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Kratos vs Yhwach

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Planck69 said:
Anyway, anyone has issues with me closing this? Soul Magic's nature neuters most of Yhwach's options. Unless we argue that his EE is enough to not make this a stomp.
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Even if Yhwach can't copy Soul Magic outright, he can still copy all his other shit that isn't based on that. Dunno exactly what that is, if there is any, but I guess that's something to consider.
 
BloodyBloodwork365 said:
The logic sounds...well, sound. Type 1 is independent of reality while Type 2 is dependent on it.
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michael-jordan-no-no-no.gif
 
Jin2188 said:
Even if Yhwach can't copy Soul Magic outright, he can still copy all his other shit that isn't based on that. Dunno exactly what that is, if there is any, but I guess that's something to consider.
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Most of Kratos' stuff is based in Soul Magic, so Yhwach would be getting an extremely neutered Kratos powerset that's like... his skill, his strength... and not much else cause his equipment is all based in the stuff.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I agree with this but wiki precedent is just to arbitrarily treat type 1 as superior despite simply preceding granting no greater power or make up of said concept.

If they were forms they would be 1-A.
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That's dumb and seems rife with contradictions. Might ask for permission to make a staff thread about this.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Most of Kratos' stuff is based in Soul Magic, so Yhwach would be getting an extremely neutered Kratos powerset that's like... his skill, his strength... and not much else cause his equipment is all based in the stuff.
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His statistics also come from magic. Like, Kratos doesn't have inherently supernatural muscle structure like a Viltrumite. All physical prowess stems from magic.
 
Jin2188 said:
So it's fully independent of reality, just like 1-A is supposed to be, but can also... not be 1-A?

Yeah no this is bullshit.
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I think it's just independent of its verse's cosmology, and thus scales above that.
So however powerful GoW is, it's Type 1 CM is higher than that.
 
BloodyBloodwork365 said:
I think it's just independent of its verse's cosmology, and thus scales above that.
So however powerful GoW is, it's Type 1 CM is higher than that.
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That isn't coherent, since 1-A is defined in basically the exact same way, as fully independent from all lower structures. It's still bullshit.
 
Jin2188 said:
That isn't coherent, since 1-A is defined in basically the exact same way, as fully independent from all lower structures. It's still bullshit.
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Make a CRT then. Ask how to do one. I myself wanted to do one for fire negating durability, until it was clarified to me that that's how fire works here.
 
Jin2188 said:
That isn't coherent, since 1-A is defined in basically the exact same way, as fully independent from all lower structures. It's still bullshit.
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Trust me I agree. Most people do. But them's the standards of CM1, we don't make the standards we just parrot em.
 
Jin2188 said:
You're right, @Robo432343. I'm obsessed with these matchups. I wanted to reject you, convince myself that you were wrong. But that doesn't matter now. I'm gonna make another Yhwach matchup. Even if you get this thread closed, I'll make another Yhwach matchup. Slander me. Call staff. I'll make a Yhwach matchup again. I don't need to find meaning or a reason. Maybe a hundred years after I get banned, the meaning behind my actions will become apparent. In the grand scheme of things, I'm probably nothing more than a biased idiot. But I'll keep making Yhwach matchups for as long as I can. That is my role in all of this.
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Feels the aura
 
Also what can Kratos even do with info manip Type 2? Like, you say that he has it, but all I see basically boils down to "cuz runes". How is he actually gonna attack Yhwach with this?
 
Jin2188 said:
That isn't coherent, since 1-A is defined in basically the exact same way, as fully independent from all lower structures. It's still bullshit.
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I mean again, regardless of opinion on it, it's the current standard.

Jin2188 said:
Also what can Kratos even do with info manip Type 2? Like, you say that he has it, but all I see basically boils down to "cuz runes". How is he actually gonna attack Yhwach with this?
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He destroys/aborbs/haxxes Yhwach on that level. And given his soul/magic is all Type 2 info, it can't really be interacted with by Yhwach or his copy.
 
Jin2188 said:
Also what can Kratos even do with info manip Type 2? Like, you say that he has it, but all I see basically boils down to "cuz runes". How is he actually gonna attack Yhwach with this?
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It's a part of all his magic and weapons and shiz.

So... Kratos fisting Yhwach is gonna Info 2 his ass, and his prostate
 
BloodyBloodwork365 said:
Make a CRT then. Ask how to do one. I myself wanted to do one for fire negating durability, until it was clarified to me that that's how fire works here.
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It would have to be a staff thread, not a CRT, but I can get permission from a staff member to make one.
 
Planck69 said:
I mean again, regardless of opinion on it, it's the current standard.


He destroys/aborbs/haxxes Yhwach on that level. And given his soul/magic is all Type 2 info, it can't really be interacted with by Yhwach or his copy.
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Based on the final wording, I think I'm going to clarify how the copy works.

The Yourself lets you become your opponent. There's technically two different versions, but Yhwach has them both.

It doesn't change anything, but the 'clones himself' part and 'copies powers' part are different abilities.
 
DaReaperMan said:
It's a part of all his magic and weapons and shiz.

So... Kratos fisting Yhwach is gonna Info 2 his ass, and his prostate
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Okay, but he's not actually manipulating Yhwach's information, is he? He's just drawing power from what we can very tentatively regard as an informational substrate of some kind.
 
Jin2188 said:
Okay, but he's not actually manipulating Yhwach's information, is he? He's just drawing power from what we can very tentatively regard as an informational substrate of some kind.
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He does on account of his every action affecting magic which is information/concept/life/chaos. He can absorb it, destroy it, nullify it, etc. Not a substrate or whatever lol.
 
Planck69 said:
He does on account of his every action affecting magic which is information/concept/life/chaos. He can absorb it, destroy it, nullify it, etc. Not a substrate or whatever lol.
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Okay, fair. Just wanted that clarified.

Although it does say that magic visibly manifests itself as runes, which makes me doubt that magic itself is actually informational, rather than that being a way it chooses to appear as.
 
Jin2188 said:
Okay, fair. Just wanted that clarified.

Although it does say that magic visibly manifests itself as runes, which makes me doubt that magic itself is actually informational, rather than that being a way it chooses to appear as.
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There is a whole section above detailing what magic is. Atp I might as well leave a redirect to that section of the magic page...
 
Planck69 said:
There is a whole section above detailing what magic is. Atp I might as well leave a redirect to that section of the magic page...
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I read the section. Still have questions. The closest it gets to something resembling info manip is a vague statement of "the runes connecting all". I'll gladly rescind my statement in light of contrary evidence, but as it stands I'm just not seeing it.
 
Huesito88 said:
The page
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Tier 0 Star Wars, you love to see it.
Anyways, I do think Yhwach could copy the Force by copying the midi-chlorians, but as I suspected, he wouldn't be able to directly copy the Force itself. Granted, Yhwach kinda already has Force-like powers (Precog, low-key telekinesis, etc.), and Marr seems...screwed otherwise, from what I can see, but those are both irrelevant to the actual question.
 
So no one's mentioned this already, but Yhwach has the Balance and the Antithesis (Antithesis isn't on the profile for some reason but he should have it). He can just clone himself a bunch of times with the Visionary, and even if Kratos oneshots those clones, he can still just reflect all that damage back on to him, so he can sort of "indirectly" use Kratos's abilities against him, even if he can't copy them outright.
 
Jin2188 said:
So no one's mentioned this already, but Yhwach has the Balance and the Antithesis (Antithesis isn't on the profile for some reason but he should have it). He can just clone himself a bunch of times with the Visionary, and even if Kratos oneshots those clones, he can still just reflect all that damage back on to him, so he can sort of "indirectly" use Kratos's abilities against him, even if he can't copy them outright.
Click to expand...
Good thing Kratos resists or can easily endure his entire kit.
 
Jin2188 said:
So no one's mentioned this already, but Yhwach has the Balance and the Antithesis (Antithesis isn't on the profile for some reason but he should have it). He can just clone himself a bunch of times with the Visionary, and even if Kratos oneshots those clones, he can still just reflect all that damage back on to him, so he can sort of "indirectly" use Kratos's abilities against him, even if he can't copy them outright.
Click to expand...
The Miracle and Yourself are the best things in Yhwach's kit for crossverse matchups and they've both been established to not work here.
 
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