Naruto Uzumaki vs Son Goku Part 2 [13-2-0]

[GodlyCharmander]

Not quite. By the time he arrived on Namek, he was able to endure Kaioken 10x and then eventually 20x during his fight with Frieza, but

He could use x20 for one rush and it immediately destroyed his body. I'm not saying it's a short time limit, but there is one. Plus, semantics, Naruto's time limit is way way way way shorter.

given that Buu Saga Goku can use Super Kaioken (SSJ + Kaioken)

This is manga Goku.

 

[Kellex]

This is manga Goku.

Ack, my bad for that. It seems like I got hit by the Reading Comprehension Curse again cause I didn't see the change until now.
Also the tag still uses Son Goku (Toei).

Plus, semantics, Naruto's time limit is way way way way shorter.

Oh, that I know lol. That time limit is so ass.

 

[MannyQ361]

He could use x20 for one rush and it immediately destroyed his body.

To be fair, Frieza was beating him down prior to using it. Buu Saga Goku's dead body might also help with Kaioken on top of his additional training since Namek.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Now we have a fight.

Goku is on a timer, as Kaioken still ***** him a bit. But so is Naruto. Assuming this is IC, Naruto will likely try to go hand-to-hand against Goku.

I'd imagine Goku skill stomps Naruto in hand-to-hand combat given his analytical precognition, and just overall higher experience. Given their proximity in power, Goku would put belt to ass in the first few seconds of the fight.

I disagree, Naruto has better Precog and analytical prediction, the likes of which this version of Goku hasn't even seen . He has also been dealing with sharingan level Precog since when he was a kid .
Bring actually Goku skill feats if not he's getting out classed by Naruto

Further more, Goku's tactics are often punching a mf so hard they fly away, as he chases them into the air. Once Goku takes the fight into the air, he will have an overwhelming advantage, as his mobility makes Baryon Mode's look like a joke. While Goku will see that he is winning, and that he could end the fight with a Kaioken x20, doubling his power temporarily, I imagine Goku could end the fight with a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, which would be in one shot range from Naruto.

Naruto can fly too broski and has fought on the moon with no atmosphere, he'd be fine.

Naruto only wins if he changes tactics and uses Ninjutsu to counter Goku's superior martial arts, but that's not in character for him to start with, and he would probably be cooked before he had the chance to fly away, as Goku can immediately speed up with a Kaioken x20.

I vote for Goku.

Actually naruto's tails is going to be the on doing of Goku. His tails all have instinctive reaction that operate different from Naruto so not only is Goku going to have to deal with Naruto who has his own analytical prediction and danger sense and is an experienced fighter in his own right, he'd have to deal with 9 extra tails with movements different from Naruto with each of those tails being a death trap if they touch him with the LS gap being abysmal.
In fact that's a primary tactics of baryon mode Naruto, hold down and punch to oblivion.

Also Naruto is not just 29 foe, he was no selling that level of attacks from ishikki at least in the initial parts of baryon mode. So yeah I think Naruto takes this using this tactics and whips out a ninjutsu to end the whole thing

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Danger sense.
Better precog.
Better analytical prediction.

Baryon Mode does not get the perks of Sage Mode at all. Just thought I'd let you know.

Naruto has better Precog and analytical prediction, the likes of which this version of Goku hasn't even seen . He has also been dealing with sharingan level Precog since when he was a kid .
Bring actually Goku skill feats if not he's getting out classed by Naruto.

You can disagree all you want, but Goku has demonstrably superior analytical prediction and superior martial arts skill. Naruto will absolutely try to fight him hand-to-hand. And that's where this ends.

Naruto also doesn't have Sage Mode's precognition in this matchup, so that card is off the table entirely.

"The likes of which Goku has never ever seen."
Oh boy. You're being difficult about a topic I can thoroughly dismantle. Let's go.

"Dealing with Sharingan Precog" is a generous reframe of "getting absolutely stomped by slower characters with Sharingan," like 3-tomoe Sasuke vs. Kyuubi Chakra Naruto where Naruto had the speed advantage and still got embarrassed until he stacked an even bigger stat amp via his one-tail form.

He literally had to brute force his way into a skill deficit.

You're comparing a ninja with basic military training to the literal god of martial arts on Planet Earth

Do you not understand this? The gap of skill is so large that the first muscle from Naruto that moves will get predicted and countered by Goku.

let's talk about what Goku's martial arts mastery actually looks like on paper.

• As a child, Goku was trained by Son Gohan, a master of every martial arts style in the world, and showed such extraordinary potential that he replicated the Kamehameha on the spot, something Master Roshi himself stated would normally require decades to learn.
• He later became Roshi's direct disciple, training under the man recognized at the Tenkaichi Budokai as the literal "god of martial arts."
• During the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku was the first to force Roshi to give his max, meaning he is even better than Grandpa Gohan.
• After training with another literal god of martial arts, he defeated Tao Pai Pai.
• He then went toe-to-toe with Tenshinhan, himself a martial arts master, and did so with surgical adaptability, grabbing Roshi's glasses preemptively to counter the Solar Flare, reading straight through Tenshinhan's afterimage feints in real time, recognizing that throwing a Kamehameha would be a waste of energy in that moment, and instead redirecting it as propulsion to knock Tenshinhan out of the air. Mind you they are literally equal in stats, Goku's advantage came straight from being a better fighter.
• He then defeated Piccolo Daimao, the evil half of an ancient genius martial artist.
• Then he trained under Kami and Mr. Popo, learning complete Ki mastery, including the ability to suppress his presence to absolute zero.
• He returned to the next Budokai and spotted two distinct strategic errors in Tenshinhan's approach mid-fight.
• Ultimately defeated Piccolo Jr. who had spent three years training specifically to kill Goku and declared that even 100 Z Fighters alongside Kami himself wouldn't be enough to stop him.
• When faced with Roshi's Drunken Fist style mid-fight, Goku invented his own counter-style on the spot, the "Crazy Fist", demonstrating an unparalleled ability to create and adapt in real time rather than simply reacting.
• His guard is described as completely impenetrable, with zero openings for opponents to exploit.
• Against Yakon, he dodged attacks by sensing the subtle shifts in air currents alone, an exceptional level of sensory mastery that goes far beyond conventional combat awareness.
• He trained for 158 days under King Kai, a master explicitly ranked above Kami-sama in martial arts, with Kai himself believing Goku had what it took to master techniques like the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb that no other student could achieve. King Kai correctly predicted Goku would become the greatest warrior in the universe. That prophecy was fulfilled. This training alone is described as equivalent to thousands of years of Earth-standard development.

I hope we're clear. If Naruto and Goku exchange blows, Goku stomps him. The skill feats on Naruto's page reduce to "he's creative and observant in a pinch." That's fine. You don't compare that to a man who is functionally the apex of martial arts craft in his entire universe

I hope we never have to debate about this again.

Naruto can fly too broski and has fought on the moon with no atmosphere, he'd be fine.

Show me Baryon Mode flying rq.

Actually naruto's tails is going to be the on doing of Goku. His tails all have instinctive reaction that operate different from Naruto so not only is Goku going to have to deal with Naruto who has his own analytical prediction and danger sense and is an experienced fighter in his own right, he'd have to deal with 9 extra tails with movements different from Naruto with each of those tails being a death trap if they touch him with the LS gap being abysmal.

Goku has fought multiple opponents before.

Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode's danger sense.

Goku's skill gap is far too great for that to matter.

Naruto doesn't start by using the tails. He would start by trying to throw hands.

In fact that's a primary tactics of baryon mode Naruto, hold down and punch to oblivion.

Also Naruto is not just 29 foe, he was no selling that level of attacks from ishikki at least in the initial parts of baryon mode.

Fine, Goku can double his speed and attack power instantly, he also can just outlast Naruto, use teleportation, afterimages, Solar Flare.

Goku has such a ridiculous arsenal against this Rasengan merchant.

Here's how it would go:

• Naruto is going to fight seriously since Baryon Mode is a literal death clock.
• Goku is already aware of the gap in their strength due to ki sensing.
• If Naruto tries to fight him in hand-to-hand, he is getting MIXED, and punched into the air.
• Goku can double his speed at literally any second and just bully Naruto for the win. Naruto grows weaker per every second.
• Baryon Mode lasts like, 5 minutes, be so fr.

Goku wins, and it's not a particularly high diff either.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Baryon Mode does not get the perks of Sage Mode at all. Just thought I'd let you know.

I never said it does. Read his profile, kurama chakra gives him another and he has up to cosmic awareness without sage mde

You can disagree all you want, but Goku has demonstrably superior analytical prediction and superior martial arts skill. Naruto will absolutely try to fight him hand-to-hand. And that's where this ends.

Naruto also doesn't have Sage Mode's precognition in this matchup, so that card is off the table entirely.

"The likes of which Goku has never ever seen."
Oh boy. You're being difficult about a topic I can thoroughly dismantle. Let's go.

"Dealing with Sharingan Precog" is a generous reframe of "getting absolutely stomped by slower characters with Sharingan," like 3-tomoe Sasuke vs. Kyuubi Chakra Naruto where Naruto had the speed advantage and still got embarrassed until he stacked an even bigger stat amp via his one-tail form.

He literally had to brute force his way into a skill deficit.

You're comparing a ninja with basic military training to the literal god of martial arts on Planet Earth

Do you not understand this? The gap of skill is so large that the first muscle from Naruto that moves will get predicted and countered by Goku.

let's talk about what Goku's martial arts mastery actually looks like on paper.

• As a child, Goku was trained by Son Gohan, a master of every martial arts style in the world, and showed such extraordinary potential that he replicated the Kamehameha on the spot, something Master Roshi himself stated would normally require decades to learn.
• He later became Roshi's direct disciple, training under the man recognized at the Tenkaichi Budokai as the literal "god of martial arts."
• During the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku was the first to force Roshi to give his max, meaning he is even better than Grandpa Gohan.
• After training with another literal god of martial arts, he defeated Tao Pai Pai.
• He then went toe-to-toe with Tenshinhan, himself a martial arts master, and did so with surgical adaptability, grabbing Roshi's glasses preemptively to counter the Solar Flare, reading straight through Tenshinhan's afterimage feints in real time, recognizing that throwing a Kamehameha would be a waste of energy in that moment, and instead redirecting it as propulsion to knock Tenshinhan out of the air. Mind you they are literally equal in stats, Goku's advantage came straight from being a better fighter.
• He then defeated Piccolo Daimao, the evil half of an ancient genius martial artist.
• Then he trained under Kami and Mr. Popo, learning complete Ki mastery, including the ability to suppress his presence to absolute zero.
• He returned to the next Budokai and spotted two distinct strategic errors in Tenshinhan's approach mid-fight.
• Ultimately defeated Piccolo Jr. who had spent three years training specifically to kill Goku and declared that even 100 Z Fighters alongside Kami himself wouldn't be enough to stop him.
• When faced with Roshi's Drunken Fist style mid-fight, Goku invented his own counter-style on the spot, the "Crazy Fist", demonstrating an unparalleled ability to create and adapt in real time rather than simply reacting.
• His guard is described as completely impenetrable, with zero openings for opponents to exploit.
• Against Yakon, he dodged attacks by sensing the subtle shifts in air currents alone, an exceptional level of sensory mastery that goes far beyond conventional combat awareness.
• He trained for 158 days under King Kai, a master explicitly ranked above Kami-sama in martial arts, with Kai himself believing Goku had what it took to master techniques like the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb that no other student could achieve. King Kai correctly predicted Goku would become the greatest warrior in the universe. That prophecy was fulfilled. This training alone is described as equivalent to thousands of years of Earth-standard development.

I hope we're clear. If Naruto and Goku exchange blows, Goku stomps him. The skill feats on Naruto's page reduce to "he's creative and observant in a pinch." That's fine. You don't compare that to a man who is functionally the apex of martial arts craft in his entire universe

Broski I never said Naruto is more skilled than Goku what? Can't you just concentrate and read what I wrote? I said Naruto has better analytical prediction and Precog and has faced better.
Sasuke Precog outclasses anything in the entirety of dragon ball, he also has better reaction and perception than Naruto and yet Naruto is able to to perfectly match him, not to mention the same thing for kaguya, madara, obito. In fact literally every single person Naruto fights in the latter stage of Naruto has so much bullshit Precog and they are even rated faster than him and yet somehow he keeps up and matches them in combat.

Goku might know more martial arts, more moves, shown more skill sure I'll give him that but Naruto will always be able to outmanoeuvre him the same way he outmanoeuvred people who can replicate all and see through everything he does as well as have a perfect counter to it. I mean he perfectly countered someone with a byakugan and a rinnesharingan at the same time .

I hope we never have to debate about this again.

Show me Baryon Mode flying rq.

I don't need to show you, it's on his profile. If you really need to check, it's the one time he used the sharingan in the anime

Goku has fought multiple opponents before.

Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode's danger sense.

Again that doesn't matter, there's a bit load of it on his profile asides sage mode

Goku's skill gap is far too great for that to matter.

Naruto doesn't start by using the tails. He would start by trying to throw hands.

What kind of glaze is this "skill gap" . Explain in practical terms how he is going to outmanoeuvre 9 chakra arms that move different instinctually from Naruto when they are the same speed

Fine, Goku can double his speed and attack power instantly, he also can just outlast Naruto, use teleportation, afterimages, Solar Flare.

You're just quoting lots of stuff that would drain his stamina and just shorten the fight more. Teleportation is all well and good but if he gets caught once it's over. After images? Seriously? Ninja Academy 101, solar flare? Even tobirama can teleport a tso releasing a blinding light on the level of solar flare, he'd be fine

Goku has such a ridiculous arsenal against this Rasengan merchant.

Here's how it would go:

• Naruto is going to fight seriously since Baryon Mode is a literal death clock.
• Goku is already aware of the gap in their strength due to ki sensing.
• If Naruto tries to fight him in hand-to-hand, he is getting MIXED, and punched into the air.
• Goku can double his speed at literally any second and just bully Naruto for the win. Naruto grows weaker per every second.
• Baryon Mode lasts like, 5 minutes, be so fr.

Goku wins, and it's not a particularly high diff either.

"Ridiculous arsenal" sorry but Goku arsenal is really basic honestly. In fact if Naruto had similar ap in sosp mode you and I know this would be an utter stomp.

"Naruto goes weaker every second". The weakest version of baryon mode Naruto literally before he got slammed out of the mode was still able to belt a 29 foe character. At the start Goku cannot even hurt Naruto with his punches. If he goes hand to hand the tails come into play and with the LS it's GG.

You don't have to tell me "high diff". Vote and move on bro

 

[GodlyCharmander]

kurama chakra gives him another and he has up to cosmic awareness without sage mde

Cosmic Awareness is not a form of precognition, Karo. It just means Naruto knows what's happening out in the cosmos. He has no new danger sense in Six Paths or Baryon.

I said Naruto has better analytical prediction

Notice how you didn't prove that.

Sasuke Precog outclasses anything in the entirety of dragon ball

It doesn't. Also, Naruto isn't Sasuke. It doesn't matter if Sasuke has precog if he's a terrible fighter compared to Goku and Naruto.

Naruto will always be able to outmanoeuvre him

To claim Naruto will outmaneuver Goku, is to claim Naruto is more skilled than Goku. Not a single movement Naruto can do that Goku won't find the perfect counter and slap him around. Not a single movement Goku can do that will lead to an opening, Goku doesn't have openings for people less skilled than him.

I don't need to show you, it's on his profile

Flight, in fact, is not on his profile for Baryon Mode. Also he just doesn't use it in the fight.

Explain in practical terms how he is going to outmanoeuvre 9 chakra arms that move different instinctually from Naruto when they are the same speed

Parry (since his striking strength is comparable), counter, zanzoken, just get upclose and bully Naruto with combos he had never seen. If he's about to be grabbed, he can teleport away, he can sense the energy of the tails too, so he can also just dodge them as instinctively as he did Yakon in the same arc we're pulling him from, Naruto is not touching him with these tails.

Also, you're assuming he will have the opportunity to use them, Naruto doesn't start with tails, he starts with hands, he will get embarrassed THEN, and if he survives, he may try the tails.

You're just quoting lots of stuff that would drain his stamina

Kaioken x10 and x20 don't have a significant effect on his body.

Naruto lasts 5 minutes. Also, acknowledge the immediate advantage Goku has or drop this argument.

After images? Seriously? Ninja Academy 101

Doesn't matter.

"Having seen it before" =/= "Will immediately be able to deal with it perfectly"

The Zanzoken can trick literal gods of martial arts. Goku can use the triple faint to make Naruto believe he has hit Goku.

if he gets caught once it's over.

It's not over since he can teleport out of it.

Also he's not getting caught, stop assuming an impossible scenario.

solar flare? Even tobirama can teleport a tso releasing a blinding light on the level of solar flare, he'd be fine

"This character can do it, so Naruto should be fine"

Stop using this defense, it's bogus. Naruto doesn't have a resistance for intense blinding lights, and ESPECIALLY not the level Goku has, as the Solar Flare literally scales in intensity with power level. He would be blinded. End of story.

At the start Goku cannot even hurt Naruto with his punches

Stop with the lying, Karo. Literally stop. Because Isshiki never punches, or touched Naruto at the start. You don't claim something you don't know.

Vote and move on bro

Oh, what's that?

You're surprised that you said something blatantly incorrect and got push back on it?

Did you forget you're in a debating forum?

Did you also forget you're the one who questioned my points with a faulty basis?


You don't get to misrepresent the circumstances of the characters and be off scot free.

You're confidently incorrect here. Just drop this and move on.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Cosmic Awareness is not a form of precognition, Karo. It just means Naruto knows what's happening out in the cosmos. He has no new danger sense in Six Paths or Baryon.


Notice how you didn't prove that.

Limited Extrasensory Perception (Shinobi can instinctively perceive chakra auras, hostile intent, and bloodlust without the need for direct visual or auditory cues.[108] Even without formal sensory-type training, skilled individuals can detect fluctuations in chakra or malice in their surroundings. For instance, Sasuke Uchiha was able to sense the faint aura of his brother Itachi from a minute flicker of chakra, something a normal child would not have been able to notice.[109] Similarly, various ninja are shown freezing or reacting to oppressive aura's injected with killing intent of powerful enemies like Orochimaru[110] or Zabuza[111])
Enhanced Senses (Enhanced Awareness & Extra Senses - Shinobi possess an extraordinary intuition and heightened awareness—almost like a sixth sense—that enables them to detect threats far beyond the reach of their ordinary senses or direct line of sight[112][113])
Limited Extrasensory Perception (Naruto is able to sense the presence of Asura Ōtsutsuki’s chakra within himself[114])

This is base by the way

Enhanced Senses (1-layers; Invisibility - Kurama's chakra allows its users to perceive invisible entities such as the King of Hell[212]), Extrasensory Perception & Analytical Prediction (Kurama[213] and its host are capable of sensing[214] and perceiving[215] negative emotions and hostility in others.[216] This ability extends to being able to sense negative intent, sense incoming danger,[217] and anticipate attacks before they happen, as well as perceive threats without having to rely on sensing the target's chakra[218])

This is with kurama chakra


Since you just can't read profiles , here I've done it for you

It doesn't. Also, Naruto isn't Sasuke. It doesn't matter if Sasuke has precog if he's a terrible fighter compared to Goku and Naruto.

It does. Literally drop the best Precog in the verse at this point and it falls short of Sasuke. Naruto isn't Sasuke, he has fought someone that can see ahead of his every move and counter it flawlessly (sharingan by the way) and yet was still able to go toe to toe with him and match him.

To claim Naruto will outmaneuver Goku, is to claim Naruto is more skilled than Goku. Not a single movement Naruto can do that Goku won't find the perfect counter and slap him around. Not a single movement Goku can do that will lead to an opening, Goku doesn't have openings for people less skilled than him.

No my claim is Naruto Precog would make him know every single move Goku wants to make. It doesn't matter how skilled he is if his analytical prediction isn't as good, Naruto also has better reactions .

Flight, in fact, is not on his profile for Baryon Mode. Also he just doesn't use it in the fight.

"If you could read you'd see "all previous abilities except" but alas your fail to do so

Parry (since his striking strength is comparable), counter, zanzoken, just get upclose and bully Naruto with combos he had never seen. If he's about to be grabbed, he can teleport away, he can sense the energy of the tails too, so he can also just dodge them as instinctively as he did Yakon in the same arc we're pulling him from, Naruto is not touching him with these tails.

His striking strength is less than even ishikki, it's in no way comparable. He would literally find it impossible to react to all 9 arms at once. By the way he can't sense it. Read Naruto profile and see his resistance to esp, he also can't dodge all of them instinctively at once, he lacks the speed since each of them are comparable to him. His only option is to keep teleporting away, which makes him incapable of even fighting close combat with him. At that point Naruto probably just wipes him with jutsu

Also, you're assuming he will have the opportunity to use them, Naruto doesn't start with tails, he starts with hands, he will get embarrassed THEN, and if he survives, he may try the tails.

He uses the tails and his hands together, I'm not assuming anything, that's literally what he was doing against ishikki. Even if Goku somehow by some miracle holds the advantage initially in hands it's useless coz he can't do any damage, Naruto would see this and just use his tails.

Kaioken x10 and x20 don't have a significant effect on his body.

Ah yes sure, let me believe you and not his profile

Naruto lasts 5 minutes. Also, acknowledge the immediate advantage Goku has or drop this argument.

5 mins is enough to literally end this fight. In fact a minute is. Goku has no advantage, his punches and kicks can't even hurt Naruto initially. It has to be later on when Naruto is severely weakened which he'd never get there

Doesn't matter.

"Having seen it before" =/= "Will immediately be able to deal with it perfectly"

The Zanzoken can trick literal gods of martial arts. Goku can use the triple faint to make Naruto believe he has hit Goku.

See if you actually read profiles you'd probably see that basic shinobi have resistance to illusions and misdirections, if you read further you'd see Naruto got this shit layered 5 times but I know you didn't read it.

It's not over since he can teleport out of it.

Also he's not getting caught, stop assuming an impossible scenario.

He'd be held, how would he do the teleportation sign? In fact he likely gets turned to paste the moment he is grabbed , the difference is trillions of times.
He will get caught, it's just impossible for one of the tails not to catch him while he is simultaneously fighting Naruto.

"This character can do it, so Naruto should be fine"

Stop using this defense, it's bogus. Naruto doesn't have a resistance for intense blinding lights, and ESPECIALLY not the level Goku has, as the Solar Flare literally scales in intensity with power level. He would be blinded. End of story.

He does , basic shinobi kit includes flash bangs. Also it is irrelevant and pointless, he can fight even blind.

Stop with the lying, Karo. Literally stop. Because Isshiki never punches, or touched Naruto at the start. You don't claim something you don't know.

He did, Naruto held and swatted those punches like a baby.

Oh, what's that?

You're surprised that you said something blatantly incorrect and got push back on it?

Did you forget you're in a debating forum?

Did you also forget you're the one who questioned my points with a faulty basis?


You don't get to misrepresent the circumstances of the characters and be off scot free.

You're confidently incorrect here. Just drop this and move on.

No no no bro. I simply said there's no need to say cocky stuff like "it's not particularly high diff". Give your opinion, vote and move on. I don't need all these. Stop misinterpreting my words

 

[DavidTPPM]

Baryon Mode does not get the perks of Sage Mode at all. Just thought I'd let you know.

Baryon Mode still has its own danger sense which could detect projectiles even a combination of an enhanced sage mode and kcm2 couldn't with extreme precision.

So yes he doesn't have SM precog, he has BETTER precog.

"Dealing with Sharingan Precog" is a generous reframe of "getting absolutely stomped by slower characters with Sharingan," like 3-tomoe Sasuke vs. Kyuubi Chakra Naruto where Naruto had the speed advantage and still got embarrassed until he stacked an even bigger stat amp via his one-tail form.

Kid Naruto anti-feats brought up for hokage Naruto is crazy.
Kcm1 Naruto throws hands with Itachi and keeps up with him with no difficulty. Same Naruto also fights Obito, all without sage mode.

Then with sage mode Naruto eventually manages to precog-pinpoint Obito who not only has sharingan precog but also his own sage mode on top of it.

We also see Kinshiki can keep up with Sasukes sharingan precog in base and Momoshiki can do so 2v1. And yet Naruto could throw hands on par with Momoshiki who absorbed Kinshiki and his skills.

So yes he does fight and keep up with sharingan precog from relative if not faster opponents.

let's talk about what Goku's martial arts mastery actually looks like on paper.

• As a child, Goku was trained by Son Gohan, a master of every martial arts style in the world, and showed such extraordinary potential that he replicated the Kamehameha on the spot, something Master Roshi himself stated would normally require decades to learn.

Cool but potential does not equal skill. This isn't super important beyond just establishing Goku has power mimicry.

• He later became Roshi's direct disciple, training under the man recognized at the Tenkaichi Budokai as the literal "god of martial arts."

Don't just throw the word "literal" around when your scan does in fact NOT say that "literally".
And even if it did it's only as impressive as the martial art feats in the verse at that point in time. And ironically I DID read that far into DB so I can safely tell you at that point it was pretty unimpressive.

• During the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku was the first to force Roshi to give his max, meaning he is even better than Grandpa Gohan.

Not impressive without showing impressive Roshi feats from that point in the story.

• After training with another literal god of martial arts, he defeated Tao Pai Pai.

Same as the previous argument

• He then went toe-to-toe with Tenshinhan, himself a martial arts master, and did so with surgical adaptability, grabbing Roshi's glasses preemptively to counter the Solar Flare, reading straight through Tenshinhan's afterimage feints in real time, recognizing that throwing a Kamehameha would be a waste of energy in that moment, and instead redirecting it as propulsion to knock Tenshinhan out of the air. Mind you they are literally equal in stats, Goku's advantage came straight from being a better fighter.

Pretty standard martial arts stuff ngl. Nothing overly impressive in this section either.

Naruto was doing similar stuff without even having precog. He used his clones as a distraction predicting Kakuzu will see through them and attack the original, so he hid his real body among the distraction so that when Kakuzu attacks what he thinks is the real Naruto he'll leave himself open to the actual real Naruto.

To put it in the same words as the scan you sent, Naruto predicted Kakuzus prediction. And while Goku was equal to Tenshinhan, Naruto was actually almost a blitz level slower than Kakuzu.

• He then defeated Piccolo Daimao, the evil half of an ancient genius martial artist.

Empty fluff.

• Then he trained under Kami and Mr. Popo, learning complete Ki mastery, including the ability to suppress his presence to absolute zero.

That's not a martial art feat but energy manipulation feat. It's like if I said Naruto can form a rasen shuriken which is so complex even the sharingan can't track it, and that it somehow makes Naruto a better martial artist.

But speaking of stealth, even kids in the academy master stealth to such an extent that making sound is considered an absurdity for them. THAT is a feat of body control and therefore martial arts skill. And that's what ALL like 12 year old shinobi are capable of.

• He returned to the next Budokai and spotted two distinct strategic errors in Tenshinhan's approach mid-fight.

I mean, cool? Naruto attacked Kaguya once and immediately had completely analyzed her fighting style and how to counter it. This is just standard analysis which Naruto is very good at too.

• Ultimately defeated Piccolo Jr. who had spent three years training specifically to kill Goku

This is completely irrelevant unless there's actual information on what exactly did "training specifically to kill Goku" mean. As far as we know it could just be improving his physical stats or completely unrelated marital arts training.

Otherwise it's empty fluff

• and declared that even 100 Z Fighters alongside Kami himself wouldn't be enough to stop him.

100 Z fighters can't compare to his power. That's not a skill feat.

Also base BoS Sasuke could take down 1000 shinobi without killing a single one of them or getting a single drop of blood in him all at once. If we're speaking sheer numbers, Naruto edges out easily.

• When faced with Roshi's Drunken Fist style mid-fight, Goku invented his own counter-style on the spot, the "Crazy Fist", demonstrating an unparalleled ability to create and adapt in real time rather than simply reacting.

Again just basic analysis here. Hell I'd even argue it's subpar analysis given he just scared Toshiba by acting like an angry dog.

Honestly Roshi just closing his eyes when attacked looks more like an anti feat for him.

• His guard is described as completely impenetrable, with zero openings for opponents to exploit.

That's pretty cool. Frog kata was described to be flawless in the sense it leaves no openings in defense OR offense. So sub-PA Naruto level stuff here.

• Against Yakon, he dodged attacks by sensing the subtle shifts in air currents alone, an exceptional level of sensory mastery that goes far beyond conventional combat awareness.

This IS actually very impressive senses.
But actual analytical prediction itself here is pretty average.

The only difference between this and a regular AnaPr feat is that instead of using a visual queue to predict the attack he used his sense of touch. Hell it might even be a bit worse given he didn't exactly predict it with great precision or several steps ahead, he just sensed where the attack was coming from.

• He trained for 158 days under King Kai, a master explicitly ranked above Kami-sama in martial arts, with Kai himself believing Goku had what it took to master techniques like the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb that no other student could achieve. King Kai correctly predicted Goku would become the greatest warrior in the universe. That prophecy was fulfilled. This training alone is described as equivalent to thousands of years of Earth-standard development.

This is vaguely impressive but without actual feats to show how changes his combat it doesn't really amount to much.

I hope we're clear. If Naruto and Goku exchange blows, Goku stomps him. The skill feats on Naruto's page reduce to "he's creative and observant in a pinch." That's fine. You don't compare that to a man who is functionally the apex of martial arts craft in his entire universe

I mean, do you think judging Narutos feats purely off of his profile but giving a detailed set of arguments for Gokus is fair?

What we do in this case is just ask the other side to provide arguments.

I hope we never have to debate about this again.

You didn't debate anything, you just listed your arguments and concluded you're right.

Anyway if you want me to I can break Narutos skill down for you. Because if this is what Goku can do then Naruto might honestly be at least relative if not superior.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Wait this dude actually said goku would take things to the air and have an advantage? The guy with hypersonic+ flight speed?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This has to be one of the worst responses I've ever gotten in my life...

Baryon Mode still has its own danger sense which could detect projectiles even a combination of an enhanced sage mode and kcm2 couldn't with extreme precision.

Where is "enhanced precognition" listed in the profile for the Baryon Mode key?

Nowhere.

So we're done here.

You don't get to invent abilities mid-debate that aren't catalogued on the profile we're working from.

End of STORY. Baryon Mode doesn't have danger sense.

If it's not on the page, it doesn't exist for the purposes of this matchup. That's the most basic rule of VS debating and you just casually threw it out because you needed a lifeline.

Next.

Kid Naruto anti-feats brought up for hokage Naruto is crazy.

I already addressed this. It was Karo who brought up Kid Naruto, not me. I was pointing out the absurdity of their argument. The fact that you responded to me as if I made that argument tells me you didn't actually read my post carefully. Which explains a lot about the quality of your responses.

Kcm1 Naruto throws hands with Itachi and keeps up with him with no difficulty.

KCM1 Naruto outstats Itachi. You just proved my point for me. Naruto keeping up with a slower opponent is not a skill feat. That is a stat feat. Thank you for demonstrating exactly the problem with your argumentation, you're consistently repackaging power advantages as technical skill and hoping nobody notices.

Then with sage mode Naruto eventually manages to precog-pinpoint Obito who not only has sharingan precog but also his own sage mode on top of it.

"Eventually." Your word, not mine. After extended combat, with Sage Mode active, against an opponent whose primary advantage is intangibility, not raw combat skill. And Sage Mode is not available in this matchup, which you conveniently keep glossing over every single time you bring up Sage-enhanced feats. Stop citing tools Naruto doesn't have access to.

We also see Kinshiki can keep up with Sasuke's sharingan precog and Momoshiki can do so 2v1. And yet Naruto could throw hands on par with Momoshiki.

This is a power scaling chain, not a skill argument. You're saying:

• Kinshiki kept up with Sasuke's Sharingan
• Momoshiki absorbed Kinshiki
• Naruto matched Momoshiki

That's three layers of transitive stat scaling dressed up as a skill feat. None of that tells us anything about Naruto's actual martial technique, his analytical mid-fight adaptation, or his ability to read and counter a fighting style he's never seen. By your own logic, every character who outstats a Sharingan user is a martial arts genius. That's not how this works.

Also, it's REALLY PRECIOUS how you keep asking for feats and ignoring statements while at the same time citing, "Naruto kept up with guy that had this".

If the Sharingan user didn't use his precog effectively and was countered by a freaking kick to the face, that's either a blitz, or the Sharingan user is a terrible fighter.

"Keeping up" with someone that has a certain skill is MEANINGLESS if the method used isn't particular impressive.

Cool but potential does not equal skill.

You quoted one sentence and responded to it in complete isolation, which I already called out as an extremely dishonest debating practice. The Kamehameha replication is not a standalone claim, it is evidence of his learning speed and combat IQ, which is then supported by every subsequent feat in the chain. The fact that Goku fulfills that potential by forcing Roshi to his absolute limit, then defeating Tao Pai Pai, then dismantling Tenshinhan with surgical precision, that is the argument. You don't get to snipe one brick out of a wall and declare the wall doesn't exist.

Don't just throw the word "literal" around when your scan does in fact NOT say that literally.

The title "God of Martial Arts" being bestowed at the Tenka'ichi Budōkai, the premier martial arts tournament in the world, on a man described as a master of every known martial arts style in existence is, by any reasonable reading, a claim of absolute supremacy over human martial arts. The word "literal" is rhetorical emphasis, not a citation error. You know this. You're nitpicking punctuation because you have no substantive counter to the actual claim.

And by the way, you said you read that far into Dragon Ball. Did you?


No, cause did you really?

Because someone who actually read it wouldn't dismiss the Tenka'ichi Budōkai framing as "unimpressive in context." The tournament is explicitly presented as the pinnacle of martial arts in that world. That's not my interpretation. That's the text.

Not impressive without showing impressive Roshi feats from that point in the story.

Being superior to every martial artist in the world is the feat. You don't need a secondary source to validate a statement that is itself a statement of absolute supremacy. If someone is explicitly called the best in the world at something, the burden is on you to prove that's an empty title, not on me to re-prove the obvious.

Furthermore, Goku matching and pushing Roshi to his limit at relative stats means the delta came entirely from technical skill. You haven't engaged with this once. You just keep saying "not impressive" as if saying it enough times makes it true. It doesn't. Use your words.

Pretty standard martial arts stuff ngl.

Let me restate exactly what happened so you can't summarize it into oblivion:

• Goku preemptively grabbed Roshi's glasses before the Solar Flare was even executed, not as a reaction, but as a prediction of Tenshinhan's intent
• He read through the Zanzōken in real time and identified it as a bluff while moving at combat speed
• He recognized mid-fight that a Kamehameha would be an energy inefficient play in that specific moment and repurposed it as a propulsion tool to create a different attack vector
• All of this happened at equal stats, meaning every single advantage came from intelligence and technique alone

"Standard stuff." That's your response. You are either being deliberately obtuse or you genuinely cannot recognize what you're looking at.

Naruto predicted Kakuzu's prediction.

This is your best Naruto skill feat and I'll give it genuine credit, it is good misdirection. But notice what you're doing: you're holding up one highlight moment as representative of Naruto's general combat IQ, while systematically dismissing an entire documented history of Goku's technical development across multiple arcs and multiple opponents. That is not a consistent standard of evidence. Either both sides cite specific moments as representative or neither does.

And even granting the Kakuzu feat fully, Goku didn't just predict one layer of prediction. He repurposed the Kamehameha, invented a new martial style mid-fight, preemptively countered a technique before it was used, and did all of this against opponents explicitly described as his peers or superiors in skill. The depth and consistency of his analytical application across completely different opponents, styles, and scenarios dwarfs a single clever clone trick.

Naruto attacked Kaguya once and immediately had completely analyzed her fighting style.

No. He did not. I'm going to say this plainly:

Naruto did not analyze Kaguya's fighting style and develop a counter.

He came up with a distraction plan. That is literally what happened. You described it as "completely analyzing her fighting style and how to counter it", that is a fabrication. You inflated a basic misdirection tactic into something it demonstrably was not, and you did it in a debate about analytical prediction. The irony is almost poetic.

That's not a martial art feat but an energy manipulation feat.

Goku learning to suppress his entire life signature to absolute zero, no heat, no sound, no ki, no breathing detectable, at God-tier power levels, through dedicated mastery under the tutelage of beings above Kami-sama, is being compared by you to... academy children not making footstep sounds.

I want you to sit with that.

You compared the complete erasure of a divine energy signature to children learning to walk quietly.

That is the quality of argument you just submitted.

Frog Kata was described to be flawless in defense AND offense. So sub-PA Naruto level stuff here.

Goku's guard being impenetrable is established independently of power scaling. An impenetrable guard means no openings, that is a technical mastery descriptor, not a power level descriptor. You can't dismiss a technique quality statement by citing a power tier. These are different categories. Frog Kata being "flawless" is also a description that exists within Naruto's power context. Goku's impenetrable guard exists within his. You cannot casually cross-reference them as equivalent without arguing why they're comparable in scope, which you haven't done.

The only difference is he used touch instead of sight. Hell it might even be worse.

You genuinely tried to argue that sensing attacks through microscopic air current shifts is worse than visual prediction.

Think about what you just said.

Visual prediction requires a visible tell. Air current sensing requires detecting the physical displacement caused by motion at combat speeds, pressure waves, directional flow, velocity gradient, and processing all of that into an accurate read of angle, speed, and trajectory. Without seeing anything.

That is a higher-order sensory feat than visual reaction time. Not lower. The fact that you tried to spin it as a downplay tells me you recognized it was a problem for your argument and just hoped the framing would stick.

It didn't.

This is vaguely impressive but without actual feats to show how it changes his combat it doesn't amount to much.

King Kai, ranked above Kami-sama in martial arts mastery, staking his reputation on Goku's potential, predicting he would become the greatest warrior in the universe, and being correct... "doesn't amount to much."

A prophecy made by a being of that caliber, fulfilled canonically, is exactly the kind of statement that establishes Goku's ceiling. You want feats to show how training changed his combat? The entire remainder of the Z saga is those feats. You don't get to demand more evidence for a premise that the entire rest of the story confirms.

Also base BoS Sasuke could take down 1000 shinobi. So Naruto edges out in numbers.

You just used this exact logic "100 Z Warriors can't compare to his power" to dismiss my Piccolo feat as a power statement rather than a skill feat.

And then in the same response you cited Sasuke defeating 1000 shinobi as a comparative numbers argument.

You applied one standard to Goku and the opposite standard to Naruto in consecutive sentences.

Anyway if you want me to I can break Naruto's skill down for you.

Yes. Please do. Because so far your entire counter-argument has consisted of:

• "Not impressive" with no supporting reasoning
• One Kakuzu feat
• Power scaling chains mislabeled as skill feats
• A double standard applied selectively to whatever benefits Naruto
• A fabricated description of the Kaguya fight
• Comparing divine Ki suppression to children walking quietly
• Arguing that touch-based prediction is worse than visual prediction

Break it down. I'm right here. I have sources, I have patience, and I have already demonstrated that every single technical category favors Goku with documented, cited evidence.

Your move. Have an actual point. I love how you ignored the fact Goku can also double his stats anyway to overwhelm Naruto, lmao.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Wait this dude actually said goku would take things to the air and have an advantage? The guy with hypersonic+ flight speed?

I've never seen level of larping!


The hypersonic+ rating applies to long travel. At short bursts, and during fighting ranges, his Flight speed can blitz people of similar speeds as him.

 

[Robo432343]

So far Naruto's skill feats are, "He is comparable to X who can do this" but unlike Naruto, Goku actually performed the feats himself

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So far Naruto's skill feats are, "He is comparable to X who can do this" but unlike Naruto, Goku actually performed the feats himself

Basically, yeah. Comparing Naruto to Goku is insane.

No matter how much David tries to deny it, Master Roshi is stated in guides as someone literally knows every martial arts there is, and all of their techniques, hence, he is known as the God of Martial Arts

This is literal


The World Martial Arts Tournament is the tournament where all the strongest martial arts in the world train for to compete.

The tournament is also stated to be in a completely different league compared to any other tournaments on the planet.


We literally have people who are 30-dans masters of Kenpo

Mind you, in real life, the highest you can go is 10th Dan.

.
meaning the Dragon Ball universe has martial arts mastery far beyond Real Life, and they are still FODDER compared to Goku.


Goku can just create and invent new techniques out of the blue to perfectly counter any martial arts technique used against him intuitively.

And when he was paired with the god of martial arts, he straight up had trouble beating him, dodging effectively and almost perfectly every time.

This is why @DavidTPPM saying "where's the feat" is so ridiculous. Having a guy who is a complete master with 300 years experience attacking you already implies that said attack will be in the specific angle or manner meant to hit anyone below his skill level. The fact Goku dodges it effectively IS the feat itself.

After training with Korin, another god of martial arts, Goku has learned to study and predict his opponents move, and the next without trouble. Getting rid of unnecessary movements.

He can read his opponents move through the air, or their breath.

He can also empty his head completely to get rid of any indications of his moves, which directly makes Goku impossible to read.

These are techniques described as LITERALLY DIVINE WHICH COULD NOT BE LEARNED ON THIS EARTH

 

[karo_senpaii]

If you like let Goku know the whole martial arts in the universe, it doesn't change the fact that Naruto has multiple precog and analytical prediction higher than Goku and has fought people that can predict his every move and counter it flawlessly and still came out in top. Final valley fight is a prime example. Naruto wins

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If you like let Goku know the whole martial arts in the universe, it doesn't change the fact that Naruto has multiple precog and analytical prediction higher than Goku and has fought people that can predict his every move and counter it flawlessly and still came out in top. Final valley fight is a prime example. Naruto wins

Naruto doesn't have a singular form of precognition himself. He is getting stomped.

Also Goku can outstat with Kaioken x20.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Not quite. By the time he arrived on Namek, he was able to endure Kaioken 10x and then eventually 20x during his fight with Frieza, but given that Buu Saga Goku can use Super Kaioken (SSJ + Kaioken), I'm pretty sure the damages from Kaioken 10x would be negligible at this point.

Manga Goku cannot combine KK with SSJ. That's only Toei exclusive

 

[DavidTPPM]

This has to be one of the worst responses I've ever gotten in my life...

Unnecessarily rude

Where is "enhanced precognition" listed in the profile for the Baryon Mode key?

It literally says this on the ability list
"All previous abilities enhanced plus:"

Nowhere.

So we're done here.

You don't get to invent abilities mid-debate that aren't catalogued on the profile we're working from.

End of STORY. Baryon Mode doesn't have danger sense.

Let's pretend like the statement that he has all his previous abilities enhanced doesn't exist in the profile, which it does.

Where does it say Naruto lost his danger sense? You said he doesn't have his SM danger sense but the profile makes no notes of that.

So before accusing people of inventing abilities that aren't on the profile, maybe you should actually read the profile.

I already addressed this. It was Karo who brought up Kid Naruto, not me. I was pointing out the absurdity of their argument. The fact that you responded to me as if I made that argument tells me you didn't actually read my post carefully. Which explains a lot about the quality of your responses.

First of all, no he said since he was a kid, not just when he was a kid. And addressing JUST his kid self doesn't actually fully address the argument.
Second of all, Naruto WAS keeping up with 2 tomoe sharingan precog when he was a kid.

KCM1 Naruto outstats Itachi. You just proved my point for me. Naruto keeping up with a slower opponent is not a skill feat. That is a stat feat. Thank you for demonstrating exactly the problem with your argumentation,

Naruto doesn't ourstat Itachi here, what? The profile you yourself took as law states this in edo Itachi's speed section.

At least Relativistic (Kept up with KCM Naruto in combat

you're consistently repackaging power advantages as technical skill and hoping nobody notices.

Every feat I brought up was either against an equal opponent or a faster one.

"Eventually." Your word, not mine. After extended combat, with Sage Mode active, against an opponent whose primary advantage is intangibility, not raw combat skill.

First of all, huh? Why is "eventually" relevant here? Yeah Naruto had to improve but that's Naruto 15 years before this one meaning he's already improved lmao.
And second of all, Juubito does not have intangibility. Obitos primary advantage was being much faster and having both sharingan and sage mode precog at the same time.

This is a power scaling chain, not a skill argument. You're saying:

• Kinshiki kept up with Sasuke's Sharingan
• Momoshiki absorbed Kinshiki
• Naruto matched Momoshiki

That's three layers of transitive stat scaling dressed up as a skill feat.

Firstly, power scaling chain and skill scaling chain aren't mutually exclusive. Like half of your arguments are "Goku beat X" which by your logic here would just be stat scaling and not a skill feat.

None of that tells us anything about Naruto's actual martial technique, his analytical mid-fight adaptation, or his ability to read and counter a fighting style he's never seen. By your own logic, every character who outstats a Sharingan user is a martial arts genius. That's not how this works.

This is just factually wrong because Naruto does NOT outstat Momoshiki, Momoshiki does NOT outstat Sasuke, and Kinshiki did NOT outstat Sasuke.

You're trying to portray these as if the non-sharingan user was completely blitzing the sharingan user when they're completely tied in stats.

Also, it's REALLY PRECIOUS how you keep asking for feats and ignoring statements while at the same time citing, "Naruto kept up with guy that had this".

I'm not ignoring any feats or statements. You just keep mentioning irrelevant or unimpressive fluff statements that don't actually say much if anything about Gokus skill.

If the Sharingan user didn't use his precog effectively and was countered by a freaking kick to the face, that's either a blitz, or the Sharingan user is a terrible fighter.

Or the person fighting said sharingan user is just skilled enough to make up for their sharingan precog…?

You quoted one sentence and responded to it in complete isolation, which I already called out as an extremely dishonest debating practice. The Kamehameha replication is not a standalone claim, it is evidence of his learning speed and combat IQ, which is then supported by every subsequent feat in the chain. The fact that Goku fulfills that potential by forcing Roshi to his absolute limit, then defeating Tao Pai Pai, then dismantling Tenshinhan with surgical precision, that is the argument. You don't get to snipe one brick out of a wall and declare the wall doesn't exist.

I didn't just "snip one brick out". I replied to the entire bullet point which just brought up his power mimicry. The kamehameha replication WAS single bullet point so I addressed it individually. I didn't dismiss it's overall importance either.

The title "God of Martial Arts" being bestowed at the Tenka'ichi Budōkai, the premier martial arts tournament in the world, on a man described as a master of every known martial arts style in existence is, by any reasonable reading, a claim of absolute supremacy over human martial arts.

Again, cool, that's even less impressive than if it simply made him the most skilled at that point in the story. Knowing every martial art is a cool thing to have for versatility and a very good feat of talent but it doesn't say much about specific combat skill.

You could know 500000 martial arts and still lose to someone who's just good at a single one.

The word "literal" is rhetorical emphasis, not a citation error.

That's very funny ngl

You know this. You're nitpicking punctuation because you have no substantive counter to the actual claim.

No, I don't know this because usually when people highlight and the word "literal" so much they tend to actually mean it literally.

And by the way, you said you read that far into Dragon Ball. Did you?


No, cause did you really?

Because someone who actually read it wouldn't dismiss the Tenka'ichi Budōkai framing as "unimpressive in context." The tournament is explicitly presented as the pinnacle of martial arts in that world. That's not my interpretation. That's the text.

Unimpressive on its own ≠ unimpressive in general.
Pinnacle of marital arts can range from unimpressive to insanely impressive depending on the context you provide.

Being superior to every martial artist in the world is the feat. You don't need a secondary source to validate a statement that is itself a statement of absolute supremacy. If someone is explicitly called the best in the world at something, the burden is on you to prove that's an empty title, not on me to re-prove the obvious.

Yes but being the best martial artist in the world by IRL standards pales in comparison to most fictional martial artists.

Which is why you need additional evidence to make it actually impressive in a context like this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its a weak feat I'm saying it heavily depends on the verse.

Furthermore, Goku matching and pushing Roshi to his limit at relative stats means the delta came entirely from technical skill. You haven't engaged with this once. You just keep saying "not impressive" as if saying it enough times makes it true. It doesn't. Use your words.

Yes because engaging Roshi at equal level is only as impressive as Roshi himself. I already addressed arguments you brought up for Roshi so Goku scaling to his skill didn't really provide any new information.

Let me restate exactly what happened so you can't summarize it into oblivion:

• Goku preemptively grabbed Roshi's glasses before the Solar Flare was even executed, not as a reaction, but as a prediction of Tenshinhan's intent

I mean that's cool and all but Goku already saw Tenshinhan use solar flare before so he KNEW he can use it AND Tien was giving a wholeass speech while holding the hand sign he uses for the flare. So this is not Goku "predicting his intent" but Goku simply recognizing a hand sign that he uses for an attack.

Naruto did similar stuff before where he recognized Sasuke is using a specific handsign

• He read through the Zanzōken in real time and identified it as a bluff while moving at combat speed

I mean cool? Again that's a similar feat to Naruto vs Kakuzu.

• He recognized mid-fight that a Kamehameha would be an energy inefficient play in that specific moment and repurposed it as a propulsion tool to create a different attack vector

Yeah again, also a cool feat but Naruto was doing similar stuff all the time. Like him pretty much instantly figuring out what will and won't work against Kaguya and then forcing her to fight in a way that let's him access Sasuke, all while Kaguya herself was physically significantly superior to him.

• All of this happened at equal stats, meaning every single advantage came from intelligence and technique alone

Yeah, again, cool feats. My point is Naruto does at least comparable feats also either against people relative to or superior to him physically.

This is your best Naruto skill feat and I'll give it genuine credit, it is good misdirection. But notice what you're doing: you're holding up one highlight moment as representative of Naruto's general combat IQ, while systematically dismissing an entire documented history of Goku's technical development across multiple arcs and multiple opponents.

No I'm not. You're claiming Gokus feats make him completely skill stomp Naruto, I'm arguing Narutos feats are at least on a comparable level hence why Gokus feats aren't as impressive as you make them out to be in this context.

That is not a consistent standard of evidence. Either both sides cite specific moments as representative or neither does.

I'm not saying you can't cite specific moments

And even granting the Kakuzu feat fully, Goku didn't just predict one layer of prediction. He repurposed the Kamehameha, invented a new martial style mid-fight, preemptively countered a technique before it was used, and did all of this against opponents explicitly described as his peers or superiors in skill. The depth and consistency of his analytical application across completely different opponents, styles, and scenarios dwarfs a single clever clone trick.

I mean, sure, I'm not against saying Gokus feat is slightly better. I don't think it's significantly better given Goku had much more knowledge on Tien than Naruto on Kakuzu, and Goku was relative to Tien while Naruto was significantly weaker/slower.

What I'm saying is that
1. The difference in their skill/feats is NOT stomp level
2. The Naruto feat is performed WITHOUT any precog hax, meaning the accuracy of Narutos predictions would be on a much higher level with said precog.

No. He did not. I'm going to say this plainly:

Naruto did not analyze Kaguya's fighting style and develop a counter.

He came up with a distraction plan. That is literally what happened. You described it as "completely analyzing her fighting style and how to counter it", that is a fabrication. You inflated a basic misdirection tactic into something it demonstrably was not, and you did it in a debate about analytical prediction. The irony is almost poetic.

I don’t get why are you such a ******* asshole about everything you say and respond to. I'm not surprised you were banned for so long if you're this incapable of discussing things normally.

That aside, my point was Naruto is capable of making character specific strategies for whoever he fights. Whether he figures out he can counter Delta by overflowing her with ninjutsu or that he can counter Kaguya by not using ninjutsu whatsoever.

You say Goku spotted strategic flaws with Tiens approach so I'm telling you Naruto can change the his strategic approach to the fight based on his opponents abilities extremely quickly.

Goku learning to suppress his entire life signature to absolute zero, no heat, no sound, no ki, no breathing detectable, at God-tier power levels, through dedicated mastery under the tutelage of beings above Kami-sama, is being compared by you to... academy children not making footstep sounds.

I want you to sit with that.

You compared the complete erasure of a divine energy signature to children learning to walk quietly.

I'm not comparing it in general, I'm comparing it in the context of martial arts specifically.

Yeah in terms of energy manipulation it's much more impressive of course but in terms of body control it's not.

That is the quality of argument you just submitted.

No, you just didn't understand what I was saying.

Goku's guard being impenetrable is established independently of power scaling. An impenetrable guard means no openings, that is a technical mastery descriptor, not a power level descriptor. You can't dismiss a technique quality statement by citing a power tier.

I'm not? I didn't say anything that would be related to POWER scaling. I don't understand why do you keep trying to twist everything as powerscaling when nothing implies so

Frog Kata being "flawless" is also a description that exists within Naruto's power context. Goku's impenetrable guard exists within his. You cannot casually cross-reference them as equivalent without arguing why they're comparable in scope, which you haven't done.

I agree it's a verse-specific statement so they can mean 2 different things.
However you didn't do anything to imply why having an impenetrable defense would be superior in Gokus context than in other contexts so I didn't feel like it was necessary to explain any extraordinary setting either.
I also did tell you that I didn't actually list out Narutos skill feats and offered to do so.

You genuinely tried to argue that sensing attacks through microscopic air current shifts is worse than visual prediction.

Think about what you just said.

I don’t get why are you taking what I said out of context like that, that's so disingenuous.

It's more impressive in regards to senses. It's not more impressive in regards to mental power necessary to predict it.

I didn't say it's better or worse I gave exact context and explanation to how it compares to standard predictions.

Visual prediction requires a visible tell. Air current sensing requires detecting the physical displacement caused by motion at combat speeds, pressure waves, directional flow, velocity gradient, and processing all of that into an accurate read of angle, speed, and trajectory. Without seeing anything.

Yes, that's super impressive as a feat for his sense of touch. I wholeheartedly agree it's beyond any feat of physical feeling in Naruto.

But that doesn't mean the actual act of predicting itself is more impressive

King Kai, ranked above Kami-sama in martial arts mastery, staking his reputation on Goku's potential, predicting he would become the greatest warrior in the universe, and being correct... "doesn't amount to much."

Yes without expanding on what "greatest warrior in the universe" means it doesn't amount to much

You just used this exact logic "100 Z Warriors can't compare to his power" to dismiss my Piccolo feat as a power statement rather than a skill feat.

And then in the same response you cited Sasuke defeating 1000 shinobi as a comparative numbers argument.

Yes? My point was that the argument does NOT work and if it did Sasuke would have a better one.

I still stand by the feat being invalid as a skill feat, my point was to show even you did think it was valid it wouldn't make him better than Sasuke/Naruto.

Yes. Please do.
Break it down. I'm right here. I have sources, I have patience, and I have already demonstrated that every single technical category favors Goku with documented, cited evidence.

Sure. As long as you're not a completely asshole I'd be very happy to discuss it with you and break down Narutos feats.

Your move.

I'll drop a more in-depth argument for Naruto later today when I'm free.

I love how you ignored the fact Goku can also double his stats anyway to overwhelm Naruto, lmao.

I didn't. I only talked about your skill arguments for Goku, I didn't address the fight itself whatsoever.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So far Naruto's skill feats are, "He is comparable to X who can do this" but unlike Naruto, Goku actually performed the feats himself

Huh?
99% of the stuff I brought up so far was Naruto performing said feats. The only skill-chain I brought up was Momoshiki and Kinshiki to Sasuke but even that isn't really all that important.

Or are you referring to what Karo said? Because ngl I stopped reading his comments a while ago

 

[M3X_2.0]

So far Naruto's skill feats are, "He is comparable to X who can do this" but unlike Naruto, Goku actually performed the feats himself

Get outta here you goober

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Naruto is ******* dog walking this version of Goku in a pure fist fight, what are we talking about here?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I actually just saw what version of Naruto this is. He's dismembering Goku every time he applies minimal force to him. What are we even doing here.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I actually just saw what version of Naruto this is. He's dismembering Goku every time he applies minimal force to him. What are we even doing here.

Lmao I just realised with the way baryon mode works, every hit just ***** the shit out of kaioken

 

[Delusionaltx2]

So far from what i'm seeing goku is much more skilled but nard has better precog and stats

Think I'm leaning on nard high diffing for davids reasons and that life drain on top of the kaiokens drawbacks also seem like an issue here

will wait for more args before voting tho

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So far from what i'm seeing goku is much more skilled but nard has better precog and stats

Think I'm leaning on nard high diffing for davids reasons and that life drain on top of the kaiokens drawbacks also seem like an issue here

Goku has to play the fight perfectly while Naruto has to land one fatal hit that accidentally rips him in half because of the gargantuan LS difference.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Goku ain't even that much more skilled if at all

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Goku has to play the fight perfectly while Naruto has to land one fatal hit that accidentally rips him in half because of the gargantuan LS difference.

Thats not how LS works...

Like, if he grabs him or something then yea its GG but the most higher LS can do with a punch is just ragdoll him

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Goku ain't even that much more skilled if at all

Exactly everyone else's point. Goku is skilled enough to give Naruto a real fight but he's not gonna pull a Garou on him or something.

 

[R81handman]

Naruto in terms of tactics and hax and stats and experience against precog users via sharingan and analytical prediction beats Goku via durability negation and life manipulation. Goku mindset and love to spar will be his downfall as touching Baryon Mode Naruto or being touched by Bayon Mode Naruto. Goku may have better hand to hand combat skills but I see Naruto being a better tactile fighter with suprise attacks and combos. Isshiki battle experience of thousands of years and chakra fruits were still no match for Naruto skilled hands. and then there is the LS Naruto has can just grab Goku and drain his life force and not let go. We seen Naruto use Grappling moves and throws. and Goku in Buu arc still had not achieved the Ki Control in Super to use the kaioken for a long time.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Thats not how LS works...

Like, if he grabs him or something then yea its GG but the most higher LS can do with a punch is just ragdoll him

That's a pretty big issue since this Naruto uses LS in-character in combination with his strikes as shown by the time he wrapped his tails around Isshiki and then punched him so hard that his head almost compressed itself inwards before he was sent flying and that was a dude with at least vaguely comparable stats. If that same situation happens to Goku his head is getting removed from his body.

 

[MannyQ361]

Wouldn’t Goku’s Type 1 Immortality help against the life drain?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wouldn’t Goku’s Type 1 Immortality help against the life drain?

....What?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

That's a pretty big issue since this Naruto uses LS in-character in combination with his strikes

That dosen't really change the fact he still has to actually grab goku

as shown by the time he wrapped his tails around Isshiki and then punched him so hard that his head almost compressed itself inwards before he was sent flying and that was a dude with at least vaguely comparable stats.

Punch = AP feat

With a punch ur normally not lifting anything or exerting force for a prolonged period of time

This is no different from punching a wall hard enough to fragment it

Edit: if ur talking about him wraping his tails around him then sure but that's still a grab

If that same situation happens to Goku his head is getting removed from his body.

No it isn't; nard has like a 1.11x AP difference, he isn't gonna explode Goku from just punching him

 

[MannyQ361]

Well Goku is in his dead body for the early Buu Saga.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Wouldn’t Goku’s Type 1 Immortality help against the life drain?

Goku dosen't have that

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Well Goku is in his dead body for the early Buu Saga.

OP never specified if he was starting the fight already dead

and with how fighting while being dead works that would obv be more of an optional thing

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That dosen't really change the fact he still has to actually grab goku

Punch = AP feat

With a punch ur normally not lifting anything or exerting force for a prolonged period of time

This is no different from punching a wall hard enough to fragment it

No it isn't; nard has like a 1.11x AP difference, he isn't gonna explode Goku from just punching him

We literally have LS feats like this on the wiki, why would this be any different. I also didn't say Goku would explode, his body doesn't have the tensile strength to resist that much force behind it and would tear apart, not explode.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

We literally have LS feats like this on the wiki, why would this be any different.

Because those LS feats fall under very specific circumstances with the punch usually turning into some prolonged struggle that requires them to exert force for some prolonged period of time or them scaling in LS for some other reason

I also didn't say Goku would explode, his body doesn't have the tensile strength to resist that much force behind it and would tear apart, not explode.

Exploding and being torn apart basically means the same thing in this context but ok

Tensile strength is the amount of force something can withstand from being stretched/pulled

A punch does not stretch or pull anything, a grab will but not a punch

 

[karo_senpaii]

That dosen't really change the fact he still has to actually grab goku

Punch = AP feat

With a punch ur normally not lifting anything or exerting force for a prolonged period of time

This is no different from punching a wall hard enough to fragment it

Edit: if ur talking about him wraping his tails around him then sure but that's still a grab

No it isn't; nard has like a 1.11x AP difference, he isn't gonna explode Goku from just punching him

Goku isn't surviving the wrapping with the tails by the way..the tails would squash him to paste

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

 Snip

You're one of the calc people, can you please settle this argument for us? I'm like 99% certain Naruto will accidentally rip Goku into pieces if he hits him in the way I described.