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Invincible Season 4 General Discussion Thread

Qawsedf234 said:
I never brought up the core statement. You're arguing against a straw man here. The statement is did use was the one made in Hell that Mark never went against.
Click to expand...
Funny how that statement comes from Damien, who also thought that Mark would've struggled with Volcanikka, only for him to one shot her with any basic attack of his, also Thragg understood what they were about to do to Viltrum, confirming to me that Nolan's idea is something that Viltrumites are familiar with
 
Qawsedf234 said:
AP wasn't the issue as stated in the show. It was stamina and length of time. It's a direct anti-feat and backed by Nolan's actions with space racer
Click to expand...
Once again, I ask, how much force do you think is required to tunnel from the earth’s core?

Because I doubt a character who has even mountain level scaling is going to literally die of exertion before tunneling out to the surface when calculations have shown this requires far less energy than you’re implying.

Especially when we’re looking at a character who’s fast enough to cross celestial distances and likely travel such distances for extended periods.

And especially when said character isn’t actually mountain level, but has feats closer to planetary destruction then what Mark had at the start of the series.

As pointed out by others, we have several tectonic - planetary feats from Seasons 1 - 4 that would nullify the anti-feat as anything other than Plot Induced Stupidity. And I know for a fact you’re not arguing for that to take precedent here over the others. Even with Space Racer’s Viltrum involvement, we’re looking at levels of power far greater then Darkblood’s statement implies and, if certain calcs are to be believed, these levels would be verging on the Zettatons.
Qawsedf234 said:
I never brought up the core statement. You're arguing against a straw man here. The statement is did use was the one made in Hell that Mark never went against.
Click to expand...
Ah my mistake, I simply believe you were building to that point

Still my point against using that anti feat stands and I’m not the only person who sees that
 
Reyne said:
I think some of you are putting too much stock into what is just as likely to be a figure of speech with the Volcanica thing.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can see that, ultimately it doesn’t really matter to the grander point
 
There's a hidden feat in the episode that might be pretty good

Edit: Nevermind it aint gonna be all that
 
Last edited:
Some highlights from the Simon Racioppa AMA:

Question: What would happen if the motorbike guy fired his gun into a black hole?
Simon Racioppa: Big and energetic physics of some kind, I imagine.

Question: How big is Viltrum compared to Earth?
Simon Racioppa: It’s a lot more jacked.

Question: Lately it’s been seeming like a lot of the background Viltrumites are surprisingly strong. I mean, Thula was able to hold her own with Battle Beast! I was curious if you guys have your own hierarchy of strength among the characters or is it always about what’s cool for each episode?
Simon Racioppa: We have a VERY GENERAL hierarchy of strength figured out, but it’s not super granular. And unless someone’s clearly outmatched, I personally believe emotion and grit and why you’re fighting in the first place, matter almost as much as strength. That said, we try not to have ridiculous or unbelievable outcomes.

Question: Could Homelander defeat a Viltrumite ?
Simon Racioppa: Look, I love The Boys and the whole team over there and I even did a spin-off with them, but… No. Never in a million billion years.

Question: What is the reason why Thragg is able to suck Nolan in when winding up his punch, does Thragg have some kind of hidden ability or is it a byproduct of his sheer strength?
Simon Racioppa: It’s not a special power - it’s just the vacuum of him winding up catching Nolan by surprise. Unless that IS a special power…
 
glad to see we got something good from the AMA, I am sad they didnt answer the ones about Nolan in the purge or the Viltrum feat tho.

That statement about Viltrum being more jacked and grit mattering unless its absolutely a stomp are good tho, the former js helpful since kt implies Viltrum is somehow buffer then Earth? Maybe density or dudability?
 
Dinobot1996 said:
Some highlights from the Simon Racioppa AMA:

Question: What would happen if the motorbike guy fired his gun into a black hole?
Simon Racioppa: Big and energetic physics of some kind, I imagine.

Question: How big is Viltrum compared to Earth?
Simon Racioppa: It’s a lot more jacked.

Question: Lately it’s been seeming like a lot of the background Viltrumites are surprisingly strong. I mean, Thula was able to hold her own with Battle Beast! I was curious if you guys have your own hierarchy of strength among the characters or is it always about what’s cool for each episode?
Simon Racioppa: We have a VERY GENERAL hierarchy of strength figured out, but it’s not super granular. And unless someone’s clearly outmatched, I personally believe emotion and grit and why you’re fighting in the first place, matter almost as much as strength. That said, we try not to have ridiculous or unbelievable outcomes.

Question: Could Homelander defeat a Viltrumite ?
Simon Racioppa: Look, I love The Boys and the whole team over there and I even did a spin-off with them, but… No. Never in a million billion years.

Question: What is the reason why Thragg is able to suck Nolan in when winding up his punch, does Thragg have some kind of hidden ability or is it a byproduct of his sheer strength?
Simon Racioppa: It’s not a special power - it’s just the vacuum of him winding up catching Nolan by surprise. Unless that IS a special power…
Click to expand...
Viltrum more dense than Earth? Having greater gravity that Viltrumites evolved to handle would explain why they're so strong. They used that reasoning for the Ragnarrs
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Viltrum more dense than Earth? Having greater gravity that Viltrumites evolved to handle would explain why they're so strong. They used that reasoning for the Ragnarrs
Click to expand...
Adds up with the comics too since the guidebook mentioned it’s got 1.25 times our gravity
 
I'm pretty sure that the writers walked back on how powerful Allen is. His first notable feat post-recovery is dog-walking Anissa and taking no damage from her, yet she later goes on to box with and bleed Nolan, whom Allen is definitely not stronger than if their mutual showings in fights are anything to go by

They were clearly going for the Comic Allen route at first. Atp I'm gonna adopt the headcanon of Viltrumite zenkai boosts cuz even Thula was batting at a high level this episode
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
I'm pretty sure that the writers walked back on how powerful Allen is. His first notable feat post-recovery is dog-walking Anissa and taking no damage from her, yet she later goes on to box with and bleed Nolan, whom Allen is definitely not stronger than if their mutual showings in fights are anything to go by

They were clearly going for the Comic Allen route at first. Atp I'm gonna adopt the headcanon of Viltrumite zenkai boosts cuz even Thula was batting at a high level this episode
Click to expand...
In all honesty it's still hilarious too see the discourse online where the meme MU is Kirkman Vs us powerscalers. Literally every combat heavy narrative (especially comics or comic-based stories) is gonna have inconsistencies when it comes to feats and power levels but Invincible becoming the pop culture poster child for "a character is only as strong as the author intents during certain scenes" and generally bad powerscaling is pretty funny to see.

But yeah, Allen is a pretty egregious example but ironically if they retroactively nerfed him
to balance his 2nd zenkai boost later that even with it, he is still far below Thragg despite already being on Nolan's level and superior to most Viltrumites after the 1st zenkai boost
then the writers are very much aware of consistent powerscaling and Kirkman is just being a hypocrite lol!
 
Kirkman claims to hate power scaling, but then consistently trying to put Nolan above Superman, which is...power scaling. Lmao.

It's baffling how inconsistent Invincible is for a comic that has a single writer. Like with Marvel and DC they atleast have like a dozen different writers and things get turned into a mess.

And it's bad enough to hurt the story. It's like watching CW flash...okay it's not as bad but still.
 
Most writers are vibe-based more than anything, with consistency only being a thing that exists for the sake of the vibe. Homelander is stronger than Superman according to the show runner, because in his mind they occupy the same vibe of "World's strongest super-being" but Homelander has no morals:
I mean it's definitely Homelander because Superman has morals and Homelander is like a hardcore sociopath. So, it's like Homelander has no problem ripping off Superman's testicles, like zero. And Superman's gonna be like punching above the belt. So, it's kind of not a contest.
Click to expand...
His reasoning is non-sensical to (most) power scalers for example, but going from the writer's PoV the vibe seems correct. Homelander is an expy of Superman, if they were in the same story, he would indeed write their fight to go like that because Homelander is more ruthless as a person.

Mark and his crew lifting a city-sized spaceship is meant to be an awe-inspiring spectacle of strength, as if they fail millions of people are at risk of dying from the crash and explosions. They scream, put everything into it, and save the day. The vibe fits, it just makes every previous statement nonsensical since if Omniman can move meteors the size of Texas or shift planetary orbits, he should be able to stop the ship casually. Omniman struggles to kill a Bug, because it gives time for Oliver to show his dad that death isn't always the solution or option. Invincible gets clowned by random underground bugs because it allows the ReAnimen to be introduced, shown to be effective, and create a further rift between Mark and Cecil.

Ultimately, Invincible had a bunch of shifts in both purpose and tone. Originally, Kirkman wanted to make an early Image-style collaborative universe, but as time went on, he steadily started to dislike that idea and grew dissatisfied with the idea of his story being set in a never-ending universe. He'll randomly buff or nerf characters because that will fit the story better at the moment. I would like it to be more consistent, sure, but ultimately, most writers are just going off of whatever vibe works for the story. Omniman moving a planet isn't a strength feat necessarily; it's to show that he used to be someone capable of planetary genocide, but now hates that aspect of his history and is trying to make amends for it.

So when Kirkman writes that he hates power scalers, but also thinks Omniman beats Superman, those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive in my view. Kirkman's power scaling idea is that Twitter bros say Superman is Exaversal with Ludicrous FTL speed and can lift 8 biggatons. It's no longer taken as "the internal reference frame of a work's power structure" without clarification anymore imo.

Also, I've read works that are written by a power scaling like Shadversity's incredibly bad novel, Suggsverse works, and some really bad Xianxia novels. All of them are consistent in power scaling, but utterly cancerous to read because the important aspect (the narrative) gets shafted for cool explosions. Invincible being generally good story-wise with inconsistent power levels, is better than it having atomic precision power scaling with a bad narrative.
 
57Dev said:
Kirkman claims to hate power scaling, but then consistently trying to put Nolan above Superman, which is...power scaling. Lmao.

It's baffling how inconsistent Invincible is for a comic that has a single writer. Like with Marvel and DC they atleast have like a dozen different writers and things get turned into a mess.

And it's bad enough to hurt the story. It's like watching CW flash...okay it's not as bad but still.
Click to expand...
It's bad in the show because they have the episodes be near half hour where the comics for the most part were easier to nail on the food chain and didn't have much of a chance to drag shit out
 
So, is the "blue flames" around the three Viltrumites in that scene supposed to be plasma or them creating perfect combustion of air?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Most writers are vibe-based more than anything, with consistency only being a thing that exists for the sake of the vibe. Homelander is stronger than Superman according to the show runner, because in his mind they occupy the same vibe of "World's strongest super-being" but Homelander has no morals:

His reasoning is non-sensical to (most) power scalers for example, but going from the writer's PoV the vibe seems correct. Homelander is an expy of Superman, if they were in the same story, he would indeed write their fight to go like that because Homelander is more ruthless as a person.

Mark and his crew lifting a city-sized spaceship is meant to be an awe-inspiring spectacle of strength, as if they fail millions of people are at risk of dying from the crash and explosions. They scream, put everything into it, and save the day. The vibe fits, it just makes every previous statement nonsensical since if Omniman can move meteors the size of Texas or shift planetary orbits, he should be able to stop the ship casually. Omniman struggles to kill a Bug, because it gives time for Oliver to show his dad that death isn't always the solution or option. Invincible gets clowned by random underground bugs because it allows the ReAnimen to be introduced, shown to be effective, and create a further rift between Mark and Cecil.

Ultimately, Invincible had a bunch of shifts in both purpose and tone. Originally, Kirkman wanted to make an early Image-style collaborative universe, but as time went on, he steadily started to dislike that idea and grew dissatisfied with the idea of his story being set in a never-ending universe. He'll randomly buff or nerf characters because that will fit the story better at the moment. I would like it to be more consistent, sure, but ultimately, most writers are just going off of whatever vibe works for the story. Omniman moving a planet isn't a strength feat necessarily; it's to show that he used to be someone capable of planetary genocide, but now hates that aspect of his history and is trying to make amends for it.

So when Kirkman writes that he hates power scalers, but also thinks Omniman beats Superman, those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive in my view. Kirkman's power scaling idea is that Twitter bros say Superman is Exaversal with Ludicrous FTL speed and can lift 8 biggatons. It's no longer taken as "the internal reference frame of a work's power structure" without clarification anymore imo.

Also, I've read works that are written by a power scaling like Shadversity's incredibly bad novel, Suggsverse works, and some really bad Xianxia novels. All of them are consistent in power scaling, but utterly cancerous to read because the important aspect (the narrative) gets shafted for cool explosions. Invincible being generally good story-wise with inconsistent power levels, is better than it having atomic precision power scaling with a bad narrative.
Click to expand...
That last bit really resonates with me because I'm trying to create my own world, one with power consistency, but I very much want a proper story to be told. Everything should have a reason for being the way it is, with enough respect between each and every aspect of the story. It's always a bummer to read something that's out of place or conflicts with something else.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
snip
Click to expand...
While I understand your point, there is a big difference between power scaling and power consistency. For an example I would like to use CW Flash. If you have seen it, you already understand. Because if the powers were consistent, the entire story changes. Literally most episodes wouldn't happen or would happen completely differently. Major plot points make no sense in that show. It's so bad that entire youtube careers have been made by pointing out the dumb writing.

And again, if you are writing a superhero action story, that is important. Imagine a romance story, but the pivotal part, aka the relationship between characters is completely inconsistent. One episode they are making progress, the other suddenly the progress is forgotten for fake tension.

Now we call that out as bad writing, do we not ? Then why can't action stories be held to the same standard, the only difference between relations being power consistency rather than feelings. Even Ben 10 does it better than Invincible, (that's why it's goated and remembered. I actually wonder how much time after the finale will Invincible become a relic of the past.)

But yeah, Kirkman is pretty confusing. Not to mention he is bit of a prick. He runs Invincible like it's a live action tv show, clearly doesn't respect animation as a medium of story telling (the animation will never improve, because they know it will sell regardless) and besides just powerscaling his attitude towards legacy characters like Superman is pretentious as hell with that "Superman sucks" comment.
 
57Dev said:
While I understand your point, there is a big difference between power scaling and power consistency. For an example I would like to use CW Flash. If you have seen it, you already understand. Because if the powers were consistent, the entire story changes. Literally most episodes wouldn't happen or would happen completely differently. Major plot points make no sense in that show. It's so bad that entire youtube careers have been made by pointing out the dumb writing.

And again, if you are writing a superhero action story, that is important. Imagine a romance story, but the pivotal part, aka the relationship between characters is completely inconsistent. One episode they are making progress, the other suddenly the progress is forgotten for fake tension.

Now we call that out as bad writing, do we not ? Then why can't action stories be held to the same standard, the only difference between relations being power consistency rather than feelings. Even Ben 10 does it better than Invincible, (that's why it's goated and remembered. I actually wonder how much time after the finale will Invincible become a relic of the past.)

But yeah, Kirkman is pretty confusing. Not to mention he is bit of a prick. He runs Invincible like it's a live action tv show, clearly doesn't respect animation as a medium of story telling (the animation will never improve, because they know it will sell regardless) and besides just powerscaling his attitude towards legacy characters like Superman is pretentious as hell with that "Superman sucks" comment.
Click to expand...
Your rant seemed interesting but then I saw Ben 10 being used as an example of something having "better consistency" than Invincible and I burst out laughing out loud, that franchise is the number one face of inconsistencies in animated history, whatever level of inconsistencies Invincible has, Ben 10 has them but multiplied by a million
 
ReturnofKhadz said:
What fictional media would yall say is the best at this? Provided it’s not just a media with normal humans or street tier-types
Click to expand...
Mob Pyscho is pretty consistent, OPM is too for most part. One keeps it consistent. Witcher games are consistent too. MHA Vigilantes (not the main story) is surprisingly consistent because the grounded (for mha) scale means that they don't have the power creep.

I haven't read the entirety of Chainsaw man but so far the Anime is consistent. FMAB is another one.
 
Zyurtunder13 said:
Your rant seemed interesting but then I saw Ben 10 being used as an example of something having "better consistency" than Invincible and I burst out laughing out loud, that franchise is the number one face of inconsistencies in animated history, whatever level of inconsistency Invincible has, Ben 10 has it multiplied a million
Click to expand...
Oh right, sorry. I had been rewatching OV which is pretty consistent, but I forgot the nonsense that happens in AF, UAV and Omniverse. And yeah I know, on a second thought, stupid choice.
 
57Dev said:
Oh right, sorry. I had been rewatching OV which is pretty consistent, but I forgot the nonsense that happens in AF, UAV and Omniverse.
Click to expand...
OV isn't really consistent with itself at all tho, so your point is still not a great one, I can maybe see the possibility of it being a little more consistent than Invincible, but that's only if the inconsistencies keep happening in the show, otherwise Omniverse is also more inconsistent than Invincible.
 
Zyurtunder13 said:
OV isn't really consistent at all tho, so your point is still not a great one
Click to expand...
It isn't ? huh. For most part it seemed like it was. Like besides Vilgax and Kevin, Ben doesn't usually struggle too muc, It's not like he get's stomped by every villain of the week. Like most of his troubles are the wrong transformation and watch malfunctions.
 
57Dev said:
It isn't ? huh. For most part it seemed like it was. Like besides Vilgax and Kevin, Ben doesn't usually struggle too muc, It's not like he get's stomped by every villain of the week. Like most of his troubles are the wrong transformation and watch malfunctions.
Click to expand...
Then you weren't really watching the same show that I did.
 
Zyurtunder13 said:
Then you weren't really watching the same show that I did.
Click to expand...
Didn’t Ben tank Ultimate Echo Echo’s sonic doom which made him de-transform? I remember it just mildly annoying him, and Albedo was the one dishing it out. Could’ve been just for the sake of comedy, but I remember BS moments like that being in high volume within the series
 
ReturnofKhadz said:
Didn’t Ben tank Ultimate Echo Echo’s sonic doom which made him de-transform? I remember it just mildly annoying him, and Albedo was the one dishing it out. Could’ve been just for the sake of comedy, but I remember BS moments like that being in high volume within the series
Click to expand...
AF and onwards it is very inconsistent.

All this talk about Ben 10 got me thinking. Viltrumites vs Plumbers.
 
Zyurtunder13 said:
Your rant seemed interesting but then I saw Ben 10 being used as an example of something having "better consistency" than Invincible and I burst out laughing out loud, that franchise is the number one face of inconsistencies in animated history, whatever level of inconsistencies Invincible has, Ben 10 has them but multiplied by a million
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, Kevin has like 3 different backstories, they retconned his backstory more than three times.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Most writers are vibe-based more than anything, with consistency only being a thing that exists for the sake of the vibe. Homelander is stronger than Superman according to the show runner, because in his mind they occupy the same vibe of "World's strongest super-being" but Homelander has no morals:

His reasoning is non-sensical to (most) power scalers for example, but going from the writer's PoV the vibe seems correct. Homelander is an expy of Superman, if they were in the same story, he would indeed write their fight to go like that because Homelander is more ruthless as a person.

Mark and his crew lifting a city-sized spaceship is meant to be an awe-inspiring spectacle of strength, as if they fail millions of people are at risk of dying from the crash and explosions. They scream, put everything into it, and save the day. The vibe fits, it just makes every previous statement nonsensical since if Omniman can move meteors the size of Texas or shift planetary orbits, he should be able to stop the ship casually. Omniman struggles to kill a Bug, because it gives time for Oliver to show his dad that death isn't always the solution or option. Invincible gets clowned by random underground bugs because it allows the ReAnimen to be introduced, shown to be effective, and create a further rift between Mark and Cecil.

Ultimately, Invincible had a bunch of shifts in both purpose and tone. Originally, Kirkman wanted to make an early Image-style collaborative universe, but as time went on, he steadily started to dislike that idea and grew dissatisfied with the idea of his story being set in a never-ending universe. He'll randomly buff or nerf characters because that will fit the story better at the moment. I would like it to be more consistent, sure, but ultimately, most writers are just going off of whatever vibe works for the story. Omniman moving a planet isn't a strength feat necessarily; it's to show that he used to be someone capable of planetary genocide, but now hates that aspect of his history and is trying to make amends for it.

So when Kirkman writes that he hates power scalers, but also thinks Omniman beats Superman, those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive in my view. Kirkman's power scaling idea is that Twitter bros say Superman is Exaversal with Ludicrous FTL speed and can lift 8 biggatons. It's no longer taken as "the internal reference frame of a work's power structure" without clarification anymore imo.

Also, I've read works that are written by a power scaling like Shadversity's incredibly bad novel, Suggsverse works, and some really bad Xianxia novels. All of them are consistent in power scaling, but utterly cancerous to read because the important aspect (the narrative) gets shafted for cool explosions. Invincible being generally good story-wise with inconsistent power levels, is better than it having atomic precision power scaling with a bad narrative.
Click to expand...
I mean sure I make sure to write my fanfic scaling is logical but I care about the character arcs, plot more. I adjust the characters power to match the story I wanna tell

Like my Crossover versions being stronger then cannon because of the story I wanna tell
 
ReturnofKhadz said:
What fictional media would yall say is the best at this? Provided it’s not just a media with normal humans or street tier-types
Click to expand...
Dragon Ball is not the best but it is my favourite series that utilizes its power progression for its story, and stays mostly consistent with it even when characters grow far stronger than before and can bust planets. And don't bring up filler, tv specials, Super anime, Super manga, GT, z movies, Daima, games, Heroes, anything involving Kid Buu like at all
UhuQEp1.png
 
Alexander said:
Oh yeah, Kevin has like 3 different backstories, they retconned his backstory more than three times.
Click to expand...
More than three times? Werent it retconnected once lol, it's about Servantis how his story being a complete lie after all
 
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