(Mega Man upgrade and downgrade) - I hid myself while i upgrade myself

[Crimson_cordx]

I've been planning this for a few days, and there shouldn't be anything stopping me from sending it, so here we go.

I'll throw in the most important thing right away, which is a speed upgrade.

Spoiler: IMMEASURABLE SPEED

Basically, in X-Dive, it's saying that errors programs can travel through time using their teleport. This in itself is just time travel for the teleport, but the thing is that the characters can constantly react to or keep up with the teleport.

By this wiki rules, a character gets Immeasurable Speed if they "can go in linear time through sheer speed" so everyone who can keep up with the teleport falls into this category.

This'd 100% includes mmx and onwards, since they upscales the robot masters that can keep up with the teleport by sheer speed.

Agree:

Disagree: @Migue79 @AlloyAmi @AguilaR202 @TyranoDoom30 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Thread Mod) @RaikiKurohane99 (Translation Staff)

Neutral:

But if that's not solid enough, I'll bring another argument, this time for Infinite Speed.

Spoiler: INFINITE SPEED

This one is quite simple: The Hunters can easily escape the singularity of Gravity Antonion's black hole with sheer speed.

This Wiki stated that escaping the singularity of a black hole is an infinite speed feat, and there's not much to elaborate on, we already already accepts this black hole as real, and we even use its singularity as an argument for resistance.

Everyone from X8 and onwards scales to this, since I don't know how to make Chill Penguin receive it.

Agree:

Disagree: @Migue79 @AlloyAmi @AguilaR202 @TyranoDoom30 @DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Thread Mod) @RaikiKurohane99 (Translation Staff)

Neutral:

Spoiler: INTELLIGENCE UPGRADE

Spoiler: Mega Man X - Extraordinary Genius

X managed to crack/decode the security system of the trans server, something Ciel couldn't do until that moment. However Ciel has created a perfect copy of X, made specifically to replace the original and rule Neo Arcadia. With X being considered Dr. Light's magnum opus and other Genius-level scientists can barely analyze his body. X is stated to be the best Hunter, which puts him above Zero in Combat-Wise.

Spoiler: Axl - Extraordinary Genius

Axl was considered a key member of Red Alert, a successful illegal faction that hunted Mavericks just like the Hunters. He disguised himself as Red so well that he fooled X, Zero, and Sigma. He can constantly keep up with X and Zero in combat.

Spoiler: Gate - Extraordinary Genius

Gate almost completes Analysis X and Zero's body—despite them being unanalyzable. He created highly advanced Reploids that also were unanalyzable and among them Infinity Mijinion, who analyzes information with the accuracy and speed of multiple supercomputers, which must be far superior to Ra Moon.

Agree: @Migue79 @TheHedgememe @DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) @RaikiKurohane99 (Translation Staff)

Disagree: @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Thread Mod)

Neutral:

Spoiler: Abilities and Resistance

• Immortality Type 1 (Reploids can live for centuries without any problem)

• Immortality Type 2 (Combat Applicable: Reploids can survive and fight even after being severely damaged)

• Immortality Type 3 & Regeneration (Low-Godly: As long as their souls still exist, Reploids can regenerate their entire bodies even after complete destruction)

• Time Travel (They can travel through time using teleport)

• Invulnerability (When damaged, Reploids can become briefly invulnerable)

• Non-Physical Interaction:
•(Data: Reploids can interact with and destroy Data)
•(Energy & Electrons: Reploids can interact with and destroy Cyber Elves, beings made of energy and electrons)
•(Spiritual: Can interact with Souls, which are manifestations of Reploids’ Data extracted from their bodies)
•(Non-Corporeal & Non-Physical: Can interact and fight foes in their Data forms)
•(Personality, Thought, Memories & Dreams: Data composes a Reploid’s personality, memories, appearance, consciousness, and dreams)
•(Narrative: Data defines and determines a Reploid's canonicity and history within reality)
•(Information Type 2: Reploid's existence and consciousness are fundamentally composed of Data, as is the universe itself)

• Resistance to Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantic: X and Zero are able to resist the Dark Elf's powers, which can turn beings into Cyber-Elves, entities made of energy and electrons.

Agree: @Migue79 @AlloyAmi @TheHedgememe @DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Thread Mod) @RaikiKurohane99 (Translation Staff)

Disagree:

Neutral:

Spoiler: Potential Downgrade

Currently, we use this reasoning to claim Vent and Aile > Z-Era Zero, Omega, etc. The thing is, Vent and Aile aren't that strong, and I'm tired of pretending they are.

Even after fusing the power of X and Z into Model ZX, Vent and Aile are on the same level as pseudoroids with half the power of the Guardians, and that doesn't even improve things, since in ZXA, Vent and Aile lose to a midgame Grey and Ashe, who are comparable to the Chosen Ones of the Guardians' Biometals, with Vent himself reaching a stalemate with the 4 Chosen Ones.

Vent and Aile are at most comparable, though weaker, to a midgame Grey and Ashe, who are comparable to the Chosen Ones, who are comparable to the Neo Arcadia Guardians.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Spoiler: clarification

X moving inside a black hole singularity isn’t “resistance”

resistance only allows a 3D character survives inside the singularity—movement within it is purely speed-based. Even if the character had resistance, they wouldn’t be able to escape the singularity if their speed is finite

It’s an infinite speed feat, not durability or resistance.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Some of the links in this post have to be fixed. They're broken or otherwise incorrectly implemented. They're usually the ones that start with "vsbattles.com" and are then followed by the intended link, or are intended to be highlights to a quote. Please make sure they work before you post anything going forward. Also, has your other one even passed yet? Anyway:

ZX downgrade might be redundant considering they'd likely still be scaling to the same overall feats from the X and Zero Eras. It'd just be changing the scaling chain, which isn't something covered on profiles AFAIK. Not a ZX expert though so I'm not the best person to ask for a concrete opinion on the matter.

Infinite/Immeasurable speed is already addressed as being debunked on the verse page, so there's probably going to be a LOT of pushback from other verse supporters in regards to that. Even if I think such an argument can absolutely be made, even down to being from DiVE as well, minus that Magma Dragoon scan which is new to me. I've never known escaping the singularity of a Black Hole was an infinite speed feat, but if everyone else is fine with it, then I'm not opposed to it being the case. That said, assuming that it isn't just a regular Black Hole resistance:

I've also seen those teleportation-based Immeasurable arguments before. No comment on them other than I'm neutral.

Intelligence looks fine to me.

Abilities/Resistances for reploids honestly feels like it'd need its own "Reploid Physiology" adjacent blog. Argument for invulnerability's shaky and could be argued against as being gameplay mechanics (although X does use Chameleon Sting to become invulnerable, same with Zero and the Cyber-Elf Jackson). Add info type 2 onto NPI as well, since data in Mega Man functions in a similar manner (recall DNA Data being what determines reploids' characteristics, including their powers, and all), not to mention how the Cyberspaces in the series are just universes in their own right that can even merge with the real world in the case of Zero Space.

 

[AguilaR202]

Black holes aren’t escapable by sheer speed afaik, space past the Swarzchild Radius is bent towards the singularity making any directional movement pull you closer to it, if anything it’s just resistance to the phenomena itself because he is unaffected by it (compared to his buster shots that actually get pulled) escaping a blackhole near its edge only requires FTL which x already has.

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

"can go in linear time through sheer speed"

stated that escaping the singularity of a black hole is an infinite speed feat,

singularity as an argument for resistance.

Axl was considered a key member of Red Alert,

a successful illegal faction that hunted Mavericks just like the Hunters.

centuries

recovery function)

with half the power of the Guardians

reaching a stalemate with the 4 Chosen Ones.

Neo Arcadia Guardians.

All o' these links I think are the broken ones, at least on my end. They all only led to "Oops! We ran into some problems."

 

[Crimson_cordx]

I guess the links are fixed now

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Black holes aren’t escapable by sheer speed afaik, space past the Swarzchild Radius is bent towards the singularity making any directional movement pull you closer to it, if anything it’s just resistance to the phenomena itself because he is unaffected by it (compared to his buster shots that actually get pulled) escaping a blackhole near its edge only requires FTL which x already has.

They are not only inside the edge of the black hole, they are also escaping the singularity, since they are in the very inside of a black hole

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Some of the links in this post have to be fixed. They're broken or otherwise incorrectly implemented. They're usually the ones that start with "vsbattles.com" and are then followed by the intended link, or are intended to be highlights to a quote. Please make sure they work before you post anything going forward. Also, has your other one even passed yet? Anyway:

No, but it’s not connected to that one, so I think I can make a separate one.

ZX downgrade might be redundant considering they'd likely still be scaling to the same overall feats from the X and Zero Eras. It'd just be changing the scaling chain, which isn't something covered on profiles AFAIK. Not a ZX expert though so I'm not the best person to ask for a concrete opinion on the matter.

just to fix the horrible chainscaling that ZX has

Infinite/Immeasurable speed is already addressed as being debunked on the verse page, so there's probably going to be a LOT of pushback from other verse supporters in regards to that.

X4, X8 and Z1 are just stage gimmicks—same with Z4 and X3. One’s just a timer to hype up the fight, and the other’s basically a timer for extra drama

Even if I think such an argument can absolutely be made, even down to being from DiVE as well, minus that Magma Dragoon scan which is new to me. I've never known escaping the singularity of a Black Hole was an infinite speed feat, but if everyone else is fine with it, then I'm not opposed to it being the case. That said, assuming that it isn't just a regular Black Hole resistance:

Getting out of a black hole is just FTL—escaping the singularity is infinite speed

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Abilities/Resistances for reploids honestly feels like it'd need its own "Reploid Physiology" adjacent blog. Argument for invulnerability's shaky and could be argued against as being gameplay mechanics (although X does use Chameleon Sting to become invulnerable, same with Zero and the Cyber-Elf Jackson). Add info type 2 onto NPI as well, since data in Mega Man functions in a similar manner (recall DNA Data being what determines reploids' characteristics, including their powers, and all), not to mention how the Cyberspaces in the series are just universes in their own right that can even merge with the real world in the case of Zero Space.

Don’t think a blog is need tbh—only like 6 abilities and 1 resistance, not really worth it.

 

[TheHedgememe]

No, but it’s not connected to that one, so I think I can make a separate one.

Aye, fair enough. Just don't get too overwhelmed, I guess.

just to fix the horrible chainscaling that ZX has

Still probably won't affect the profiles in any significant manner outside changes in justification. I don't even think the verse has an established scaling chain.

X4, X8 and Z1 are just stage gimmicks—same with Z4 and X3. One’s just a timer to hype up the fight, and the other’s basically a timer for extra drama

Agreed with the exception of Zero 4. The entire point of that fight is that Zero's trying to stop Ragnarok as its falling down (ba-dum-tss) and about to crash into Earth. That and X5's whole thing with Eurasia are the two big narrative anti-feats. I also think it's kind of dumb the verse page specifically debunks that, since the outcome is that they usually always beat the clock (especially in gameplay scenarios). But. Whatever. Them's the brakes.

Getting out of a black hole is just FTL—escaping the singularity is infinite speed

I know, I read the page. But someone could also easily argue that X not being sucked into Gravity Antonion's black hole is just a resistance feat. At that point it's just a matter of arguing if X does so with his speed or if he just resists the effects of the black hole (though I guess he is dashing through it in that scan).

Don’t think a blog is need tbh—only like 6 abilities and 1 resistance, not really worth it.

At some later point in time, when there's inevitably more reploid abilities/resistances, it definitely will. For now though I'll let it slide.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Still probably won't affect the profiles in any significant manner outside changes in justification. I don't even think the verse has an established scaling chain.

Besides the ZX ones, only Omega’s left—and it’s def worth a try

Agreed with the exception of Zero 4. The entire point of that fight is that Zero's trying to stop Ragnarok as its falling down (ba-dum-tss) and about to crash into Earth. That and X5's whole thing with Eurasia are the two big narrative anti-feats. I also think it's kind of dumb the verse page specifically debunks that, since the outcome is that they usually always beat the clock (especially in gameplay scenarios). But. Whatever. Them's the brakes.

can understand the Z4 one, but X5 is just PIS. Still, it’s too strict a standard to apply only to Mega Man.

I know, I read the page. But someone could also easily argue that X not being sucked into Gravity Antonion's black hole is just a resistance feat. At that point it's just a matter of arguing if X does so with his speed or if he just resists the effects of the black hole (though I guess he is dashing through it in that scan).

Resistance is just for surviving the singularity—movement is all about speed

At some later point in time, when there's inevitably more reploid abilities/resistances, it definitely will. For now though I'll let it slide.

Yea, def

 

[AguilaR202]

Shouldn’t they all have layered information type 2 resistance considering Virus’ explicitly try to override and rewrite their programming (much like how cyber elf’s affect their users) at least the ones that can’t go maverick.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Besides the ZX ones, only Omega’s left—and it’s def worth a try

I suppose so. What's missing on Omega's profile?

can understand the Z4 one, but X5 is just PIS. Still, it’s too strict a standard to apply only to Mega Man.

Oh, for sure. X5's plot, barring the Zero Virus' creation of Zero Space and how characters scale to it, is a big outlier in the overall series no matter how you slice it.

Though in X5's case, and I will go on a tangent, I think a serviceable explanation on how Zero is affected by crashing into Eurasia is just the simple matter that Eurasia's got the Sigma Virus all over it. Given how data can amp characters/things in the series, it might've just not been a normal space colony heading to Earth like people often say it is (AP =/- DC and all). He does get stronger with exposure to it, but he's evidently also not invincible in that game.

Resistance is just for surviving the singularity—movement is all about speed

Fair enough. I'll probably leave the arguing to someone more knowledgeable about black hole feats. I will say, just be prepared for counterarguments. Also here's a scan from the Maverick Hunter's Field Guide because I felt it was relevant enough. It is a proper black hole, if that wasn't obvious already.

Shouldn’t they all have layered information type 2 resistance considering Virus’ explicitly try to override and rewrite their programming (much like how cyber elf’s affect their users) at least the ones that can’t go maverick.

Yeah. Sigma was made to resist viruses but got infected and mutated into the Sigma Virus anyway.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Also, adding onto the reacting to teleport stuff: It's a thing even in the X series where characters can tag in and out during fights.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Shouldn’t they all have layered information type 2 resistance considering Virus’ explicitly try to override and rewrite their programming (much like how cyber elf’s affect their users) at least the ones that can’t go maverick.

Yep and a lot of Layers actually, the Sigma Virus even corrupted Via—an admin who exists above the verse, runs things from a higher-level Cyberspace, and sees the characters and their data as basically 2D stuff—while X, Zero, and Axl are immune

 

[TheHedgememe]

Yep and a lot of Layers actually, the Sigma Virus even corrupted Via—an admin who exists above the verse, runs things from a higher-level Cyberspace, and sees the characters and their data as basically 2D stuff—while X, Zero, and Axl are immune

That's the Robot Destroy Program, but the Sigma Virus upscales anyway.

Also I'm already working on some stuff for the Sigma Virus, it's about 80% done for my tastes but I still need to get it organized and check material for things I may have missed.

 

[AguilaR202]

I don’t think there is strong evidence written in the OP for canon invincibility frames, though I recall there being a chip to extend its duration meaning it has grounds for being a thing and not just game mechanics.

Parts - MMKB, the Mega Man Knowledge Base - Mega Man 10, Mega Man X, characters, and more

Parts (パーツ, Pātsu) are items from the Mega Man and Mega Man X series that can be obtained and equipped by the player's character.

megaman.miraheze.org

D barrier (from MMX6 and MMX7 and X8) actually extends your invincibility frames post hit, so maybe if it were included in the explanations that certain armors ( I think) and chips directly work to amplify this mechanic there is substantial ground for it being a legitimate ability Reploids have.

 

[Da3ggman]

Mega Man will go the way of Demon Slayer if this keeps up

Following

 

[TheHedgememe]

Parts - MMKB, the Mega Man Knowledge Base - Mega Man 10, Mega Man X, characters, and more

Parts (パーツ, Pātsu) are items from the Mega Man and Mega Man X series that can be obtained and equipped by the player's character.

megaman.miraheze.org

D barrier (from MMX6 and MMX7 and X8) actually extends your invincibility frames post hit, so maybe if it were included in the explanations that certain armors ( I think) and chips directly work to amplify this mechanic there is substantial ground for it being a legitimate ability Reploids have.

Oh, damn. Alright then. This works.

Mega Man will go the way of Demon Slayer if this keeps up

Following

No idea what Demon Slayer is up to, what's this mean?

 

[Da3ggman]

No idea what Demon Slayer is up to, what's this mean?

 

[Theglassman12]

Is there anything about the whole "react to the teleport" that remotely implies the characters are actually reacting to the teleporting? The first and last clip just shows an intro of the bosses just getting into place rather than actually reacting to the literal teleportation itself so that can just be gameplay stuff for the intros to have some flair like other fighting game intros. The second clip is just Mega Man jumping back over the fact someone teleported out of nowhere here, plus the beam doesn't actually try to go at him so the idea he's reacting to an immeasurable teleporting beam is kind of questionable to say the least.

 

[AguilaR202]

I don’t see any actual proof of teleporters actually being the thing used for them traveling through time in the first place.

For any sort of immeasurable speed feat you need to prove

a) that they’re doing it with teleporters and not some other form of time travel device
Just them saying they travel through time isn’t enough if the actual method isn’t being shown
Would also help if you added scans of them appearing in different eras.

b) that time travel actually requires sheer speed

c) that the teleporters characters use in X Dive would actually scale to the ones Rock, X and the like have for themselves.


Hard anti feats for any sort of infinite or above speeds

Timers, MMX5 takes place within a 16 hour countdown and it takes one hour to clear a single stage

While it is not an inmediate anti feat for any sort of speed rating, it 100% is for infinite speeds.

Timestop, before you unlock the ability in MMX5 Dark Hold can actually freeze you; if Zero or X had any measure of infinite speed ( because your scaling suggests even classic era characters would be immeasurable ) they wouldn’t care nor would the endless fodder enemies that get frozen but are technically fast enough to stall them for more than an hour.

Characters already move FTL, classic era Megaman can run faster than a blackhole can pull him; they don’t even have a chance to fall into natural black holes and visually they just phase through it, implying resistance to its effects as opposed to sheer speed.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Yeah, these were the counter-arguments I was expecting to see on this thread. Tried warning OP about them earlier.

I won't try arguing for Immeasurable/Infinite stuff now, though. The arguments in OP are... Admittedly shaky, even if I did try to chip in somewhat earlier in the thread.

I will tackle the anti-feats listed on the verse page to the best of my ability though, seeing as I am in agreement that the anti-feats in question bottlenecking the verse's speed are a bit ridiculous. I am not necessarily proposing a higher tier, I'm just addressing what I feel is wrong with canning the idea of such arguments altogether.

Timers, MMX5 takes place within a 16 hour countdown and it takes one hour to clear a single stage

A majority of the timers on the verse page are gameplay-related, like "get out of the building before it explodes" after beating Vile in X3, even though it's been well-established that X has survived much worse things than a building exploding, given he no-sells a missile exploding in the game before this during X2's Overdrive Ostrich stage. God forbid we talk about the events of Xtreme involving the manipulation of the Mother Computer's Cyberspace (accepted on this site as being a 2-C feat due to the energy involved and how how data governs reality in the franchise), which is directly before X3. What about Gravity Beetle's black hole that just casually decimates an entire city?

In X8, the training missions in Optic Sunflower's stage are as simple as just "kill this many enemies to proceed to a higher tier of challenge." X4's Cyberspace is literally just something you're meant to speedrun to get one of the armor parts for X/heart tank for Zero and one of the sub tanks. Neither of these aspects of either stage have any real bearing on the overall plots of their respective games aside from that and are entirely dependent on the player's skill level.

In Zero 1, Zero has to disarm bombs that Phantom sets before they go off and kill him. Even though he already scales to Omega, who created/distorted/affected the Zero Era's Cyberspace by just appearing, since he and X fought him together during the Elf Wars. While this does happen immediately after you defeat Phantom, and there is dialogue surrounding it in the context of this scenario, it stands to reason that this is wildly inconsistent with the verse's often consistently better showings and is thus Plot-Induced Stupidity.

X5 and Zero 4 are really the only actually understandable anti-feats, given their significant narrative importance, even if I'm led to believe that they're both outliers in the grand scheme of things. Even X5 leans into the Tier 2 sauce with everything surrounding the Zero Virus, its creation of Zero Space, and how Zero ends up scaling to that (despite Eurasia being a thing).

For the aforementioned reasons, I have reason to believe a lot of these supporting cases for timers are just textbook gameplay mechanics with no real relation to the overall narrative, beyond forcing the player to either complete an objective or suffer some kind of negative consequence as a result. While I understand the point is to argue that the characters are always bound by time, this is not the way to do it.

My point in bringing up AP/Durability here is simply to illustrate that picking and choosing which stats to arbitrarily cap based on events that are not at all reflective of the verse's best showings, where characters can already casually just breach the speed of light, create black holes, and even create/affect entire space-time continuums that they scale to, is absurd. Should the characters be building level now because they might suffer the consequence of bombs going off and killing them if they don't get out in time, even though they've just as consistently shown better feats than that?

I just think it's strange to take some of what can be argued to be among the verse's worst showings and suggest that this is their limit for even one of their stats, while completely ignoring the other factors of the same situations that can just as easily be argued to "debunk" their other stats, regardless if the point is to prevent any argumentation for Infinite/Immeasurable speeds by arguing the characters are always bound by time. Especially if half of these are just exclusively gameplay-related and already heavily contradict feats present in the series.

Now, it might still be possible that the verse doesn't reach these levels of speed. But I imagine that it'd end up being for completely different reasons than the verse page suggests.

Timestop, before you unlock the ability in MMX5 Dark Hold can actually freeze you; if Zero or X had any measure of infinite speed ( because your scaling suggests even classic era characters would be immeasurable ) they wouldn’t care nor would the endless fodder enemies that get frozen but are technically fast enough to stall them for more than an hour.

This point about the time stop's rendered mostly moot on virtue of how not only Dark Hold doesn't affect bosses outside of Spiral Pegasus (who are all weaker/lesser reploids than X and Zero btw), but also that Sigma didn't even consider Dark Necrobat to be a threat to him because Dark Hold was essentially useless (only having "limited use") against other reploids specifically.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

I don’t see any actual proof of teleporters actually being the thing used for them traveling through time in the first place.

For any sort of immeasurable speed feat you need to prove

a) that they’re doing it with teleporters and not some other form of time travel device
Just them saying they travel through time isn’t enough if the actual method isn’t being shown
Would also help if you added scans of them appearing in different eras.

Both the player and the boss reach the stages (which are diferents timelines via teleport, and the whole game lore is kinda up to you to fix the timeline/story inconsistencies in each game.

b) that time travel actually requires sheer speed

characters are always keeping up—or at worst just reacting—to the teleport, which still counts if we assume teleportation can travel through time as X dive suggest.

c) that the teleporters characters use in X Dive would actually scale to the ones Rock, X and the like have for themselves.

Except for their stats, the Hunters programs in X-Dive are basically a perfect copy of their counterparts in terms of skills, since they are made by the characters Data, which as mentioned by @TheHedgememe, contains their info 2

Characters already move FTL, classic era Megaman can run faster than a blackhole can pull him; they don’t even have a chance to fall into natural black holes and visually they just phase through it, implying resistance to its effects as opposed to sheer speed.

You just ignored the fact that the hunters are passing through the singularity, not just the edge of the black hole

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Is there anything about the whole "react to the teleport" that remotely implies the characters are actually reacting to the teleporting? The first and last clip just shows an intro of the bosses just getting into place rather than actually reacting to the literal teleportation itself so that can just be gameplay stuff for the intros to have some flair like other fighting game intros. The second clip is just Mega Man jumping back over the fact someone teleported out of nowhere here, plus the beam doesn't actually try to go at him so the idea he's reacting to an immeasurable teleporting beam is kind of questionable to say the least.

ShadowMan alone can keep up w/ the teleport. SlashMan reacts to it and even gets to his position before it lands. Rock reacts to it as soon as it pops up. MMX chars literally use it in combat,
so yeah, they can at least react to it lol.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Hard anti feats for any sort of infinite or above speeds

Already addressed these anti-feats earlier in this CRT, but quick recap:
X4, X8, Z1 = just stage gimmicks. X3 is a time gimmick for drama—30s escape timer ≠ X actually needing 30s to leave (even if, travel speed ≠ combat speed).
Z4 is the only semi-valid one, but imo it’s just inconsistency, since it’d double as an AP anti-feat. Zero dying to a city-level weapon just doesn’t add up.

Timers, MMX5 takes place within a 16 hour countdown and it takes one hour to clear a single stage

X5... sure? That’s just blatant PIS at its worst. Also, a character can have finite travel speed but still have infinite combat speed, or smth along those lines.

Timestop, before you unlock the ability in MMX5 Dark Hold can actually freeze you; if Zero or X had any measure of infinite speed ( because your scaling suggests even classic era characters would be immeasurable ) they wouldn’t care nor would the endless fodder enemies that get frozen but are technically fast enough to stall them for more than an hour.

Infinite speed = crossing infinite distance in finite time or finite distance in 0 time. This doesn’t really contradict that logic. Also, plenty of characters have infinite speed or better and still get hit by Time Manip—it just depends on whether they have resistance or not.

 

[AguilaR202]

Yeah, these were the counter-arguments I was expecting to see on this thread. Tried warning OP about them earlier.

I won't try arguing for Immeasurable/Infinite stuff now, though. The arguments in OP are... Admittedly shaky, even if I did try to chip in somewhat earlier in the thread.

I will tackle the anti-feats listed on the verse page to the best of my ability though, seeing as I am in agreement that the anti-feats in question bottlenecking the verse's speed are a bit ridiculous. I am not necessarily proposing a higher tier, I'm just addressing what I feel is wrong with canning the idea of such arguments altogether.


A majority of the timers on the verse page are gameplay-related, like "get out of the building before it explodes" after beating Vile in X3, even though it's been well-established that X has survived much worse things than a building exploding, given he no-sells a missile exploding in the game before this during X2's Overdrive Ostrich stage. God forbid we talk about the events of Xtreme involving the manipulation of the Mother Computer's Cyberspace (accepted on this site as being a 2-C feat due to the energy involved and how how data governs reality in the franchise), which is directly before X3. What about Gravity Beetle's black hole that just casually decimates an entire city?

In X8, the training missions in Optic Sunflower's stage are as simple as just "kill this many enemies to proceed to a higher tier of challenge." X4's Cyberspace is literally just something you're meant to speedrun to get one of the armor parts for X/heart tank for Zero and one of the sub tanks. Neither of these aspects of either stage have any real bearing on the overall plots of their respective games aside from that and are entirely dependent on the player's skill level.

In Zero 1, Zero has to disarm bombs that Phantom sets before they go off and kill him. Even though he already scales to Omega, who created/distorted/affected the Zero Era's Cyberspace by just appearing, since he and X fought him together during the Elf Wars. While this does happen immediately after you defeat Phantom, and there is dialogue surrounding it in the context of this scenario, it stands to reason that this is wildly inconsistent with the verse's often consistently better showings and is thus Plot-Induced Stupidity.

X5 and Zero 4 are really the only actually understandable anti-feats, given their significant narrative importance, even if I'm led to believe that they're both outliers in the grand scheme of things. Even X5 leans into the Tier 2 sauce with everything surrounding the Zero Virus, its creation of Zero Space, and how Zero ends up scaling to that (despite Eurasia being a thing).

For the aforementioned reasons, I have reason to believe a lot of these supporting cases for timers are just textbook gameplay mechanics with no real relation to the overall narrative, beyond forcing the player to either complete an objective or suffer some kind of negative consequence as a result. While I understand the point is to argue that the characters are always bound by time, this is not the way to do it.

My point in bringing up AP/Durability here is simply to illustrate that picking and choosing which stats to arbitrarily cap based on events that are not at all reflective of the verse's best showings, where characters can already casually just breach the speed of light, create black holes, and even create/affect entire space-time continuums that they scale to, is absurd. Should the characters be building level now because they might suffer the consequence of bombs going off and killing them if they don't get out in time, even though they've just as consistently shown better feats than that?

I just think it's strange to take some of what can be argued to be among the verse's worst showings and suggest that this is their limit for even one of their stats, while completely ignoring the other factors of the same situations that can just as easily be argued to "debunk" their other stats, regardless if the point is to prevent any argumentation for Infinite/Immeasurable speeds by arguing the characters are always bound by time. Especially if half of these are just exclusively gameplay-related and already heavily contradict feats present in the series.

Now, it might still be possible that the verse doesn't reach these levels of speed. But I imagine that it'd end up being for completely different reasons than the verse page suggests.


This point about the time stop's rendered mostly moot on virtue of how not only Dark Hold doesn't affect bosses outside of Spiral Pegasus (who are all weaker/lesser reploids than X and Zero btw), but also that Sigma didn't even consider Dark Necrobat to be a threat to him because Dark Hold was essentially useless (only having "limited use") against other reploids

Timers on certain events only compound on the major narrative anti feats for infinite speed which are real time hours they have to spend on stages, they don’t move infinite distances nor do they move in literal 0 seconds, bombs with countdowns on stages just further solidify the clear narrative that the characters operate within the boundaries of time.

Timestop is very relevant because it is the visual debunk of infinite speed perceptions, it works on fodder enemies inside the stages, and it is only after you activate practical infinite speed that they appear frozen to X/Zero, if enemies had infinite speed by default they wouldn’t get frozen, time slow/stop that is a recurrent skill in the series would be functionally obsolete, if X or Zero had infinite speeds they would percieve anything without infinite speeds as frozen and would be by default immune to the first time they encountered timestop which isn’t the case, the only reason timestop doesn’t work on bosses is because of implied resistances (or downright game mechanics) as opposed to sheer speed breaching the gap.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Timers on certain events only compound on the major narrative anti feats for infinite speed which are real time hours they have to spend on stages, they don’t move infinite distances nor do they move in literal 0 seconds, bombs with countdowns on stages just further solidify the clear narrative that the characters operate within the boundaries of time.

Not when half of the time it's literal plot-induced stupidity or gameplay mechanics, as I've pointed out. You aren't even registering my argument against them at all and are actively ignoring the other implications these "anti-feats" have.

Timestop is very relevant because it is the visual debunk of infinite speed perceptions, it works on fodder enemies inside the stages, and it is only after you activate practical infinite speed that they appear frozen to X/Zero, if enemies had infinite speed by default they wouldn’t get frozen, time slow/stop that is a recurrent skill in the series would be functionally obsolete, if X or Zero had infinite speeds they would percieve anything without infinite speeds as frozen and would be by default immune to the first time they encountered timestop which isn’t the case, the only reason timestop doesn’t work on bosses is because of implied resistances (or downright game mechanics) as opposed to sheer speed breaching the gap.

I agree it's more than likely resistance-based, but I also just sent a scan from a guidebook that says timestops are essentially useless against reploids—in stark contrast to the rest of Dark Necrobat's surroundings. It's not gameplay mechanics if it's outright stated in-lore.

You're also arguably using gameplay mechanics (being able to see fodder enemies move, when half of them aren't even proper reploids with the resistance) to justify them being bound by time.

 

[AlloyAmi]

IMMEASURABLE SPEED
Basically, in X-Dive, it's saying that errors programs can travel through time using their teleport. This in itself is just time travel for the teleport, but the thing is that the characters can constantly react to or keep up with the teleport.

By this wiki rules, a character gets Immeasurable Speed if they "can go in linear time through sheer speed" so everyone who can keep up with the teleport falls into this category.

This'd 100% includes mmx and onwards, since they upscales the robot masters that can keep up with the teleport by sheer speed.


But if that's not solid enough, I'll bring another argument, this time for Infinite Speed

Xdive's entire canon is broken and character limitations are removed. i go over this in the canonicity blog and its the reason why everyone in the franchise including actual fodder like dr light and ceil can competently fight. their standard game versions absolutely shouldnt scale and this would be exclusive to some xdive key that would be its own rabbit hole with its own exclusive scaling.

Also also theres no proof they use the teleporters to even perform their time travel. its offscreen and can simply be hax so using this as a speed feat doesnt really work.

INFINITE SPEED
This one is quite simple: The Hunters can easily escape the singularity of Gravity Antonion's black hole with sheer speed.

This Wiki stated that escaping the singularity of a black hole is an infinite speed feat, and there's not much to elaborate on, we already already accepts this black hole as real, and we even use its singularity as an argument for resistance.

already addressed but just a resistance. infinite speed has also been debunked by a plethora of anti feats i provided in another thread and doesn't make narrative sense at all

• Immortality Type 3 & Regeneration (Mid: Reploids are able to regenerate even after having half of their body destroyed thanks to their recovery function)

This doesn't actually happen and zero just lied about how he came back for the sake of aura. This is made evidentially clear with light capsule dialogue where he asks Dr. Light how he came back because he truly even doesn't know. In even later light capsule dialogue, the idea of a recovery function doing it was abandoned entirely and now hes just asking light who could have saved him. its made very clear that someone rescued him, with everything pointing to it being isoc, a character that knows Zero from the inside out which literally nobody else in verse (besides serges) is capable of doing, not even dr light himself, and isoc is essentially wily possessing a reploid body as a virus (same applies to serges as well)

• Time Travel (They can travel through time using teleport)

No proof its via teleporting

• Invulnerability (When damaged, Reploids can become briefly invulnerable)

Fine but lacks proof. actual proof of canon iframes include parts such as Barrier extender, D barrier, double & triple barrier, and extender and the chip double barrier.\

 

[AlloyAmi]

Is there anything about the whole "react to the teleport" that remotely implies the characters are actually reacting to the teleporting? The first and last clip just shows an intro of the bosses just getting into place rather than actually reacting to the literal teleportation itself so that can just be gameplay stuff for the intros to have some flair like other fighting game intros. The second clip is just Mega Man jumping back over the fact someone teleported out of nowhere here, plus the beam doesn't actually try to go at him so the idea he's reacting to an immeasurable teleporting beam is kind of questionable to say the least.

I don't agree with immeasurable teleporters but they have to react the landing when performing it to land well which essentially every character does. otherwise they will clumsily fall like roll here or struggle to keep balance like pallete here. I don't think the fighting game intro one is good evidence for it but the Mega Man V one shows him jumping out the way before he lands. Theres also cutman who does this.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm still not convinced of them reacting to the teleporting, the fighting game intros doesn't tell me of them reacting to the teleporting, do you have any instances of them flat out reacting to a teleport in a cutscene or no? The tumbling doesn't tell me anything about them actually reacting to a teleportation. I'm gonna need more than just a teleport animation to see them actually react to the speed of it.

 

[TheHedgememe]

I'm still not convinced of them reacting to the teleporting, the fighting game intros doesn't tell me of them reacting to the teleporting, do you have any instances of them flat out reacting to a teleport in a cutscene or no? The tumbling doesn't tell me anything about them actually reacting to a teleportation. I'm gonna need more than just a teleport animation to see them actually react to the speed of it.

While not in a cutscene, there's several bosses in the series that boast teleportation capabilities during combat that exist in-universe.

Examples that come to mind are Boomer Kuwanger, Cyber Peacock, Zero Nightmare, Colonel (of which has a teleport attack that needs to be dodged), and various forms of Sigma, and all are acknowledged as being things they can do in the lore (as the Maverick Hunters' Field Guide is generally written from an in-universe perspective, with the reader taking on the role of a recent Maverick Hunter recruit). Only caveat here is that some of these are specified as being "short-range" teleportation, while others don't specify a range that they cover. Even so, there is a precedent to the idea of characters reacting to other characters teleporting in-combat, given how often characters even possess the ability to teleport and can additionally do so during combat in tandem with their attacks.

But regardless of if the characters can react to teleports, the immeasurable arguments presented here aren't at all up to snuff or backed by significant evidence, and the attempted upgrade seems to fall flat on its face as a result. The verse's best speed feats (already accepted on the wiki) currently don't even come from the teleporting, so it'd change little.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I'm still not convinced of them reacting to the teleporting, the fighting game intros doesn't tell me of them reacting to the teleporting, do you have any instances of them flat out reacting to a teleport in a cutscene or no? The tumbling doesn't tell me anything about them actually reacting to a teleportation. I'm gonna need more than just a teleport animation to see them actually react to the speed of it.

I didnt use the fighting games though? and the tumbling shows less experienced characters such as housekeeper and a new navigator not initially made to go adventuring tumbling cuz they are clumsier and lack the experience the other characters. and these 2 examples further show their reactions. in the end this doesnt really matter though cuz they react to duos meteor form which scales to the fastest speed feat in the series

 

[AlloyAmi]

While not in a cutscene, there's several bosses in the series that boast teleportation capabilities during combat that exist in-universe.

Examples that come to mind are Boomer Kuwanger, Cyber Peacock, Zero Nightmare, Colonel (of which has a teleport attack that needs to be dodged), and various forms of Sigma, and all are acknowledged as being things they can do in the lore (as the Maverick Hunters' Field Guide is generally written from an in-universe perspective, with the reader taking on the role of a recent Maverick Hunter recruit). Only caveat here is that some of these are specified as being "short-range" teleportation, while others don't specify a range that they cover. Even so, there is a precedent to the idea of characters reacting to other characters teleporting in-combat, given how often characters even possess the ability to teleport and can additionally do so during combat in tandem with their attacks.

But regardless of if the characters can react to teleports, the immeasurable arguments presented here aren't at all up to snuff or backed by significant evidence, and the attempted upgrade seems to fall flat on its face as a result. The verse's best speed feats (already accepted on the wiki) currently don't even come from the teleporting, so it'd change little.

not the same, this is literal teleportation. the teleporters with the speed feats isnt real teleportation and are moreso them transforming into a beam of light to travel to a very specific point at really fast speeds.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Xdive's entire canon is broken and character limitations are removed. i go over this in the canonicity blog and its the reason why everyone in the franchise including actual fodder like dr light and ceil can competently fight. their standard game versions absolutely shouldnt scale and this would be exclusive to some xdive key that would be its own rabbit hole with its own exclusive scaling.

I might be missing smth, but that’d only be a stats limitation, not abilities.
The chars themselves are creates by their Data, which includes their abilities, so I think we can at least use X Dive for Hax

Also also theres no proof they use the teleporters to even perform their time travel.

The player and bosses enter the stages using teleport, so it's safe to say that Magma Dragon's statement is referring to teleport.

its offscreen and can simply be hax so using this as a speed feat doesnt really work.

Yea, I know—I even mentioned that in the CRT. It’d only count as hax if the chars couldn’t keep up w/ teleportation, which they clearly can, so they at least scale to its speed.

This doesn't actually happen and zero just lied about how he came back for the sake of aura. This is made evidentially clear with light capsule dialogue where he asks Dr. Light how he came back because he truly even doesn't know. In even later light capsule dialogue, the idea of a recovery function doing it was abandoned entirely and now hes just asking light who could have saved him.

Zero questioning himself if the recovery function saved him already implies it being able of regenerates him at the very least.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

already addressed but just a resistance. infinite speed has also been debunked by a plethora of anti feats i provided in another thread and doesn't make narrative sense at all

resistance only allows a 3D character survives inside the singularity—movement within it is purely speed-based. Even if the character had resistance, they wouldn’t be able to escape the singularity if their speed is finite.
Already went over the anti-feats twice in this CRT, so yeah, not repeating myself

its made very clear that someone rescued him, with everything pointing to it being isoc, a character that knows Zero from the inside out which literally nobody else in verse (besides serges) is capable of doing, not even dr light himself, and isoc is essentially wily possessing a reploid body as a virus (same applies to serges as well)

Isoc repairing Zero doesn’t add up—why would he repair him just to let him roam free, while being fine w/ only his DNA?

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheHedgememe those clips don't have the laser travel thing that X or Zero do when they teleport to the current stage so Idk if those can even count as the same type of teleportation movement.

@AlloyAmi I'm responding to both you and Crimson, I never said you're arguing via fighting game intros. Those two clips doesn't tell me anything about them reacting to the teleport at all, and the Duo feat is fine but I'm not really addressing Duo's feats, I'm mostly talking about the teleportation feats specifically since I don't really see how that would equate to reaction speed or movement speed when no one's actually reacting to the teleport itself beyond using some fighting game intros that tells me nothing about if they actually are moving that fast.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Those clips don't have the laser travel thing that X or Zero do when they teleport to the current stage so Idk if those can even count as the same type of teleportation movement.

Yeah, Ami already kinda pointed that out. Worth a shot though.

 

[Crimson_cordx]

@AlloyAmi I'm responding to both you and Crimson, I never said you're arguing via fighting game intros. Those two clips doesn't tell me anything about them reacting to the teleport at all, and the Duo feat is fine but I'm not really addressing Duo's feats, I'm mostly talking about the teleportation feats specifically since I don't really see how that would equate to reaction speed or movement speed when no one's actually reacting to the teleport itself beyond using some fighting game intros that tells me nothing about if they actually are moving that fast.

Rock one should be already enough tbh, esp since it’s an actual story cutscene, not just visuals

 

[Theglassman12]

If you’re referring to the GameBoy cutscene of him jumping back I’m still not really seeing that as a reaction feat for the teleporting, it looks more like he’s surprised and jumped back over the sudden appearance of a boss more than him literally reacting to the teleport itself (doesn’t help that hardware limitation makes it really hard to tell if he’s even reacting to it or not).

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

if enemies had infinite speed by default they wouldn’t get frozen

Well, time to nerf sonic characters then, infinite speed but they use time manipulation to slow down or stop time

So yeah, gameplay in that regard, nothing more to say