Naruto Uzumaki vs Son Goku Part 2 [13-2-0]

[GodlyCharmander]

That is not going to work against someone that much stronger than him.

It's 21 Foe vs >29 Foe. Also Goku can become 42 Foe instantly.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Well then Goku could try using kiai to knock back and defend against grabs.

Its class Z with comparable AP

Nard would just tank the attack and overpower the pushing force

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It's 21 Foe vs >29 Foe. Also Goku can become 42 Foe instantly.

That doesn't matter! BY OUR CURRENT STANDARDS, IF HE GETS GRABBED HE DIES!

 

[Huesito88]

Oh nowhere? Then it's not my problem. This whole weaker durability bullshit is not established in the profiles whatsoever, so no, we're absolutely discussing this.

Then make a staff crt to resolve whether or not these grey states are allowed (currently no one has because it's a can of worms debate). Because you're just going to have a 10 page debate here with people that'll go nowhere and change nothing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That doesn't matter! BY OUR CURRENT STANDARDS, IF HE GETS GRABBED HE DIES!

What standards? Literally point out the standard that says LS gaps = death.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Then make a staff crt to resolve whether or not these grey states are allowed (currently no one has because it's a can of worms debate). Because you're just going to have a 10 page debate here with people that'll go nowhere and change nothing.

Actually WHY?

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE JUST ASSUMING THIS IS A STANDARD?


IT'S NOT. IT'S NOT ON THE DB PROFILES, IT'S NOT IN ANY WIKI PAGE. IT'S. NOT. A. STANDARD.

I'm debating for 30 pages if I have to, you're not having a multi-continental LS ripping apart a Solar System level character, it's not happening.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yamcha vs. Omni-Man is a match that's currently on both of their profiles despite the xbazillion AP gap between them cause of the LS stuff btw

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Fine, I guess I'll make a staff thread for it since it should be the simplest thing ever to figure out.

 

[Huesito88]

Actually WHY?

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE JUST ASSUMING THIS IS A STANDARD?


IT'S NOT. IT'S NOT ON THE DB PROFILES, IT'S NOT IN ANY WIKI PAGE. IT'S. NOT. A. STANDARD.

I'm debating for 30 pages if I have to, you're not having a multi-continental LS ripping apart a Solar System level character, it's not happening.

It's not we're assuming it's a standard, it's more like there isn't a standard and both sides have just agreed to just let it be like that until someone makes a proper crt to resolve it. (This is only for people in this weird grey state like DBZ though)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yamcha vs. Omni-Man is a match that's currently on both of their profiles despite the xbazillion AP gap between them cause of the LS stuff btw

The argument was Yamcha gets thrown into space, not ripped apart.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'm debating for 30 pages if I have to, you're not having a multi-continental LS ripping apart a Solar System level character, it's not happening.

Hey man, I don't exactly disagree with this but the point that nard supps are arguing here is that nard is relative in AP with an astronomical LS advantage, not nard being unfathomably weaker with an astronomical LS advantage

so smth like this would be sorta a terrible example

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's not we're assuming it's a standard, it's more like there isn't a standard and both sides have just agreed to just let it be like that until someone makes a proper crt to resolve it. (This is only for people in this weird grey state like DBZ though)

Then I don't need to do any CRTs, by all logic, a Class Z LS is not ripping a SS Char apart. That's the end of the argumentation, anything else would be presuming a logic that isn't there.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Hey man, I don't exactly disagree with this but the point that nard supps are arguing here is that nard is relative in AP with an astronomical LS advantage, not nard being unfathomably weaker with an astronomical LS advantage

so smth like this would be sorta a terrible example

I know. Naruto can strike and harm Goku, that's fundamentally different than ripping him in half. The LS stat he has is immensely inferior to his own AP stat.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

The argument was Yamcha gets thrown into space, not ripped apart.

The argument there was 100% LS crush for nolans wincon (that's why the match got added in the first place)

that said even if you wanted to say Nolan could LS crush you still sorta end up in a scenario where stuff has to play near perfectly for him to win (not like this is the same deal tho because unlike here where both are reletive, nolan was unfathomably weaker than yamcha)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I know. Naruto can strike and harm Goku, that's fundamentally different than ripping him in half. The LS stat he has is immensely inferior to his own AP stat.

i sorta get that

I'm just saying that the example you gave there wasn't exactly in line with what they were arguing for

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The argument was Yamcha gets thrown into space, not ripped apart.

Maybe some, but the main guy arguing for Omni-Man (Chariot) was very much not arguing that.

Now, usually, you could argue things like compression, but ya know things do have differing mechanical properties right? Just because something is extremely hard in one aspect, doesn't mean it transletes to verything, take diamond, or yes, even skin, as examples, the tensile, compressive, shear, etc shtrengths vary, they're not all the same. Now obviously there's some degree of "comparability" (usually, there is materials where the difference is actual magnitudes), but I'm not the person ho wrote a bunch of anti feats, statements, and showings.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Maybe some, but the main guy arguing for Omni-Man (Chariot) was very much not arguing that.

The anti-feat in question is 16 Pulling the tail, and the fact 16 scales to a made-up lowballed value that doesn't reflect his actual strength. It's basically the wiki patting itself on the back, it doesn't work, the LS value is already lowballed to hell.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You know what, I really don't feel like going 30 pages like I said. Let's just grant this to Naruto and actually argue how the battle would go. It's not even in character for Naruto to do that. He grabs and punches...

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Maybe some, but the main guy arguing for Omni-Man (Chariot) was very much not arguing that.

Like this is a very interesting point:

For argument's sake, let's just assume Omniman doesn't like, Platinum Choke and halt the bloodflow to his brainTM, would Yamcha even do that to someone he perceives as magnitudes weaker? Like would Yamcha dust a dude trying to mug him down a street?

This also applies here. Does Naruto just rip his opponents apart in Baryon Mode? When has he ever done that? He lands hits and immediately lets go.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're out of your damn mind if you think I'm ever interacting with you for more than 2 messages, which thankfully ends now.

Then stop making claims you can't back up. I don't care about interacting with you, you're far from being the most enjoyable person in this forum.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Naruto FRA

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Naruto FRA

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Goku FRA.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Can’t be bothered to read the earlier pages since there seems to be a lot of discourse and slight aggression but what does Naruto start with? And I don’t mean effective methods within his grasp you could argue with effort. I mean what’s his actual starting move

 

[Kellex]

I don't know if it's been brought up, but Baryon Naruto has this ability on his profile:

• Passive Life Manipulation and Durability Negation (Was able to shorten Isshiki's remaining 20-hour lifespan down to 30 minutes, then later on to less than 10 minutes. Anyone who touches Naruto or is touched by him starts to lose their lifespan. Although Isshiki didn’t take a fatal hit, he suffered internal bleeding and coughed up blood due to Naruto’s attacks)

Would this effect Goku badly in his Kaioken state?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Damnnn, ladies and gentlemen. Calm down, Attain Nirvana

I mean what’s his actual starting move

Punching, kicking, CQC, Countering blows. Get as much hits in as possible. The Life drain of BM does its work automatically.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Can’t be bothered to read the earlier pages since there seems to be a lot of discourse and slight aggression but what does Naruto start with? And I don’t mean effective methods within his grasp you could argue with effort. I mean what’s his actual starting move

According to the Isshiki fight, he just starts with hand to hand combat.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I don't know if it's been brought up, but Baryon Naruto has this ability on his profile:

Would this effect Goku badly in his Kaioken state?

Yes literally. That's the essence of BM. Each hit takes life span, Kaioken uses life force. It's Gojover.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes literally. That's the essence of BM. Each hit takes life span, Kaioken uses life force. It's Gojover.

Any ki technique uses life force. But the problem is, Kaioken uses such a negligible amount from a large pool, I don't know if it would wear out before Baryon Mode which also lasts for a comically short time.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah so I just checked the Bible length reply and it starts by implying "6 paths sage mode" doesn't have the abilities of basic "sage mode" by trying to twist the wording of the kcm2. Besides beyond wrong since BM and 6P don't just say "all abilities of the previous key" but "all previous abilities" - not excluding sage mode or any other key, this is also just extremely dishonest as an argument.

That just tells me you're not really interested in actually discussing the topic but instead just want to out-debate people with ratty nonsense so yeah, thanks but I'm not interested in that.

So yeah, I stand by what I said. Naruto is at worst relative to this Goku version in skill and like others have mentioned he has a huge LS advantage which he canonically uses in-character.
Voting Naruto FRA

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah so I just checked the Bible length reply and it starts by implying "6 paths sage mode" doesn't have the abilities of basic "sage mode" by trying to twist the wording of the kcm2. Besides beyond wrong since BM and 6P don't just say "all abilities of the previous key" but "all previous abilities" - not excluding sage mode or any other key, this is also just extremely dishonest as an argument.

Previous means the key immediately before. It's literally not established neither in lore, nor in the profiles.

he has a huge LS advantage which he canonically uses in-character.
Voting Naruto FRA

Should we even allow votes for invalid reasons? Because you never argued about the fight. Naruto never uses his LS to rip people apart, he uses once in character to land a (1; means singular) punch. We never discussed stamina. We never discussed Goku's inherent stat advantage with Kaioken x20, his arsenal to keep distance, ANYTHING.


Unbelievable.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Goku one shots him with a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, btw. That's >>>130 Foe.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Any ki technique uses life force. But the problem is, Kaioken uses such a negligible amount from a large pool

Huh...? Isn't it backwards? Ki techniques overall use lifeforce. The PL of these guys are too Immense for regular ki attacks to deal a huge blow to their life energy. However, Kaioken which exchanges Substantial amounts of Life Force for Power deals damage to the body than any technique ever could. I get that Golu atp adapts or maintains Kaioken much more easier but, regardless, the drain it has on life energy still stands. This isnt like DBS where he can go full fights Stacking Kaioken onto SSJB for power where he has decades more of experience with the technique than in Early DBZ where he's just using its different stages (x2, x4, x10 etc...). That with the additional life drain BM's sustained energy which focuses more on depleting life energy rather than usage of power is detrimental. In Canon terms. In just 5 minutes or less, Isshiki who had 3 days of lifespan left, was lessened down to 30 minutes. Kaioken is doing a favor here. And you also said he'll use Kai x20 onto of that? You're incredibly underestimating the life drain BM imposes upon Goku's already impending doom induced by his own power which takes life energy away.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I don't know if it's been brought up, but Baryon Naruto has this ability on his profile:

Would this effect Goku badly in his Kaioken state?

Yes it would completely disrupt the perfect state of ki control needed to use kaioken. Best case scenario he gets depowered, worst case scenario his body becomes messed up

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This also applies here. Does Naruto just rip his opponents apart in Baryon Mode? When has he ever done that? He lands hits and immediately lets go.

I dunno if Goku would really try to vaporize Naruto with a Kamehameha either

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Naruto FRA.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Yeah so I just checked the Bible length reply and it starts by implying "6 paths sage mode" doesn't have the abilities of basic "sage mode" by trying to twist the wording of the kcm2. Besides beyond wrong since BM and 6P don't just say "all abilities of the previous key" but "all previous abilities" - not excluding sage mode or any other key, this is also just extremely dishonest as an argument.

That just tells me you're not really interested in actually discussing the topic but instead just want to out-debate people with ratty nonsense so yeah, thanks but I'm not interested in that.

So yeah, I stand by what I said. Naruto is at worst relative to this Goku version in skill and like others have mentioned he has a huge LS advantage which he canonically uses in-character.
Voting Naruto FRA

Yeah like Naruto is a God Of Shinobi in terms of skill atp. Bro literally is beyond the leagues of Hashirama and Madara who outclassed entire armies of various ranked shinobis solo. I would also say Naruto can be compared to Goku. Being a "God Of Martial arts" I've never seen a db character take out a army of skilled individuals with pure hands. Correct me if im wrong

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Huh...? Isn't it backwards? Ki techniques overall use lifeforce. The PL of these guys are too Immense for regular ki attacks to deal a huge blow to their life energy. However, Kaioken which exchanges Substantial amounts of Life Force for Power deals damage to the body than any technique ever could. I get that Golu atp adapts or maintains Kaioken much more easier but, regardless, the drain it has on life energy still stands. This is like DBS where he can go full fights Stacking Kaioken onto SSJB for power where he has decades more of experience with the technique than in Early DBZ where he's just using its different stages (x2, x4, x10 etc...). That with the additional life drain BM's sustained energy which focuses more on depleting life energy rather than usage of power is detrimental. In Canon terms. In just 5 minutes or less, Isshiki who had 3 days of lifespan left, was lessened down to 30 minutes. Kaioken is doing a favor here. And you also said he'll use Kai x20 onto of that? You're incredibly underestimating the life drain BM imposes upon Goku's already impending doom induced by his own power which takes life energy away.

Yeah, as Goku got more skilled, he began to take less and less stamina drains from lesser Kaiokens. Since this is about depleting life span, rather than an overall energy depletion, I don't see the Kaioken x10 lasting less than Baryon. This even incorrectly assumes Naruto will be landing many hits in this fight despite Goku having the skill advantage in martial arts.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Bro literally is beyond the leagues of Hashirama and Madara who outclassed entire armies of various ranked shinobis solo.

Weren't hashi and madara both overwelmingly stronger than everyone else in their era?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah like Naruto is a God Of Shinobi in terms of skill atp. Bro literally is beyond the leagues of Hashirama and Madara who outclassed entire armies of various ranked shinobis solo. I would also say Naruto can be compared to Goku. Being a "God Of Martial arts" I've never seen a db character take out a army of skilled individuals with pure hands. Correct me if im wrong

You know this is unfair as Madara outstated the entire army. They were basically slow motion compared to him. If Goku were dropped in the same scenario, he would achieve the same thing. It's not something Toriyama even put Goku in, the absenve of evidence is not evidence of absence.