Multiple selves in Tier 0?

[WarmestProduct]

To make it clear here is that the Tier 0 existence isn't having multiple conciousness/identity/mind in logic of plurality distinction (A, B, C, ...), but in the form of "already in one" (X(A), X(B), X(C), ..., where X is the existence itself). Basically, it would not going out like this is a hive mind because hive mind is made out of parts logically, but since the Tier 0 is already have one in the first place, but their thoughts and minds are decentralized without being an entirely independant beings.

 

[FinePoint]

From the Omnipotence page:

Bluntly speaking, there cannot be multiple Tier 0 beings. Since it transcends all qualitative multiplicity, then it is obvious that there cannot be any plurality of things standing side-by-side with it, them being reciprocally differentiated by something that one has, and the other does not. Since, in general, the indefinite article "a" (e.g. "a" being, "an" essence, "an" entity, and so on and so forth) is not properly applicable to it, so as to contain it in a formal category, then there cannot be many of its kind, for the simple reason that it is not included in any such "kind" to begin with.

However, there may be distinctions within Tier 0 provided that such distinctions don't introduce a plurality of beings or essences (or whatever other category) existing coordinately and in self-exclusion from one another, as when multiple characters are one and the same Absolute (Though there might be other ways to negate such coordination).

The Tier 0 itself cannot be multiple anything, but for all intents and purposes of 'lower beings' observing its 'influence': its avatars/manifestations may in some moment appear to have one personality and in another moment appear to have another.

 

[WarmestProduct]

From the Omnipotence page:

The Tier 0 itself cannot be multiple anything, but for all intents and purposes of 'lower beings' observing its 'influence': its avatars/manifestations may in some moment appear to have one personality and in another moment appear to have another.

Like I said, there cannot be entity A and B and multiple of that as Tier 0 at the same time, but all of that multiplications can be one as X, which cane out as X(A) and X(B), also known as sub-Xs, which they are not completely independant beings from X itself, and X itself is the only Tier 0 existence.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I imagine it could be the case of the Presence, The Source and the Overmind were the three look different but are in ultimately the Same Tier 0 dude

 

[FinePoint]

Like I said, there cannot be entity A and B and multiple of that as Tier 0 at the same time, but all of that multiplications can be one as X, which cane out as X(A) and X(B), also known as sub-Xs, which they are not completely distincted beings, and X itself is the only Tier 0 existence.

Then in short, yes.

We've had multiple cases of 'different' characters being the same Tier 0 in reality.

 

[WarmestProduct]

Then in short, yes.

We've had multiple cases of 'different' characters being the same Tier 0 in reality.

Ok? The thing is that only sub-Xs can exists multiplely at the same time, but the real X is still the only one exist as the highest plane of existence. Sub-Xs are not completely independant from X at all.

 

[Vesxpura]

hive mind because hive mind is made out of parts logically

idk what you mean by this because tier 0 can also have parts.

also yes, a tier 0 can have that, it just wouldnt be genuine multiplicity.

 

[WarmestProduct]

idk what you mean by this because tier 0 can also have parts.

also yes, a tier 0 can have that, it just wouldnt be genuine multiplicity.

You mean that Tier 0 can have parts but they are not suppose to completely independant from each other?

 

[Vesxpura]

You mean that Tier 0 can have parts but they are not suppose to completely independant from each other?

the second section was answering ur question. which is why i seperated it from what u said its not replying to the parts thing

 

[WarmestProduct]

the second section was answering ur question. which is why i seperated it from what u said its not replying to the parts thing

I just want to understand what do you mean by that?

 

[SuperNova55555]

idk what you mean by this because tier 0 can also have parts.

 

[Vesxpura]

go back to glazing shin bru

 

[SuperNova55555]

go back to glazing shin bru

Hey. Shin is my pookiebear so it’s deserved.

 

[Vesxpura]

Hey. Shin is my pookiebear so it’s deserved.

i never said it wasent deserved just that you should go back to it

 

[SuperNova55555]

What do you even mean by Tier 0 has parts anyways

 

[Vesxpura]

What do you even mean by Tier 0 has parts anyways

since like t0 on ts wiki is like at minimum divine simplicity. if u have improper parts its basically just the same thing tbh

 

[SuperNova55555]

since like t0 on ts wiki is like at minimum divine simplicity. if u have improper parts its basically just the same thing tbh

Clarify improper parts

 

[Vesxpura]

Clarify improper parts

where a part is just the whole, im going by the mereological qualifications of part

 

[SuperNova55555]

where a part is just the whole, im going by the mereological qualifications of part

I guess bro. But saying it has some unqualified type of “parts” is just misleading then

 

[WarmestProduct]

I guess bro. But saying it has some unqualified type of “parts” is just misleading then

I actually mentioned how the "parts" would actually work, tho. Instead of independant A, B, C, etc, we get something like X(A), X(B), X(C), etc, while X itself is the unified existence, and those "parts" are just sub-existences to represent how beyond vastness the Tier 0 existence itself.

 

[FinePoint]

A Tier 0 can 'have' parts in that by being all of reality they're also each individual thing 'part' of reality.

So, in some sense it's perfectly logical to say that John Smith is 'a part' of the Tier 0.

 

[WarmestProduct]

A Tier 0 can 'have' parts in that by being all of reality they're also each individual thing 'part' of reality.

So, in some sense it's perfectly logical to say that John Smith is 'a part' of the Tier 0.

It still doesn't seem to clearly explain the idea there are multiple of Tier 0 "parts" that all exists in one place and interact to each other like they are different people despite they all directly came from one source and they're all having an equal amount of abilities, which neither of them are stronger than others.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It still doesn't seem to clearly explain the idea there are multiple of Tier 0 "parts" that all exists in one place and interact to each other like they are different people despite they all directly came from one source and they're all having an equal amount of abilities, which neither of them are stronger than others.

When approaching a Tier 0 via negativa (apophaticism), the claim that “T0 is Omnipotent”, or otherwise maximally strong, is another way to claim “T0 is powerful but not in any way we can conceive of”. For the maximum of all things, is when all things are numerically identical to each other.

I.e Wisdom and Power are the same thing in T0, but they are only fragmented, or “differentiated” by approaching T0 discursively. Since in truth, Power is Being, and Wisdom is also Being. For if Being did not include those, it would be empty, or indistinguishable from nothingness.

 

[Vesxpura]

A Tier 0 can 'have' parts in that by being all of reality they're also each individual thing 'part' of reality.

So, in some sense it's perfectly logical to say that John Smith is 'a part' of the Tier 0.

idk bro, depends on ur definitions since what u said is lwk vague. if ur not careful it might js devolve into pantheism which i dont think t0 agrees with

 

[WarmestProduct]

When approaching a Tier 0 via negativa (apophaticism), the claim that “T0 is Omnipotent”, or otherwise maximally strong, is another way to claim “T0 is powerful but not in any way we can conceive of”. For the maximum of all things, is when all things are numerically identical to each other.

I.e Wisdom and Power are the same thing in T0, but they are only fragmented, or “differentiated” by approaching T0 discursively. Since in truth, Power is Being, and Wisdom is also Being. For if Being did not include those, it would be empty, or indistinguishable from nothingness.

I still don't even understand what does this mean? I think you might missed my point at some sort?

 

[SuperNova55555]

I still don't even understand what does this mean? I think you might missed my point at some sort?

All the “parts” of a Tier 0 are the identical thing (literally A=A). But they only appear different because a human has limited intellectual capabilities

 

[Vesxpura]

All the “parts” of a Tier 0 are the identical thing (literally A=A). But they only appear different because a human has limited intellectual capabilities

why were u jargoning against some chill guy vro

 

[SuperNova55555]

why were u jargoning against some chill guy vro

Honestly I was trying to explain it as simple as I can but now that I re-read, “discursively” is prolly a pretty loaded term icl

 

[WarmestProduct]

All the “parts” of a Tier 0 are the identical thing (literally A=A). But they only appear different because a human has limited intellectual capabilities

Actually I would think something more like a bunch of minds that are not distinguishable visually or materially, but only through subjective identifications and wills, and all these minds are all having the same atack potency levels, which means that physical conflicts would become meaningless as obvious.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Actually I would think something more like a bunch of minds that are not distinguishable visually or materially, but only through subjective identifications and wills, and all these minds are all having the same atack potency levels, which means that physical conflicts would become meaningless as obvious.

Nah, cuz that’s internal/epistemic division which isn’t possible in T0.

 

[WarmestProduct]

Nah, cuz that’s internal/epistemic division which isn’t possible in T0.

Why not possible? Isn't Tier 0 suppose to hold all concepts?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Why not possible? Isn't Tier 0 suppose to hold all concepts?

It holds them in the sense that they are all completely identical to each other. In T0, Power is Wisdom. They’re not separate things, or form a whole, they’re literally just the same thing. Power is A and Wisdom is A, and we know A=A.

But alternate subjective experiences are intrinsically differentiated from each other, which is incoherent.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Basically the subjective is simply how a mind is trying to to differentiate itself from each other minds, despite all of them are already in one existence. How can wisdom and power is the same when power is more about damage attack while wisdom is only about thoughts?

Because that’s only true when they are fragmented or have determinate division. They are the same thing in T0, and because you cannot reconcile that, T0 becomes “ineffable”.

 

[WarmestProduct]

It holds them in the sense that they are all completely identical to each other. In T0, Power is Wisdom. They’re not separate things, or form a whole, they’re literally just the same thing. Power is A and Wisdom is A, and we know A=A.

But alternate subjective experiences are intrinsically differentiated from each other, which is incoherent.

If power is wisdom then all the minds have the same level of wisdom, too. For the subjective experiences, it just how each mind trying to identify themself despite they all exist in one singular material existence.

 

[SuperNova55555]

If power is wisdom then all the minds have the same level of wisdom, too. For the subjective experiences, it just how each mind trying to identify themself despite they all exist in one singular material existence.

No, that’s again… division. T0 has no discursive thought at all. Nor can it even be properly called “subjective”, because all it thinks is what it literally is.

 

[WarmestProduct]

Because that’s only true when they are fragmented or have determinate division. They are the same thing in T0, and because you cannot reconcile that, T0 becomes “ineffable”.

I also have to make a custom tier for this kind of existence since Tier 1-A+ is not enough and Tier 0 quite doubtful, so it must be a tier between these two.

 

[Iiliminal]

is this about the pillars lol

 

[WarmestProduct]

No, that’s again… division. T0 has no discursive thought at all. Nor can it even be properly called “subjective”, because all it thinks is what it literally is.

How to you even think about discursive thoughts? I'm talking how this tier 0 would work as a decentralized mind.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It still doesn't seem to clearly explain the idea there are multiple of Tier 0 "parts" that all exists in one place and interact to each other like they are different people despite they all directly came from one source and they're all having an equal amount of abilities, which neither of them are stronger than others.

Tier 0 with different "Faces" of the same overarching concept have to show evidence of Homoousios, that are of "The same substance" which is the Divine Godhead. If they're separate personalities without Homoousios then the entity isn't Tier 0, as there's no Monad/uniformity presented within it.

 

[TheTenno07]

Basically yes, a while ago Ultima made a tier 0 profile of god of the divine comedy (Obviously, it couldn't be added to the wiki since it was an exact copy of the Christian God) But this character is one being (meaning one essence/nature/substance), with one mind, one will and one set of operation, but this one being exists simultaneously as 3 distinct persons, each one with their own consciencess (referring to self-awareness). There is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The formal formulation (which I stole from the internet) would be like this: G(F) ∧ G(S) ∧ G(H) ∧ (F ≠ S) ∧ (F ≠ H) ∧ (S ≠ H) ∧ ∃!x G(x)