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Establishing the Concepts in A Novel Concept | Indexing a new LitRPG Novel

Rikimarox2

He/Him
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Hello! This should be (not) so simple, but let's start.

To start off, let's go about the series. The novel is called A Novel Concept, a LitRPG Webnovel that is published on RoyalRoad. It currently has over 14 million views, and the author makes (estimate) bare-minimum 2000 dollars a month just from this novel in Patreon, likely in 4000 range ngl.
Edit: I was wrong with my estimate. Looking back on way back machines when the monthly money was available to see, he gets around 6000~ish dollars a month.

So, here is the current profile of the main protagonist, Priam:

Pretty much everything there is finished, with only 1 easy calculation remaining to be evaluated and that is it.

The current page covers till chapter 96-98 (With some referencing way beyond), of which there are 460 chapters. The way I'm planning to separate keys is going by Tribulations, so the first key would be shortly after finishing the First Tribulation Trial.

The current profile, while not complete, does contain the most important controversial abilities, such as Concept Manipulation (Type 3, to 2, and to 1) as well as Information Manipulation (Type 2). And these need a discussion.

About Info Type 2​

Aether is the thing that is considered as Type 2 Info, and that's because;
Aether is the fundamental, infinite fluid that dictates the laws of all that exists. According to its configurations and associations, it creates the fundamental particles and vectors of all forces.
Manipulating aether is the key to the Zenith. Everything is possible with aether—even dominating Dimensions, Karma, Soul, Energy, Matter, Order and Chaos. To control the primordial fluid is to go beyond these Concepts. This skill knows no limits and its potential is infinite. The only limit to your power is your imagination.
Aether is the fundamental, primordial fluid that kind exists everywhere, and make the fundamental particles and vectors of all forces, and dictate the laws of all that exist. Hell, it was even mentioned that there was something called "Aetherial Code" which all beings have (Although not elaborated on a lot yet)

I'm honestly not sure if it fits Type 2 Info. Some said it does, but some also thought it was something else (Metaphysics).

I'm open to more options ngl.

About Concepts​

Now this part is a bit screwed. So, there are Concepts in the world (Some are considered god tier entities, not just normal concepts), and we have these kinds of statements about the Concepts;
Priam's heart opened to the world and to the mist. More than just the water molecules of the atmosphere, it opened up to the mist of aether. An infinite fog in every sense of the word. A Mist that shaped Universes and Worlds. A haze that created lives, dreams and concepts. A destructive Mist, symbol of entropy.
The above is after learning a bit about the Concept of Mist iirc, and it is kind of obvious that they are universals. But whether they are Type 1, I'm not sure, but the quote does say it created lives, dreams and concepts, and worlds.

There are other statements like this;
[Supremacy - Domain] - A Domain allows its user to control his environment through his mind and one or more concepts. Operating in Stages, Domains are used in every Universe.
Which means those with Domains control it via their mind and concepts. And concepts one understands give their attributes more to the wielder, such as Priam passively generating Mist and having Mist in his eyes after understanding slightly about the concept of Mist.

As for the Soul, this part is tricky. It is stated to be the core, the foundation of one's being, and the very essence of a being. It was also described as the "Uniqueness" of a being, the true expression of individuality and the house of Concepts.

Now, for the most part, that seems like either normal soul stuff, or Concept Type 3, but there is a problem. The soul houses Concept/Concept Fragments, ie """parts""" of concepts (Not exactly sure how it works) which is why the MC can manipulate certain Concepts and stuff, and his Domain being imprinted with the Concept. The problem is that since the soul houses those concepts, would the soul need to be type 2, or 1? I'm honestly unsure.

Layering!​

Oh boy. This is a bit complicated, but this novel is a LitRPG novel, which means it has a sort of game-like system, and the characters get skills/abilities/titles/talents and stuff like that, and those things level up.
Now why would that matter? Well, let's start with Priam (and it would stay with priam lmao). He has a skill called [Manipulation Resistance], and it does this;

Pheromones, drugs, chemicals, optical or sound illusions, mental skills... They all have one thing in common: they are a bridge between your free will and an external order. They are means used by your enemies to manipulate you. This resistance cements your free will, mind, personality, and consciousness. It is now harder to subtly force your hand.

Some manipulations are still allowed by your subconscious. You will continue to fall under the spell of the pretty woman winking at you. But don't forget that she may also be trying to manipulate you... You fall into her trap with a smile, you fool!
This covers fear manipulation as well, and really majority of stuff that affects the mind. So by default, he already has baseline resistance.
The thing is, there were multiple instances where he was feared, but after leveling it up once or twice, he managed to resist the fear.

For example, in his fight against a Wyvern, Priam was almost pissing himself out of fear;
The Earl decided to listen to his most advanced skill. Before using his most powerful attack, Priam wanted to get the measure of his opponent. The wyvern drew closer, and Priam rode the mist to dodge. Or rather, tried to. Unnatural panic paralyzed him as he met the creature's gaze.

The monster in front of him was descended from dragons. It was invincible, and Priam had no chance of...
Then right after, his Manipulation Resistance increased in level, and he managed to somewhat move;
Lvl Up: [Manipulation Resistance] lvl 8
WILL +3


Priam leaped to the side with the help of [Kinetic Control]. The dodge was ugly and graceless. Priam couldn't stop his acceleration and ended up rolling uncontrollably. The ground shook as he struggled to his feet.
However, he still gets scared of the Wyvern, albeit to a slightly lesser extent:
Before him stood a terrifying monster. If Safamu had been the embodiment of a noble and mighty lion, the wyvern was that of a destructive mythological monster. Its dimensions were roughly the same as those of an Airbus A320. An aura of violence and power was palpable when observing the wyvern.


When Priam met his gaze, the primal part of his brain ordered him to flee.
Only Micro and [He Who Eludes Death] kept his hopes alive.


The wyvern's eyes met Priam's, and it hissed. Its piercing gaze froze Priam on the spot as it opened its mouth. Shit! Trembling, Priam concentrated his Potential on his resistance. The reptile's mouth began to glow.
However... he then leveled up his Manipulation resistance, and was pretty much able to act normally afterwards, and even fight the Wyvern:
Lvl Up: [Manipulation Resistance] lvl 9
WILL +3

POT -5


His muscles began to respond again, and Priam let himself fall backward, straddling the mist.
So, in just 2 level ups for his passive skill, he was able to overcome a fear strong enough to paralyze and made him panic as hell.

That's not the only instance either, for when Priam entered a building with a statue of a god, he was overcome by fear and terror, with spasms overcoming his body, his skills automatically deactivating without him noticing, preventing him breathing, and kind of even in a mind control;
Reaching the coffin, Priam prevented the lid from closing and, by forcing it, blocked the mechanism. Feeling oppressed, he raised his eyes. The pressure exerted by the statue of Viracocha was terrifying, and Priam could have sworn it was watching him. As drops of sweat began to appear on his forehead, he looked up at the false god.

His body began to tremble and Priam broke out in a cold sweat. Higher Tiers weren't just about accumulating more attributes. Qualitative changes were taking place, and he felt overwhelmed by the divine aura. Spasms soon overcame Priam.

Yet he refused to look down. His ultimate goal, the one he had chased all his life and for which he had selected maximum difficulty in the Tutorial, was to be free. He refused to bow to a false god. In an instant, [Eidetic Memory] showed him all the moments of his life when he had dreamed of his freedom. Priam groaned, gritting his teeth.

Black dots began appearing in his vision, and Priam staggered. Micro had deactivated itself without him noticing.

A feeling of absence seized him and Priam slapped himself. The pain woke him up. He was now on his knees, still looking at Viracocha. His chest was numb, preventing him from breathing. The statue and the god behind it threatened to break his will. He would never be free. He was only a weak human…

Yet right after, his Manipulation Resistance rose up by a level, which managed to make him wake up and resist the aura, and then, oh boy, piss... on the statue of the god that caused him fear.
Lvl up: [Manipulation Resistance] lvl 2


WILL +3


Mobilizing all his willpower, Priam slowly stood up and pulled down his pants.

"I'm free."

Priam looked Viracocha in the eye and began to urinate on the statue.

Don't ask.

There are also instances of poison manipulation where he is able to resist poison in just a few minutes, but you get the point.

Anyways, it is clear that with just a level or two, one can pretty much get a layer of resistance against something majority of the time (It's a bit more complicated than that since there are rarities for skills but still). However, I'm not sure if that's enough to assume that 1-2 levels always equals a layer (ignoring stuff like fire manipulation, obviously), and I'd appreciate any input on this.

If it does, then almost every skill Priam has will be layered by quite a bit (In 10+ range, for the majority of skills. Some skills are more wonky than others, some have higher levels while others are still in the single digits)

That's about it, honestly. I mostly made this to just address the controversial stuff (CM, Info, etc...), and to see if there are any issues with the current profile and what should I do or add, or if there is something wrong with it.

Tl;Dr​

  1. Adding the MC to the wiki
  2. Concepts are Type 2, possibly Type 1 because they are obviously universal, and create worlds and stuff.
  3. Info 2 is because Aether is the fundamental energy that dictates all the laws of the universe, and everything is made of it, including Concepts.
  4. Layering will be a bit dense. Every level or two would grant a layer, so almost of Priam's (MC) skills and abilities will be layered.
 
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the author makes (estimate) bare-minimum 2000 dollars a month just from this novel in Patreon, likely in 4000 range ngl.
Lmao why was this needed 😭😭😭?
Anyway this seems interesting.
 
Lmao why was this needed 😭😭😭?
Anyway this seems interesting.
Just in case someone says this novel isn't notable enough.

This seems like a perfect place for Vs
Wdym?

Anyways, despite how the profile makes him seem like a god hax, he isn't really THAT powerful. He isn't gonna instantly destroy your concept or info or smth, and if you resist his domain, then things become equal since he likes to fight physically. Hell, he doesn't even use his soul stuff unless he knows his opponent can resurrect or doesn't die despite being butchered.

Honestly, had it not been for his domain, I would've said he would be very fun for normal vs matches.
 
It was for a novel concept
You know, reading aether I thought it may have been it for a moment, but lol, lmao
Anyways, deffo disagree with aether being info now that I know it's ANC, and I don't remember it being close info from what I remember
The concepts should just outright be type 1, half and half on the soul, don't remember all the descs for it
Anyways as for the layers, I don't think it exactly qualifies the way we'd want layers to qualify, but potency isn't entirely determined by layers anymore, so it shouldn't matter (at least when it comes to battles and whatnot), so shrug
 
You know, reading aether I thought it may have been it for a moment, but lol, lmao
Anyways, deffo disagree with aether being info now that I know it's ANC, and I don't remember it being close info from what I remember
The concepts should just outright be type 1, half and half on the soul, don't remember all the descs for it
Anyways as for the layers, I don't think it exactly qualifies the way we'd want layers to qualify, but potency isn't entirely determined by layers anymore, so it shouldn't matter (at least when it comes to battles and whatnot), so shrug
God bless, didn't know you knew about it lmao.

Anyways, for the Concept shenanigans, I'll just make them Type 1 outright, but for the soul, would something like "Type 3, possibly Type 1" be enough?

As for Aether, I'm honestly not sure what to put it as. Just Energy Manipulation, or should I just put Physics Manip (Even tho it created physics and stuff)?

For the layers, isn't that how the wiki qualifies it? Character A has resistance, Character B bypasses that resistances (Hence 1 layer), Character A later on becomes more resistant, and able to resist Character B's attack despite affecting him before, hence an extra layer? Of course there's a matter of actual potency (Ie what kind of effects an ability does compared to what another character resisted) and shenanigans, and how if the potency was greater than the stuff other characters resist despite layers, then it kinda doesn't matter, but still, I feel like these should technically qualify for layers.

Also, I assume you are fine with the ratings? I was a bit skeptical about the Durability part, but he still does have much higher Constitution and bunch of stuff that increases his Durability, so I eventually settled with it.
 
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For the layers, isn't that how the wiki qualifies it? Character A has resistance, Character B bypasses that resistances (Hence 1 layer), Character A later on becomes more resistant, and able to resist Character B's attack despite affecting him before, hence an extra layer? Of course there's a matter of actual potency (Ie what kind of effects an ability does compared to what another character resisted) and shenanigans, and how if the potency was greater than the stuff other characters resist despite layers, then it kinda doesn't matter, but still, I feel like these should technically qualify for layers.
Layers for the wiki are completely or effectively no selling a lesser hax and are completely discrete; this is more continuous than layers so I wouldn't use layers to scale it, but eh
Anyways, for the Concept shenanigans, I'll just make them Type 1 outright, but for the soul, would something like "Type 3, possibly Type 1" be enough?
I'd have (and was already planning to) start back the series reading back from the beginning, but I'm iffy on the concept typing, mostly as yeah, domains pretty explicitly are embedded within the soul and all, but we also have instances of him putting directly physical things within his soul and whatnot, but also skills are literally aether encoded into the soul and stuff (also while checking There Is No Heaven explicitly says it only works on defenceless souls), which includes his abilities to control (local) instances of concepts and stuff, so I'm not sure
 
Layers for the wiki are completely or effectively no selling a lesser hax and are completely discrete; this is more continuous than layers so I wouldn't use layers to scale it, but eh

I'd have (and was already planning to) start back the series reading back from the beginning, but I'm iffy on the concept typing, mostly as yeah, domains pretty explicitly are embedded within the soul and all, but we also have instances of him putting directly physical things within his soul and whatnot, but also skills are literally aether encoded into the soul and stuff (also while checking There Is No Heaven explicitly says it only works on defenceless souls), which includes his abilities to control (local) instances of concepts and stuff, so I'm not sure
I think the feats outweigh it here tbh. the soul is probably fine as a concept type thing
 
I don't see anything on Aether that can be argued for Info 2, the only stuff for that is the suppose Aether Code but without further information i will refrain from saying it is Info 2. Though you can certainly argue Aether to be conceptual since it work like Universal in the verse

Concept for Soul is oke, though it is Type 3 i guess

Neutral on Layers for now
 
Though you can certainly argue Aether to be conceptual since it work like Universal in the verse
It isn't a universal though, lol?
It's a substance that's omnipresent and whatnot, but it's still a substance at the end of the day, it isn't like there's a concept of Aether (at least to my knowledge) out there with all aether being it's particulars.
It's closer to a chaos esq substance than anything and we don't make that stuff conceptual even when it originates concepts without stuff pointing in that direction
I think the feats outweigh it here tbh. the soul is probably fine as a concept type thing
I mean I'm of the opinion that this is basically just normal soul behaviour but we (along with a good bit of fiction) just treat the soul in a scuffed way.
 
Layers for the wiki are completely or effectively no selling a lesser hax and are completely discrete; this is more continuous than layers so I wouldn't use layers to scale it, but eh
Ah, I did not know it works that way, since the Hax page mentioned this;
An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance.
Which, based on what I understood, is that if something became stronger and was shown to bypass (or resist) something that previously affected them, it'd be fine to be considered a layer.

Either way, it shouldn't really change that much, since the levels are still potency since, well, they get stronger lmao. I'm fine with whatever the people would want it to qualify as.
I'd have (and was already planning to) start back the series reading back from the beginning, but I'm iffy on the concept typing, mostly as yeah, domains pretty explicitly are embedded within the soul and all, but we also have instances of him putting directly physical things within his soul and whatnot, but also skills are literally aether encoded into the soul and stuff (also while checking There Is No Heaven explicitly says it only works on defenceless souls), which includes his abilities to control (local) instances of concepts and stuff, so I'm not sure
Yeah it's a bit so I'm honestly unsure. I guess I'll just wait for other peoples' input for the time being.

Though I still don't know what to index Aether as. Just plain energy manip?
 
Which, based on what I understood, is that if something became stronger and was shown to bypass (or resist) something that previously affected them, it'd be fine to be considered a layer.

Either way, it shouldn't really change that much, since the levels are still potency since, well, they get stronger lmao. I'm fine with whatever the people would want it to qualify as.
Yeah, our standards for layers are you need to be outright immune to smth to get a layer of hax/resistance
 
Yeah, our standards for layers are you need to be outright immune to smth to get a layer of hax/resistance
But wouldn't some of the layers technically qualify? IIRC there are quite a lot of feats where a certain hax just doesn't work cause someone resists it via their resistance skill. The fear stuff, for example, with the Wyvern. After Priam leveled up 2 times, he wasn't affected in the slightest by the fear anymore, and proceeded to even kill the dragon without being affected by its fears. His manipulation resistance didn't level up afterwards because dude just resisted it. It wasn't like, he can fight but he's still somewhat affected or smth, but rather he just, did not care afterwards because he wasn't affected.

Wouldn't that technically be an immunity? Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I'm really not sure about this, and would really appreciate the details since this might affect other verses I've made I think (Can you give an example, if possible?).
 
But wouldn't some of the layers technically qualify? IIRC there are quite a lot of feats where a certain hax just doesn't work cause someone resists it via their resistance skill. The fear stuff, for example, with the Wyvern. After Priam leveled up 2 times, he wasn't affected in the slightest by the fear anymore, and proceeded to even kill the dragon without being affected by its fears. His manipulation resistance didn't level up afterwards because dude just resisted it. It wasn't like, he can fight but he's still somewhat affected or smth, but rather he just, did not care afterwards because he wasn't affected.

Wouldn't that technically be an immunity? Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I'm really not sure about this, and would really appreciate the details since this might affect other verses I've made I think (Can you give an example, if possible?).
Yeah I do remember that, you could maybe argue that 2 levels is enough but I personally wouldn't and just clarify the matter in any related threads

Anyways the way it works is that to get layers you need a hax to bypass a resistance, the resistance has to be full by our standards and the hax measured or the way the verse measures it can't be continuous (typically, I know a verse where the measure is continuous but each unit is absolute to the lower one, so it is what it is on that front), ie in SMT or other RPG's with "resisting" elemental attacks, sure you take damage and stuff and aren't burnt/frozen/electrocuted beyond normal capacity, even moreso if you have a resistance, but until you reach nullifying attacks, you won't get a complete layer on that end, anything that allows you to pierce through said resistances would be another layer, such as attacks with pierce from SMT
 
Man i hate layers, but very well then. I suppose I'll wait for more staff to decide on the layer shenanigans because it is a bit complicated (additionally, by "clarify the matter", u mean just showing the feats and potency?)

Anyways! The only calc that was not evaluated has finally been accepted, so only 1-2 more staff dudes and then i should be able to post the profile.
 
I’m afraid to say that I don’t think we can allow this verse to be indexed on the wiki, as its average viewership is too low. The same applies to the following entries as well. For further information, please check editing rules page under the section for creating character/verse pages.
 
I’m afraid to say that I don’t think we can allow this verse to be indexed on the wiki, as its average viewership is too low. The same applies to the following entries as well. For further information, please check editing rules page under the section for creating character/verse pages.
This verse is really popular on royalroad though and the viewership is excellent. The average viewership is a horrible indicator to go off on. Say there's like 500 more views on the 1st chapter, those 500 views then get "spread out" across all chapters into the average count.

Basically works like view count divided by the chapter count. This works regardless of how many people viewed a single chapter and doesn't account for nuances.
 
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This verse is really popular on royalroad though and the viewership is excellent. The average viewership is a horrible indicator to go off on. Say there's like 500 more views on the 1st chapter, those 500 views then get spread out across all chapters into the average count.
This also doesn't help when three of the most popular series that rake in literal millions of dollars dont even reach 100k average viewers. Does that mean there wasnt 100k unique viewers? No, it just means average viewers aren't a good gauge for whether something is notable enough.
 
@FinePoint, @Mr. Bambu
I remember you two had a similar conversation before about Royal Road and indexing its novels on our wiki. Could you both take a look here when you get a chance? Much appreciated 🙂
Well, this does seem to have notability issues.

I've said before how the view counts on Royal Road seem severely inflated. This story only has 14,000 followers and 5000 favorites.

They do have 3000 paying members on Patreon, but many other obscure web novel projects have in excess of 25,000 members, and the lowest tier is only $4.
 
Well, this does seem to have notability issues.

I've said before how the view counts on Royal Road seem severely inflated. This story only has 14,000 followers and 5000 favorites.

They do have 3000 paying members on Patreon, but many other obscure web novel projects have in excess of 25,000 members, and the lowest tier is only $4.
This is just... ignorant to say the least. If they have 25,000 paying members then they're not obscure in the web novel community??? Also to be clear its 600 paying members.

Also I've talked with someone whos familiar with all this and they said that this novel is at least likely to a million views let alone 100k views on the first chapter. Also according to them publishers start getting interested at around 1k-2k followers and will straight up come to you with offers with 5k followers, so clearly it's notable enough to publishers (but in the end its up to the author whether they want to or not and this one prefers to keep it free with patreon incentive). This just seems overall ignorant about how web novel space operates.
 
Well, this does seem to have notability issues.

I've said before how the view counts on Royal Road seem severely inflated. This story only has 14,000 followers and 5000 favorites.

They do have 3000 paying members on Patreon, but many other obscure web novel projects have in excess of 25,000 members, and the lowest tier is only $4.
This falls around the numbers you gave and if we consider this a minimum and being an "obscure" web novel project, then I hope you realize how untenable that is when one of the highest earning and most popular web novels are around the ballpark for what you consider "obscure".
NH2sM4b.png
 
This is just... ignorant to say the least. If they have 25,000 paying members then they're not obscure in the web novel community??? Also to be clear its 600 paying members.
I see. I was looking at the 'total members' number, but when expanding the details it does specify 600 paid members. That means the 25,000 number I stated is probably inaccurate too.

Either way, that really sort of subtracts any sense of sufficient notability from my mind.
 
Well, this does seem to have notability issues.

I've said before how the view counts on Royal Road seem severely inflated. This story only has 14,000 followers and 5000 favorites.

They do have 3000 paying members on Patreon, but many other obscure web novel projects have in excess of 25,000 members, and the lowest tier is only $4.
This is a completely absurd stance to take. These are both well within the point where the author can live solely off of their writing, and the latter example is someone who is straight up rich off of their writing. If these are considered "obscure," there are very few published novels that would not also be considered obscure despite demonstrably being very popular.
 
I see. I was looking at the 'total members' number, but when expanding the details it does specify 600 paid members. That means the 25,000 number I stated is probably inaccurate too.

Either way, that really sort of subtracts any sense of sufficient notability from my mind.
Dude with your logic you're expecting only the very very top to qualify. As someone whos very familiar with web novel stuff your expectations are way too inflated and lack understanding of the medium.
 
You might as well ban the entire site at this point because this is functionally the top 0.01% on Royal Road.

riL9pps.png


From these stats, there are straight up less than 100 stories out of over 100,000 currently on Royal Road are even in the same ballpark as this story. Getting to this level of fame is not "easy" and it requires as much notoriety as some indie games and whatnot.

From personal experience talking to people in the community. This level of fame is enough to get the attention of publishers in the space. Publishers that aren't some random no-names, but who have actual connections with companies like Podium and Webtoon.

For example, one of the main publishing companies and which partners with Royal Road and takes spots on the front page, Mango Media, which has real connections to tradpub, will start considering your work at 3,000 followers. This may sound low to someone that's unfamiliar but when you're truly familiar with the space you realize that this is a herculean task.
62Jp3Ow.jpeg


So no, I don't get being so stingy with Royal Road. It's already stingy enough. This story is a member of the top 0.001% of the site, well enough to be considered for notable publishing deals or interest.
 
This is a completely absurd stance to take. These are both well within the point where the author can live solely off of their writing, and the latter example is someone who is straight up rich off of their writing. If these are considered "obscure," there are very few published novels that would not also be considered obscure despite demonstrably being very popular.
Well as far as I know our main concern is not whether someone can afford to live off their work, but if it's "notable or popular outside of the versus debating communities".

There are web novels with tens of millions of readers, and over a hundred notable web novels in the National Library of China.

This site itself is clearly obscure, and therefore so is everything on it- that is not surprising to me.
 
Well as far as I know our main concern is not whether someone can afford to live off their work, but if it's "notable or popular outside of the versus debating communities".

There are web novels with tens of millions of readers, and over a hundred notable web novels in the National Library of China.

This site itself is clearly obscure, and therefore so is everything on it- that is not surprising to me.
How is the most popular western web novel site obscure
 
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