Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Jinx666]

Solar Beam is typically 100% accurate, and the 'dodging' in itself (mainly just being a reflection of game mechanics) doesnt necessarily mean they dodged the beam as it was released and could simply be spot dodging. Solar Beam is usually telegraphed beforehand too given it needs a turn to charge so thats plenty of time to prepare.
Stuff like Sonic Boom too are always sure-fire hits which shouldnt be the case since theres lots of pokemon that surpass sound.

Pokemon is in a state on this wiki where any huge change will be incredibly longwinded and time-consuming, among many other outdated and inconsistencies across the profiles, but genuinely we don't need to put the average pokemon species at FTL if there isnt strong evidence in the mainline. Especially when our main reasoning is from a Pokemon Go calc that just uses default animations and is player-controlled.

 

[Arceus0x]

Solar Beam is typically 100% accurate, and the 'dodging' in itself (mainly just being a reflection of game mechanics) doesnt necessarily mean they dodged the beam as it was released and could simply be spot dodging. Solar Beam is usually telegraphed beforehand too given it needs a turn to charge so thats plenty of time to prepare.

Telegraphing doesn't really matter since you still need to dodge it when its fired, and it can be fired pretty much instantly at any direction

Stuff like Sonic Boom too are always sure-fire hits which shouldnt be the case since theres lots of pokemon that surpass sound.

Meaning that move accuracy is not really canon and more a game-mechanic, just as we see in many official animations and the anime.

Pokemon is in a state on this wiki where any huge change will be incredibly longwinded and time-consuming, among many other outdated and inconsistencies across the profiles, but genuinely we don't need to put the average pokemon species at FTL if there isnt strong evidence in the mainline.

Again, if we only go with what we see in the mainline, we ain't gonna get anything because there's barely any feats for anyone who isn't a legendary. Unironically the only non-statement AP feat we see that is worth our time is the Abomasnow storm feat and there's basically no speed feats either.

Especially when our main reasoning is from a Pokemon Go calc that just uses default animations and is player-controlled.

Nobody uses that anymore, a recent CRT established the anime calc above as the main one to be used. It's one of the few calcs we have on hand but there are more feats that are similar in the anime. Golem feat went into the supporting feats section.

 

[Jinx666]

Telegraphing doesn't really matter since you still need to dodge it when its fired, and it can be fired pretty much instantly at any direction

Well it does, because you could simply just dodge where they're aiming before the move is actually released. Solar Beam is a straight beam and would require the user to also actively aim where it goes. If a mon is faster or more evasive than the user, then its more than likely due to that. Otherwise the game wants you to believe it is normally 100% accurate.

Meaning that move accuracy is not really canon and more a game-mechanic, just as we see in many official animations and the anime.

Well we cant exactly pick and choose what game mechanics we use and dont. If you cant normally dodge a solar beam in-game without using stuff like evasion then its not really usable for their speed. All the Pokemon in-game are put on a similar standing (like how you can still 'damage' an Arceus with a caterpie using tackle), so technically every pokemon can be FTL just for having a chance to dodge a solar beam via evasion. It just doesnt work

Again, if we only go with what we see in the mainline, we ain't gonna get anything because there's barely any feats for anyone who isn't a legendary. Unironically the only non-statement AP feat we see that is worth our time is the Abomasnow storm feat and there's basically no speed feats either.

Im sure averages can be scraped by with moves. If that means that pokemon have a weaker basis and we aren't relying on anime and cross-scaling different continuities then thats fine. There were foundations before this entire canon split.

Abomasnows storm feat in itself is super passive, and there are multiple Abomasnow in the area to contribute to its size. The exact same weather conditions can be replicated by any mon with a weather move but that doesnt really speak to their AP output so i'm not sure why we're using that for scaling anyway.

Nobody uses that anymore, a recent CRT established the anime calc above as the main one to be used. It's one of the few calcs we have on hand but there are more feats that are similar in the anime. Golem feat went into the supporting feats section.

Its still on most of the pages that even give a reasoning for their speed beyond 'comparable to other fully-evolved pokemon', so it very clearly hasn't been changed. I was also getting smoke for replacing the golem feat with the anime feat a while ago so idk what the CRT you're referring to is.
It shouldnt be supporting either, the whole context of it is faulty at best (Pokemon Go mechanics shouldnt be used to scale with period).

 

[Arceus0x]

Well it does, because you could simply just dodge where they're aiming before the move is actually released. Solar Beam is a straight beam and would require the user to also actively aim where it goes. If a mon is faster or more evasive than the user, then its more than likely due to that. Otherwise the game wants you to believe it is normally 100% accurate.

Aiming in one's general direction would be all that's required, we see it in the animations of the moves, so no more telegraphing than any other move.

Well we cant exactly pick and choose what game mechanics we use and dont.

But we can decide what is a game mechanic and what is not. Accuracy is a game mechanic, not to mention accuracy of moves changes throughout generations, some gaining 100% accuracy whilst others losing.

If you cant normally dodge a solar beam in-game without using stuff like evasion then its not really usable for their speed.

But with support from the anime it does work. Again, we literally just don't have any feats in the games.

All the Pokemon in-game are put on a similar standing (like how you can still 'damage' an Arceus with a caterpie using tackle), so technically every pokemon can be FTL just for having a chance to dodge a solar beam via evasion. It just doesnt work

Which only proves why it should be supplemented with anime and manga feats rather than rely on itself.

Im sure averages can be scraped by with moves.

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel here, there's literally nothing feat-wise and nothing is consistent.

If that means that pokemon have a weaker basis and we aren't relying on anime and cross-scaling different continuities then thats fine. There were foundations before this entire canon split.

Splitting continuities would ruin scaling for the verse as it would cause holes within it, we'd be scraping the most barebones game-mechanic-infused details just to get scaling when we can use anime and get proper feats instead.

Abomasnows storm feat in itself is super passive, and there are multiple Abomasnow in the area to contribute to its size. The exact same weather conditions can be replicated by any mon with a weather move but that doesnt really speak to their AP output so i'm not sure why we're using that for scaling anyway.

Because we are using that already for scaling and it's specifically that Abomasnow that is causing the blizzard since it stops the moment he decides to stop in the game.

Its still on most of the pages that even give a reasoning for their speed beyond 'comparable to other fully-evolved pokemon', so it very clearly hasn't been changed.

Obviously rewriting it will take time that most people have. Instead, I have linked the feat on Golem's page so if anyone goes to Golem's page they can see the main feat that we use.

I was also getting smoke for replacing the golem feat with the anime feat a while ago so idk what the CRT you're referring to is.

You were getting smoke because you didn't make a CRT. A guy came, made a CRT, got it accepted and then had it closed, I helped apply it. Idk why you weren't there, pretty sure it was linked in this thread too.

It shouldnt be supporting either, the whole context of it is faulty at best (Pokemon Go mechanics shouldnt be used to scale with period).

You were just saying we should rely on the accuracy mechanics but animatio mechanics are a no-go? Seems inconsistent to me chief.

 

[Jinx666]

Aiming in one's general direction would be all that's required, we see it in the animations of the moves, so no more telegraphing than any other move.

Solar Beam takes an entire turn to charge normally. Thats a telegraph beforehand, more than most moves get. Its not like its able to instantly be fired.

But we can decide what is a game mechanic and what is not. Accuracy is a game mechanic, not to mention accuracy of moves changes throughout generations, some gaining 100% accuracy whilst others losing.

Or we could just not cherrypick.

But with support from the anime it does work. Again, we literally just don't have any feats in the games.

If the mainline has been going on for ages and you dont have any FTL feats to give to the average mons, then maybe it isnt FTL. Thats not normally a good excuse to try and mix continuities so that we can get Pokemon up to as high a tier as possible but thats whats happened.

Which only proves why it should be supplemented with anime and manga feats rather than rely on itself.

Why 'should it'? So that the tiers can be higher? The wiki doesnt composite anymore, and the anime and manga are very clearly separate continuities. If you cant find anything in mainline (or even just secondary games that have some canon backing to it like the Pokemon Ranger series) then perhaps we dont need to make the stats the way they are.

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel here, there's literally nothing feat-wise and nothing is consistent.

Crazy to believe with a mainline series like Pokemon. Just because the anime gives more concrete feats doesnt mean there arent things feat-wise. You might just have to settle for the game-side of the verse (on average, like species of Pokemon) just being weaker.

Splitting continuities would ruin scaling for the verse as it would cause holes within it, we'd be scraping the most barebones game-mechanic-infused details just to get scaling when we can use anime and get proper feats instead.

Idk how many times you gotta repeat it but lets stick to saying it one time. We cant just split continuities cause its easier and lets you make the Pokemon FTL. Obviously thats whats happened with a big push but obviously the verse isnt exactly up to the quality it could be

Because we are using that already for scaling and it's specifically that Abomasnow that is causing the blizzard since it stops the moment he decides to stop in the game.

Still passive weather conditions, and iirc it was a special Abomasnow that Team Flare were specifically after. Doesnt really mean it scales to every single abomasnow, let alone every final-evolved form, let alone its AP (it was literally getting bullied by Team Flare members kicking it iirc?)

Obviously rewriting it will take time that most people have. Instead, I have linked the feat on Golem's page so if anyone goes to Golem's page they can see the main feat that we use.

The Golem feat should jsut be scrapped period. It makes 0 sense and its basis is faulty, on a game thats hardly even worth considering in canon. It shouldnt even act as a support.

You were getting smoke because you didn't make a CRT. A guy came, made a CRT, got it accepted and then had it closed, I helped apply it. Idk why you weren't there, pretty sure it was linked in this thread too.

Well keep applying it then so there isnt anymore confusion. It's still a pretty potent point that we were letting this feat be the main source of speed scaling for years, completely seriously. We dont need Pokemon to scale to FTL on average that badly.

Heres a bunch of profiles its still seemingly on (Or we can start talking about trimming down the number of profiles on this verse for a complete revamp).

You were just saying we should rely on the accuracy mechanics but animatio mechanics are a no-go? Seems inconsistent to me chief.

No, I wasnt 'chief'. I've made it pretty clear throughout my time here that I dont agree with scaling using game mechanics (like 'leveling'), or mixing the continuities (especially to the extreme that Sean was pushing). Even if it means heavily nerfing the verse in terms of games for the species profiles, then its just what has to be done imo.

You were saying that because Solar Beam can be dodged, it would mean that pokemon are FTL. The whole 'dodging' mechanic in Pokemon is based on a gameplay stat. If you really wanna use that, then you gotta consider that the move is 100% accurate normally and requires external factors in order to evade. Maybe if the evidence isnt strong enough for FTL Pokemon, and theres a bunch of antifeats in the same logic (Also how Pokedex entries quite literally say moving at Mach speeds is impressive on the strongest-types of fully evolved Pokemon), we shouldnt be using it.

 

[Arceus0x]

Solar Beam takes an entire turn to charge normally. Thats a telegraph beforehand, more than most moves get. Its not like its able to instantly be fired.

It gets charged up but it doesn't matter, it stays in one place as a big pile of energy and then its fired. If we look at it that way, most moves are telepgraphed by movement anyway.

Or we could just not cherrypick.

It's not cherrypicking if something is blatantly a game mechanic and something else isn't.

If the mainline has been going on for ages and you dont have any FTL feats to give to the average mons, then maybe it isnt FTL.

At this point you're just ignoring what I've been saying. THERE ARE NO FEATS. GAMES DON'T HAVE FEATS. Barely any feats in the games at all and you're asking for mainline? I can apply this type of logic to basically every feat that isn't literally just smashing a boulder, you know, since there aren't any in the games, again.

Thats not normally a good excuse to try and mix continuities so that we can get Pokemon up to as high a tier as possible but thats whats happened.

This isn't about tiers, this is about having scaling in general, something we wouldn't have if we deleted everything that isn't in the games.

Why 'should it'? So that the tiers can be higher? The wiki doesnt composite anymore, and the anime and manga are very clearly separate continuities. If you cant find anything in mainline (or even just secondary games that have some canon backing to it like the Pokemon Ranger series) then perhaps we dont need to make the stats the way they are.

This isn't about how high the tiers are, this is about not having feats that we can work with in the games because that's how the games are built. The verse isn't a composite, we've got anime characters in the game (which you really like to dismiss cause you don't vibe with it) and the pokemon have the same pokdex descriptions throughout the continuities, meaning that in the verse scientists took a look at Pokemon and came to the exact same description of them despite being in separate universes. The official animations and OVAs for the games work pretty much the exact same way as the anime so the differences end there.

Crazy to believe with a mainline series like Pokemon. Just because the anime gives more concrete feats doesnt mean there arent things feat-wise. You might just have to settle for the game-side of the verse (on average, like species of Pokemon) just being weaker.

Again, get it through to yourself that this isn't just being weaker, it's having f-all when it comes to feats in general. If there is material specifically made to expand on the world of the verse then there's no reason not to use it. Just because you hate it doesn't mean it ain't right.

Idk how many times you gotta repeat it but lets stick to saying it one time. We cant just split continuities cause its easier and lets you make the Pokemon FTL. Obviously thats whats happened with a big push

Idk how many times I have to repeat this but the canon split is wrong and the continuities clearly intersect. I've already presented evidence for that before, the canon unsplit thread presented evidence for it, just because you're gonna ignore it I won't entertain it any longer.

Still passive weather conditions, and iirc it was a special Abomasnow that Team Flare were specifically after. Doesnt really mean it scales to every single abomasnow, let alone every final-evolved form.

We use a wild lvl 100 Pokemon as the basis for our ratings. This Abomasnow wasn't an alpha or a totem, meaning it was just a strong wild Abomasnow, which alligns with what we scale.

The Golem feat should jsut be scrapped period. It makes 0 sense and its basis is faulty, on a game thats hardly even worth considering in canon. It shouldnt even act as a support.

Seems like bias to me

Well keep applying it then so there isnt anymore confusion.

Do it yourself lmao, I do what I want when I can, if you want something changed then do it yourself

It's still a pretty potent point that we were letting this feat be the main source of speed scaling for years.

I wasn't letting anything in, pretty sure we had a better feat but something happened to it, don't remember what. Still, we now have a better one.

Heres a bunch of profiles its still seemingly on (Or we can start talking about trimming down the number of profiles on this verse for a complete revamp).

I don't mind trimming down some profiles that are heavily outdated or just aren't relevant or popular. I think most of that applies to Kanto though as they're the ones with a billion profiles.

No, I wasnt 'chief'. I've made it pretty clear throughout my time here that I dont agree with scaling using game mechanics (like 'leveling'), or mixing the continuities (especially to the extreme that Sean was pushing). Even if it means heavily nerfing the verse in terms of games for the species profiles, then its just what has to be done imo.

Nerfing and cutting off a proper source of feats are different things. It's not really a nerf if character A who had scaling with supplementary alt timeline material suddenly just lost all of it. This isn't a case of changing a big tier to a lower tier, this could get some pokemon into unknown territory, not to mention I genuienly disagree with splitting continuities for the most part.

You were saying that because Solar Beam can be dodged, it would mean that pokemon are FTL.

I suggest it as support for the fact that we get our FTL stuff from the anime.

The whole 'dodging' mechanic in Pokemon is based on a gameplay stat.

But unlike the accuracy stats it's actually a thing that a Pokemon is said to do. numbers in the background are game mechanics, actual statements are part of the lore.

If you really wanna use that, then you gotta consider that the move is 100% accurate normally and requires external factors in order to evade.

Which is again, a game mechanic, and 100% accurate attacks are constantly dodged in the OVAs released for the games.

Maybe if the evidence isnt strong enough for FTL Pokemon, and theres a bunch of antifeats in the same logic (Also how Pokedex entries quite literally say moving at Mach speeds is impressive on the strongest-types of fully evolved Pokemon), we shouldnt be using it.

No. The supersonic scaling is ass too considering the pokedex acknowledges lightning speed only to ignore it when talking about Pokemon who dodge lightning.

 

[DarkLock92]

Solar beam fires instantly as a plus move in ZA anyway

 

[Jinx666]

Tell you what im not wasting today in a big quote text post abt this. This all wraps it up

• The verse doesnt need to be FTL on average if theres no strong evidence (and relies on mixing continuities to do so). We care more about accuracy than just whether the verse looks powerful (at least we should). Pokedex entries of Hypersonic-Massively Hypersonic sounds completely fine (guaranteed its more consistent than the FTL stuff you're saying is non-existent in mainline games).
• No matter how much people want to mix canons just to make Pokemon stronger, it doesnt change the fact the anime is a separate continuity and plays differently (given its an actual animated written story over a video game). Using only anime stuff to scale mainline games will always be faulty to that extent.
• The Golem feat was replaced for the exact reason that its bad. Theres an anime calc which is much better, but the feat as a whole is reliant on a mobile game (that takes place in our world?), using default animations and being player controlled. Its specifically using a pokemon that is slow to try and upscale the verse. Using it as support suggests you wanna use it for consistency purposes, which ignores how completely disingenuine the calc is. Its unusable, period.
• Im not changing any of the speed stuff anymore, I was told not to and it was never something I would agree with in the first place (it was petty). Dont brag about how this all got changed, yet it still persists to be on all the pages. Until its gone, the wiki is still blatantly using a feat it gets clowned on for doing so and im not taking responsibility for that
• Just because a pokemon can avoid a scratch or smthn doesnt mean it can dodge a Solar Beam naturally. Using game mechanics too closely is bs, so given how difficult you're claiming it is to make Pokemon FTL (on average) without separate continuities, then maybe it just shouldnt be argued for.
• We'd need to cut a LOT of profiles, but if no one can agree on how we use continuity (should be separate) for the sake of needing to make every Pokemon FTL thenit isnt going to go anywhere. The first step however is to massively cut down on the workload since its obviously too daunting for everyone to make proper change, but people are also unwilling to consider that this compositing isnt the best.

 

[Arceus0x]

Considering this completely depends on splitting continuity and ignoring what makes them united, I aint gonna entertain it any longer. I've already said what I said, the replies I see are repetitions of the same thing over and over again.

 

[Jinx666]

Considering this completely depends on splitting continuity and ignoring what makes them united, I aint gonna entertain it any longer. I've already said what I said, the replies I see are repetitions of the same thing over and over again.

Just being under the same franchise, and 'references' like being able to obtain Ash Greninja or w/e (thats not the actual anime stuff) that rely more on the meta aspects (just appealing to consumers), isnt enough to make stuff like the anime and game continuities the same. Its vastly outnumbered by the many showings that the anime operates completely differently
If you're struggling to find basic FTL feats in a franchise that is over 30 years old, has been active throughout with contents that 95% of the verses on this wiki lack then its simple: Pokemon isnt FTL on average

 

[Arceus0x]

Just being under the same franchise, and 'references' like being able to obtain Ash Greninja or w/e (thats not the actual anime stuff) that rely more on the meta aspects (just appealing to consumers), isnt enough to make stuff like the anime and game continuities the same. Its vastly outnumbered by the many showings that the anime operates completely differently

There's a lot more arguments than just that and calling them "references" is just bias on your part. If you actuall bothered to read the docs and the thread that I linked well before about the canon unsplit then you would've seen interviews that directly explain that the Pokemon timeline is less of a timeline and rather a setting, with the setting being kept consistent and the anime being more of an alternate universe within the setting and the manga literally being more accurate to the vision of one of the developers, showing things that couldn't be shown in the game due to limitations.

If you're struggling to find basic FTL feats in a franchise that is over 30 years old, has been active throughout with contents that 95% of the verses on this wiki lack then its simple: Pokemon isnt FTL on average

You keep conveniently ignoring that I said time and time again that the games don't show feats in general, which is different from being inconsistent. Considering that, I will also conveniently ignore your points about this from now on since the only thing you can do is repeat the same talking points again and again.

 

[Jinx666]

There's a lot more arguments than just that and calling them "references" is just bias on your part. If you actuall bothered to read the docs and the thread that I linked well before about the canon unsplit then you would've seen interviews that directly explain that the Pokemon timeline is less of a timeline and rather a setting, with the setting being kept consistent and the anime being more of an alternate universe within the setting and the manga literally being more accurate to the vision of one of the developers, showing things that couldn't be shown in the game due to limitations.

There isnt, and they are references for the most part. You think Ash Ketchum really exists in the game universe just because like, his picture is referenced in Sun and Moon or smthn? You think the Pikachu with his hat is the exact same pikachu we see in the anime, or the 'dragonite' we got as a mystery gift (event mystery gifts should NOT be taken seriously) is his real dragonite? The multiverse was used to explain allll of this but that doesnt mean we can suddenly scale them to different continuites lol. This is like if Dragon Ball scaling made Xeno canon just because its another branch of the multiverse

Taking advantage of the fact the Pokemon creators really dgaf about how the continuity affects the powerscaling, Pokemon quite obviously is not the same in both the games and anime. fundamentally. The characters like Cynthia, Leon (who were still champion) and Lusamine that appear in both are quite obviously different, the fact that Ash takes up pretty much all of the player character's storyline events with his own twist. Pokemon isn't suddenly 'consistent' from a continuity aspect, let alone powerscaling, because the creators say so. They all quite obviously follow their own similar, but different storybeats. And like every other verse, SHOULD be treated as such. If you're admitting to composites just so you can get more feats (the games arent lacking feats just cause the anime has better ones) then thats quite blatantly wrong

You keep conveniently ignoring that I said time and time again that the games don't show feats in general, which is different from being inconsistent. Considering that, I will also conveniently ignore your points about this from now on since the only thing you can do is repeat the same talking points again and again.

They do show feats, with plenty of Pokedex statements we can scale from, they just dont show the feats you want or as plentiful as the anime (they are different mediums). We most definitely can scale Pokemon fine, and we were doing so before the canon split (with it being like, Large Building - Mountain level or smthn based on the pokedex? Obviously ignoring the big antifeats like Lanturn), but then it was decided this needed to be the only verse that composited and for what?

If anything, if this is the only time a Pokemon has reacted to and deflected a solar beam as an FTL feat then its more of an outlier. Surely this isnt the ONLY CASE in this franchises' 30+ years. If it is then this verse is not FTL on its average Pokemon

 

[Lou_change]

Just being under the same franchise, and 'references' like being able to obtain Ash Greninja or w/e (thats not the actual anime stuff) that rely more on the meta aspects (just appealing to consumers), isnt enough to make stuff like the anime and game continuities the same. Its vastly outnumbered by the many showings that the anime operates completely differently
If you're struggling to find basic FTL feats in a franchise that is over 30 years old, has been active throughout with contents that 95% of the verses on this wiki lack then its simple: Pokemon isnt FTL on average

There are less cases where the fundamental aspects of pokemon as a whole are changed across the multiverse than the reverse. Some individual pokemon might be stronger, but they don't disprove the rule. Anyway shouldn't the friendship dodge mechanic or tangled feet prove speed Dazzling Gleam, Flash Cannon, Power Gem, Flash, Lumina Crash, Fickle Beam, and Signal Beam are all one turn light based moves that are learned by normal pokemon.

 

[Jinx666]

Anyway shouldn't the friendship dodge mechanic or tangled feet prove speed Dazzling Gleam, Flash Cannon, Power Gem, Flash, Lumina Crash, Fickle Beam, and Signal Beam are all one turn light based moves that are learned by normal pokemon.

No...
This is all hindering on the game mechanic aspect. Simply learning moves that shoot light beams doesnt qualify you for FTL, and mechanics like accuracy dont translate well to actual tangible powerscaling.
Heck if anything, theres no light-based subcategory of move unlike sound. We cant really ever be sure a lot of those moves have the same light-based qualities. Solar Beam feels like the only one i can think of.

 

[Arceus0x]

Many of the above qualify for light
All are called light
All travel in a straight line or dissipitate naturally like Dazzling gleam

Flash is straight up a flash of light
Signal Beam is originally unique to Illumise and was a lightbug Pokemon move, as in, the light from a lightbug
Power Gem is unique to Pokemon who have or can summon gems, the light comes out of them, suggesting it refracts (think the red stone from jojo) and is one of the main moves of Necrozma

I would comment on more but content restrictions in my country have made connection inconsistent and thus I genuienly cannot access Bulbapedia rn.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wonder how many speed anti-feats the anime got

 

[Arceus0x]

Wonder how many speed anti-feats the anime got

coutning anti-feats for anime is basically like shooting yourself in the head. Pokemon competes with Marvel and DC for how many bs moments they can have that ignore the scaling. Just as an example, in Sun and Moon Pikachu was threatened by...a fall from like the 3rd floor...even though he jumps that high constantly...
In short, it's best to pay attention to what is actually being dodged and not being dodged. Lightning is dodged constantly, Sound is dodged constantly and whenever one of the moves above are used they are also dodged.

 

[Lou_change]

This is all hindering on the game mechanic aspect. Simply learning moves that shoot light beams doesnt qualify you for FTL, and mechanics like accuracy dont translate well to actual tangible powerscaling.
Heck if anything, theres no light-based subcategory of move unlike sound. We cant really ever be sure a lot of those moves have the same light-based qualities. Solar Beam feels like the only one i can think of.

I don't think that is what hindering means.

 

[Jinx666]

Many of the above qualify for light
All are called light
All travel in a straight line or dissipitate naturally like Dazzling gleam

Flash is straight up a flash of light
Signal Beam is originally unique to Illumise and was a lightbug Pokemon move, as in, the light from a lightbug
Power Gem is unique to Pokemon who have or can summon gems, the light comes out of them, suggesting it refracts (think the red stone from jojo) and is one of the main moves of Necrozma

K now prove theyre dodgeable outside of game mechanics. Stuff like 'was a lightbug pokemon move' and a move that summons gems isnt the strongest piece of evidence.

I don't think that is what hindering means.

It is, and id rather you reply to the actual point than trying to zoom in on a word. If this is reliant on game mechanics and how these moves can theoretically 'miss', then it'll crumble the second people dont actually take that seriously (which as your friend also argues, using game mechanics for definitive speeds isnt a good idea)

 

[Arceus0x]

K now prove theyre dodgeable outside of game mechanics. Stuff like 'was a lightbug pokemon move' and a move that summons gems isnt the strongest piece of evidence.

Official OVAs for the games show that 100% accuracy moves can be dodged (example: aura sphere in that one Bidoof short) and they're also clearly not 100% accurate in Z-A.

 

[Jinx666]

Notice how you didnt say solar beam or any light-adjacent move? How much do you need to stretch to try and justify FTL average Pokemon?
Dont exactly think 'OVAs' count towards game continuity either. This verse is cooked

 

[Lou_change]

K now prove theyre dodgeable outside of game mechanics

Why? It is a video game.

 

[Jinx666]

Why? It is a video game.

Wdym why??? You do realise verses and their actual scaling dont hinge on game mechanics. A level 5 caterpie doing 1HP damage to Arceus with tackle doesnt mean its now Low 2-C.

 

[Lou_change]

Wdym why??? You do realise verses and their actual scaling dont hinge on game mechanics. A level 5 caterpie doing 1HP damage to Arceus with tackle doesnt mean its now Low 2-C.

Yeah so unlike what you are talking about there is a somewhat detailed explanation on why that doesn't work on the game mechanic page

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah so unlike what you are talking about there is a somewhat detailed explanation on why that doesn't work on the game mechanic page

what are you even saying? Why it doesnt work?? Yeah, thats what im saying too.

Using game mechanics of a game over the story progression, and trying to claim all Pokemon are FTL because there are ways for them to 'dodge solar beam' is just purely incorrect

 

[Lou_change]

what are you even saying? Why it doesnt work?? Yeah, thats what im saying too.

Using game mechanics of a game over the story progression, and trying to claim all Pokemon are FTL because there are ways for them to 'dodge solar beam' is just purely incorrect

Incorrect we can use game mechanics unless story indicates otherwise

 

[Jinx666]

Incorrect we can use game mechanics unless story indicates otherwise

Maybe thats why this verse is completely unorganised... Cause you're reaaaaally abusing

So anyway yeah, Solar Beam is 100% accurate normally going by game mechanics, so you should agree theres no FTL scaling to be made using it

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

The question is: why scale Zygarde in its Legendary form if it doesn't have any planet-level feats? In the anime, Ash Ketchum from Pokémon XYZ scales against a 50% Zygarde, which is much weaker than when it was in Alola.

Furthermore, Ash is comparable to Gladion, who is established as his toughest rival at that point, placing him far above any character from Kalos in XYZ. However, both Ash and Gladion are weaker until almost the end, implying that the Tapus are superior to 50% Zygarde, as well as Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre.

This is reinforced by the fact that the Ash at the beginning of Pokémon Sun & Moon wasn't even able to scratch Tapu Koko.

And that's made clear.

 

[Lynieryz]

Maybe thats why this verse is completely unorganised... Cause you're reaaaaally abusing

So anyway yeah, Solar Beam is 100% accurate normally going by game mechanics, so you should agree theres no FTL scaling to be made using it

100% accuracy and "always hit" are different; the game itself distinguishes between moves with 100% accuracy and "always hit," 100% accuracy can still miss if the target is more evasive or if the user suffers a debuff. This is different from "always hit," which hits even in situations where 100% accuracy misses.

 

[Lou_change]

Maybe thats why this verse is completely unorganised... Cause you're reaaaaally abusing

Maybe just maybe you are wrong.

So anyway yeah, Solar Beam is 100% accurate normally going by game mechanics, so you should agree theres no FTL scaling to be made using it

Given they dodge in time with your shout and how the anime has trainers tell pokemon to dodge pokemon might just not put that much effort into dodging normally

 

[Arceus0x]

The question is: why scale Zygarde in its Legendary form if it doesn't have any planet-level feats? In the anime, Ash Ketchum from Pokémon XYZ scales against a 50% Zygarde, which is much weaker than when it was in Alola.

Furthermore, Ash is comparable to Gladion, who is established as his toughest rival at that point, placing him far above any character from Kalos in XYZ. However, both Ash and Gladion are weaker until almost the end, implying that the Tapus are superior to 50% Zygarde, as well as Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre.

This is reinforced by the fact that the Ash at the beginning of Pokémon Sun & Moon wasn't even able to scratch Tapu Koko.

And that's made clear.

I am not sure I fully understood your question, but Gladion wasn't really his toughest rival to the fullest extent.

Alain's Mega Charizard X was barely holding its own against 50% Zygarde. MCX proceeded to then beat Ash-Greninja in 3 hits. Ash-Greninja was certainly well above Pikachu at that time. Pikachu then got stronger and then Ash fought Gladion. Gladion was only able to hold his own against Ash because he had a Sylvally, which is a pokemon made to slay UBs, and his father's Zoroark, which has been trained for God knows how long.
In short, nothing really suggests Zygarde is that much weaker than the Tapus, as Pikachu at the end of XY was basically unable to do much damage to a non-mega evolved Alain's Charizard.
So, 50% Zygarde > MCX >> base Charizard >> Pikachu

It works itself out.

 

[Lynieryz]

I am not sure I fully understood your question, but Gladion wasn't really his toughest rival to the fullest extent.

Alain's Mega Charizard X was barely holding its own against 50% Zygarde. MCX proceeded to then beat Ash-Greninja in 3 hits. Ash-Greninja was certainly well above Pikachu at that time. Pikachu then got stronger and then Ash fought Gladion. Gladion was only able to hold his own against Ash because he had a Sylvally, which is a pokemon made to slay UBs, and his father's Zoroark, which has been trained for God knows how long.
In short, nothing really suggests Zygarde is that much weaker than the Tapus, as Pikachu at the end of XY was basically unable to do much damage to a non-mega evolved Alain's Charizard.
So, 50% Zygarde > MCX >> base Charizard >> Pikachu

It works itself out.

And where do Primal Groudon/Kyogre fit into this? Remember that Alain's MCX went head-to-head against Primal Groudon's strongest attack; MCX might not be on the same level, but it definitely downscales.

 

[Jinx666]

100% accuracy and "always hit" are different; the game itself distinguishes between moves with 100% accuracy and "always hit," 100% accuracy can still miss if the target is more evasive or if the user suffers a debuff. This is different from "always hit," which hits even in situations where 100% accuracy misses.

Missing =/= Dodging. Missing is more to do with the actual user of the move missing, and if thats distinguished from the opponent dodging then theres no argument. Unless theres an example of a pokemon dodging midway to the move being fired (the move animation doesnt play when a move misses), then theres nothing saying they dodged by reacting TO the solar beam.

Given they dodge in time with your shout and how the anime has trainers tell pokemon to dodge pokemon might just not put that much effort into dodging normally

No, they dont lol. The trainer doesnt tell any of their mons to 'dodge' in the games, they just yell out move commands. You gotta make up so much stuff for this narrative.

 

[Arceus0x]

And where do Primal Groudon/Kyogre fit into this? Remember that Alain's MCX went head-to-head against Primal Groudon's strongest attack; MCX might not be on the same level, but it definitely downscales.

Could work out. PG & PK don't actually have any proper scaling beyond some vague scaling to the meteor which I'm pretty sure is just wrong.

I would try and plan out revisions for the legendaries to give them some breathing space but currently even my more casual revisions are getting 0 attention from staff. Even the staff that did evaluate pokemon just up and vanished since the last time.

 

[Lynieryz]

Missing =/= Dodging. Missing is more to do with the actual user of the move missing, and if thats distinguished from the opponent dodging then theres no argument. Unless theres an example of a pokemon dodging midway to the move being fired (the move animation doesnt play when a move misses), then theres nothing saying they dodged by reacting TO the solar beam.

Maybe thats why this verse is completely unorganised... Cause you're reaaaaally abusing

So anyway yeah, Solar Beam is 100% accurate normally going by game mechanics, so you should agree theres no FTL scaling to be made using it

So, what you said makes no sense at all. If Missing and Dodging are different in relation to 100%, then you can't use that as an argument to say Solar Beam isn't avoidable as you did.

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

I am not sure I fully understood your question, but Gladion wasn't really his toughest rival to the fullest extent.

Alain's Mega Charizard X was barely holding its own against 50% Zygarde. MCX proceeded to then beat Ash-Greninja in 3 hits. Ash-Greninja was certainly well above Pikachu at that time. Pikachu then got stronger and then Ash fought Gladion. Gladion was only able to hold his own against Ash because he had a Sylvally, which is a pokemon made to slay UBs, and his father's Zoroark, which has been trained for God knows how long.
In short, nothing really suggests Zygarde is that much weaker than the Tapus, as Pikachu at the end of XY was basically unable to do much damage to a non-mega evolved Alain's Charizard.
So, 50% Zygarde > MCX >> base Charizard >> Pikachu

It works itself out.

There is nothing vague about this; it is explicitly confirmed that Gladion was called Ash’s strongest rival.


決勝戦 最強ライバル対決
行け、最強の敵がついに始まる!


The narrative refers to Gladion twice in the same way, clearly emphasizing him as Ash’s strongest opponent at that point.


The claim about Alain's Mega Charizard X barely defending itself against a 50% Zygarde does not automatically prove a massive gap, because later scaling in Pokémon Sun & Moon shows different results.


It is also false to say that Gladion only kept up because of Silvally and Zoroark. Gladion’s Lycanroc is directly comparable to Ash’s own Lycanroc. More importantly, Gladion’s Lycanroc explicitly pushed Incineroar from Professor Kukui, despite Kukui’s Incineroar being superior to Empoleon, who had previously dominated Pikachu.


On top of that, Melmetal did most of the work in that battle anyway.


I also do not know what battle people are watching, because even a tired Pikachu made Charizard drop to one knee with a single attack, and it is explicitly confirmed that Ash had grown stronger than ever by the Alola League trailers and statements. Ignoring that means going directly against canon evidence.


Because of that, the difference between Ash at the end of Pokémon Sun & Moon and Ash in Pokémon XYZ is not small at all — it is enormous.

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

I am not sure I fully understood your question, but Gladion wasn't really his toughest rival to the fullest extent.

Alain's Mega Charizard X was barely holding its own against 50% Zygarde. MCX proceeded to then beat Ash-Greninja in 3 hits. Ash-Greninja was certainly well above Pikachu at that time. Pikachu then got stronger and then Ash fought Gladion. Gladion was only able to hold his own against Ash because he had a Sylvally, which is a pokemon made to slay UBs, and his father's Zoroark, which has been trained for God knows how long.
In short, nothing really suggests Zygarde is that much weaker than the Tapus, as Pikachu at the end of XY was basically unable to do much damage to a non-mega evolved Alain's Charizard.
So, 50% Zygarde > MCX >> base Charizard >> Pikachu

It works itself out.

Aside from that, ignoring that it's a confirmed fact, explicitly, Gladion, at that moment, Pikachu climbs above Solgaleo and Radiant Sun in the anime.

 

[Lou_change]

Missing =/= Dodging. Missing is more to do with the actual user of the move missing, and if thats distinguished from the opponent dodging then theres no argument. Unless theres an example of a pokemon dodging midway to the move being fired (the move animation doesnt play when a move misses), then theres nothing saying they dodged by reacting TO the solar beam.

No, they dont lol. The trainer doesnt tell any of their mons to 'dodge' in the games, they just yell out move commands. You gotta make up so much stuff for this narrative.

You miss if you are dodged anyway the description for friendship dodge <Pokémon> avoided the move in time with your shout!

 

[Jinx666]

So, what you said makes no sense at all. If Missing and Dodging are different in relation to 100%, then you can't use that as an argument to say Solar Beam isn't avoidable as you did.

Im only using the game mechanic reasons people are trying to push as to why Solar Beam wouldnt be avoidable. So thanks for calling out the flaw in logic of it

Normally yeah, Solar Beam is able to be dodged by characters who are FTL. Game mechanics dont let people do that without added stuff like evasion and accuracy tho.

You miss if you are dodged anyway the description for friendship dodge <Pokémon> avoided the move in time with your shout!

friendship dodge is a game mechanic that lets a level 1 pokemon survive the craziest stuff. This also requires...a pokemon owned by a trainer, and having a bond with them. Thats not comparable to species, obviously

 

[Arceus0x]

Aside from that, ignoring that it's a confirmed fact, explicitly, Gladion, at that moment, Pikachu climbs above Solgaleo and Radiant Sun in the anime.

Technically it would somewhat fit with how we see it in the manga, with 50% Zygarde getting absolutely mogged by UN only to match it in power with the 50% forme. Still, with the average between the depictions I'd say 50% Zygarde would still end up around Tapu level, just not including Guardian de Alola.