Naruto Uzumaki vs Son Goku Part 2 [13-2-0]

[M3X_2.0]

If Naruto holds Goku with the chakra tails and actually tries to smash him while punching him exactly like with Isshiki then yeah. He ******* explodes.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If Naruto holds Goku with the chakra tails and actually tries to smash him while punching him exactly like with Isshiki then yeah. He ******* explodes.

Thank you. That's what I thought would happen.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Goku isn't surviving the wrapping with the tails by the way..the tails would squash him to paste

I never argued against that infact I agreed by saying that if nard grabs goku with that much LS it would be a win for him

I'm saying that nard can't paste or rip goku apart from just punching him he has to either grab him with his tails or do smth else

 

[Delusionaltx2]

If Naruto holds Goku with the chakra tails and actually tries to smash him while punching him exactly like with Isshiki then yeah. He ******* explodes.

yeah HOLD as in grab him not punch him like what soul said

edit: soul said that he has to land one fatal hit but that still assumes he can win through just punches/kicks thanks to LS so that still means the same thing

 

[MannyQ361]

Well Goku could go for evasion since dropping out of Baryon Mode is a bigger loss of power for Naruto.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Well Goku could go for evasion since dropping out of Baryon Mode is a bigger loss of power for Naruto.

Would goku of all people really just try to focus on dodging and outlasting in character tho?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

yeah as i said earlier naruto just rips goku apart with that ls

As long as people understand nard has to actually grab goku for an LS tear I have no issues with that idea

the idea of an LS punch is kinda funny tho-

 

[Armorchompy]

Do people actually still think you can just rip apart characters with comparable durability like they're plasticine off a LS difference? Tensile strength is durability, it doesn't matter if a character is unable to physically fight back against the force the other is outputting, it's not just gonna bypass the actual relevant stat (durability). Hell, in truth you'd need WAY higher LS than Class Z to threaten a tier 5 character's body, not that it even matters given AP is what's actually gonna be at play. Just say he chokes him out or something.

 

[Huesito88]

Do people actually still think you can just rip apart characters with comparable durability like they're plasticine off a LS difference? Tensile strength is durability, it doesn't matter if a character is unable to physically fight back against the force the other is outputting, it's not just gonna bypass the actual relevant stat (durability)

From what I understand a lot of people believe DBZ characters are in a sort of grey state to where they can get killed by higher lifting strength regardless of the sheer AP difference (no one is looking to change this anytime soon because it's a can of worms topic)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Do people actually still think you can just rip apart characters with comparable durability like they're plasticine off a LS difference? Tensile strength is durability, it doesn't matter if a character is unable to physically fight back against the force the other is outputting, it's not just gonna bypass the actual relevant stat (durability)

Dragon Ball is particularly pretty bad in this area, like it's one of those fringe cases where it's hammered in they have bad LS and are still very much hurt by it.

Like

|

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Dragon Ball is particularly pretty bad in area, like it's one of those fringe cases where it's hammered in they have bad LS and are still very much hurt by it.

Like

The 16 vs Cell one is very egregious since those two are basically dead even in stats too, so imagine what Naruto is gonna do to Goku who is slightly inferior to him in AP and egregiously weaker than him in LS.

 

[MannyQ361]

The 16 vs Cell one is very egregious since those two are basically dead even in stats too, so imagine what Naruto is gonna do to Goku who is slightly inferior to him in AP and egregiously weaker than him in LS.

To be fair, 16 had stomped on his tail prior to using both his arms pull back on it while also kicking him forward.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

To be fair, 16 had stomped on his tail prior to using both his arms pull back on it while also kicking him forward.

Something Naruto will not need to do with that gargantuan difference in LS between them.

 

[R81handman]

Do people actually still think you can just rip apart characters with comparable durability like they're plasticine off a LS difference? Tensile strength is durability, it doesn't matter if a character is unable to physically fight back against the force the other is outputting, it's not just gonna bypass the actual relevant stat (durability). Hell, in truth you'd need WAY higher LS than Class Z to threaten a tier 5 character's body, not that it even matters given AP is what's actually gonna be at play. Just say he chokes him out or something.

Goku was nearly ripped apart by the gravity control on his spaceship on way to namek that a 100X above earth. Yamcha said he gonna be flattened by 300X and these guys are planetary. it a verse thing.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh is it like specifically a verse thing? ... Sure, seems weird but I don't really have a horse in this race then, I just disagree with it being a general assumption.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's kinda like how Mario gets really hurt by lava in nearly 99% of his appearances, it'd be less than faithful to act like he'd just walk it off just cause we gave him a big Tier.

 

[Huesito88]

Oh is it like specifically a verse thing? ... Sure, seems weird but I don't really have a horse in this race then, I just disagree with it being a general assumption.

Yeah it's a verse thing (Though technically no one has ever made a concrete staff thread on if such grey states are allowed), the general assumption is what everyone knows of is what you mentioned.

 

[MannyQ361]

Goku was nearly ripped apart by the gravity control on his spaceship on way to namek that a 100X above earth. Yamcha said he gonna be flattened by 300X and these guys are planetary. it a verse thing.

Wouldn’t those examples be specific to Toei?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wouldn’t those examples be specific to Toei?

Only the Yamcha example is Toei filler.

 

[MannyQ361]

Only the Yamcha example is Toei filler.

Referring to this. The manga seems to imply it but doesn't directly show it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Unnecessarily rude

It literally says this on the ability list
"All previous abilities enhanced plus:"

Let's pretend like the statement that he has all his previous abilities enhanced doesn't exist in the profile, which it does.

Where does it say Naruto lost his danger sense? You said he doesn't have his SM danger sense but the profile makes no notes of that.

So before accusing people of inventing abilities that aren't on the profile, maybe you should actually read the profile.

With Kurama Chakra, it says, "All previous abilities in base", skipping over Sage Mode. The subsequent keys state "all previous abilities", referring to the Kurama Chakra key, which does not include Danger Sense.

This wasn't really a gotcha.

First of all, no he said since he was a kid, not just when he was a kid. And addressing JUST his kid self doesn't actually fully address the argument.
Second of all, Naruto WAS keeping up with 2 tomoe sharingan precog when he was a kid.

Which is false. The 2 tomoe precog is barely relevant, and again, the precognition quality is entirely dependent on the quality of the fighter. You can predict 0.1 seconds in the future, but if you can't do anything about it, it's meaningless.

Naruto doesn't ourstat Itachi here, what? The profile you yourself took as law states this in edo Itachi's speed section.

At least Relativistic (Kept up with KCM Naruto in combat

Every feat I brought up was either against an equal opponent or a faster one.

The profile "you took as law". You mean the profile that's literally being used to make this match? Yeah, what it says there is what we consider. You can just add more skill feats if they don't contradict the profile like I did.

Yeah, Itachi "kept up" with KCM Naruto with his Sharingan precog and abilities, it's a feat for him. How does that stop Naruto for being above him in speed and having the Sharingan compensating it?

First of all, huh? Why is "eventually" relevant here? Yeah Naruto had to improve but that's Naruto 15 years before this one meaning he's already improved lmao.
And second of all, Juubito does not have intangibility. Obitos primary advantage was being much faster and having both sharingan and sage mode precog at the same time.

Fair. Misremembered.

Firstly, power scaling chain and skill scaling chain aren't mutually exclusive.

I wonder why you deny Goku being superior to a God of Martial Arts, then.

Like half of your arguments are "Goku beat X" which by your logic here would just be stat scaling and not a skill feat.

You're glossing over the fact where I mentioned they're statically equal, meaning the advantage comes from skill.

This is just factually wrong because Naruto does NOT outstat Momoshiki, Momoshiki does NOT outstat Sasuke, and Kinshiki did NOT outstat Sasuke.

You're trying to portray these as if the non-sharingan user was completely blitzing the sharingan user when they're completely tied in stats.

I'm not ignoring any feats or statements. You just keep mentioning irrelevant or unimpressive fluff statements that don't actually say much if anything about Gokus skill.

You genuinely don't get to say "God of Martial Arts" (I have given you a frame or reference), "Millions of Years of training on Earth" and "Genius Martial Arts" in a world where skills and mastery can go to 30th Dan, which is 3x higher than IRL, is unimpressive fluff.

I didn't just "snip one brick out". I replied to the entire bullet point which just brought up his power mimicry. The kamehameha replication WAS single bullet point so I addressed it individually. I didn't dismiss it's overall importance either.

You did.

You literally point out how "potential isn't skill" when my subsequent points proved that this potential became skill.

It's a moot point you're responding in isolation.
Also, power mimicry, martial art mimicry, and making new techniques are all feats of skill.

Again, cool, that's even less impressive than if it simply made him the most skilled at that point in the story. Knowing every martial art is a cool thing to have for versatility and a very good feat of talent but it doesn't say much about specific combat skill.

You could know 500000 martial arts and still lose to someone who's just good at a single one.

I don't think I need to tell you this, but Roshi is a master and dwarfs people on the 30th dan scale on each and every one of these martial arts, meaning his skill level on all of them is directly superhuman.

Dodging Master Roshi is the feat while being equal in stats is the feat, David.

Unimpressive on its own ≠ unimpressive in general.
Pinnacle of marital arts can range from unimpressive to insanely impressive depending on the context you provide.

I've provided context, you just keep ignoring it. The pinnacle of martial arts means it is beyond any of the verse's skills which transcend even the levels of mastery in real life.

Yes but being the best martial artist in the world by IRL standards pales in comparison to most fictional martial artists.

It's 300 years of experience + millions for Goku, in martial arts with levels of mastery that transcend IRL mastery.

Or the person fighting said sharingan user is just skilled enough to make up for their sharingan precog…?



That's very funny ngl



No, I don't know this because usually when people highlight and the word "literal" so much they tend to actually mean it literally.

Which is why you need additional evidence to make it actually impressive in a context like this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its a weak feat I'm saying it heavily depends on the verse.

So let me get this straight:

A non-sharingan user surpassing a Sharingan precog with the most telegraphed kick in existed, is a proof of skill simply by the fact the precog exist.

But dodging a master with hundreds of years of experience that knows all techniques of martial arts to the level of mastery, and is considered a god at this craft, is not impressive and not a proof of skill, because it's "just a punch"?

Yes because engaging Roshi at equal level is only as impressive as Roshi himself. I already addressed arguments you brought up for Roshi so Goku scaling to his skill didn't really provide any new information.

You didn't. You just said "being a God at Martial Arts and having X amount of experience that surpasses all known martial arts in this world is not impressive!"

Which is not true, you're just discarding valid argumentation. No.

I mean that's cool and all but Goku already saw Tenshinhan use solar flare before so he KNEW he can use it AND Tien was giving a wholeass speech while holding the hand sign he uses for the flare. So this is not Goku "predicting his intent" but Goku simply recognizing a hand sign that he uses for an attack.

That is him coming up with a specific plan to deal with a specific technique.

I mean cool? Again that's a similar feat to Naruto vs Kakuzu.

It's not. It's really not.

The Kakuzu feat is basic misdirection. It's using a known technique (transformation) and a basic information (if Kakuzu can't block, he will dodge).

Goku actually just predicted Tien's plan and countered it.

Yeah again, also a cool feat but Naruto was doing similar stuff all the time. Like him pretty much instantly figuring out what will and won't work against Kaguya and then forcing her to fight in a way that let's him access Sasuke, all while Kaguya herself was physically significantly superior to him.

Naruto never surpassed her physically so pointing out their gap in strength is not relevant.

No I'm not. You're claiming Gokus feats make him completely skill stomp Naruto, I'm arguing Narutos feats are at least on a comparable level hence why Gokus feats aren't as impressive as you make them out to be in this context.

If you throw away all the statements and who are the people he's fighting, sure, maybe. But you can't do that.

I mean, sure, I'm not against saying Gokus feat is slightly better. I don't think it's significantly better given Goku had much more knowledge on Tien than Naruto on Kakuzu, and Goku was relative to Tien while Naruto was significantly weaker/slower.

This is not a fair comparison.

The Kakuzu feat did not have Naruto engaging with his speed, strength, and skill. It was a misdirection. It's smart, but executing that plan does not require any skill beyond transforming and being thrown.

Goku's feat is SIGNIFICANTLY better because it requires actual skill to use your opponent's own knowledge of your skill, he knew Tien would prepare to block the oncoming Kamehameha with a specific technique, and knew he'd recognize it, and then fire on the opposite direction in the exact way to give him a boost. It is a completely different feat, this is not comparable to "banking he will dodge this attack."

What I'm saying is that
1. The difference in their skill/feats is NOT stomp level
2. The Naruto feat is performed WITHOUT any precog hax, meaning the accuracy of Narutos predictions would be on a much higher level with said precog.

The precog hax would have basically no effect on this Kakuzu feat. At best he'd just know Kakuzu would dodge a bit before he was hit.

I don’t get why are you such a ******* asshole about everything you say and respond to. I'm not surprised you were banned for so long if you're this incapable of discussing things normally.

I apologize.

That aside, my point was Naruto is capable of making character specific strategies for whoever he fights. Whether he figures out he can counter Delta by overflowing her with ninjutsu or that he can counter Kaguya by not using ninjutsu whatsoever.

You say Goku spotted strategic flaws with Tiens approach so I'm telling you Naruto can change the his strategic approach to the fight based on his opponents abilities extremely quickly.

That is fundamentally different than fighting an opponent for 5 minutes with their martial arts, and figuring out the specifics of their technique and finding fundamental flaws.

Yes, creating specific plans to deal with a character is a feat of intuitiveness, but that's*fundamentally different* from what I'm showing here. Obviously Goku can do the same with the likes of Raditz, Vegeta, etc, where his disadvantage is compensated with a specific move and how he'd get that move of. That's not the comparison being done here.

I'm not comparing it in general, I'm comparing it in the context of martial arts specifically.

Ki Control is considered Martial Arts, and Goku has access to such techniques in this battle, so the comparison is moot.

Yeah in terms of energy manipulation it's much more impressive of course but in terms of body control it's not.

The mental and physical skill required to do that is high. Making your own body's presence to be gone is more comparable to a Zetsu technique in Hunter x Hunter, I don't think the comparison makes sense.

I agree it's a verse-specific statement so they can mean 2 different things.
However you didn't do anything to imply why having an impenetrable defense would be superior in Gokus context than in other contexts so I didn't feel like it was necessary to explain any extraordinary setting either.
I also did tell you that I didn't actually list out Narutos skill feats and offered to do so.

I mean, it's pretty obvious, right? The fact Goku has no openings in his stance means that any skilled fighter in the verse wouldn't be able to get a hit in unless they stat stomp him. These fighters would include everyone Goku has surpassed, which circle back to those statements.

I don’t get why are you taking what I said out of context like that, that's so disingenuous.

It's more impressive in regards to senses. It's not more impressive in regards to mental power necessary to predict it.

I didn't say it's better or worse I gave exact context and explanation to how it compares to standard predictions.

This mentality is really funny. It's disingenuous, huh?

No, the mental power to have the slightest movement of air change, and calculating angle, speed, range and trajectory is impressive. Your comparison was, "the amount of movements predicted", which is not even a fair one, since we see Goku dodging dozen of attacks and we don't know how many of them he predicted beforehand. According to the guides, he predicts far more than just the one move about to hit him.

It's "not impressive", and "not different from standard prediction". That's simply false.

Yes, that's super impressive as a feat for his sense of touch. I wholeheartedly agree it's beyond any feat of physical feeling in Naruto.

But that doesn't mean the actual act of predicting itself is more impressive

I never claimed it did. This was a feat of skill and martial arts only. I don't get where this comparison came from. Yes, as an analytical prediction, this is still impressive, not necessarily as precog. Goku can predict this and the next move just from the opponents breath, we have established that already. If you pair this with the fact Goku is a better hand-to-hand fighter, it's going to give him an advantage.

Yes without expanding on what "greatest warrior in the universe" means it doesn't amount to much

It means he outscales everyone in the verse before that, each God of Martial Art, each 30-Dan something, gods with hundreds of millions of years of experience. That's what it means.

Also, this:

Basically, yeah. Comparing Naruto to Goku is insane.

No matter how much David tries to deny it, Master Roshi is stated in guides as someone literally knows every martial arts there is, and all of their techniques, hence, he is known as the God of Martial Arts

This is literal


The World Martial Arts Tournament is the tournament where all the strongest martial arts in the world train for to compete.

The tournament is also stated to be in a completely different league compared to any other tournaments on the planet.


We literally have people who are 30-dans masters of Kenpo

Mind you, in real life, the highest you can go is 10th Dan.

.
meaning the Dragon Ball universe has martial arts mastery far beyond Real Life, and they are still FODDER compared to Goku.


Goku can just create and invent new techniques out of the blue to perfectly counter any martial arts technique used against him intuitively.

And when he was paired with the god of martial arts, he straight up had trouble beating him, dodging effectively and almost perfectly every time.

This is why @DavidTPPM saying "where's the feat" is so ridiculous. Having a guy who is a complete master with 300 years experience attacking you already implies that said attack will be in the specific angle or manner meant to hit anyone below his skill level. The fact Goku dodges it effectively IS the feat itself.

After training with Korin, another god of martial arts, Goku has learned to study and predict his opponents move, and the next without trouble. Getting rid of unnecessary movements.

He can read his opponents move through the air, or their breath.

He can also empty his head completely to get rid of any indications of his moves, which directly makes Goku impossible to read.

These are techniques described as LITERALLY DIVINE WHICH COULD NOT BE LEARNED ON THIS EARTH

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Goku ain't even that much more skilled if at all

Goku skill stomps Naruto.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Do people actually still think you can just rip apart characters with comparable durability like they're plasticine off a LS difference? Tensile strength is durability, it doesn't matter if a character is unable to physically fight back against the force the other is outputting, it's not just gonna bypass the actual relevant stat (durability). Hell, in truth you'd need WAY higher LS than Class Z to threaten a tier 5 character's body, not that it even matters given AP is what's actually gonna be at play. Just say he chokes him out or something.

LITERALLY.


A Class Z LS is not ripping a Large Star/Solar System level character apart just because he can't physically get out of it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

@Chariot190

 

[M3X_2.0]

Goku skill stomps Naruto.

Not even if he wanted.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not even if he wanted.

Then by all means fight me on that. Naruto is not touching a guy with millions of years of experience in martial arts experience just because he "can come up with plans".

 

[M3X_2.0]

Then by all means fight me on that.

You're out of your damn mind if you think I'm ever interacting with you for more than 2 messages, which thankfully ends now.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

LITERALLY.


A Class Z LS is not ripping a Large Star/Solar System level character apart just because he can't physically get out of it.

We literally just discussed this. Dragon Ball characters who are comparable to each can literally rip each other apart as shown by 16 vs Cell where they are dead even in stats, so imagine what Naruto can do when he's vastly superior to Goku in LS and starts slightly stronger than him in AP.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dragon Ball is particularly pretty bad in this area, like it's one of those fringe cases where it's hammered in they have bad LS and are still very much hurt by it.

Like

|

You people got to be kidding me.

The LS in Dragon Ball is one of the most inconsistent and outlier-filled things in existence.

Characters in Early DB can lift stones thousands of times their own weight, but get crushed by 300x Gravity. The gravity thing specially makes no sense, since Goku faces higher levels of pressure and weight in his fights all the time. It's EXTREMELY inconsistent, and the values on the profiles are extremely conservative.

If we applied the same chain we do for speed and power, they'd do far more sense with the AP. Using Toriyama's poor understanding of his own character's feats with his gravity scaling is like using an anti-feat of SSJ4 Goku getting cut by glass.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We literally just discussed this.

"Discussed" and it's false examples and early conclusions with no pushback, what's the discussion exactly?

Dragon Ball characters who are comparable to each can literally rip each other apart as shown by 16 vs Cell where they are dead even in stats, so imagine what Naruto can do when he's vastly superior to Goku in LS and starts slightly stronger than him in AP.

That's a feat for 16. The fact we can't use Cell's durability to get 16's LS is due to the rules of the wiki.

The values on the profiles come from the sheer lack of LS feats, using extremely vague or early feats. We also can't use the multipliers of the story to get higher LS, which should also be included.

The LS on the profiles do not reflect their strength, and even that lowballed valued is inconsistent with the gravity and 40ton anti-feat, so using them is not correct.

 

[karo_senpaii]

You people got to be kidding me.

The LS in Dragon Ball is one of the most inconsistent and outlier-filled things in existence.

Characters in Early DB can lift stones thousands of times their own weight, but get crushed by 300x Gravity. The gravity thing specially makes no sense, since Goku faces higher levels of pressure and weight in his fights all the time. It's EXTREMELY inconsistent, and the values on the profiles are extremely conservative.

If we applied the same chain we do for speed and power, they'd do far more sense with the AP. Using Toriyama's poor understanding of his own character's feats with his gravity scaling is like using an anti-feat of SSJ4 Goku getting cut by glass.

I hope this means you're doing a LS revision CRT right now, if not this whole stuff is irrelevant man

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

"Discussed" and it's false examples and early conclusions with no pushback, what's the discussion exactly?



That's a feat for 16. The fact we can't use Cell's durability to get 16's LS is due to the rules of the wiki.

The values on the profiles come from the sheer lack of LS feats, using extremely vague or early feats. We also can't use the multipliers of the story to get higher LS, which should also be included.

The LS on the profiles do not reflect their strength, and even that lowballed valued is inconsistent with the gravity and 40ton anti-feat, so using them is not correct.

That's a you problem, not our problem. Going by our current profiles Naruto should casually be capable of tearing him to shreds. Make a CRT if you disagree, otherwise what you believe and argue doesn't matter.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

@Chariot190

The LS in Dragon Ball is one of the most inconsistent and outlier-filled things in existence.

Welp, how many pages will this thread be I wonder....

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I hope this means you're doing a LS revision CRT right now, if not this whole stuff is irrelevant man

I don't need to make a CRT to point out how the Gravity anti-feat is inconsistent even with the current profiles.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I don't need to make a CRT to point out how the Gravity anti-feat is inconsistent even with the current profiles.

We can always bump it down to unknown if you want.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's a you problem, not our problem. Going by our current profiles Naruto should casually be capable of tearing him to shreds. Make a CRT if you disagree, otherwise what you believe and argue doesn't matter.

"Going by our current profiles"



point out where in the profiles it says "Durability: Solar System level, Mountain level for Lifting Strength"


Oh nowhere? Then it's not my problem. This whole weaker durability bullshit is not established in the profiles whatsoever, so no, we're absolutely discussing this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We can always bump it down to unknown if you want.

Saying this like "Unknown" wouldn't immediately shut down any arguments about Naruto ripping Goku.

 

[MannyQ361]

Well then Goku could try using kiai to knock back and defend against grabs.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Well then Goku could try using kiai to knock back and defend against grabs.

That is not going to work against someone that much stronger than him.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well then Goku could try using kiai to knock back and defend against grabs.

Goku has such a variable arsenal to deal with grabs, he can also literally just teleport.