[Genshin] The Traveler's Upgrade + Adding Class Z LS to the God-Tiers

[MSahla]

Introduction

Back again. This is basically the continuation of the previous CRT in attempt to upgrade the ratings from the current God-Tier characters slowly.

This time we are gonna include the Traveler. Both of these things should be straightforward hopefully.

---

Class Z God-Tiers

Now that Columbina's profile is here, and considering that she's one of the God-Tier characters in the verse and has Class Z Lifting Strength, we should give this LS to the other current God-Tier characters such as the Four Shades, the Five Sinners and the Seven Sovereigns.

NOTE:

Spoiler: Note

It should be noted that, in Genshin Impact's lore, these people (especially the Four Shades and the Five Sinners) CANNOT be lower or weaker than the Moon Goddesses, especially Columbina, as they are hierarchically equal or higher than Columbina, and have demonstrated an equal or even a greater feats than her. So all of them should automatically scale to Columbina without any further explanations needed.

Here's the lists of those people who should automatically scale to Columbina's Class Z LS.

Spoiler

• Istaroth
• Asmoday
• Naberius
• Ronova
• Rerir
• Surtalogi
• Rhinedottir
• Neuvillette
• Xiuhcoatl (Prime)
• Apep

Except Nibelung cause he already has Class Y LS, and no one so far scale to him except the Heavenly Principles, but we don't have their profile yet.

EDIT: UES Explanation
Because there are several things that are needed to provide strong evidence for this LS scaling to happen, and because UES is one of the options, I will explain it here.

Spoiler: Kuuvahki UES Explanations

There's an energy called Kuuvahki.
Kuuvahki itself came from the Three Moons' power. As a Moon / Trilune Goddess possessing all of the Three Moons' power, her main power is obviously Kuuvahki itself cause Kuuvahki is literally coming from herself. She can also fight with this power as shown here.

Kuuvahki being UES is should be obvious cause many people or things can use Kuuvahki, such as; the Moon Wheel users, monsters and plants, and even people utilize it for their daily life.

And then there's a Moon Marrow. The Moon Marrow is a divine artifact left behind in the aftermath of a Moon Goddess's death. As the remains of the Moon Goddesses, the Moon Marrows are a source of tremendous Kuuvahki Energy, and it's power can make someone even more powerful.
As shown here with Arlecchino after possessing the Iridescent Moon's Marrow.

I think these are enough to prove Kuuvahki is a UES.

Traveler's Stuff

Now you might wonder a little bit, but yes, we are giving the God-Tier ratings for The Traveler
(i.e AP = 5-B and LS = Class Z)

Here's why:

Spoiler: Traveler's Upgrade

At the end of the fight against Dottore in Nod-Krai Archon Quest, as we can see here in this cutscene:

the Traveler manage to onpar against False Moon God Dottore. This is the same Dottore, who in the same cutscene, manage to onpar with Trilune Goddess Columbina, which make him having the same rating as her via downscale.

But! Theres >>but.<< The Traveler can do all that stuff (i.e kept up with 3 Moon Marrows Dottore) only after he got blessed by Columbina with the New Moon's Blessing. Since before the Traveler got that blessing, he got no diffed by Dottore, or basically cannot onpar with him. The Traveler only can do that after Columbina's return and join the fight and later gave him a blessing. So this God-Tier ratings obviously would not be for the Traveler's base, his base were remains Archon level.

And so, i propose for the Traveler's new ratings will be something like this:

Spoiler

Tier (New Moon's Blessing)

Tier: High 8-C | 7-C | 7-B, at least 6-B with 99 Vision Buff | At least 6-B | At least 6-B | At least 6-B, higher with Nightsoul's Blessing, far higher after Skirk's training | At least 6-B, Low 5-B with the Eternal Moon's Marrow, >>5-B with the New Moon's Blessing<<

AP (Nod-Krai Chapter)

At least Country level (Same as before. Briefly fought against Dottore who had stolen the power of the Three Moons, although he was not yet at full power), Small Planet level with the Eternal Moon's Marrow (The Traveler held the Eternal Moon's Marrow within them for some time, supposedly just like Arlecchino, who is stronger than before after gaining the Iridescent Moon's Marrow. Fought against Phanton Form Rerir and managed to make him run away. Able to keep up with an unserious 10% Rerir for a while, but is eventually overwhelmed. The Traveler is able to fight and hold off 10% power of Rerir who is serious and wants to kill him.), >>Planet level with the New Moon's Blessing (The Traveler fought onpar against Heretic of the False Moon God Dottore upon being blessed with the New Moon's Blessing by Columbina.)<<

Speed

At least Relativistic (Same as before. Can react to Dottore's attacks), higher with the Eternal Moon's Marrow (Stronger than before upon possessing the Moon Marrow. Kept up against 10% Rerir who was just got resurrected, although ultimately got overwhelmed, and later shown dodging Rerir's beams. Hold off 10% Rerir who went all-out against the Traveler and Nefer), far higher with the New Moon's Blessing (Kept up False Moon God Dottore.)

Lifting Strength

Class K (same as before), Class T with the Eternal Moon's Marrow (Hold off 10% Rerir who went all-out), >>Class Z with the New Moon's Blessing (Fought onpar against Heretic of the False Moon God Dottore)<<

So yeah, that's just all about it for today. Until we meet again in the last part.

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Agree​	Random-Helper323 - Reiner04 (Shades + Traveler) - Planck69 (Traveler) - TWILIGHT-OP (Traveler) Furina003 - LoudestProcedure - InfiOthinus
Neutral​	Reiner04 (Five Sinners LS)
Disagree​	Planck69 (Four Shades & Sinners LS) - LephyrTheRevanchist (same as Planck) & TWILIGHT-OP (same as Planck)

 

[Random-Helper323]

This seems okay at a glance, but as I know nothing about this verse I'll wait for more input.

 

[Furina003]

quite simple, agree

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Seems fine I agree

 

[OmniScalator]

I don't think seven sovereigns qualify to be on par with columbina, and sinners probably maybe qualify

 

[MSahla]

I don't think seven sovereigns qualify to be on par with columbina,

They're not to be underestimated, when you have both thr Primal Flame and Primordial Sea water can give birth to a whole “new” universe consisted only of their respective element.

Primal Flame:

Primordial Sea:

But, at the end of the day, they're still the current God-Tiers of the verse. That's why i always underlined them. Wether they should be there or not is a topic for another CRT.

 

[Planck69]

Is there any particular reason they should scale to this level of lifting strength specifically. Being comparable to another character isn't enough on its own as lifting strength isn't automatically a factor there, especially given the feat seems to be performed telekinetically.

 

[MSahla]

Is there any particular reason they should scale to this level of lifting strength specifically. Being comparable to another character isn't enough on its own as lifting strength isn't automatically a factor there, especially given the feat seems to be performed telekinetically.

Basically this in OP:

It should be noted that, in Genshin Impact's lore, these people (especially the Four Shades and the Five Sinners) CANNOT be lower or weaker than the Moon Goddesses, especially Columbina, as they are hierarchically equal or higher than Columbina, and have demonstrated an equal or even a greater feats than her. So all of them should automatically scale to Columbina without any further explanations needed.

I'm not really saying that others are Comparable to Columbina, but they cannot be lower than her whatsoever. Instead, the story itself shows that they are stronger than her. Should i explain it more?

 

[Planck69]

Basically this in OP:

I'm not really saying that others are Comparable to Columbina, but they cannot be lower than her whatsoever. Instead, the story itself shows that they are stronger than her. Should i explain it more?

Yes, I saw that. I'm asking why lifting strength specifically should scale. I do not deny that they are as powerful as she is. But are they capable of replicating the feat? Can they overpower/break out her telekinetic hold or contend with it? Is power directly correlated with telekinetic prowess? Lifting strength isn't automatically scaled like other statistics so it needs more elaboration than that.

 

[MSahla]

But are they capable of replicating the feat? Can they overpower/break out her telekinetic hold or contend with it?

Hmm, let me see if i can prove it these specifically. Let me know your thoughts.

Four Shades

Spoiler

Asmoday - Istaroth - Ronova - Naberius
It is a common knowledge to us Genshin Impact Supporters that the Shades cannot be weaker/lower than the Moon Goddess.

In fact, the lore itself have proven that they are superior to that of Moon Sisters as a whole:

1. Nicole states that the Moon Goddesses are nowhere near the Heavenly Principles to challenge them. Meaning, the Heavenly Principles is obviously stronger then the Moon Sisters as a whole, including powers. The Shades' power are coming from the Heavenly Principles itself, because they are the projections of the Heavenly Principles itself, which mean their powers are the Heavenly Principles' powers. And as i said before, the Heavenly Principles' powers are stronger than the Moon Sisters.
2. The Four Shades as the rulers of the world have transcend the boundaries of humanity; which includes Life, Death, Time, and Space. Neither of the Moon Goddesses including Columbina can achieved this, and even Dottore after acquiring the power of the Three Moons still cannot achieved this feat, or even The Traveler themself as a Descender still can't. Meaning that the Four Shades' status and state of being are higher that those people.
3. The Four Shades' law governing are stated to be Universal, and even stated that their laws are the Laws of the Universe. While the Moon Goddesses, their scope of governing are merely planetary as they were created by Nibelung to govern the world in his stead. Which mean, they only govern the already-existing laws. While the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades created and defined a new laws that is superior to the old laws. From this, we can conclude that The Four Shades' law > Moon Sisters' law.
4. In the Hymns of the North, Prayer Song IV: Laimelea, Mother of Time. Even the followers of the three moon sisters, which is Hyperboreans, prays to Istaroth to protect their Moon Goddesses.

So yeah, it is OBVIOUS that the Shades are superior to that of Moon Goddesses.

This video shows the visual of how the Heavenly Principles destroys both Eternal Moon and the Iridescent Moon.

Five Sinners

Spoiler

This is the same as the Shades–we know that the Sinners cannot be weaker/lower than the Moon Goddesses as well.

We have Surtalogi, a literal universe-level threat himself and said by his student Skirk to be stronger than an entire world, as said here:

Her severed tendons and shattered bones were restored by the man known as "The Foul." But this was no cause for celebration.

For the man made her wield a blade every day and train until her limbs were ruined anew. It was as though he simply wanted her to feel pain.

Every day, after training, her broken body would be restored yet again.

She traveled across the universe with "The Foul," bearing witness to the trail of enemy graves he left in his wake.

A weapon forged using the pooled resources of an entire star system. A god manifested by the unity of a whole civilization's beliefs. The mightiest warrior among billions...

He buried them all. And as Skirk grew from the strength to strength, a revelation came upon her: Nobody had ever forced her master to use the true extent of his power.

If it was a wicked beast, he ate its flesh. If it was a god or a machine, he absorbed its energy.

If it was a warrior or mage, he played with his food — forcing them to use every trick in their book, then cutting them down once he tired of the charade.

To her master, this was what it meant to "devour."

Skirk's limbs were replaced with Abyssal phantasms. Never again would they hurt.

Her pain receptors, having been overloaded and utterly numbed over the long years, would never again fire a signal.

Her master, whose true name was Surtalogi, replied thusly.

"I may be the greatest calamity in the whole universe at this moment. Do you believe that?"

"There is no need to discuss my belief in the matter, Master. Those that once doubted are now but dust in the void."

"Hmph. Strength is what I have always pursued — the kind that lets one tear through every lie and manipulation."

"But... having come this far, I find myself struck by one worry..."

"...That I might someday get bored."

Skirk listened quietly. She couldn't fathom that the life of such a universe-shaking villain could be "boring."

"After seeking the strongest warriors the universe has to offer, there may no longer be any further strength for me to seek."

"How did that story go again? 'Distance is measured by the heart, and my heart is slightly larger than the universe.'"

"Once the whole universe becomes my front lawn, all I shall see from then on will be two anthills waging pint-sized war... I shall be in my prime then — and at my most weary."

Since the simners divided an abyssal power among them, they should be at least comparable to Surtalogi as of now.

"Master, since you mentioned that your group once divided enough Abyssal power amongst yourselves to overturn an entire world — or at least a sixth of it..."

"How is it that you are now many times stronger than an entire world, even when alone?"

"Did I save an idiot back then?"

"Listen well. When the fruit of a tree dies, its seeds are sown in the rotten soil. Naturally, these seeds may grow into stronger trees that bear harvests a hundred, or even a thousand times richer."

"Even if only one or two survivors escape a doomed world, their will alone can become strong enough to reforge the very world they lost."

With their parting imminent, Skirk no longer bothered to feign reverence or obedience.

So yeah, i think these are enough to put the Sinners are above the Moon Goddesses in term of raw power.

Is power directly correlated with telekinetic prowess? Lifting strength isn't automatically scaled like other statistics so it needs more elaboration than that.

So, based on explanations above, they could potentially bypass or negate such a hold rather than overpower it directly (nothing in the game shows so). So the comparison of their level of power is coming from the hierarchy of their authority (especially the shades), and raw power (especially the Sinners)

 

[Reiner04]

Seems fine. For LS, i am fine with Four shades sharing it but not sure about Five sinners.

 

[MSahla]

Seems fine. For LS, i am fine with Four shades sharing it but not sure about Five sinners.

Not sure? I thought it's pretty much blatant. Hmm, maybe this explanations about the Five Sinners might convince you.

Spoiler

This is the same as the Shades–we know that the Sinners cannot be weaker/lower than the Moon Goddesses as well.

We have Surtalogi, a literal universe-level threat himself and said by his student Skirk to be stronger than an entire world, as said here:

Her severed tendons and shattered bones were restored by the man known as "The Foul." But this was no cause for celebration.

For the man made her wield a blade every day and train until her limbs were ruined anew. It was as though he simply wanted her to feel pain.

Every day, after training, her broken body would be restored yet again.

She traveled across the universe with "The Foul," bearing witness to the trail of enemy graves he left in his wake.

A weapon forged using the pooled resources of an entire star system. A god manifested by the unity of a whole civilization's beliefs. The mightiest warrior among billions...

He buried them all. And as Skirk grew from the strength to strength, a revelation came upon her: Nobody had ever forced her master to use the true extent of his power.

If it was a wicked beast, he ate its flesh. If it was a god or a machine, he absorbed its energy.

If it was a warrior or mage, he played with his food — forcing them to use every trick in their book, then cutting them down once he tired of the charade.

To her master, this was what it meant to "devour."

Skirk's limbs were replaced with Abyssal phantasms. Never again would they hurt.

Her pain receptors, having been overloaded and utterly numbed over the long years, would never again fire a signal.

Her master, whose true name was Surtalogi, replied thusly.

"I may be the greatest calamity in the whole universe at this moment. Do you believe that?"

"There is no need to discuss my belief in the matter, Master. Those that once doubted are now but dust in the void."

"Hmph. Strength is what I have always pursued — the kind that lets one tear through every lie and manipulation."

"But... having come this far, I find myself struck by one worry..."

"...That I might someday get bored."

Skirk listened quietly. She couldn't fathom that the life of such a universe-shaking villain could be "boring."

"After seeking the strongest warriors the universe has to offer, there may no longer be any further strength for me to seek."

"How did that story go again? 'Distance is measured by the heart, and my heart is slightly larger than the universe.'"

"Once the whole universe becomes my front lawn, all I shall see from then on will be two anthills waging pint-sized war... I shall be in my prime then — and at my most weary."

Since the simners divided an abyssal power among them, they should be at least comparable to Surtalogi as of now.

"Master, since you mentioned that your group once divided enough Abyssal power amongst yourselves to overturn an entire world — or at least a sixth of it..."

"How is it that you are now many times stronger than an entire world, even when alone?"

"Did I save an idiot back then?"

"Listen well. When the fruit of a tree dies, its seeds are sown in the rotten soil. Naturally, these seeds may grow into stronger trees that bear harvests a hundred, or even a thousand times richer."

"Even if only one or two survivors escape a doomed world, their will alone can become strong enough to reforge the very world they lost."

With their parting imminent, Skirk no longer bothered to feign reverence or obedience.

So yeah, i think these are enough to put the Sinners are above the Moon Goddesses in term of raw power.

In short, entities like the Moon Goddesses should not be a problem to the Five Sinners ESPECIALLY Surtalogi who himself claim to be univese-shaking villain and no one can beat him in the universe. He did even beat a god. And later his student Skirk said that he's many times stronger than an entire world even when Alone.

 

[Planck69]

Hmm, let me see if i can prove it these specifically. Let me know your thoughts.

Four Shades

Spoiler

Asmoday - Istaroth - Ronova - Naberius
It is a common knowledge to us Genshin Impact Supporters that the Shades cannot be weaker/lower than the Moon Goddess.

In fact, the lore itself have proven that they are superior to that of Moon Sisters as a whole:

1. Nicole states that the Moon Goddesses are nowhere near the Heavenly Principles to challenge them. Meaning, the Heavenly Principles is obviously stronger then the Moon Sisters as a whole, including powers. The Shades' power are coming from the Heavenly Principles itself, because they are the projections of the Heavenly Principles itself, which mean their powers are the Heavenly Principles' powers. And as i said before, the Heavenly Principles' powers are stronger than the Moon Sisters.
2. The Four Shades as the rulers of the world have transcend the boundaries of humanity; which includes Life, Death, Time, and Space. Neither of the Moon Goddesses including Columbina can achieved this, and even Dottore after acquiring the power of the Three Moons still cannot achieved this feat, or even The Traveler themself as a Descender still can't. Meaning that the Four Shades' status and state of being are higher that those people.
3. The Four Shades' law governing are stated to be Universal, and even stated that their laws are the Laws of the Universe. While the Moon Goddesses, their scope of governing are merely planetary as they were created by Nibelung to govern the world in his stead. Which mean, they only govern the already-existing laws. While the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades created and defined a new laws that is superior to the old laws. From this, we can conclude that The Four Shades' law > Moon Sisters' law.
4. In the Hymns of the North, Prayer Song IV: Laimelea, Mother of Time. Even the followers of the three moon sisters, which is Hyperboreans, prays to Istaroth to protect their Moon Goddesses.

So yeah, it is OBVIOUS that the Shades are superior to that of Moon Goddesses.

This video shows the visual of how the Heavenly Principles destroys both Eternal Moon and the Iridescent Moon.

Five Sinners

Spoiler

This is the same as the Shades–we know that the Sinners cannot be weaker/lower than the Moon Goddesses as well.

We have Surtalogi, a literal universe-level threat himself and said by his student Skirk to be stronger than an entire world, as said here:



Since the simners divided an abyssal power among them, they should be at least comparable to Surtalogi as of now.


So yeah, i think these are enough to put the Sinners are above the Moon Goddesses in term of raw power.

So, based on explanations above, they could potentially bypass or negate such a hold rather than overpower it directly (nothing in the game shows so). So the comparison of their level of power is coming from the hierarchy of their authority (especially the shades), and raw power (especially the Sinners)

If this is all then I am not seeing how any of this is scaling lifting strength. My issue isn't the scaling, I quite agree with it. But like I said, raw power =/= lifting strength, unless this is established in-universe, especially with lifting strength feats.

 

[Furina003]

If this is all then I am not seeing how any of this is scaling lifting strength. My issue isn't the scaling, I quite agree with it. But like I said, raw power =/= lifting strength, unless this is established in-universe, especially with lifting strength feats.

Can UES work on lifting Strength??, basically columbina not only uses telekinesis, but also uses lunar energy to do.

so, where this kuhvaki is one of the primordial elementals of genshin, which is ues in this verse

 

[MSahla]

But like I said, raw power =/= lifting strength, unless this is established in-universe, especially with lifting strength feats.

Well.. How do i put this. Since the Four Shades/Five Sinners scale above or comparable in authority, and Genshin consistently shows higher beings exerting greater control over physical phenomena, their force output should logically scale as well.

Take this cutscene for example where another telekinesis feat of Columbina lifting Rerir in the air and create the moon gate:

When Rerir is tied up using telekinesis, it depends on how much power she gets. You could watch the entire video from the beginning to know the context. But, essentially, Columbina can do all that depends on how much power she has.

 

[Planck69]

Can UES work on lifting Strength??, basically columbina not only uses telekinesis, but also uses lunar energy to do.

so, where this kuhvaki is one of the primordial elementals of genshin, which is ues in this verse

It potentially can but it needs to be properly established as a function of that Universal Energy System. Merely having a system doesn't automatically scale one's lifting strength feats to the amount of power one has.

Well.. How do i put this. Since the Four Shades/Five Sinners scale above or comparable in authority, and Genshin consistently shows higher beings exerting greater control over physical phenomena, their force output should logically scale as well.

Take this cutscene for example where another telekinesis feat of Columbina lifting Rerir in the air and create the moon gate:

When Rerir is tied up using telekinesis, it depends on how much power she gets. You could watch the entire video from the beginning to know the context. But, essentially, Columbina can do all that depends on how much power she has.

This ties into what I said above. Columbina's showcase is fine for herself, obviously but you would need to already establish what I said for it to scale to others i.e. the amount of the setting's energy you have is directly proportional to one's lifting strength, even more so here because it is not a physical lifting strength feat.

 

[MSahla]

It potentially can but it needs to be properly established as a function of that Universal Energy System. Merely having a system doesn't automatically scale one's lifting strength feats to the amount of power one has.

This ties into what I said above. Columbina's showcase is fine for herself, obviously but you would need to already establish what I said for it to scale to others i.e. the amount of the setting's energy you have is directly proportional to one's lifting strength, even more so here because it is not a physical lifting strength feat.

Hmm, what about UES? You said it potentially can, so... Maybe if I explain UES, it might make more sense.

 

[Planck69]

Hmm, what about UES? You said it potentially can, so... Maybe if I explain UES, it might make more sense.

You would also have to change the verse's UES to accommodate this and get that accepted though, which is a whole other thing though and might make the thread meander.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

ok but i just dont see why traveler would downscale to 10% rerir and this not going to archons and co because traveler genuenly isnt above archon lvl, but like i disagree with entire downscaling in first place since its explicitly noted so many times that rerir would beat anyone who comes at him anyway + the statement where he can solo ALL of nod krai

 

[MSahla]

ok but i just dont see why traveler would downscale to 10% rerir and this not going to archons and co because traveler genuenly isnt above archon lvl, but like i disagree with entire downscaling in first place since its explicitly noted so many times that rerir would beat anyone who comes at him anyway + the statement where he can solo ALL of nod krai

I mean the fact that the traveler did not get oneshotted and manage to hold off 10% Rerir who went all-out and seriously wants to kill Nefer and Traveler already proves the downscale.

 

[Furina003]

It potentially can but it needs to be properly established as a function of that Universal Energy System. Merely having a system doesn't automatically scale one's lifting strength feats to the amount of power one has.

Basically, in terms of hierarchy, the Shades are above the Moon Goddesses, which should be a benchmark for their superiority.

The Moon Children even implore Istaroth (one of the shades) to protect the four Moon Goddesses.

You who in the moment of your birth, also gave birth to yourself, O supreme mother,
You are the one stillness within the endless flow, the one outsider in the sacred courtyard of the gods.
May you protect the four imprisoned moons. May you protect the four imprisoned moons.
You are the one outsider in the sacred courtyard of the gods, the one stillness within the endless flow.

Does it really need an explicit statement that the Shades and Sinners possess greater lifting strength than moon goddes? Even though the Shades are supposed to be stronger in raw power?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I mean the fact that the traveler did not get oneshotted and manage to hold off 10% Rerir who went all-out and seriously wants to kill Nefer and Traveler already proves the downscale.

It does not because if we look at the cutscene they were dodging the attacks because they would otherwise die, i mean if this is downscale why isnt inazuma traveler 6-B from not getting killed by shogun in both fights pre vision amp

 

[MSahla]

It does not because if we look at the cutscene they were dodging the attacks because they would otherwise die, i mean if this is downscale why isnt inazuma traveler 6-B from not getting killed by shogun in both fights pre vision amp

?? Why are u even looking at that cutscene only? You have the whole cutscene where Nefer and Traveler only in the party fighting Rerir. That's also canon in the story, which implies both of them fighting together against him.

 

[MSahla]

Basically, in terms of hierarchy, the Shades are above the Moon Goddesses, which should be a benchmark for their superiority.

The Moon Children even implore Istaroth (one of the shades) to protect the four Moon Goddesses.

Does it really need an explicit statement that the Shades and Sinners possess greater lifting strength than moon goddes? Even though the Shades are supposed to be stronger in raw power?

Yeah like.. Isn't the powerscaling standard basically saying "A Stronger than B who can lift Car, therefore A can also lift car"

 

[PedjaTarzan]

?? Why are u even looking at that cutscene only? You have the whole cutscene where Nefer and Traveler only in the party fighting Rerir. That's also canon in the story, which implies both of them fighting together against him.

Because cutscene is obviously more reliable than gameplay, if we saw them clashing too it would be easier to take gameplay as argument
Instead its just them avoiding his attacks at all costs

 

[MSahla]

Because cutscene is obviously more reliable than gameplay, if we saw them clashing too it would be easier to take gameplay as argument
Instead its just them avoiding his attacks at all costs

How is it not reliable when you have their dialogues while fighting? Lol

 

[MSahla]

You would also have to change the verse's UES to accommodate this and get that accepted though, which is a whole other thing though and might make the thread meander.

Well then, should i put the UES thing in OP so it can be reasonable why?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

How is it not reliable when you have their dialogues while fighting? Lol

do the dialogues imply they are tanking/clashing attacks? i dont see that here

 

[MSahla]

do the dialogues imply they are tanking/clashing attacks? i dont see that here

Yeah? The fact that they still not getting one-shotted is more than enough. As Varka said, both of them should fight him and hold until he went all-out. That's your problem to prove that they're just dodging and running around instead of fighting him directly, because theres no reason to assume they were like that in the first place.

 

[Planck69]

Basically, in terms of hierarchy, the Shades are above the Moon Goddesses, which should be a benchmark for their superiority.

The Moon Children even implore Istaroth (one of the shades) to protect the four Moon Goddesses.

Does it really need an explicit statement that the Shades and Sinners possess greater lifting strength than moon goddes? Even though the Shades are supposed to be stronger in raw power?

Yeah like.. Isn't the powerscaling standard basically saying "A Stronger than B who can lift Car, therefore A can also lift car"

Yes, because lifting strength does not automatically scale with attack potency. It doesn't need to be an exact statement necessarily but just a feat (physically overpowering the telekinesis) or some surrounding context (like them also having telekinesis and it being shown to scale to their power for example). Basically something that shows they can either replicate the feat or overpower physical leverage on the level of said feat.

Basic scaling only really works if she physically pushed the moon and all of these people were shown to be physically stronger than her. UES can also work but it needs more than just being stronger and also using the same magic.

 

[MSahla]

UES can also work but it needs more than just being stronger and also using the same magic.

I have updated the OP and added UES Explanations

And i should also mention that, there are several of UES in the verse:

1. Elemental Energy (Accepted)
2. Kuuvahki Energy (?)
3. Abyssal Energy (Accepted)

What we're talking about now is the second one.

 

[Reiner04]

Not sure? I thought it's pretty much blatant. Hmm, maybe this explanations about the Five Sinners might convince you.

For four shades, this particular statement is what convinced me regarding extending the physicality of the Moon goddess to the four shades:

Nicole states that the Moon Goddesses are nowhere near the Heavenly Principles to challenge them.

This is enough implication in my view to suggest that Moon goddesses atleast physically, aren't comparable to Four shades in any way possible.

For five shinners, the statements seems to be mostly referring to only AP difference than overall physicality.

 

[MSahla]

For four shades, this particular statement is what convinced me regarding extending the physicality of the Moon goddess to the four shades:

This is enough implication in my view to suggest that Moon goddesses atleast physically, aren't comparable to Four shades in any way possible.

For five shinners, the statements seems to be mostly referring to only AP difference than overall physicality.

Aight then. But btw, i have updated the OP and explain about Kuuvahki being UES. Can you evaluate on that?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Yeah? The fact that they still not getting one-shotted is more than enough. As Varka said, both of them should fight him and hold until he went all-out. That's your problem to prove that they're just dodging and running around instead of fighting him directly, because theres no reason to assume they were like that in the first place.

Then quote what statement implied that, also if u admit they had to hold him off till he went all out then you are admitting he wasnt hitting them with his full low 5-B force thus they cant even downscale if he never used his serious power against them .
just saying theres much more statements that prove they cant scale to his tier than they can, and plus you are just giving this to traveler when u know damn well this has to affect majority of other characters such as archons but you do you bro

 

[Planck69]

I have updated the OP and added UES Explanations

And i should also mention that, there are several of UES in the verse:

1. Elemental Energy (Accepted)
2. Kuuvahki Energy (?)
3. Abyssal Energy (Accepted)

What we're talking about now is the second one.

You have to establish why this UES would scale to one's physical lifting strength. Just having a UES doesn't scale LS by default was the point I was making, especially for a non-physical feat. And even then;

To qualify for a Universal Energy System, you need to not only prove that a proportional amount of said energy scales with one's physical attributes but also qualify for limited and non-physical energy system requirements, which have all attacks scale to each other in potency and drawing from the same source of power. The OP's quotes at most prove a non-physical energy system, since there's no direct evidence of having more kuuvahki meaning one's physical attributes are enhanced.

 

[MSahla]

Then quote what statement implied that,

I don't need that? Cause there's already that cutscene i have already provided. Instead, you should prove your claim that they didn't fight him directly and just dodging and running around. You still haven't prove anything.

You're nothing but Argument of Incredulity.

also if u admit they had to hold him off till he went all out then you are admitting he wasnt hitting them with his full low 5-B force thus they cant even downscale if he never used his serious power against them .

He did used his full power after he BFR-ed Lauma and Flins. The moment when Nefer and Traveler's only in the party, is the moment he went all-out.

The battle reaches its climax. You and Nefer goad Rerir into using his true destructive powers. This is a risky play, but it is precisely what is needed. There is no way you can gain the advantage by strength alone. As such, you must induce him to unleash his full power and then use that power against him, such that the threat he poses can be resolved.
An expertly hidden alchemical array is quietly activated, completely siphoning the power that Rerir has used.

just saying theres much more statements that prove they cant scale to his tier than they can, and plus you are just giving this to traveler when u know damn well this has to affect majority of other characters such as archons but you do you bro

I mean, the Traveler can fight against full power 10% Rerir only after he got the Eternal Moon's Marrow, which we know the thing that makes someone even more powerful, just like Arlecchino's case. His base was already Archon level, and plus he got the Moon Marrow which greatly enhanced his overall strength.

 

[MSahla]

You have to establish why this UES would scale to one's physical lifting strength. Just having a UES doesn't scale LS by default was the point I was making, especially for a non-physical feat. And even then;

But i already did tho?

[Genshin] The Traveler's Upgrade + Adding Class Z LS to the God-Tiers

Introduction 👋 Back again. This is basically the continuation of the previous CRT in attempt to upgrade the ratings from the current God-Tier characters slowly. This time we are gonna include the Traveler. Both of these things should be straightforward hopefully. Class Z God-Tiers Now that...

vsbattles.com

The OP's quotes at most prove a non-physical energy system, since there's no direct evidence of having more kuuvahki meaning one's physical attributes are enhanced.

But i already gave this exact scene? Which is the proof that Kuuvahki can make someone stronger.

And there's this scene:

Columbina was weakened at the moment, and in that scene Arlecchino and Traveler gave the power of Moon Marrow/Kuuvahki to Columbina and Columbina's strength is getting stronger. You could watch from that exact moment for like 2 minutes to see their conversations.

 

[InfiOthinus]

I agree.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I don't need that? Cause there's already that cutscene i have already provided. Instead, you should prove your claim that they didn't fight him directly and just dodging and running around. You still haven't prove anything.

You're nothing but Argument of Incredulity.

He did used his full power after he BFR-ed Lauma and Flins. The moment when Nefer and Traveler's only in the party, is the moment he went all-out.

No brother the context was that they were taunting rerir to use his full power, the moment he used full power we see durin stealing his power giving it to columbina and then fighting him till he got sent into moon gate, he was never going all out before that moment

I mean, the Traveler can fight against full power 10% Rerir only after he got the Eternal Moon's Marrow, which we know the thing that makes someone even more powerful, just like Arlecchino's case. His base was already Archon level, and plus he got the Moon Marrow which greatly enhanced his overall strength.

Okay so can you exactly quantify how powerful they got because for your information, no they were not fully archon level in no point of storyline because most of the comparasion to archons they ever got is some wacky event where traveler fought chiyo nightmare instead of ei and keeping up with mavuika who carried whole fight anyway against gosoytoth, even against skonfungr he wasnt main contributor when skirk actually carried him instead . im spiritually disagreeing with traveler getting upgrade without anyone else getting the same upgrade and i also spiritually disagree with scaling anyone to 10% rerir when they all get belt to ass anyway. i wont comment further ngl

 

[Planck69]

But i already did tho?

[Genshin] The Traveler's Upgrade + Adding Class Z LS to the God-Tiers

Introduction 👋 Back again. This is basically the continuation of the previous CRT in attempt to upgrade the ratings from the current God-Tier characters slowly. This time we are gonna include the Traveler. Both of these things should be straightforward hopefully. Class Z God-Tiers Now that...

vsbattles.com

But i already gave this exact scene? Which is the proof that Kuuvahki can make someone stronger.

What the UES page wants would be something like "I have more kuuvahki, so I can punch you harder" or something equally as direct. Being more powerful generally and just using energy/non-physical attacks (like the quoted videos) isn't enough for that.

And even after proving that you would also need something like, "My ability to lift X is cause of kuuvahki", but at least this requirement seems satisfied.

And there's this scene:

Columbina was weakened at the moment, and in that scene Arlecchino and Traveler gave the power of Moon Marrow/Kuuvahki to Columbina and Columbina's strength is getting stronger. You could watch from that exact moment for like 2 minutes.

I feel like there's a miscommunication here. I do not deny that having more kuuvahki makes you more powerful, that's why I even acknowledged non-physical energy system for it at all. What I am asking for is proof that having more kuuvahki directly scales to physicality. Either that or the other characters would need proof of having telekinesis and would scale via that.