]

what is da crux of the argument for this funny 1-A downgrade that will kill me with workload

Tbh it is pretty inconsistent right now to block this simply because of the promise that we’ll fix it down the line because it’s irreparably broken in the present; Silver Surfer should just be 1-A based on the precedent we already (lazily) accept. Marvel’s tier 1 ratings mostly are inherited from before the tiering system change anyway.

 

[AyOgUyS]

IDK, I think the funniest thing is the entirety of all matter, density, mass, etc. in Marvel being composed of particles sourced from the literal highest cosmological layer which is like a hydrogen-bomb level anti-feat which everyone ignores for fun and giggles

I’m a bit confused. So: all matter in Marvel is made of these tiny particles that are apparently from the highest layer of the cosmology? Well that makes no sense at all. If we take this at face value then wouldn’t either the cosmology entirely be capped at Low 1-A or literally every character boosted to like High 1-A?

 

[ObberGobb]

what is da crux of the argument for this funny 1-A downgrade that will kill me with workload

The problem seems to be that the 1-A tier implies inaccessibility, but 1-A feats and scaling are VERY accessible in Marvel.

Like we have 1-A realms such as the Astral Realm, but there are tons of feats involving every plane of existence (which would include the Astral Realm) that should make the characters performing them 1-A.

The problem isn't necessarily that too many characters would end up at 1-A, but that the characters with these feats don't show the superiority over lower tiered characters as described in the tiering system ("residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures...transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness").

 

[Osemere]

I’m a bit confused. So: all matter in Marvel is made of these tiny particles that are apparently from the highest layer of the cosmology? Well that makes no sense at all. If we take this at face value then wouldn’t either the cosmology entirely be capped at Low 1-A or literally every character boosted to like High 1-A?

I mean, yeah, that’s the intuitive consequence, but having everything already made up of ‘H1-A particles’ would defeat them being H1-A through the definition requiring them being meta-qualitatively above anything else; that ‘anything’ is then already constructed by those supposed particles. Contradiction. So only Low 1-A would be available if this is taken seriously.

But at least, Ultima_Reality’s standard of this not being a weighing contest between feats vs. anti-feats and more one of narrative consistency is salient here. Marvel and DC’s abstract tiers feel very “1-A-y” even if technically nothing floating in the heads of any writer of either company is actually consistently identical with our definition of the tier. TBH, I would rather just go back to the levels of H1-A being arbitrarily stronger proof systems or whatever. Makes this more easily definable.

The problem seems to be that the 1-A tier implies inaccessibility, but 1-A feats and scaling are VERY accessible in Marvel.

Like we have 1-A realms such as the Astral Realm, but there are tons of feats involving every plane of existence (which would include the Astral Realm) that should make the characters performing them 1-A.

The problem isn't necessarily that too many characters would end up at 1-A, but that the characters with these feats don't show the superiority over lower tiered characters as described in the tiering system ("residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures...transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness").

Captain America’s shield forged from normal metalworking being Outerversal level for the longest time is still funny

 

[AguilaR202]

That just means Marvel isn’t 1-A what’s the problem really?

 

[Excellence616]

That just means Marvel isn’t 1-A what’s the problem really?

you have to debunk 1500+ scans for that.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah but can't there be case where 1-A realm exists in Marvel, when reality(Supposedly 1-A realm character from Marvel) travels to fiction(Normal Universe), it will automatically decrease Qualitative Power it has, hence character when it enters isn't 1-A in stats, but when gets back character again 1-A stats in higher realm?

Or travelling in true form without to non 1-A is anti feat for cosmology as whole rather than characters just?(If there is no explanation for them decreasing powers or having avatars?)

The point of the 1-A gap is that it can't be bridged by reducing a higher thing, or by increasing a lower thing.

And, in general, we'd need those sorts of explanations to actually be provided by the series, rather than invented by us.

 

[Eseseso]

I think a bigger issue is scaling consistency, since these aren't feats normal SS can do so it would be "At peak" even if they were accepted.

But as for the issue of anti-feats:

1. The Power Cosmic comes from the 1-A Astral Plane

2. Silver Surfer was granted the Power Cosmic by Galactus, who is a balancing force between 1-A Abstracts Eternity and death.

I do plan on revising Surfer's scaling in the future, especially as he's literally stated repeatedly to be the greatest Herald of Galactus, so this thread might be better off closed for now.

Sorry, OP.

 

[Eseseso]

I think Low 1-A would be a better peak anyways.

Pre-Annihilation feats:

• Fought a prolong battle against the Proemial Gods.

He got crippled by like 4 blasts from them and both he and Galactus admitted his power paled in comparison, he only won due to using the energies of the Big Crunch.

• Tanks a blast from all infinity stones.

Those are Soul Gems, not Infinity Stones.

For some reason everywhere I look people say they are infinity stones when they're clearly something else lol.

I'm dumb, apparently they're the same. But I'm iffy on using them for scaling.

Post-Anihilation:

• Hold his own against Knull.
  • Second battle, where he ran away from him.
  • Third battle where legit wins, even tanking the Necrosword and using his board as his sword.

Third battle is fine. First two are iffy since apparently Knull is weak to the Power Cosmic (along with magic and other light-based stuff), but yeah he clashed evenly with Knull in a sword duel so that should be valid. And yes Knull wanted him to be a Herald but at this point he was also sufficiently pissed at Surfer's defiance.

• No sells an attack from a satiated Galactus.

Seems like Galactus was holding back a bit, even telling Surfer to skedaddle.

More justified 1-A rating via Energy Manipulation significance in his battles:

• Norrin reconstructed the Heart of the Never Queen, with the Never Queen even mentions herself dying without it and Surfer himself also affirms that the heart contains all possibilities.
  • Fortunately with my logic, Surfer's losing battle against a weakened Never Queen would not contradict this line of scaling as I've established his durability/physicality/endurance =/= energy projection/manipulation. Making this line of scaling consistent and valid imo.

He moreso just replaced its function of powering a planet.

• This pattern seems to be a repetition of the past as well, during Norrin's battle against Adam Ka'dmon Man-Thing.
  • Bested him only via constructing and trapping him inside an impenetrable cocoon/seal. Man-Thing was fine after the battle, noting that a prolong back and forth mindless slugfest would lead to Surfer being outlasted.

Man-Thing on the wiki has no tier above 5-B at the moment.

• Against Knull, If we look closely in all their encounters, noticed only all of his energy beams specifically is what gave Knull trouble or did something significant.
  • He broke out of Knull's possession and briefly overwhelms him, making him grunt in pain specifically with his energy burst.
  • He does it again when killing his dragon during a chase.
  • After a prolong sword battle, we see a weakened Surfer being restrained, physically helpless but ultimate lets out a burst of energy that gained him his triumph.

See above.

Another deeper perspective on how disturbingly consistent this perspective is and doubling down on why it's valid.

Notice some of Surfer's feats are always when he was extremely weakened?

First we have the manipulation of the Big Crunch where Norrin performed him after a brutal amount punishment against the Proemial Gods, then we have the page's device activation and last but not least (if you're aware of the plot of SS Black) Surfer's final energy outburst that overpowered Knull which from this panel you can only sacrificed what seems to be 1/8th left of his shining residue. Some of his best energy projection feats are when he was extremely fragile.

See above

With that being said, here are multiple feats which should grant Norrin to 1-A decisively:

Pre-Annihilation:

• Holds his own against Mephisto inside his realm.
  • Specifically referring to this panel where he breaks free out of Mephito's tendrils/hell contructs.

Ok

• Scorched the Stranger's hands, whose one of the Abstracts.

Ok though the Stranger is the worst abstract

• Channeled the Big Crunch while weakened, killing the Proemial Gods in the Process.

See above

• Matched the energy output of the infinity stones.

Iffy

• Supplied power to the soul and mind gem.

Stones vary on their own.

• Sealed staff wielding Adam Ka'dmon Man-Thing.

See above

• Performed a feat not even Odin realize it was possible.

Not really a power feat

Post-Annihilation:

• Accidentally one-shotted infinity stone amped Tyrant.

This is fine since Tyrant with the Reality Stone was shone to be a universal threat capable of warping the entire universe.

• Clashed evenly against Galactus.
  • This Galactus just ate a plane at the very same issue.

The clash lasts for like a second and then Galactus disappears

• Reconstructed the Never Queen's Heart.

See above

• Overwhelmed Knull multiple times (see above).

See above

More feats in general to help with Low 1-C and 1-A consistency:

• Defeated Ronan the Accuser.
• Stomps Wonder Man.

Not sure how those two chumps support Surfer's scaling on that level

• Stalemated Dr. Strange.

Who varies a lot

• Fought Griever.

Maybe. He did fight her for 16 minutes and earned her respect, but he still lost and she was completely fine after the fight. Leaning no but maybe as support.

A good Low 1-A feat, however, is him holding out against Millenius due to his sheer willpower, with Millenius being an Odin-level threat. That in addition with him clashing with Knull.

If anything, what I plan to do for SS in another CRT is have his tiers be something like this:

"5-B to Low 2-C normally, up to Low 1-A with peak willpower".

But as I said that's for another thread.

 

[Rgerdeena]

IDK, I think the funniest thing is the entirety of all matter, density, mass, etc. in Marvel being composed of particles sourced from the literal highest cosmological layer which is like a hydrogen-bomb level anti-feat which everyone ignores for fun and giggles

Marvel database’s interpretation of them isn’t automatically correct, they think one above all is part of the multiverse for example, and it’d need way more looking into to actually be a good anti feat

 

[Eseseso]

IDK, I think the funniest thing is the entirety of all matter, density, mass, etc. in Marvel being composed of particles sourced from the literal highest cosmological layer which is like a hydrogen-bomb level anti-feat which everyone ignores for fun and giggles

Not really an anti-feat, just means that Kirbons descend from the WHR.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I mean, yeah, that’s the intuitive consequence, but having everything already made up of ‘H1-A particles’ would defeat them being H1-A through the definition requiring them being meta-qualitatively above anything else; that ‘anything’ is then already constructed by those supposed particles. Contradiction. So only Low 1-A would be available if this is taken seriously.

I thought High 1-A just has to encompass a certain amount of higher ontological hierarchies without necessarily needing there to be lower cosmological structures?

 

[Rgerdeena]

I thought High 1-A just has to encompass a certain amount of higher ontological hierarchies without necessarily needing there to be lower cosmological structures?

Reality equilization makes it so that the main universe can’t be 1-A or higher

 

[ObberGobb]

So the scope of this thread has obviously exceeded Silver Surfer's scaling. Therefore, I propose that a separate thread be made for evaluating, discussing, and ironing out the 1-A scaling in general, and return to Silver Surfer after that is settled.

This is important both for this thread, and the ongoing Thor upgrade. I believe that every character from Skyfather Tier all the way to Uni Abstract Tier should end up at 1-A due to scaling to every plane of existence and that there is not enough superiority of Abstracts over Skyfathers to warrant an unreachable tier gap as implied by Low 1-A to 1-A. If that makes makes not work, then I think all of those characters should be Low 1-A.

Regardless, this isn't the first time 1-A has been called into question, and it really needs to be ironed out since so much of the verse relies on this scaling.

 

[Rgerdeena]

So the scope of this thread has obviously exceeded Silver Surfer's scaling. Therefore, I propose that a separate thread be made for evaluating, discussing, and ironing out the 1-A scaling in general, and return to Silver Surfer after that is settled.

that’s just unfair to the OP, because then everything they proposed is just being mostly disregarded in favor of a different discussion, and the OP, tags, and title, don’t remotely imply ironing out the 1-A so that would make things very confusing for people that show up after now and would alter who checks the thread for ironing out the 1-A

This is important both for this thread, and the ongoing Thor upgrade. I believe that every character from Skyfather Tier all the way to Uni Abstract Tier should end up at 1-A due to scaling to every plane of existence and that there is not enough superiority of Abstracts over Skyfathers to warrant an unreachable tier gap as implied by Low 1-A to 1-A. If that makes makes not work, then I think all of those characters should be Low 1-A.

scaling to every plane of existence is ridiculously vague and shouldn’t be used for scaling, and there’s plenty of examples of abstracts being far superior to skyfathers, plus skyfathers usually just interact with the manifestations of the abstracts which vary

Regardless, this isn't the first time 1-A has been called into question, and it really needs to be ironed out since so muchof the verse relies on this scaling.

It isn’t as much of the verse as you think it is, the wiki just likes powerful marvel characters more then weak ones

 

[ObberGobb]

and the OP, tags, and title, don’t remotely imply ironing out the 1-A so that would make things very confusing for people that show up after now and would alter who checks the thread for ironing out the 1-A

That's why I said we need a new thread

scaling to every plane of existence is ridiculously vague and shouldn't be used for scaling

I don't think it's vague. If a character like Odin or and Mephisto has feats of affecting every realm or plane in Earth-616, that would include the realms that we say are 1-A. Abstracts are definitely stronger, I'm mostly talking about M-Bodies, which things like the Phoenix Force, Thor, and Dormammu have scaling to.

 

[ObberGobb]

To be honest I think the evidence for Silver Surfer is pretty solid and clear-cut, I support it being approved which I why I want to clear up the 1-A issue that is blocking it

 

[Rgerdeena]

That's why I said we need a new thread

sorry, misread your post, thought you said repurpose this thread for what you were suggesting

I don't think it's vague. If a character like Odin or and Mephisto has feats of affecting every realm or plane in Earth-616, that would include the realms that we say are 1-A. Abstracts are definitely stronger, I'm mostly talking about M-Bodies, which things like the Phoenix Force, Thor, and Dormammu have scaling to.

Every plane of existence would also include stuff like the house of ideas though, so they clearly aren’t affecting literally every plane of existence, and we have no way of knowing which ones they are affecting, and if your mostly talking about m bodies, then their not usable for scaling characters to 1-A since they vary

 

[Entity]

That's why I said we need a new thread

a staff thread?

 

[ObberGobb]

a staff thread?

Maybe. Staff + knowledgeable members would probably be best

 

[ObberGobb]

So does anyone want to make a thread to discuss 1-A Marvel? I would do it, but I feel like a staff member should (and I'm not very knowledgeable on how this tiering system works at this level anyway).

 

[Eseseso]

So does anyone want to make a thread to discuss 1-A Marvel? I would do it, but I feel like a staff member should (and I'm not very knowledgeable on how this tiering system works at this level anyway).

I mean I've spoken with Ultima about 1-A Marvel in the past and he's totally ok with it, so the main issue would really be the tiering of 1-A non-abstracts.

Magic users being 1-A is fine because magic is a force from before and beyond the multiverse, it's those like SS who are a bigger concern.

 

[Huesito88]

I mean I've spoken with Ultima about 1-A Marvel in the past and he's totally ok with it, so the main issue would really be the tiering of 1-A non-abstracts.

I mean Ultima being ok with it, doesn't mean other staff would

 

[Eseseso]

I mean Ultima being ok with it, doesn't mean other staff would

He was the one behind the current 1-A interaction guidelines and what consititutes an anti-feat.