Ordem Paranormal Verse Specific Power + Layers addition

[Redite250]

This Content Revision aims to add the following page, which will then be added as a power for every single profile. The Creature Physiology will be added only to creatures, and Will and Fortitude apply to every single characters in different levels, which would be their Will/Fortitude value.

To explain in simple terms, Ordem Paranormal is an RPG, and the combat is usually resolved with saving throws. Some enemies or players have abilities that require saving throws. There are three main saving throw skills, Reflexes (essentially if you succeed a Reflexes throw you just dodge the attack), Fortitude and Will. Fortitude and Will are the interesting ones. The higher the value, the stronger will be the effects you can resist. A regular person has 0 in both stats, usually. Which means that, if you remove randomness from the equation with additional rules from the rulebook, they can only resist effects up to a DT of 10 (A DT is the value you must reach to resist the effect, by throwing dice and then adding the saving throw skill. If you roll for example a 10, and have +5 will, you will pass an effect with a DT of 15, but fail in a DT 16). This essentially means that every single point above 1 in Fortitude or Will allows you to resist a power a singular level higher. The strongest effect in the Rulebook has a DT of 45, which would require a +35 in will or fortitude to resist, meaning 35 layers. Altough players can have a DT that far surpasses this for their own rituals with some insane combos. If this gets accepted, every single character will gain resistance to effects with layers equals to their value in fortitude or will + any modifiers from powers and abilities that can give boosts in saving throws, and all characters that have abilities that can be resisted will have those resistances become layered equal to the DT minus 10.


I believe the creature phisiology page is self explanatory.
In Ordem Paranormal, Fear of a certain concept creates a mold, and entities from the Other Side can use this mold to cross into reality, breaking reality's rules.
This gives them some abilities such as an Abstract Existence and, most important, Disturbing Presence. Ordem Paranormal is a horror universe so looking at a creature can break your mind in many different ways, and the disturbing presence part of the page has every single crazy effect that can happen when a character's sanity reaches zero. These effects range from feeling a bit sick to straight up just dying on the spot.

Lastly, the "Marked" category is a sort of meta tool that applies to players. See, in the world of Ordem Paranormal, everything is controlled by the chains of reality, that means every NPC and every creature, every event that happens, they're kind of like the gamemaster! And the Marked, the players, are beyond that control. In universe, the Marks are entities that create their own figures in reality, and give them freedom from fate, which is why all Marked are free from fate and cannot be controlled by it.

The Page in Question

 

[Nonynho]

As i have helped a bit in this, i obviously agree

Have ya posted in the CRTs Promotion thread? if not, i can do it

 

[Redite250]

As i have helped a bit in this, i obviously agree

Have ya posted in the CRTs Promotion thread? if not, i can do it

I have not, you should do it

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

This looks good at a glance but y'all should contact supporters or staff atp

 

[Nonynho]

This looks good at a glance but y'all should contact supporters or staff atp

We are the supporters and i think i have already went into all mods' walls, maybe more than half of our admins too lol

 

[AyOgUyS]

We are the supporters and i think i have already went into all mods' walls, maybe more than half of our admins too lol

Try promoting this thread in that one CRT Promotion thread

 

[Nonynho]

Try promoting this thread in that one CRT Promotion thread

yep, did that too

 

[Dalesean027]

To explain in simple terms, Ordem Paranormal is an RPG, and the combat is usually resolved with saving throws. Some enemies or players have abilities that require saving throws. There are three main saving throw skills, Reflexes (essentially if you succeed a Reflexes throw you just dodge the attack), Fortitude and Will. Fortitude and Will are the interesting ones. The higher the value, the stronger will be the effects you can resist. A regular person has 0 in both stats, usually. Which means that, if you remove randomness from the equation with additional rules from the rulebook, they can only resist effects up to a DT of 10 (A DT is the value you must reach to resist the effect, by throwing dice and then adding the saving throw skill. If you roll for example a 10, and have +5 will, you will pass an effect with a DT of 15, but fail in a DT 16). This essentially means that every single point above 1 in Fortitude or Will allows you to resist a power a singular level higher. The strongest effect in the Rulebook has a DT of 45, which would require a +35 in will or fortitude to resist, meaning 35 layers. Altough players can have a DT that far surpasses this for their own rituals with some insane combos. If this gets accepted, every single character will gain resistance to effects with layers equals to their value in fortitude or will + any modifiers from powers and abilities that can give boosts in saving throws, and all characters that have abilities that can be resisted will have those resistances become layered equal to the DT minus 10.

I don't know that we've ever had the precedent to treat something like this as a layer so I'm pretty iffy on doing so, count me as neutral here until more staff weigh in

The Page in Question

Immortality (Types 1 and 2) (Creatures do not age and can survive attacks that would almost certainly kill a human being, though they will die if they take too much damage)
Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2 and 3) (Creatures don't need to eat or sleep)

Scans for these, pls

Mind Manipulation: (With few exceptions, creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others. Essentially this means that rituals such as Perturbation and Mind Control don't work on creatures, even if the caster is severely more powerful than the creature

The scan used in this part only says that creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others which is fine but that alone doesn't support the latter half of what you're saying in the justification so do you have the scans for the rest to justify why this would actually relate to mind manip specifcally.



The rest seems fine

 

[Nonynho]

I don't know that we've ever had the precedent to treat something like this as a layer so I'm pretty iffy on doing so, count me as neutral here until more staff weigh in

sure

The scan used in this part only says that creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others which is fine but that alone doesn't support the latter half of what you're saying in the justification so do you have the scans for the rest to justify why this would actually relate to mind manip specifcally.

The rituals mentioned are literally mind control and commanding. Perturbation is a ritual that can command one into making an action like dropping what's in hand, laying down and etc, and Mind Control has a symbol in the caster and one in the commanded figure to make the latter obey literally all orders save from suicidal ones. The first ritual is of the first circle and the other is of the 4th, the weakest and strongest ones. And the main part is that:

This is the page 180 of the rulebook, speaking about creatures' abilities. i know there is a f* ton of text here, but what's important is the circle which literally says "it's IMPOSSIBLE to command creatures from the other side"

The other asked scans i can't pull up atm because i can't properly remember where to find those informations

 

[Dalesean027]

but what's important is the circle which literally says "it's IMPOSSIBLE to command creatures from the other side"

That's the least important thing to have listed by itseld, you kinda need all the other evidence otherwise its a nothingburger itself

I'd say get the TLs for this page done so that you have can the rest for evidence

 

[Nonynho]

That's the least important thing to have listed by itseld, you kinda need all the other evidence otherwise its a nothingburger itself

I'd say get the TLs for this page done so that you have can the rest for evidence

do we have TLHs for portuguese?

 

[Dalesean027]

do we have TLHs for portuguese?

Not sure tbh but it wouldn't hurt to ask

 

[Nonynho]

Not sure tbh but it wouldn't hurt to ask

i mean, not to be too insistent but i feel like asking that is important

besides the rulebook, when talking about creatures' sheets and its characteristics, going out of its way to say very clearly it is not possible to command creatures, the only mind manip available for the verse and obviously mind manip... what more is needed?

edit: if needed, this book goes out of its way to not speak with nuance or anything alike that would impede MTL to be at least 98% precise

 

[Dalesean027]

besides the rulebook, when talking about creatures' sheets and its characteristics, going out of its way to say very clearly it is not possible to command creatures

the statement that you have is literally only just this "creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others" with no other context or scans provided otherwise. So just having "creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others" alone be what is said is literally 0 proof for mind manip by itself. You don't meed mind manipulation to attempt to command or control something or someone so by itself that means nothing and doesn't support your point. Its why im saying you need actual scans for the mind manip part specifically

 

[Nonynho]

the statement that you have is literally only just this "creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others" with no other context or scans provided otherwise. So just having "creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others" alone be what is said is literally 0 proof for mind manip by itself. You don't meed mind manipulation to attempt to command or control something or someone so by itself that means nothing and doesn't support your point. Its why im saying you need actual scans for the mind manip part specifically

That part specifically talks about mind manipping, because controlling through physical means is possible and done in the verse, so it wouldn't be reffering to that (below is shown Enpap-X, one of Deconjuration boss fights, being restrained with ropes in his neck, displaying that control through physical means may be possible and some creatures have deactivated forms. Below that there are the rituals we mentioned)

I'll wait for answers and try searching a bit if we have TLHs for portuguese of if i'll just convince all of you that MTL is ok for this situation or registrate myself as TLH for portuguese lmfao

 

[Dalesean027]

That part specifically talks about mind manipping, because controlling through physical means is possible and done in the verse

Which is why im saying TL that part and not the one part you did that means nothing by itself, genuinely y are we even having a back and forth on this

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't know that we've ever had the precedent to treat something like this as a layer so I'm pretty iffy on doing so, count me as neutral here until more staff weigh in

Definitely not, I could think of quite a few verses that would have like 100 layers of resistance if that was the case

Agree with Dalesean027 on everything else as well.

 

[Lynieryz]

I'm pretty sure Anima layers were accepted for the same reason.

Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

@Eseseso dont think we have, but then again I doubt he has it due to the verse wide nuke that happened.. Well he doesn't interact with concepts that are independent of reality, so not really. It's an odd one, she said hest to powerful to turn into a goat which would imply it's strength based...

vsbattles.com

Anyway, it's best to tag Theglassman12 since he's knowledgeable about layers.

 

[Nonynho]

Definitely not, I could think of quite a few verses that would have like 100 layers of resistance if that was the case

We took from a blog that was trying to get accepted in DnD and, as @Lynieryz shown, there's a verse where this got approved

By having a precedent are you more inclined in accepting that?

 

[Redite250]

The scan used in this part only says that creatures cannot be controlled or commanded by others which is fine but that alone doesn't support the latter half of what you're saying in the justification so do you have the scans for the rest to justify why this would actually relate to mind manip specifcally.

Here is the creator of Ordem clarifying what that rule means. To be clear, perturbation is a ritual that affects the mind and deals knowledge damage, and here he is explaining that if used on a creature, only the knowledge damage will happen. This comment is from a discord chat about the rulebook, where Cellbit talked to people who were giving feedback on it before and following its full release. This should clarify that that specific rule is indeed including mind control in "it is impossible to command creatures from the other side"

In regards to scans for the immortality and self sustenance, I have the existence of this guy. To give context, that's a roman soldier that turned into a creature, and it's still alive and well after staying in ruins for thousands of years with no one to give food or drink. This is the most basic creature of all, too, a blood zombie, it has no special ability other than just sort of being a blood goon, meaning it shouldn't be a particularity of these creatures because they aren't particularly special creatures. Also, these should work for scans to their type 2 immortality. The first scan shows Remi, a human with high paranormal exposition survive Raziel clawing through his entire abdomen and chest, and this attack doesn't even put him into dying state. Now, Paranormal Exposition grants humans this sort of endurance, and paranormal exposition is basically a metric that says how similar you are to a creature. The second is Raziel himself, his true form, and as you can see he has like no muscle mass, his ribcage is exposed, he has several gunshot wounds, knife wounds, axe wounds covering his body, and yet he is still alive and well. Raziel is not a creature, he is a monstrous human, which is like halfway to becoming a creature, and this survivability of his is specifically tied to his monstrous transformation, meaning it should scale to how "creature-like" he is.

I hope these are enough ! Also, in regards to layers, I'm pretty sure DnD works in a similar way, though I'm not too well versed in the subject.

 

[Nonynho]

From this page, i'll be doing MTL, because all leads me to believe we got no TLHs for PTBR yet and i can affirm it is precise because it's my first language
hell, i may become the first one, if i'm permitted the honour.
Prints below can be seen in the page i sent and quoted above:

THIS should get 100% clarification that they're immune to mind manip

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Definitely not, I could think of quite a few verses that would have like 100 layers of resistance if that was the case

Agree with Dalesean027 on everything else as well.

So. We definitely do have verses that work like this. D&D, for example, but I think it's a nuanced thing.

D&D works like this because each number value up is a new resistance level an ability works on that it would not have worked on previously

If the save DC for my blinding ability is 17 as opposed to 16, it can now affect creatures rolling a 16.

For the purposes of VSBW, in regards to the D&D comparison at least, we obviously don't account for dice rolling and look to averages instead. A DC 11 ability is, therefore, baseline; this will affect regular humans but not anything with any resistance at all (i.e., a +1 value to that save type). A DC 12 affects creatures with a baseline resistance, but not anything above that (+2). Each step affects more creatures that were unaffected in the last step. Thus we have the establishment of layers.

I believe this is the case here, as well, though the numbers are a bit funkier. Anima was mentioned in this thread, so I will point to it as well: its layers do not work exactly as D&D does, despite also presenting them as numbers, simply because there are larger gaps in said numbers than in D&D. A +36 might not indicate any particular resistance over a +35, simply because there is nothing with a +36. The next step is +40. So the layer difference between +35 and +40 in this case, would only be 1.

If this works like D&D, then the highest layer in the Ordem Paranormal book would be acceptably 35 layers of resistance. If it works differently, I would like to know. Are there creatures at every bonus (so, +1, +2, +3, and so on), or does it skip steps? If there's a few missing (like, if there are no creatures with +34, for example), I don't mind that; I'm looking to establish a trend, rather than require absolutely that every slot be filled. I'm not entirely sure of the character argument: it seems to be conflating the character's DC with their resistances? Is this how it works in this RPG? It would be very different from D&D and other RPGs I know. Normally, how well a character resists effects, and the resistance needed to resist their effects, are two distinct values.

 

[SomebodyData]

So. We definitely do have verses that work like this. D&D, for example, but I think it's a nuanced thing.

D&D works like this because each number value up is a new resistance level an ability works on that it would not have worked on previously

If the save DC for my blinding ability is 17 as opposed to 16, it can now affect creatures rolling a 16.

For the purposes of VSBW, in regards to the D&D comparison at least, we obviously don't account for dice rolling and look to averages instead. A DC 11 ability is, therefore, baseline; this will affect regular humans but not anything with any resistance at all (i.e., a +1 value to that save type). A DC 12 affects creatures with a baseline resistance, but not anything above that (+2). Each step affects more creatures that were unaffected in the last step. Thus we have the establishment of layers.

I believe this is the case here, as well, though the numbers are a bit funkier. Anima was mentioned in this thread, so I will point to it as well: its layers do not work exactly as D&D does, despite also presenting them as numbers, simply because there are larger gaps in said numbers than in D&D. A +36 might not indicate any particular resistance over a +35, simply because there is nothing with a +36. The next step is +40. So the layer difference between +35 and +40 in this case, would only be 1.

If this works like D&D, then the highest layer in the Ordem Paranormal book would be acceptably 35 layers of resistance. If it works differently, I would like to know. Are there creatures at every bonus (so, +1, +2, +3, and so on), or does it skip steps? If there's a few missing (like, if there are no creatures with +34, for example), I don't mind that; I'm looking to establish a trend, rather than require absolutely that every slot be filled. I'm not entirely sure of the character argument: it seems to be conflating the character's DC with their resistances? Is this how it works in this RPG? It would be very different from D&D and other RPGs I know. Normally, how well a character resists effects, and the resistance needed to resist their effects, are two distinct values.

Huh, a very interesting read.

Are these standards written down yet? I think it'd be good to have a page for them considering how nuanced some verses are. I'd also ask how we draw the line between this and game mechanics, but that would probably derail the thread.

We took from a blog that was trying to get accepted in DnD and, as @Lynieryz shown, there's a verse where this got approved

By having a precedent are you more inclined in accepting that?

Yeah, that does change things. I'll rescind my disagreement for now, but will wait before agreeing to anything, untill some of the question points from Agnaa's post are answered.

From this page, i'll be doing MTL, because all leads me to believe we got no TLHs for PTBR yet and i can affirm it is precise because it's my first language
hell, i may become the first one, if i'm permitted the honour.
Prints below can be seen in the page i sent and quoted above:

THIS should get 100% clarification that they're immune to mind manip

It's not bad to use MTL as a starting resource but it can't be used on the wiki. I know it's your first language but not a good idea to post it regardless.

Surprised we don't already have a Portuguese translator to be honest

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's not bad to use MTL as a starting resource but it can't be used on the wiki.

Honestly, as a native Brazilian, it doesn't make much difference whether use an online translator. Any online translator translates Portuguese to English with almost 100% accuracy.

The only concern is that sometimes Google Translate translates simple things incorrectly (it's gotten much worse in recent years), so using GPT or DeepL is much better.

But even so, nothing that Nonynho translated with Google Translate is wrong.

 

[SomebodyData]

Honestly, as a native Brazilian, it doesn't make much difference whether I use an online translator. Any online translator translates Portuguese to English with almost 100% accuracy.

The only concern is that sometimes Google Translate translates simple things incorrectly (it's gotten much worse in recent years), so using GPT or DeepL is much better.

But even so, nothing that Nonynho translated with Google Translate is wrong.

I know, my irl job deals with a lot Portuguese and Spanish, so I often get told to use MTL since it's pretty good for those.

We mostly restrict it to be even-handed, since MTL for a lot of non-Latin based languages tends to still be pretty lacking.

Maybe in the future, that could change. But idk.

 

[Redite250]

If this works like D&D, then the highest layer in the Ordem Paranormal book would be acceptably 35 layers of resistance. If it works differently, I would like to know. Are there creatures at every bonus (so, +1, +2, +3, and so on), or does it skip steps? If there's a few missing (like, if there are no creatures with +34, for example), I don't mind that; I'm looking to establish a trend, rather than require absolutely that every slot be filled. I'm not entirely sure of the character argument: it seems to be conflating the character's DC with their resistances? Is this how it works in this RPG? It would be very different from D&D and other RPGs I know. Normally, how well a character resists effects, and the resistance needed to resist their effects, are two distinct values.

Creatures usually have resistances in multiples of five. Players also start with 5 in fortitude or will if they choose to be proficient, and the proficiency level can rise up to three times (From trained, to veteran, to expert) which also raises these skills in increments of five. However, there are several passive abilities that stack and allow players to add +2 to these skills (these are very common), and there are also skills that allow them to add an attribute to these checks, and attributes can vary from 1 to 6, which means that, at least for players, mathematically they could reasonably have any value. Like I said, however, enemies usually have their resistance values in increments of +5, but there are some enemies that can add extra dice like 1d6 or 1d12 to their resistances, though they are not the norm. The trend is that creatures have their resistances in multiples of five, but players have much more varied numbers by design, since creature's DC aren't as rigid as their resistance values: creatures one level higher than the last could have a DC that is +1, +2, or +4. I may have worded the OP poorly if it reads like DCs and resistances are the same thing, but they aren't, they are separate, and usually a character's DC is also much much lower than their own resistances, except for creatures.

 

[Nonynho]

Maybe in the future, that could change. But idk.

the first change we'll make is me becoming a TLH for PTBR lol

Creatures usually have resistances in multiples of five. Players also start with 5 in fortitude or will if they choose to be proficient, and the proficiency level can rise up to three times (From trained, to veteran, to expert) which also raises these skills in increments of five. However, there are several passive abilities that stack and allow players to add +2 to these skills (these are very common), and there are also skills that allow them to add an attribute to these checks, and attributes can vary from 1 to 6, which means that, at least for players, mathematically they could reasonably have any value. Like I said, however, enemies usually have their resistance values in increments of +5, but there are some enemies that can add extra dice like 1d6 or 1d12 to their resistances, though they are not the norm. The trend is that creatures have their resistances in multiples of five, but players have much more varied numbers by design, since creature's DC aren't as rigid as their resistance values: creatures one level higher than the last could have a DC that is +1, +2, or +4. I may have worded the OP poorly if it reads like DCs and resistances are the same thing, but they aren't, they are separate, and usually a character's DC is also much much lower than their own resistances, except for creatures.

If this works like D&D, then the highest layer in the Ordem Paranormal book would be acceptably 35 layers of resistance. If it works differently, I would like to know.

@Redite250 explained pretty well, IMO.

 

[Nonynho]

bump

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,

any opinions changed on the mind manip and layers?

 

[Dalesean027]

Layers should be fine then from what Bambu explained

 

[Redite250]

Layers should be fine then from what Bambu explained

What about the mind manip and self sustenance/immo? I edited the post, to add scans for those and to remove some types of self sustenance since in between me writing the document and nowadays, new material released that actually had evidence to the contrary, with creatures being able to sleep.

 

[SomebodyData]

bump




any opinions changed on the mind manip and layers?

Yeah it should be fine now for me as well

 

[Redite250]

I'm not too experienced with CRTs, does this mean the changes can now be applied?