Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats

[DemonicDude]

@Reiner04 I have found and recorded the speed feat video.

• Jetray reacts and dodges eletric blasts from Ra'ad i believe these can be calced and then placed on profile of jetray this should solve the issue.

 

[Chariot190]

@Reiner04 I have found and recorded the speed feat video.

• Jetray reacts and dodges eletric blasts from Ra'ad i believe these can be calced and then placed on profile of jetray this should solve the issue.

Electricity can be as low as supersonic, and going frame by frame, Jetray barely moves relative to them here and there (he is dodging, just not by much relative to distance they moved). Even worse the explosions tend to move more than him, now you could argue "well alien explosion", but, in the clip you posted an actual normal propane gas explosion from a propane tank is shown at the same speed as Jetray's flight mid-combat which is like, 1800 m/s.
That doesn't have an excuse, that's legit just him moving relative to a supersonic+ blast.

 

[Rosa]

The supporters have repeatedly said that they don't even bother trying to make the lasers fit into the SOL standards since the scaling is MFTL+ anyway, so they're just saying "the laser is MFTL+ duhhh"

This is a bit of a strawman as we're not saying to reject the SoL standard for lasers and instead take them as MFTL+. The lasers in question aren't stated to be the speed of light nor implied to be, they're not even called lasers but just generic red energy blasts, so we're asking why we should assume these are only the SoL as opposed to a variable speed that matches the characters they scale to. The SoL laser standard says that lasers, if its consistent, can be scaled to the SoL, not that lasers (or any "laser-looking projectiles") HAVE to be CAPPED at the speed of light and therefore are an anti-feat towards any higher scaling.

 

[Rosa]

I actually agree with this. The downgrade does have enough votes currently to go through. However, the proper implementation needs to be accounted for, and given the length of the thread, I wouldn't mind going through that on a more focused one.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 would you find this acceptable?

What anti-feats specifically got accepted? Because it doesn't seem like there was significant engagement with the counterarguments raised to the specific anti-feats, the only thing being debated at length is whether combat speed scales to travel speed in Ben 10.

For instance, OP included a feat labelled "XLR8 is blitzed by a truck" and the clip was XLR8 getting a truck THROWN at him, same with Jetray having an antifeat as "Jetray is outpaced by a car" and it's the same context of it being thrown at him whilst he's flying in the air. Then you move onto OP labelling energy blasts from alien tech or superpowered beings as lasers and therefore inherently capped at the SoL without any argument as to why they're lasers. These issues have been raised, yet no one's meaningfully addressed them nor have they been removed /crossed out in the original message. If we're going to do a verse-wide downgrade from MFTL+ to relativistic (or lower) then surely we need to be clear as to what anti-feats specifically are taken as valid.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Electricity can be as low as supersonic, and going frame by frame, Jetray barely moves relative to them here and there (he is dodging, just not by much relative to distance they moved). Even worse the explosions tend to move more than him, now you could argue "well alien explosion", but, in the clip you posted an actual normal propane gas explosion from a propane tank is shown at the same speed as Jetray's flight mid-combat which is like, 1800 m/s.
That doesn't have an excuse, that's legit just him moving relative to a supersonic+ blast.

Lightning is not considered supersonic+ in speed by default in the wiki. That's probably around MHS+ to Hypersonic at minimum. Also, are we really scaling speed off explosions by mystical creatures? This thread is going nowhere if the blog stuff isn't discussed anyways

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Also, are we really scaling speed off explosions by mystical creatures?

Did you just ignore the part where he literally tells you (and we literally see) that the explosion is caused entirely by a mundane propane tank (Ohhh mystic alien propane tank) and we see thier motion relative to that explosion...

Also what kind ridiculous ass backwards logic even would this response have been... "Well you see the explosion is caused by a mystic creature (it's not actually) so no we can't scale it to normal explosions... Don't mind the fact that I'm simultaneously arguing that we scale the lightning from said mystic creature to average lightning speed less that a sentence ago."

Genuinely how do you even address this level of willful ignorance... Straight ignoring anything inconvenient to your point including you contradicting yourself in the space of a sentence.

 

[Chariot190]

Lightning is not considered supersonic+ in speed by default in the wiki.

I didn't say lightning, I said electricity. Those, while similar (obviously), are not the same inherent speed, electricity through air's baseline is exponentially lower.
If you're going to reply to me, could you not strawman me and actually quote what I said, instead of basically the exact opposite?

That's probably around MHS+ to Hypersonic at minimum.

Well, no, you have to actually prove it qualifies for actual lightning standards, just being called lightning isn't good enough either by the way, if it ain't coming from cloud to ground or is natural.
That applies to literally every other verse too.

Also, are we really scaling speed off explosions by mystical creatures?

Uh, since when was a propane tank a mystical creature my dude? I have like 3 in my backyard. I was using one last night even.

This thread is going nowhere if the blog stuff isn't discussed anyways

Well it's not going to be going anywhere if you reply like that no.

DemonicDude posted a clip.
In the clip we see:
Electrical jolts (not natural lightning, so the speed either needs to be actively calculated, unless a statement of some sort exists) being thrown, these move quicker than Jetray in most of the cases (Supersonic to Supersonic+ at most, even under the framing of natural lightning you'd be looking at MHS at best, either way not FTL).
Explosions moving faster than Jetray (your excuse is "it comes from a mystical creature, which seems to be the most common rebuke here, just "don't count it").
A NATURAL propane explosion from a barbeque grill of all things, moving relative to the prior explosions in the scene (so kind of shoots down your "mystical creature" excuse), but also outpacing Jetray in that exact same sequence while he's mid-flight.

That's an explicit mach 5.2 anti-feat that has no excuse like "it comes from a alien" or "it's sci-fi", just a straightforward friction based propane explosion, is shown moving more distance than he does and engulfing him as he's mid-flight.

And that's ALL in a 3 minute clip, imagine the total 200+ episodes?

 

[Firestorm808]

Can we please refrain from cloggin up the thread?

We're working on compiling all the feats and data. If you want to add some to the list, you can just message me.

Arguing over them here isn't productive.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Did you just ignore the part where he literally tells you (and we literally see) that the explosion is caused entirely by a mundane propane tank (Ohhh mystic alien propane tank) and we see thier motion relative to that explosion...

In the same clip we also see the normal electric blasts causing explosions. I was referencing to these

Also what kind ridiculous ass backwards logic even would this response have been... "Well you see the explosion is caused by a mystic creature (it's not actually) so no we can't scale it to normal explosions... Don't mind the fact that I'm simultaneously arguing that we scale the lightning from said mystic creature to average lightning speed less that a sentence ago."

This is not what I meant

I didn't say lightning, I said electricity. Those, while similar (obviously), are not the same inherent speed, electricity through air's baseline is exponentially lower.
If you're going to reply to me, could you not strawman me and actually quote what I said, instead of basically the exact opposite?

Even the average speed of electricity in electronic devices is much faster than just Supersonic

Electricity is usually associated with the movement of electrons, or other charge carriers, through a conductor in the presence of an electric potential difference or an electric field. In everyday electrical and electronic devices, signals (such as a pulse) travel as electromagnetic waves around the conductors typically at 50%–99% of the speed of light in vacuum

Well, no, you have to actually prove it qualifies for actual lightning standards, just being called lightning isn't good enough either by the way, if it ain't coming from cloud to ground or is natural.
That applies to literally every other verse too.

Sure, but even so, point above stands

Uh, since when was a propane tank a mystical creature my dude? I have like 3 in my backyard. I was using one last night even.

Was talking about the lightning attacks

Well it's not going to be going anywhere if you reply like that no.

DemonicDude posted a clip.
In the clip we see:
Electrical jolts (not natural lightning, so the speed either needs to be actively calculated, unless a statement of some sort exists) being thrown, these move quicker than Jetray in most of the cases (Supersonic to Supersonic+ at most, even under the framing of natural lightning you'd be looking at MHS at best, either way not FTL).
Explosions moving faster than Jetray (your excuse is "it comes from a mystical creature, which seems to be the most common rebuke here, just "don't count it").
A NATURAL propane explosion from a barbeque grill of all things, moving relative to the prior explosions in the scene (so kind of shoots down your "mystical creature" excuse), but also outpacing Jetray in that exact same sequence while he's mid-flight.

That's an explicit mach 5.2 anti-feat that has no excuse like "it comes from a alien" or "it's sci-fi", just a straightforward friction based propane explosion, is shown moving more distance than he does and engulfing him as he's mid-flight.

I feel like counter feats against this have already been presented earlier or will be discussed in the other thread anyways. There's no point addressing it even if I want to

Can we please refrain from cloggin up the thread?

We're working on compiling all the feats and data. If you want to add some to the list, you can just message me.

Arguing over them here isn't productive.

Alright

 

[AmonInChains]

Even the average speed of electricity in electronic devices is much faster than just Supersonic

Electricity is usually associated with the movement of electrons, or other charge carriers, through a conductor in the presence of an electric potential difference or an electric field. In everyday electrical and electronic devices, signals (such as a pulse) travel as electromagnetic waves around the conductors typically at 50%–99% of the speed of light in vacuum

is blud proposing Rel electricity
lmao

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

In the same clip we also see the normal electric blasts causing explosions. I was referencing to these

That makes no sense when he was specifically and rather explicitly talking about the propane explosion and your response reads as you saying he's scaling those explosions instead of that.

This would be equivalent to me saying "are we really scaling strength off dumbbells created by magic" in response to a person explicitly talking about and referring to a scene in a clip where the character struggles to pick up normal dumbbells where the person literally writes "Normal Dumbbells" in thier post.

It only really makes sense as a reply if you either A) didn't bother watching the part of the scene being referenced or B) completely ignored the part of the person's statement clearly indicating they were referring to the mundane object as of you developed selective blindness

Either way it reads as you being willfully ignorant

This is not what I meant

Then your reply is wholly worthless and has nothing to do with what you were replying to.

You basically just wasted space, time and everyone's patience because you refused to recognize the part of what you were explicitly replying to that was conveniently not answerable by you

 

[Chariot190]

In the same clip we also see the normal electric blasts causing explosions. I was referencing to these

And yet I wasn't. Or well, I am now because those aren't depicted as being any quicker than the propane blast so there's that too.

This is not what I meant

And yet it was what I meant and you replied to me arguing against it, you're literally admitting to strawmanning in real time here.

Even the average speed of electricity in electronic devices is much faster than just Supersonic

Yes, but was it in an electronic or insulated wiring when Jetray dodged it?
No, it wasn't, so it's completely irrelevant to the feat and scene as it's not moving through wiring to begin with.

Sure, but even so, point above stands

No it doesn't because he was firing electrical currents through the air, not insulated wiring? That fact alone causes it to degrade exponentially as it travels.
Your point doesn't stand, it's not even applicable to the scene to begin with; it's tantamount to saying a bullet is MHS+ because a bullet can be shot by a high velocity electron rail gun even though in context it's coming from a M9 or something.

Like yeah, it can be, in a completely different context and situation.

Was talking about the lightning attacks

And I wasn't, so stop strawmanning me?
Though you still need to prove that, given the scale of that particular scene, calling the electrical blasts, "lightning" is misleading and makes it sound exponentially higher than it actually is.

I feel like counter feats against this have already been presented earlier or will be discussed in the other thread anyways. There's no point addressing it even if I want to

Case in point.
Note how you didn't say the anti-feat was wrong, not true, or didn't happen.
It did happen, and there's zero excuse for it given what caused it.
Jetray, on screen, is outsped by a mach 5.2 explosion, in real time, mid-combat, mid-flight, and he even had a bit of a head start no less.

How many is enough exactly? 1? 2? 30?
You can't just keep calling back to the same exact one or two feats that likely already have issues themselves for every single legitimate anti-feat/statement, like once? Sure. Twice? Yeah **** it.
Like 12 because that's at least how much contradictory stuff Jetray has I've seen in the past day alone?
Idk chief at that point, you're going to need a good chunk more.

And if there's no point addressing it, why did you reply to me, strawman me, and ignored the actual point I was making? If you're not going to address it, don't reply to begin with.

 

[Rosa]

How many is enough exactly? 1? 2? 30?
You can't just keep calling back to the same exact one or two feats that likely already have issues themselves for every single legitimate anti-feat/statement, like once? Sure. Twice? Yeah **** it.
Like 12 because that's at least how much contradictory stuff Jetray has I've seen in the past day alone?
Idk chief at that point, you're going to need a good chunk more.

Can you show the "12" anti-feats? Again, no one is saying what anti-feats in the thread they consider valid given each one is being individually contended with.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

And yet I wasn't. Or well, I am now because those aren't depicted as being any quicker than the propane blast so there's that too.

And yet it was what I meant and you replied to me arguing against it, you're literally admitting to strawmanning in real time here.

There's also the fact they were wrestling. Half your argument was also based on "electricty could be supersonic". Speaking of which, how does it make sense for a monster that seemingly rides electrical lines to be that slow?

Yes, but was it in an electronic or insulated wiring when Jetray dodged it?
No, it wasn't, so it's completely irrelevant to the feat and scene as it's not moving through wiring to begin with.

Did he not absorb all of this from the electrical line and simply used it to shoot it back? Also, where did you get that Electricity is Supersonic+ when travelling in the air specifically

No it doesn't because he was firing electrical currents through the air, not insulated wiring? That fact alone causes it to degrade exponentially as it travels.
Your point doesn't stand, it's not even applicable to the scene to begin with; it's tantamount to saying a bullet is MHS+ because a bullet can be shot by a high velocity electron rail gun even though in context it's coming from a M9 or something.

Like yeah, it can be, in a completely different context and situation.

And I wasn't, so stop strawmanning me?
Though you still need to prove that, given the scale of that particular scene, calling the electrical blasts, "lightning" is misleading and makes it sound exponentially higher than it actually is.

Case in point.
Note how you didn't say the anti-feat was wrong, not true, or didn't happen.
It did happen, and there's zero excuse for it given what caused it.
Jetray, on screen, is outsped by a mach 5.2 explosion, in real time, mid-combat, mid-flight, and he even had a bit of a head start no less.

How many is enough exactly? 1? 2? 30?
You can't just keep calling back to the same exact one or two feats that likely already have issues themselves for every single legitimate anti-feat/statement, like once? Sure. Twice? Yeah **** it.
Like 12 because that's at least how much contradictory stuff Jetray has I've seen in the past day alone?
Idk chief at that point, you're going to need a good chunk more.

And if there's no point addressing it, why did you reply to me, strawman me, and ignored the actual point I was making? If you're not going to address it, don't reply to begin with.

I disagreed with that feat being Supersonic+ specifically due to the fact electricity was not that slow, but Firestorm asked us to stop clogging the thread, hence why I didn't want to continue??

 

[Lloydblitzed]

That makes no sense when he was specifically and rather explicitly talking about the propane explosion and your response reads as you saying he's scaling those explosions instead of that.

This would be equivalent to me saying "are we really scaling strength off dumbbells created by magic" in response to a person explicitly talking about and referring to a scene in a clip where the character struggles to pick up normal dumbbells where the person literally writes "Normal Dumbbells" in thier post.

It only really makes sense as a reply if you either A) didn't bother watching the part of the scene being referenced or B) completely ignored the part of the person's statement clearly indicating they were referring to the mundane object as of you developed selective blindness

Either way it reads as you being willfully ignorant

I rewatched and we litterally see the electricity being conducted in water (when he falls into the pool) and electric lines (beginning of the fight) as real lightning would

 

[Chariot190]

There's also the fact they were wrestling.

At the same speed he was moving before they started grappling without any shown or visible slowdown, even showing him moving at the same speed as he tackled him at as he dragged him off screen.
Be real now dude, this is ridiculous.
And are they so weak that merely wrestling while still actively flying is enough to drop speed by entire magnitudes?

Half your argument was also based on "electricty could be supersonic"

Half my argument? Pretty sure the bolts had nothing to do with the explosion.
They were two separate observations. But let me rephrase that.
Electricity is supersonic by default in air without sufficient proof otherwise.

Did he not absorb all of this from the electrical line and simply used it to shoot it back?

Yeah? And? The instant it leaves the wiring it's no longer moving at that speed?

You quite literally just explained why yourself it doesn't qualify, he absorbed, and then fired it, through the air, as in NOT the thing that makes it go vroom, it's no longer in the the thing that makes it that fast, you should know this if you're going to argue it.

Also, where did you get that Electricity is Supersonic+ when travelling in the air specifically

Various PDFs and studies? Where do you think I got them?
It's site standards too, why do you think we have lightning standards to begin with, wouldn't make sense if any stray bolt is secretly half the speed of light or as fast as lightning, no? Even being as generous as possible with the floor a real air-discharge bolt is usually more like a streamer/leader propagating through air.. One paper on positive connecting leaders notes measured values ranging from 1e4 to 1.4e6 m/s, and a paper on positive streamers in ambient air reports minimal values around 1e5 m/s for those streamers.
Tldr is that at best, you're looking at mach 29 floor and that's suspect, and they're faster than Jetray in that scene sooo...

I disagreed with that feat being Supersonic+ specifically due to the fact electricity was not that slow,

Unfortunately, there's nothing to disagree about, it quite literally is.
Is the explosion from a natural propane tank?
Yes.
What is the speed at which they explode?
Definitely not what you're suggesting (mach 5.2).
Is this shown relative, faster even, than Jetray?
Correct.

Ergo it's a supersonic anti-feat, not much else to it.

but Firestorm asked us to stop clogging the thread, hence why I didn't want to continue??

This isn't clogging the thread, it's tackling just one of many more of Jetray's anti-feats, you should get used to it given we're going to have to do this for hundreds of others too.

Can you show the "12" anti-feats? Again, no one is saying what anti-feats in the thread they consider valid given each one is being individually contended with.

5 different statements explicitly placing his speed exponentially below what's being framed here, 2 cap statements that contradict the high end feats being argue, ablation speeds, bolts, a goddamn propane tank, debris, normal people perceiving him as he takes tens of seconds to fly a specified distance, etc.

Better question is, where is the "constant" and "hyper consistent" MFTL combat/reaction feats I asked for thrice now that I was told existed?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

At the same speed he was moving before they started grappling without any shown or visible slowdown, even showing him moving at the same speed as he tackled him at as he dragged him off screen.
Be real now dude, this is ridiculous.
And are they so weak that merely wrestling while still actively flying is enough to drop speed by entire magnitudes?

Half my argument? Pretty sure the bolts had nothing to do with the explosion.
They were two separate observations. But let me rephrase that.
Electricity is supersonic by default in air without sufficient proof otherwise.

Yeah? And? The instant it leaves the wiring it's no longer moving at that speed?


You quite literally just explained why yourself it doesn't qualify, he absorbed, and then fired it, through the air, as in NOT the thing that makes it go vroom, it's no longer in the the thing that makes it that fast, you should know this if you're going to argue it.

Various PDFs and studies? Where do you think I got them?
It's site standards too, why do you think we have lightning standards to begin with, wouldn't make sense if any stray bolt is secretly half the speed of light or as fast as lightning, no? Even being as generous as possible with the floor a real air-discharge bolt is usually more like a streamer/leader propagating through air.. One paper on positive connecting leaders notes measured values ranging from 1e4 to 1.4e6 m/s, and a paper on positive streamers in ambient air reports minimal values around 1e5 m/s for those streamers.
Tldr is that at best, you're looking at mach 29 floor and that's suspect, and they're faster than Jetray in that scene sooo...

I'll try to keep this simple. I already said it to the other guy but we see the same electric attack act conductive as real lightning which also K.Os the alien (when he used his powers in the pool) so I doubt they should be treated as low as supersonic+

Unfortunately, there's nothing to disagree about, it quite literally is.

Is the explosion from a natural propane tank?
Yes.
What is the speed at which they explode?
Definitely not what you're suggesting (mach 5.2).
Is this shown relative, faster even, than Jetray?
Correct.

Ergo it's a supersonic anti-feat, not much else to it.

Even if the propane tank is a valid feat on its own, it makes no sense for it to be used as an anti feat while Jetray fights an alien that casually glides throught electrical lines near Ben's house within the same fight

 

[Rosa]

5 different statements explicitly placing his speed exponentially below what's being framed here, 2 cap statements that contradict the high end feats being argue, ablation speeds, bolts, a goddamn propane tank, debris, normal people perceiving him as he takes tens of seconds to fly a specified distance, etc.

Can you show them? Idk what I'm supposed to do with "ablation speeds, bolts, debris". I'm familiar with the propane tank clip, I'm assuming the 5 statements are from the Ben 10 magazines saying Jetray is several times the speed of sound (of which I've only seen 4), what's the other 2 "cap statements"? What's the reference to people seeing Ben travel a distance?

Better question is, where is the "constant" and "hyper consistent" MFTL combat/reaction feats I asked for thrice now that I was told existed?

Listed in the thread.

 

[Mommyleona]

I'll try to keep this simple. I already said it to the other guy but we see the same electric attack act conductive as real lightning which also K.Os the alien (when he used his powers in the pool) so I doubt they should be treated as low as supersonic+

Regular electricity does the exactly same thing...

Even if the propane tank is a valid feat on its own, it makes no sense for it to be used as an anti feat while Jetray fights an alien that casually glides throught electrical lines near Ben's house within the same fight

Why does it make no sense? It's a completely valid anti feat on it's own

 

[DemonicDude]

Ben, Gwen and Kevin would scale to Aggregor as Ben transformed into Ampfibian and Aggregor dodged his blast projections in Close quarters combat.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll try to keep this simple. I already said it to the other guy but we see the same electric attack act conductive as real lightning which also K.Os the alien (when he used his powers in the pool) so I doubt they should be treated as low as supersonic+

If you do not know how actual electricity, lightning, and more actually works, stop arguing it. It's apparent that you're just throwing excuses out now and seeing which ones stick.

Your argument has now boiled down to "water conducts electricity" to say it's lightning, be fr.

Even if the propane tank is a valid feat on its own, it makes no sense for it to be used as an anti feat while Jetray fights a man that casually glides throught electrical lines near Ben's house

Yes it does? You're reaching for excuses to make the electrical attacks be a million times quicker then they have to be. Like actually look at your arguments so far.

"It's lightning".
No it isn't, that needs to be actually proven to be natural lightning speed.
"Electricity in wires is Rel".
Ok cool, but every single time Jetray was attacked it was out of a wire.
"It CONDUCTS".
Yeah so does ALL ELECTRICITY, that ain't really helping either side, it's like saying water is wet.

You're straight up skipping the burden of proof EVERY verse has to go through, you never just assume this scales like that, it don't matter if it Pokemon, Fire Emblem, JJK, JoJo, MGS, and more (All of which had to go through this, some don't even qualify, see Volgin), you need to prove it, you're not, you're just observing it has electrical properties.
So do the sparks that fall on Ben's face, and those barely subsonic.

Meanwhile if we just go by wiki standards and use the baselines or what they'd be without other sufficient evidence or statements, it would unironically line up with said anti-feat and his other existing statements and lines.

I rewatched and we litterally see the electricity being conducted in water (when he falls into the pool) and electric lines (beginning of the fight) as real lightning would

You know that applies to electricity of any and all velocities right? Being conductive is not indicative of speed.
Any electrical discharge in water, it can be as low as mach 5.8 even, and honestly probably is here, and it also doesn't get much higher than that in this situation (it can be about 25-30kms, but the drop off is so fast it may as well not exist).

https://pubs.aip.org/aip/jap/article/124/16/163301/1063291/Propagation-and-branching-process-of-negative?

Here's some yap, get reading.

Like you're talking mm to cm drop off too given the streamers, really not a good thing to argue hit and basically blew Jetray tf out.

Can you show them? Idk what I'm supposed to do with "ablation speeds, bolts, debris". I'm familiar with the propane tank clip, I'm assuming the 5 statements are from the Ben 10 magazines saying Jetray is several times the speed of sound (of which I've only seen 4), what's the other 2 "cap statements"? What's the reference to people seeing Ben travel a distance?

Listed in the thread.

There is no way you legitimately just asked all that, and then finished off with "they're in the thread" to my own inquire, a tad hypocritical no?
They're listed in the thread? Same for these, you can read the thread again in full if need be. Don't ask me to gather if you won't do the same back, like be real now.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Downgrade makes sense. MFTL+ being applied to everyone and their mother was always really wack.

 

[Chariot190]

Ben, Gwen and Kevin would scale to Aggregor as Ben transformed into Ampfibian and Aggregor dodged him.

Where's the MFTL feat?
Also I can't tell who you're trying to argue for, you legitimately just gave another anti-feat...

 

[Rosa]

There is no way you legitimately just asked all that, and then finished off with "they're in the thread" to my own inquire, a tad hypocritical no?
They're listed in the thread? Same for these, you can read the thread again in full if need be. Don't ask me to gather if you won't do the same back, like be real now.

I'm saying they're in the thread because I'm not arguing with you on the MFTL+ feats, I'm asking people agreeing to the thread to outline their agreement clearly. I've outlined my disagreement, stop trying to pivot away from the simple question lol.

 

[DemonicDude]

legitimately just gave another anti-feat...

How is this an anti feat?
they reacted to him with ease. These can be calced and applied to profile.

Ben, Gwen and Kevin would scale to Aggregor as Ben transformed into Ampfibian and Aggregor dodged his blast projections in Close quarters combat.

Ampfibian is shooting pure electricity so this could give decent results. Come to think out of Aggregor kinda blitz them in combat but they are still comparable

 

[Chariot190]

I'm saying they're in the thread because I'm not arguing with you on the MFTL+ feats, I'm asking people agreeing to the thread to outline their agreement clearly. I've outlined my disagreement, stop trying to pivot away from the simple question lol.

Wasn't a pivot it was a mutuality thing. I asked a simple question, you dodged and refused to comply.
Asking me to do the very same thing back is hypocritical, especially when I straight up said what they were too.
So, they're in the thread, read the thread, no middle man that way too

Also, why are you asking me for other people's disagreements? How am I supposed to know what feats they agree or disagree with?

 

[Rosa]

Wasn't a pivot it was a mutuality thing. I asked a simple question, you dodged and refused to comply.
Asking me to do the very same thing back is hypocritical, especially when I straight up said what they were too.
So, they're in the thread, read the thread, no middle man that way too

This is just childish lol, I can say "there are no mftl+ feats" and my question would still be the same. Idk why you're making this difficult.

Also, why are you asking me for other people's disagreements? How am I supposed to know what feats they agree or disagree with?

I'm not. I'm asking for YOUR reasons for agreeing to a downgrade thread. You said the anti-feats are compelling, fair enough, but now I want to know what anti-feats specifically are compelling to you since the original list of anti-feats (a) has been contended with, I'm not sure if you agree with all of them or have seen the counter arguments for all of them, and (b) don't include some of the anti-feats you have referenced - you've introduced new one's (which, again, is fair, I just want an easy list to make the thread easier to compute). You listed some, and some I'm familiar with (propane tank + 4 of the supersonic Jetray statements), the other's I'm not.

I'm literally not here to argue with you, man, stop being defensive, just trying to make the thread easier to digest and track since no one rn is clear on what anti-feats are being accepted too. So far everyone is repping different anti-feats and it's clogging the thread.

 

[AmonInChains]

I think the thread has reached enough agreement with Maverick & Dale votes.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Regular electricity does the exactly same thing...

Why does it make no sense? It's a completely valid anti feat on it's own

There's no indication his speed change when he use that ability so yeah it doesn't make sense for Ben to be outpaced by a propeller tank explosion while also fighting a guy that moves throught these lines like its no big deal, even if you take it as just electricity. Its also said his species can go MHS+ anyways via the same electricity powers, so supersonic+ is kinda absurd anyways (note that Im not proposing Jetray should or shouldn't be MFTL+ here, but that this specific feat used as an supportive placement for Supersonic+ makes no sense)

If you do not know how actual electricity, lightning, and more actually works, stop arguing it. It's apparent that you're just throwing excuses out now and seeing which ones stick.

Your argument has now boiled down to "water conducts electricity" to say it's lightning, be fr.

Yes it does? You're reaching for excuses to make the electrical attacks be a million times quicker then they have to be. Like actually look at your arguments so far.

"It's lightning".
No it isn't, that needs to be actually proven to be natural lightning speed.

I was arguing it shared propreties real lightning had. Doesn't matter anyways due to reply above

"Electricity in wires is Rel".
Ok cool, but every single time Jetray was attacked it was out of a wire.
"It CONDUCTS".
Yeah so does ALL ELECTRICITY, that ain't really helping either side, it's like saying water is wet.

I answered this to Mommyleona

You're straight up skipping the burden of proof EVERY verse has to go through, you never just assume this scales like that, it don't matter if it Pokemon, Fire Emblem, JJK, JoJo, MGS, and more (All of which had to go through this, some don't even qualify, see Volgin), you need to prove it, you're not, you're just observing it has electrical properties.

So do the sparks that fall on Ben's face, and those barely subsonic.

How am I skipping the "burden of proof" and why are you acting as if I sawed off your legs each time you reply to me?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I think the thread has reached enough agreement with Maverick & Dale votes.

So ig this continues in the new scaling chain thread?

 

[MaskedDragon908]

There's no indication his speed change when he use that ability so yeah it doesn't make sense for Ben to be outpaced by a propeller tank explosion while also fighting a guy that moves throught these lines like its no big deal, even if you take it as just electricity. Its also said his species can go MHS+ anyways via the same electricity powers,

"travel at lightning speed along power lines"
so only in power lines, just like real electricity.
This implies that the species abides by the same varying speed actual electricity has, which is interesting.

so supersonic+ is kinda absurd anyways (note that this specific feat used as an supportive placement for Supersonic+ makes no sense)

Masked disagrees.
If he varies in speed, it could be good support for Supersonic+

 

[Lloydblitzed]

"travel at lightning speed along power lines"
so only in power lines, just like real electricity.
This implies that the species abides by the same varying speed actual electricity has, which is interesting.

If he could morph at lightning speeds into the power lines with the same powers he uses to attacks, why shouldn't his attacks using the very same powers also be that fast?

Masked disagrees.

If he varies in speed, it could be good support for Supersonic+

See it as you'd like

 

[Chariot190]

There's no indication his speed change when he use that ability so yeah it doesn't make sense for Ben to be outpaced by a propeller tank explosion while also fighting a guy that moves throught these lines like its no big deal,

Yeah so as I said, the very fact they're slower than a propane blast is proof the speed isn't the same.
But no, moving through an insulated wire is not the same thing as moving as free electricity in open air. The very change in location is the indication.

A wire is a ready-made conductive path. The metal core is a good conductor, while the insulation is there to stop the current from leaking into stuff around it. Air, by contrast, is a pathetic conductor until you force dielectric breakdown. "Inside a wire" and "outside in air" are two different physical cases, they are fundamentally different.

Also, the fast thing on a line is the guided electrical signal/energy on the transmission. Its speed is set by the line's inductance/capacitance and the dielectric around it, so line speed is a property of the path. It's not some automatic proof of how fast the mf can move or fire when not using that path.

And the charges in the metal are not blasting down the copper at that same pace anyway. In ordinary wire, electron drift speed is tiny af; the signal moves orders of magnitude faster than the charges that carry it. So even in the wire case, "electricity speed" and "the dude's own movement speed" are not the same thing anyway.

Like ok cool, he can zip along a power line, all that proves is that he can use a pre-made conductive lane like a guide path. It doesn't inherently scale to his air shots, his movement speed off the line, or his dodge speed, or ANYTHING without extra proof, like my brother in Christ, this isn't even unique, Electro and RHCP both had to go through excessive hurdles to scale that slop outside of it, this is both basic physics and wiki standards.

even if you take it as just electricity. Its also said his species can go MHS+ anyways via the same electricity powers,

"lightning speed along power lines".
You kind of ignored the important caveat, that isn't general speed, it's in insulated wiring.

You just played yourself. Not only does it specify they're only that fast while traveling in insulated wiring, but somehow, they're slower than normal electricity while in a power line which would actually be faster than lightning.

Also, ain't that the same source that says Jetray flies at a few times the speed of sound?

so supersonic+ is kinda absurd anyways (note that Im not proposing Jetray should or shouldn't be MFTL+ here, but that this specific feat used as an supportive placement for Supersonic+ makes no sense)

It makes complete sense, it's straightforward, has no caveats, isn't caused by anything that can be excused, etc.
The fact a electrical dude happens to be there doesn't change that, it arguably just makes it worse given baseline electrical speed would corroborate everything in that scene, including the anti-feat.

I was arguing it shared

Not sufficient, you need to actually prove it is, not that it might be if you squint.

I answered this to Mommyleona

Answer wasn't sufficient, you need to actually prove it is, not that it might be if you squint.

How am I skipping the "burden of proof" and why are you acting as if I sawed off your legs each time you reply to me?

Telling you to prove what you're actually saying and not to strawman is the bare minimum.
If you can not actually prove it, stop arguing it.
If you can not go a post without strawmanning, do not reply.
You keep doubling down and trying to make excuses for something without even proving why that something should even be considered or taken as fact to begin with. Like either it is or isn't man, why we gotta play hot-potato back and forth instead of you just actually proving it or dropping it.

If he could morph at lightning speeds into the power lines with the same powers he uses to attacks, why shouldn't his attacks using the very same powers also be that fast?

See it as you'd like

Because it's IN A POWER LINE. The LINE ITSELF is what makes it fast, remove it from the line and it's no longer that fast.

Edit: Also pretty sure you just gave evidence to confirm it's not MFTL.

 

[Mommyleona]

There's no indication his speed change when he use that ability so yeah it doesn't make sense for Ben to be outpaced by a propeller tank explosion while also fighting a guy that moves throught these lines like its no big deal

Uh yeah there is? The propeller tank itself is already by itself a pretty good reason to consider that his speed outside of the wires is different from his speed when moving through wires as electricity
Also "it doesn't make sense" yet it straight up, on screen, happened, can't just dismiss it like it didn't happen
Him having different speeds when moving through the wires wouldn't be anything crazy either, ya know, a certain Pepper comes to mind, just as a random example chariot beat me to it
You can't just for no reason assume the speed is the same

even if you take it as just electricity. Its also said his species can go MHS+ anyways via the same electricity powers

Again, it even specifically mentions "through power lines", and even if you took that and scaled that to his regular speed, would still be a massive anti feat for all the MFTL+ stuff the whole thread is about

so supersonic+ is kinda absurd anyways (note that Im not proposing Jetray should or shouldn't be MFTL+ here, but that this specific feat used as an supportive placement for Supersonic+ makes no sense)

It does tho, since the electricity was clearly shown to be comparable to Jetray, along with other anti feats, along with the statements which seem to look oddly consistent with the anti feats, on top of the already questionable scaling to travel speed paints a pretty clear picture in my opinion

All in all, I'm in agreement with this thread so far

 

[GeneralSol16]

Uh yeah there is? The propeller tank itself is already by itself a pretty good reason to consider that his speed outside of the wires is different from his speed when moving through wires as electricity
Also "it doesn't make sense" yet it straight up, on screen, happened, can't just dismiss it like it didn't happen
Him having different speeds when moving through the wires wouldn't be anything crazy either, ya know, a certain Pepper comes to mind, just as a random example chariot beat me to it
You can't just for no reason assume the speed is the same

Again, it even specifically mentions "through power lines", and even if you took that and scaled that to his regular speed, would still be a massive anti feat for all the MFTL+ stuff the whole thread is about

It does tho, since the electricity was clearly shown to be comparable to Jetray, along with other anti feats, along with the statements which seem to look oddly consistent with the anti feats, on top of the already questionable scaling to travel speed paints a pretty clear picture in my opinion

All in all, I'm in agreement with this thread so far

Wtf? For real.
There are no anti Feats aside from actual PIS of rubble falling on them and now being massive hypocrites and saying that NOW every ******* Verae needs to be perfect in terms of "oh, but if they're MFTL+ they must see everything in slow motion 24/7" when that has NEVER been an actual requirements, especially when you look at other profiles.

The characters are MFTL+, and the anti Feats involving energy weapons are not anti Feats, neither are those related to PIS.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Wtf? For real.
There are no anti Feats aside from actual PIS of rubble falling on them and now being massive hypocrites and saying that NOW every ******* Verae needs to be perfect in terms of "oh, but if they're MFTL+ they must see everything in slow motion 24/7" when that has NEVER been an actual requirements, especially when you look at other profiles.

I don't understand why this absurd "slow mo" argument is used. If we follow that line of work, then nearly no verse in fiction should scratch the FTLs tiering

If he could morph at lightning speeds into the power lines with the same powers he uses to attacks, why shouldn't his attacks using the very same powers also be that fast?

See it as you'd like

Just admit its PIS since there's much higher feats proposed in here anyways. There's no point debating for Lightning Speed Ben 10 when there's higher feats

 

[Robo432343]

While I agree that corrections need to be made, proposing that "the verse should be downgraded back to Relativistic" is a very blanket approach.

The purpose of my scaling chain blog is to verify they consistency of combat speed feats and those that scale to them. We want to have reliable scaling chains. MFTL Combat Speeds do exist, but that doesn't mean everyone scales to them. I prefer we treat the matter with a fine tooth comb than a sledgehammer.

Everything was perfectly fine until you guys decided to give everyone MFTL+ combat speed and reactions. Look at the previous ratings on Ben's aliens.

XLR8:

Speed: Relativistic with Relativistic+ reactions (XLR8 is one of Ben's fastest aliens. Effortlessly performed this feat. Reacted to a flash of light) | Relativistic with Relativistic+ reactions (At least as fast as before)

Jetray:

Speed: Relativistic combat and reaction speed with Massively FTL+ flight speed (Jetray is one Ben's fastest aliens and is able to go into hyperspace)

Feedback:

Speed: Relativistic normally (Can keep up with Zs'Skayr), Varies, at most Massively FTL+ when travelling via Energy Manipulation (Feedback was able to keep up with a speeding car while running on a current-carrying path, Conductoids can easily travel through Teslavorr, a nebula roughly 60 light-years in diameter containing high levels of static discharge and comprised mainly of ionized gases, using minute voltage differences between to propel themselves)

Fasttrack:

Speed: Relativistic (Far faster than Kevin Levin. Saved 2 people after a high-tech alien grenade exploded in their hand. However, is generally portrayed to be slower than XLR8)

I rather prefer this than give anyone here MFTL combat

 

[Mommyleona]

There are no anti Feats aside from actual PIS of rubble falling

Yes there are, were just discussed, and have been mentioned before in the thread, or in the OP, most of which make sense to me, and need to be considered, not hand waved like you or others have been trying to do for a prolonged amount of time, despite being told that it doesn't help your position at all. You can't just chalk up any negative showings to "PIS", plot induced stupidity has to be proven, not slapped on randomly, what is the reason for plot to induced stupidity in the anti feat that was just talked about?
PIS is for feats that blatantly contradict normal, consistent showings, for the sake of plot, not for any anti feats you don't happen to like, simply not how it works

now being massive hypocrites and saying that NOW every ******* Verae needs to be perfect in terms of "oh, but if they're MFTL+ they must see everything in slow motion 24/7"

Strawmanning me doesn't help your case at all, never said that, never argued for that, this isn't even one of the main points, so I fail to see the reason for this outburst or how it contributes to the thread

The characters are MFTL+, and the anti Feats involving energy weapons are not anti Feats, neither are those related to PIS.

This is just being ignorant to the issues on purpose

 

[Chariot190]

"The establishing character traits, world building, gimmicks, consistent displays, portrayals, and even just basic feats that happen to show stuff but don't actually effect the plot and weren't required to happen, etc. is all PIS".
I mean we wanna be real for a sec? The only feats I can see even qualifying for PIS, would be a few of the alleged MFTL stray travel feats.
Honestly those legit sound like something actually subjected to be PIS like having a character be so fast as to shown up or move to a different location in time as to move the plot forward, as opposed to just general showings or key flavor and lore?

I'm not sure if ya'll even know what PIS means. We legitimately calling constantly repeated stuff, random showings and hard lines PIS now. Was it THAT important to the plot for the PIS tank to explode?

 

[Rosa]

Everything was perfectly fine until you guys decided to give everyone MFTL+ combat speed and reactions. Look at the previous ratings on Ben's aliens.

I rather prefer this than give anyone here MFTL combat

The issue here is a lot of the anti-feats proposed weren't relativistic, they were instead supersonic and below anti-feats, and so if your aim here is to say relativistic Ben 10 is far more consistent then we'd expect to see that through the feats yet by your account we don't. Further, whilst you didn't post these, the thread has since derailed into other anti-feats proposed by members which have influenced their agreement wherein they're arguing the characters should instead be supersonic to hypersonic based on their own anti-feats. If this was your aim, this CRT doesn't reflect that at all.

This issue, btw, is why typically when making threads about anti-feats overriding certain other feats it's standard to assess each anti-feat and for the vote to include the varying possible solutions proposed for the verse, a blanket thread like this causes a lack of clarity. I'm 99% sure the people noted down as agreeing don't all agree where Ben 10 should be tiered at all, nor is there seemingly any uniform proposal listing the anti-feats that are accepted and how they should be incorporated into the verses scaling (which characters are affected, their new tier, how to address the MFTL+ feats going forward, etc.)