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Chainsaw Man discussion thread

AnimesFreak2 said:
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Being the devil that all devils fear the most is a feat of high fear scaling, but it is generally unquantifiable. We have no idea where that places him on the fear scaling spectrum. We only know that he is far more powerful than the 20% Gun Devil in Part 1.

In the big fight against the Four Horsemen and the Weapon Devils, the extent of all parties involved is pretty much unquantifiable as well. All we know from a scaling standpoint is that Yoru was giving him trouble and killed him multiple times while being assisted by her comrades and the other Horsemen. This eventually ended with her comrades and then Yoru herself being erased over time in a battle of attrition.

We only know that after that, things got bad enough that Pochita had to flee from the remaining Horsemen, which would include Death, Control and Famine. Pochita also consistently harms Primals and shows relativity to them as seen in the Aging Devil arc. They can physically harm each other and vice versa. I am not really sure what point you are trying to push across here.
 
GunshyFever said:
Being the devil that all devils fear the most is a feat of high fear scaling, but it is generally unquantifiable. We have no idea where that places him on the fear scaling spectrum. We only know that he is far more powerful than the 20% Gun Devil in Part 1.

In the big fight against the Four Horsemen and the Weapon Devils, the extent of all parties involved is pretty much unquantifiable as well. All we know from a scaling standpoint is that Yoru was giving him trouble and killed him multiple times while being assisted by her comrades and the other Horsemen. This eventually ended with her comrades and then Yoru herself being erased over time in a battle of attrition.

We only know that after that, things got bad enough that Pochita had to flee from the remaining Horsemen, which would include Death, Control and Famine. Pochita also consistently harms Primals and shows relativity to them as seen in the Aging Devil arc. They can physically harm each other and vice versa. I am not really sure what point you are trying to push across here.
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- I mean I would say near if not at the top. As I said we know more fear=more strength. And if he is feared more than any devil ( primals included ) than logically he is stronger than any Devil. Seems pretty simple

- This is backed by the fact he fought Death among the Horseman as I said who is the strongest Primal. There is no reason to assume Pochita was getting stomped. We know he eventually overpowered Nuke Yoru ( Who is Primal tier ) to eat her and there no reason to assume Death wasn't trying either so even if for some reason you didn't scale him to her full power he would need to be Primal tier to clash with her even briefly.

- The issue is that was a Pochita who was amped to be a Primal himself ( everday fear ) basically by Barem's plan as we know. That wasn't the same Pochita from Part 1 and before. There is nothing saying he was pushed back to his Part 1 self, in fact we even scale him above his Part 1 self because of this plan

You see what I am saying now? ( or not and it just hard to convey over text )
 
AnimesFreak2 said:
Also I am of the firm belief that Nuclear Bombs Devil was Primal tier

It just makes sense

Anyone else?
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Nah. Primal is stuff beyond humanity and fully feared across all life. Nukes were only created recently 30~ years, plus given ww2 was erased that'd mean the bombs dropped in Japan were forgotten.
 
Arkenis said:
Nah. Primal is stuff beyond humanity and fully feared across all life. Nukes were only created recently 30~ years, plus given ww2 was erased that'd mean the bombs dropped in Japan were forgotten.
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- I mean yeah we know it was erased hence why I said "was" lol. I meant before Pochita ate him

- And I mean tbf I have no doubt nukes were probably feared more than almost anything once people heard the news. I mean imagine learning countries now had the power of the sun in their palm and could literally end the world any second by turning some keys. Wouldn't you say that is gonna make you fear something like that more than say something like Aging...hell you would appreciate Aging more if anything since you finna wanna age and die peacefully than get nuked lmao

- Also how much of a relevant amp it was to a Yoru who was already physically Primal tier after her amp in the Aging arc. Straight up obliterated Pochita barring his head with her nuke power

Thoughts? 🤔
 
AnimesFreak2 said:
- I mean I would say near if not at the top. As I said we know more fear=more strength. And if he is feared more than any devil ( primals included ) than logically he is stronger than any Devil. Seems pretty simple
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You are partially wrong. Yes, more fear does equate to more strength, but that strength can also be distributed into abilities and other aspects. It is listed and explained on the verse page; (Meaning some of that fear can be distributed to his E.E to empower it)
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And no, Pochita is not "more feared than any devil". He is the devil that all devils fear the most. That simply means that the largest unquantified number of devils fear Pochita in comparison to any other devil. This does not make him Primal level because Primal Devils in general gain their empowerment from concepts ingrained within the human psyche, awakened the moment human beings first became aware and feared at the same time. So in their case you have nearly every human being alive and throughout history fearing these devils, in contrast to an unquantified number of devils fearing Pochita. It is not the same.
AnimesFreak2 said:
- This is backed by the fact he fought Death among the Horseman as I said who is the strongest Primal. There is no reason to assume Pochita was getting stomped. We know he eventually overpowered Nuke Yoru ( Who is Primal tier ) to eat her and there no reason to assume Death wasn't trying either so even if for some reason you didn't scale him to her full power he would need to be Primal tier to clash with her even briefly.
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That is only the case if you choose to ignore how the Death Devil functions. Despite being the strongest devil, her physical stats and abilities are restricted unless she activates her power. Chainsaw Man Church arc Yoru was able to give her nosebleeds, which is inconsistent considering that the strongest devil is being harmed by someone who was at best massively inferior to a Pochita who was comparable to the Aging Devil.

We are also constantly ignoring that the Death Devil's entire ability is to instantly kill her opponents, which does not require physical stats at all. And yes, he is Primal tier in Part 2 because of the Death Devil's plans. We know this. He is just not the physically strongest devil. That is misinformation.
AnimesFreak2 said:
- The issue is that was a Pochita who was amped to be a Primal himself ( everday fear ) basically by Barem's plan as we know. That wasn't the same Pochita from Part 1 and before. There is nothing saying he was pushed back to his Part 1 self, in fact we even scale him above his Part 1 self because of this plan

You see what I am saying now? ( or not and it just hard to convey over text )
Click to expand...
That is the general consensus for Part 2 Pochita, yes. He is Primal level. I am just trying to point out that his Part 1 variant is not.
 
Arkenis said:
  • Aging devil world creation an egreious lowball, considering there's a source of light and mountains.
  • Darkness devil creating darkness likely across all of hell.
  • Someone flooded hell (maybe Typhoon devil), again very in line with the biblical references.
  • Falling devil causing gravity flucations across Earth, bare minimum should be the same across Japan or even Tokyo
Is there anymore big feats?
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Isn't aging devil's world implied to be infinite similarly to eternity devil one? Denji was running on a loop around there, if it's infinite then I don't think it's applicable to scaling as it would be high universal
 
GunshyFever said:
You are partially wrong. Yes, more fear does equate to more strength, but that strength can also be distributed into abilities and other aspects. It is listed and explained on the verse page; (Meaning some of that fear can be distributed to his E.E to empower it)

And no, Pochita is not "more feared than any devil". He is the devil that all devils fear the most. That simply means that the largest unquantified number of devils fear Pochita in comparison to any other devil. This does not make him Primal level because Primal Devils in general gain their empowerment from concepts ingrained within the human psyche, awakened the moment human beings first became aware and feared at the same time. So in their case you have nearly every human being alive and throughout history fearing these devils, in contrast to an unquantified number of devils fearing Pochita. It is not the same.

That is only the case if you choose to ignore how the Death Devil functions. Despite being the strongest devil, her physical stats and abilities are restricted unless she activates her power. Chainsaw Man Church arc Yoru was able to give her nosebleeds, which is inconsistent considering that the strongest devil is being harmed by someone who was at best massively inferior to a Pochita who was comparable to the Aging Devil.

We are also constantly ignoring that the Death Devil's entire ability is to instantly kill her opponents, which does not require physical stats at all. And yes, he is Primal tier in Part 2 because of the Death Devil's plans. We know this. He is just not the physically strongest devil. That is misinformation.

That is the general consensus for Part 2 Pochita, yes. He is Primal level. I am just trying to point out that his Part 1 variant is not.
Click to expand...

- What other abilities does Pochita have that got distributed though? All he has is regen and his devil erasure, the former which doesn't get stronger or weaker and the latter which also doesn't get stronger or weaker ( merely retconned in the last chapter as to how it works ) he is literally just a brawler with chainsaws who's physical stats get effected by fear boost or reduction as we see in Part 1 and 2

- And as far as we are aware, Pochita had never even been to Earth before his battle with the Horseman. Meaning all that power he had would have to be from the fears devils had of him, not humans since chainsaws are nowhere near as feared as even something like Typhoons let alone Guns. And since it is said that he is feared by devils more than any other devil, that would include Primal fears. There is no reason to not include them especially when we already know they exist by the point Makima says what she does in the scan you posted.

- Ok and who is to say her power was restricted during their fight Pre Part 1? Logically speaking the fact the 4 Horsemen had to team up alongside all the weapons devils to fight Pochita back in the day implies that at least individually none of them would have been able to...that including Death herself despite the fact she is the King of Hell

- And once again, even IF we ignore Death, we know for a fact that Nuke Yoru herself is Primal Devil Tier. And while YES, she managed to kill Pochita several times during the fight Chainsaw vs Loser Sisters, Pochita managed to overpower her to be able to eat her. It's not as if though he has hax to match her, as I said before..we know he just a brawler. And Yoru has already shown to be above Primal Devil's physicals even BEFORE her Nuke Amp as per the Aging Arc.

Which is just more evidence that Part 1 Pochita would HAVE to have been Primal tier and therefore his power level in Part 2 got retconned ( intentionally or not )
 
Breadbear83 said:
Isn't aging devil's world implied to be infinite similarly to eternity devil one? Denji was running on a loop around there, if it's infinite then I don't think it's applicable to scaling as it would be high universal
Click to expand...
how fast do you think denji's running speed is?
 
I wonder how strong the Longsword Devil was before guns were invented. Because during the Medieval Age a sword is what comes to mind when you say "weapon". Everyone who is worth shit carries it, kings forge it with jewels for status, legends are are written about it such as the Excalibur. So a Sword would basically be the Gun Devil equivalent post iron age to pre industrial era. Far longer than guns have existed.
 
AnimesFreak2 said:
- What other abilities does Pochita have that got distributed though? All he has is regen and his devil erasure, the former which doesn't get stronger or weaker and the latter which also doesn't get stronger or weaker ( merely retconned in the last chapter as to how it works ) he is literally just a brawler with chainsaws who's physical stats get effected by fear boost or reduction as we see in Part 1 and 2
Click to expand...
His EE and his regeneration as you mentioned are part of it. I am not sure what led you to the conclusion that his EE cannot get stronger or weaker when we see that even the Horsemen like Yoru now struggle to remember concepts he eats after his power up despite being able to remember them before. I am also not really sure what got "retconned". Everything has remained mostly the same. When Pochita erases a concept reality alters and changes based on that concept no longer existing at all. We see this in pretty much every demonstration of Pochita's EE unless I am missing something here.

But him being a brawler with physical stats and chainsaws does not really undermine my point that fear scaling is distributed among certain areas of a character. Nor do you really address that regardless Part 1 Pochita would not scale to the Primal Devils in Part 1 due to my arguments above.
GunshyFever said:
And no, Pochita is not "more feared than any devil". He is the devil that all devils fear the most. That simply means that the largest unquantified number of devils fear Pochita in comparison to any other devil. This does not make him Primal level because Primal Devils in general gain their empowerment from concepts ingrained within the human psyche, awakened the moment human beings first became aware and feared at the same time. So in their case you have nearly every human being alive and throughout history fearing these devils, in contrast to an unquantified number of devils fearing Pochita. It is not the same.
Click to expand...
AnimesFreak2 said:
- And as far as we are aware, Pochita had never even been to Earth before his battle with the Horseman. Meaning all that power he had would have to be from the fears devils had of him, not humans since chainsaws are nowhere near as feared as even something like Typhoons let alone Guns. And since it is said that he is feared by devils more than any other devil, that would include Primal fears. There is no reason to not include them especially when we already know they exist by the point Makima says what she does in the scan you posted.
Click to expand...
That is not true. If we go back to Part 1 during Makima's conversation about Pochita before their big fight, she states that he fought the Four Horsemen and the Weapon Devils, who are now on Earth because at the height of their battle against Pochita he vanished before their eyes. They came to Earth in search of him, but they could not find him because he was living in a changed near death form. We know this is referring to the dog form we see Pochita in when Denji initially finds him. So we know that Pochita somehow fled to Earth, and that the Horsemen also came to Earth in search of him but could not find him.

Regardless of that, you seem to be missing the point I was making regarding Pochita being feared by devils. I was not denying what you said. The majority of Pochita's empowerment comes from the devils who fear him more than any other devil in Hell, including the Primal Fears. I did mention this. My point is that he would not be as feared as the Primal Devils because they receive fear instinctively from humans as soon as they are born and throughout history. That unquantifiable number of humans is far larger than the unquantifiable number of devils that fear Pochita.

For example, let us say there are 8 billion devils and x amount of them fear Pochita. Let us say x is 5 billion devils. That would just mean x is greater than the amount of devils who fear the Primal Devils. Now let us look at humans. The amount of humans who fear the Primal Devils from birth, including those currently alive, would be relative to 8 billion. You can see how much of a difference that makes. X receives a certain amount of fear from devils, but much less from humans, while the Primal Devils receive empowerment from both, which is what makes them so powerful.
AnimesFreak2 said:
- Ok and who is to say her power was restricted during their fight Pre Part 1? Logically speaking the fact the 4 Horsemen had to team up alongside all the weapons devils to fight Pochita back in the day implies that at least individually none of them would have been able to...that including Death herself despite the fact she is the King of Hell
Click to expand...
That is speculation though. What do you know and what proof do you have? We know Death participated, but we have no idea to what extent. She could have simply instant killed him a few times while watching from the sidelines without much interest.
AnimesFreak2 said:
- And once again, even IF we ignore Death, we know for a fact that Nuke Yoru herself is Primal Devil Tier. And while YES, she managed to kill Pochita several times during the fight Chainsaw vs Loser Sisters, Pochita managed to overpower her to be able to eat her. It's not as if though he has hax to match her, as I said before..we know he just a brawler. And Yoru has already shown to be above Primal Devil's physicals even BEFORE her Nuke Amp as per the Aging Arc.

Which is just more evidence that Part 1 Pochita would HAVE to have been Primal tier and therefore his power level in Part 2 got retconned ( intentionally or not )
Click to expand...
I am not sure if you are referring to Part 1 Yoru or Nuke Yoru, considering that the former is a key for her late Part 2 self, and she only gets that powerful because of the Death Devil's plans, the Falling Devil's global fallout, and nuclear weapons being reinvented. Those three empowerment boosts caused her concept to reach the level of a Primal Fear. Back then you cannot prove that she was that strong. Sure, there were nuclear weapons and World War II, but that is far less impactful than the fear boosts she was given within this new reality. At best you could say that back then she was Pochita's physical superior. That is about it. Also, what are you talking about? Yoru does not have Primal level physicals pre Nuke amp.

Part 1 Pochita fought non Primal Devils excluding Death in Part 1 and only reached Primal tier in Part 2 because of the Chainsaw Man apocalypse, the fear of devils and fear from humans which he never had before.
AnimesFreak2 said:
@GunshyFever Look bro maybe I am just not conveying what I mean properly over text

Maybe we can VC or something in Discord sometime so we can discuss this more properly if you down for it

I don't want to spend the rest of the night debating this and I doubt you want to either lol
Click to expand...
Sadly I do not have the time to sit in VC and discuss such a broad topic, but I agree that text can be tedious. Maybe one of these days we can VC about it. I would not have a problem with that.
 
It is the most active arc in CSM when it comes to world building, but putting it over the Gun Devil arc, the Control Devil arc, or the Chainsaw Man Church arc? Personally, nah.
 
GunshyFever said:
Those images aren't loading up. But I think I know what you mean.
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I have no idea why they’re not loading. But I’m referring to when the Snake Devil appears next to Sawatari to devour the Ghost Devil, and then when it appears above the Gun Devil

In both panels, you can see that its size is quite different. It’s likely that the Snake Devil can change its size depending on the devil it has to eat or attack. Otherwise, beyond being a scale inconsistency in the manga, I think it could affect the calculation we have for the Snake Devil.
 
Gonna reread CSM. Can't wait to see how everything didn't matter cuz twt said so.
 
Arkenis said:
Can't wait to see how everything didn't matter
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QzZWQS5qcGc
 
Arkenis said:
Pochita says he has no idea what will happen. Does everything need to be preestablished to make it fine? I feel like its one of those risk it all moves that tons of series do. Using powers in unestablished ways used to be major moments that people liked, what happened cuz I see so many people make this point. And you could easily argue Pochita's very nature is unknown, he fits into no known fear, his main weapon stems from a rather weak fear and yet his real hax is conceptual erasure on a historical level. Why can't this just be an attribute never shown because he's never ate himself.
Click to expand...
I'm just saying it simply never did that before so it's weird him eating himself did so much more than him just being forgotten and the concept of chainsaws or whatever he is being erased
Epiccheev said:
yeah, but you forgot the sucking
Click to expand...
everybody-cartoon.gif
 
GunshyFever said:
I don't see why it would affect the calculation we already have.
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I’m mainly saying this because if we take the measurements shown in Chapter 25, it would imply that the Snake Devil is way smaller. Iirc, the calculation we have is based on the Snake Devil’s KE from Chapter 76.

I could be wrong though.
 
The calc already accounts for that difference though, it just uses Chapter 25 as a proportional reference for the Chapter 76 appearance.
 
Kinda of a crack theory, but what if we used mass-energy conversion for Oregon Slash and Nuclear Punch? Not saying its a valid method, but transmutating all the population into energy for those attacks would be funny
 
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