GRACE [1-7-0] High 8-C Tiersetter Mortal Kombat Tournament Round 1, Match 3 (Spy vs. Soldier)

[Rex_Eckles]

Third match of this tournament.

Da Rules:

• Speed is always equalized
• Combatants start ~5 meters apart from one another (or however far the MK games place fighters)
• In the event of an inconclusive match, I'll flip a coin to choose who advances
• For pacing purposes, tournament advancement will be chosen, at absolute latest, a week after match-up is created
• Spy has L’Etranger and Cloak and Dagger, stock equipment otherwise
• Soldier has Black Box, Concheror, and Disciplinary Action

Location:

Music

Spy: DaReaperMan

Soldier: Rex_Eckles, LandonTheGuy, koopa3144, IbukiDoujisGiantTail, CatLover313, Poketmonsrs, JustANormalLemon

Flip a Coin:

 

[Rex_Eckles]

@LandonTheGuy @Poketmonsrs

FIGHT!

 

[DaReaperMan]

@LandonTheGuy @Poketmonsrs

FIGHT!

Blue names can't ping.

Anywho...

Spy in a fight is just straight up more skilled than Jane Doe here, and, unlike Soldier, has his main method of fighting not be something the other guy has a 75% resistance to.

In fact Spy in melee beats like, most of the classes except Heavy. And Heavy is the only exception beyond a full Demoknight(Obvious reasons) because his ass definitively scales above the rest and if Spy misjudges it...

But that's not something he has to worry about here. Soldier has a very... Punchy and Lifting Strength-based melee combat style. He's not unskilled, and decloaking behind him is the opposite of an option for Spy here since we know how Soldier treats that, but being outmatched in skill when the other guy only needs one clean go isn't very good. If Soldier knew to range spam he'd probably be fine since rocket launcher>revolver, but Jane Doe has a history of going melee. Just so happens that Spy is like, the hard counter to that beyond a full Demoknight or Heavy.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

If Soldier knew to range spam he'd probably be fine since rocket launcher>revolver, but Jane Doe has a history of going melee.

He'd probably start with firing his launcher, really, even though Spy can dodge, splash damage is still a thing. I do think a melee fight will go Spy's way.

 

[DaReaperMan]

He'd probably start with firing his launcher, really, even though Spy can dodge, splash damage is still a thing. I do think a melee fight will go Spy's way.

Yeah he'd start with a rocket fight, but Spy isn't stupid and knows Soldier has the same shit he does. Getting close enough to melee is going to make the prime slab of American beef ask the French fry how he likes shovel and get bodied for it.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Yeah he'd start with a rocket fight, but Spy isn't stupid and knows Soldier has the same shit he does. Getting close enough to melee is going to make the prime slab of American beef ask the French fry how he likes shovel and get bodied for it.

Aye. I'll wait for users to weigh in before voting though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I will say though that Soldier having legit skill feats puts him in like, the top 50% of the mercs anyways lmfao. In fact **** it here's the list:

1. Demoman. When half your available equipment is just shit to kill people in melee or make killing people in melee easier, you're gonna be better.
2. Spy. The guy has literally an entire meet the video dedicated to showing you that he kicks ass in melee, and anytime someone gets into melee with him in the comics they get a knife in the back or had him grossly outnumbered and outgunned in the first place.
3. Heavy. Heavy also does what Spy does but also melee fought his classic self to losing hard, and has Class M LS. He also regularly folds people like omelets for getting into melee with him.
4. Soldier. Literally fistfights armies covered in honey with his new wife. Next.
5. Realistically there should be like, Sasha here, or Natascha, huge gap here.
6. Scout. He uh... beat Blue Heavy to death with his bat. That's kinda it.
7. Pyro. He's got... something in melee, but she doesn't really compare because it's against the BLU team and they famously get creamed by everything in the meet the videos, so it's feat doesn't really do much except give it something existent. Side note, that page needs updating.
8. Sniper. He's fearless but he did manage to stay away from the Australians and evade them in his childhood I guess.
9. Medic and Engineer. I can grasp straws with Sniper, but the most either of these classes do is Medic stabbing an off-guard TFC Heavy once. You could do that with sufficient AP.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Sniper. He's fearless but he did manage to stay away from the Australians and evade them in his childhood I guess.

You're really sleeping on Sniper, he's surprisingly stealthy, could get the drop on Pauling, Demoman, and even Spy.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You're really sleeping on Sniper, he's surprisingly stealthy, could get the drop on Pauling, Demoman, and even Spy.

I'm counting melee skill, not stealth.

If I was counting stealth do you honestly think the drunk black scottish cyclops with a haunted sword that craves to decapitate people would be #1?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

will put imput later when i get home

 

[LandonTheGuy]

1. Sniper. He's fearless but he did manage to stay away from the Australians and evade them in his childhood I guess.
2. Medic and Engineer. I can grasp straws with Sniper, but the most either of these classes do is Medic stabbing an off-guard TFC Heavy once. You could do that with sufficient AP.

I will say, already sniper being able to survive a place filled with the brim with superhumans (in tf2 standard of superhuman) and somewhat compare should put him in top 5 combat wise

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I will admit that spy does outskill Soldier to a large degree, Spy really doesn't have anything else on him.

I mean yeah, spy has his backstab but i'm sure that a nechsnap would drop Spy instantly too also Soldier does have a ls advantage unironically, yes they are both comparable to each other but Soldier can still pin down people comparable to spy physically with one hand easly so spy tecnically downscales soldier.

Idk how much are we taking into account weapon stats, but the gun has 20% less firepower compared to stock, does it mean it downscales the base value of the mercs by a precise ammount or just somewhat weaker?

I would give it to Soldier 8/10 honestly, Spy is already not build for direct confrontation, then we add a tankier and physically stronger opponent, who has better fire range and possibly a insta kill button (neck snappig).

Even if Spy somehow finds a way to just keep distance Soldier (unlikely with rocket jump) has both the black box and Concheror who just heal him until spy is dead.

If spy tries to backstab soldier can either:

• Rocket jump away
• Blow himself up (he will tank the rocket better than spy anyway, and also regen)

 

[koopa3144]

Yeah Spy is pretty cooked here. Soldier only needs like two rocket hits to take Spy out in game and in the videos Soldier can one-shot stonger Merc's with them. Even if Spy survives long enough to turn invis, if he goes for a backstab Soldier can counter like he did in his meet the team video and if spy uses it to get distance Soldier can just rocket jump to him.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Yeah Spy is pretty cooked here. Soldier only needs like two rocket hits to take Spy out in game and in the videos Soldier can one-shot stonger Merc's with them. Even if Spy survives long enough to turn invis, if he goes for a backstab Soldier can counter like he did in his meet the team video and if spy uses it to get distance Soldier can just rocket jump to him.

I don't think getting one shot in the meet the teams does work as "Soldier one taps", but regardless Spy has less durability than soldier

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Still waiting for Spy rep.

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

Yeah Spy is pretty cooked tbh, Spy's best option would be trying to disguise and trick Soldier but given that they're in an MK arena in a 1v1 that's just not gonna fly especially when Spy needs to decloak for a backstab and the decloak sound is pretty much a giant kick me sign. Outside of a backstab Spy is either gonna be butter knifing Soldier who can out DPS him at both close and long range with just 2-3 rockets

Soldier FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

I will admit that spy does outskill Soldier to a large degree, Spy really doesn't have anything else on him.

I mean yeah, spy has his backstab but i'm sure that a nechsnap would drop Spy instantly too also Soldier does have a ls advantage unironically, yes they are both comparable to each other but Soldier can still pin down people comparable to spy physically with one hand easly so spy tecnically downscales soldier.

Idk how much are we taking into account weapon stats, but the gun has 20% less firepower compared to stock, does it mean it downscales the base value of the mercs by a precise ammount or just somewhat weaker?

I would give it to Soldier 8/10 honestly, Spy is already not build for direct confrontation, then we add a tankier and physically stronger opponent, who has better fire range and possibly a insta kill button (neck snappig).

Even if Spy somehow finds a way to just keep distance Soldier (unlikely with rocket jump) has both the black box and Concheror who just heal him until spy is dead.

If spy tries to backstab soldier can either:

• Rocket jump away
• Blow himself up (he will tank the rocket better than spy anyway, and also regen)

Are we honestly arguing Scout=Spy?

Is this the comparable in question? A slap staggering Scout to hell and back? Class 1 comes from Soldier in case ya forgot, they're comparable in both LS and AP. And that rocket launcher is a paperweight due to both resistances and the fact that Scout can tank hits from it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, I'd like to see an instance where someone gets into melee with Soldier and he chooses to shoot a rocket or rocket jump instead of trying to fistfight them. Because every instance I can remember or find has him immediately go for melee and abandoning all ranged combat.

Yeah Spy is pretty cooked here. Soldier only needs like two rocket hits to take Spy out in game and in the videos Soldier can one-shot stonger Merc's with them. Even if Spy survives long enough to turn invis, if he goes for a backstab Soldier can counter like he did in his meet the team video and if spy uses it to get distance Soldier can just rocket jump to him.

By the way... This your goat in melee?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Also, I'd like to see an instance where someone gets into melee with Soldier and he chooses to shoot a rocket instead of trying to fistfight them.

Hm...

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Are we honestly arguing Scout=Spy?

Is this the comparable in question? A slap staggering Scout to hell and back? Class 1 comes from Soldier in case ya forgot, they're comparable in both LS and AP. And that

Yes, there's not a single piece of evidence that Spy is physically capable to contend with soldier in a grappling match (don't pull the meet the spy video where he kills soldier, he was turned around and off guard).

Then we have the fact that Spy at most has showed to be capable to grapple with scout, and then scout gets overpowered by soldier with no problem.

Yes they both scale to the class 1 value, but one of these downscales that value.

Also the slap is tecnically classified as ap.

rocket launcher is a paperweight due to both resistances and the fact that Scout can tank hits from it.

Are you arguing that the literal weakest Spy could have had (20% less ap) has a stronger ap than Soldier's rocket launcher, that not only upscales the revolver due of the damage reduction but also literally heals you.

I'm not arguing ap in a base scenario is equal (altho the gun spy is using has 20% less firepower compared to stock, but those are details) but you are arguing that .

Also it's not like soldier has to get his shots right agaist spy, he can just shoot the ground and he has a 3 meter radius of explosion.





If Soldier get's shot he can regenerate with both the Black box and conqueror, if spy gets hit he cannot recover.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Also, I'd like to see an instance where someone gets into melee with Soldier and he chooses to shoot a rocket or rocket jump instead of trying to fistfight them. Because every instance I can remember or find has him immediately go for melee and abandoning all ranged combat.

By the way... This your goat in melee?

Bra he was literally turned around and caught off guard by a dude who can one tap him in those conditions

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Also, I'd like to see an instance where someone gets into melee with Soldier and he chooses to shoot a rocket or rocket jump instead of trying to fistfight them. Because every instance I can remember or find has him immediately go for melee and abandoning all ranged combat.

If you mean comics by that he weirdly did not have his rocket launcher for most of it.

Wich it's a crime

 

[Poketmonsrs]

Still waiting for Spy rep.

My bad for taking so much time. I’ve been rereading the comics to familiarize myself with the characters again.

Currently Landon’s arguments do make sense

 

[LandonTheGuy]

My bad for taking so much time. I’ve been rereading the comics to familiarize myself with the characters again.

Currently Landon’s arguments do make sense

I would like to shake your hand one day, this is the first time i hear this here

 

[Rex_Eckles]

My bad for taking so much time. I’ve been rereading the comics to familiarize myself with the characters again.

Currently Landon’s arguments do make sense

Take your time!

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hm...

So... basically never.

Also rocket jumping is like, something that civilians do to get around. Rockets aren't all they're made out to be.

Yes, there's not a single piece of evidence that Spy is physically capable to contend with soldier in a grappling match (don't pull the meet the spy video where he kills soldier, he was turned around and off guard).

It's also BLU soldier. But, I would remind you, that Soldier is the only one of the mercs not named Heavy to have Class 1 LS feats. If they're not comparable, Spy doesn't have Class 1 LS.

Then we have the fact that Spy at most has showed to be capable to grapple with scout, and then scout gets overpowered by soldier with no problem.

So a casual bout is now grounds to say that Spy damn near putting him on the ground in one slap is just not relevant? really?

Yes they both scale to the class 1 value, but one of these downscales that value.

So where's Spy's Class 1 feat or scaling if it's not to Soldier? Because straight up, most of the mercs lack LS feats, and I'm pretty sure engie's buildings are around Athletic to Peak Human, so he's unusable.

Also the slap is tecnically classified as ap.

Well good because Spy is never getting grabbed, all of his fighting style is a straight up fight is dodging like the french fry he is.

Are you arguing that the literal weakest Spy could have had (20% less ap) has a stronger ap than Soldier's rocket launcher, that not only upscales the revolver due of the damage reduction but also literally heals you.

Remember when I called Soldier's rocket launcher a paperweight? Guess what Spy's going to know his gun is? A paperweight. Because both have the same upgrades.

I'm not arguing ap in a base scenario is equal (altho the gun spy is using has 20% less firepower compared to stock, but those are details) but you are arguing that .

Yeah I'm arguing they're comparable in AP in melee, because they literally are.

Also it's not like soldier has to get his shots right agaist spy, he can just shoot the ground and he has a 3 meter radius of explosion.

75% damage resistance+Rockets being a mode of transportation for civilians means that will at most be a slight botherance to Spy. Which will immediately be regenerated because both are considered to have max ticks of regen, AKA Spy heals 10 HP a second.

If Soldier get's shot he can regenerate with both the Black box and conqueror, if spy gets hit he cannot recover.

They're both Robot War. He literally can.

Bra he was literally turned around and caught off guard by a dude who can one tap him in those conditions

I want you, now, to listen to what happened after the cut.

Spy did not go for the one-shot, he went for the london style of doing things. If Soldier(Ignoring that this is BLU soldier...) could just grab and overpower him like a doll with one arm, do you really think Spy would have been able to do that that easily?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

It's also BLU soldier. But, I would remind you, that Soldier is the only one of the mercs not named Heavy to have Class 1 LS feats. If they're not comparable, Spy doesn't have Class 1 LS.

I'm saing he downscales 800 kg, not that he doesn't scale.

He will likely do what scout did in the clip showed

So where's Spy's Class 1 feat or scaling if it's not to Soldier? Because straight up, most of the mercs lack LS feats, and I'm pretty sure engie's buildings are around Athletic to Peak Human, so he's unusable.

No no no, u misunderstood, it's not "He complitly doesn't scale so 500 kg or whatever from the dispencer calc" it's simply "Downscales 800 kg"

Well good because Spy is never getting grabbed, all of his fighting style is a straight up fight is dodging like the french fry he is.

Uh....

Remember when I called Soldier's rocket launcher a paperweight? Guess what Spy's going to know his gun is? A paperweight. Because both have the same upgrades.

But one literally 2 shots the other

Yeah I'm arguing they're comparable in AP in melee, because they literally are.

Yes in ap in mele they are comparable

75% damage resistance+Rockets being a mode of transportation for civilians means that will at most be a slight botherance to Spy. Which will immediately be regenerated because both are considered to have max ticks of regen, AKA Spy heals 10 HP a second.

The first one is kind of a misconception witch i don't give u fault for it, because rockets were usually cause of broken legs or varius injuries, witch then made Lincon invent stairs.

If rocket launchers weren't effective weapons, WHY IS SOLDIER USING THEM?

They're both Robot War. He literally can.

Good, 3 layers of regeneration + being way tankier vs 1 layer of regeneration

I want you, now, to listen to what happened after the cut.

Spy did not go for the one-shot, he went for the london style of doing things. If Soldier(Ignoring that this is BLU soldier...) could just grab and overpower him like a doll with one arm, do you really think Spy would have been able to do that that easily?

Considering they were 2 ppl, at least one would have been fighting back, but we do not hear anything.

It's likely valve wanted to put the fact that he was stabbing them and cutted to the meet the team thing to make a joke about censoring violence.

Regardless, that really doens't tell me nothing exept that he needed them distracted, because meet the Spy is literally spy waiting for the right occasion to strike because that's how spy works.

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

Spy has L’Etranger and Cloak and Dagger, stock equipment otherwise
Soldier has Black Box, Concheror, and Disciplinary Action

lol

 

[LandonTheGuy]

lol

Guy with a water gun vs Guy with Mr.IVaporizeTanks

The water gun has still almost the same ap

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm saing he downscales 800 kg, not that he doesn't scale. He will likely do what scout did in the clip showed No no no, u misunderstood, it's not "He complitly doesn't scale so 500 kg or whatever from the dispencer calc" it's simply "Downscales 800 kg"

Landon, dude, You are arguing Spy is not comparable to Soldier in any way in LS but then also saying he can scale from Soldier's feats in LS. This is what we in the business call circular scaling. Either Spy scales, or he does not scale and you're going to downgrade him to this dispenser calc. Pick one.

I'm not asking for much, I'm asking for ******* ANYTHING justifying Spy downscaling from Soldier in LS that's not "Uh big number?"

Uh....

But one literally 2 shots the other

Landon. If this is the case, you are hereby required to remove this calc from all scaling. Otherwise, Scout, the weakest Merc, while INJURED, can take 3 rockets point blank and still be capable of speech. This is another case of you circular scaling.

Yes in ap in mele they are comparable

The first one is kind of a misconception witch i don't give u fault for it, because rockets were usually cause of broken legs or varius injuries, witch then made Lincon invent stairs.

fair.

If rocket launchers weren't effective weapons, WHY IS SOLDIER USING THEM

Because they have splash and work fine on Grey Mann's bots. Otherwise we have multiple cases of people scaling to them, like Scout above. Scout is also scaled to the Black Box ashing people on his profile.

Good, 3 layers of regeneration + being way tankier

You realize none of that matters, right? Spy has multiple instances of getting behind someone and backstabbing them in melee between comics and his meet the video against Sniper.

Considering they were 2 ppl, at least one would have been fighting back, but we do not hear anything.

Yeah cause Spy didn't even let them land a hit.

It's likely valve wanted to put the fact that he was stabbing them and cutted to the meet the team thing to make a joke about censoring violence.

Regardless, that really doens't tell me nothing exept that he needed them distracted, because meet the Spy is literally spy waiting for the right occasion to strike because that's how spy works.

Which is why he said "right behind you" instead of just backstabbing them right there and then, right?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Let's see soldier advantage and spy advantage:

Spy:

• More skilled
• Has an instakill (only applicable only if soldier is turned on him)
• 1 layer of regen

Soldier:

• His weapon does 20% more due on a damage reduction that
• 3 layers of regeneration
• Mobility if spy tries anything funny with his funny knife
• Possible instakill (Neck snapping)
• Another layer of regeneration if he can charge the conqueror
• Speed advantage with the conqueror boost

 

[DaReaperMan]

• Mobility if spy tries anything funny with his funny knife

Gonna point out that to my knowledge he doesn't like running from melee

• Possible instakill (Neck snapping)

For the record I actually do agree with this, it's just that as Spy's profile is now, he's comparable to Soldier in LS and this doesn't work

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Didn't soldier one shooted blue spy with his shovel while soldier had his back turned to him? Red spy is more skilled then blue soldier we don't really have a comparable situation to red spy vs blue spy

Soldier countering backstab from a blue spy seen more impresive to me then Spy feat

so far I'm more convinced about soldier arguments

Soldier fra

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I’m voting for Soldier too.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Didn't soldier one shooted blue spy with his shovel while soldier had his back turned to him? Red spy is more skilled then blue soldier we don't really have a comparable situation to red spy vs blue spy

Remember that BLU is technically fodder and is treated as such

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Remember that BLU is technically fodder and is treated as such

same argument to Spy folding blue soldier and heavy

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Landon, dude, You are arguing Spy is not comparable to Soldier in any way in LS but then also saying he can scale from Soldier's feats in LS. This is what we in the business call circular scaling. Either Spy scales, or he does not scale and you're going to downgrade him to this dispenser calc. Pick one.

I'm not asking for much, I'm asking for ******* ANYTHING justifying Spy downscaling from Soldier in LS that's not "Uh big number?"

Landon. If this is the case, you are hereby required to remove this calc from all scaling. Otherwise, Scout, the weakest Merc, while INJURED, can take 3 rockets point blank and still be capable of speech. This is another case of you circular scaling.

fair.

Because they have splash and work fine on Grey Mann's bots. Otherwise we have multiple cases of people scaling to them, like Scout above. Scout is also scaled to the Black Box ashing people on his profile.

You realize none of that matters, right? Spy has multiple instances of getting behind someone and backstabbing them in melee between comics and his meet the video against Sniper.


Yeah cause Spy didn't even let them land a hit.

Which is why he said "right behind you" instead of just backstabbing them right there and then, right?

can we just restart the conversation? i don't even feel like reading this.

Look, i think soldier got this because he will wear down due of ap advantage and overall better regeneration.

 

[DaReaperMan]

can we just restart the conversation? i don't even feel like reading this.

Look, i think soldier got this because he will wear down due of ap advantage and overall better regeneration.

I'm still of the opinion that something needs to give here(Either Scout doesn't scale to rockets or rockets aren't strong), but better regen is fair, Conch gives 4 HP a second.

Or is it?

Doing quick math, 200 divided by 14 is 14.2857143, meaning it takes approximately two more seconds for Soldier's regen to heal him from 1 HP to full than for Spy's HP to get to full from 1 HP. You can remove their HP values here for a non-potentially game mechanics answer

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm still of the opinion that something needs to give here(Either Scout doesn't scale to rockets or rockets aren't strong), but better regen is fair, Conch gives 4 HP a second.

It could be just boilled down to blue team having weaker equipment, as in this shorts it's shown a more predominance to RED team anyway.

Or is it?

You are on that sauce... a V sauce

Doing quick math, 200 divided by 14 is 14.2857143, meaning it takes approximately two more seconds for Soldier's regen to heal him from 1 HP to full than for Spy's HP to get to full from 1 HP. You can remove their HP values here for a non-potentially game mechanics answer

we also have to count that the black box regens 20 hp for hits if we are using game mechanics.

Also spy is on the 125 hp, so considering blast resistency soldier would need 5 hits to kill spy while spy would need 17 hits (not taking into account regeneration).

 

[CatLover313]

Ugh, this is an in-verse matchup so I can't exactly use cross-verse reasoning.

Going to go with Soldier ig, due to these two comments:

Let's see soldier advantage and spy advantage:

Spy:

• More skilled
• Has an instakill (only applicable only if soldier is turned on him)
• 1 layer of regen

Soldier:

• His weapon does 20% more due on a damage reduction that
• 3 layers of regeneration
• Mobility if spy tries anything funny with his funny knife
• Possible instakill (Neck snapping)
• Another layer of regeneration if he can charge the conqueror
• Speed advantage with the conqueror boost

Didn't soldier one shooted blue spy with his shovel while soldier had his back turned to him? Red spy is more skilled then blue soldier we don't really have a comparable situation to red spy vs blue spy

Soldier countering backstab from a blue spy seen more impresive to me then Spy feat

so far I'm more convinced about soldier arguments

Soldier fra