Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Spent the whole weekend playing the new life is strange.

Hey Suigetsuhyugs, could you give me a hand? I'm focusing on Iron Man because he's objectively the coolest.

I can't really take much time now to go get the scans.
I can't speak for all the characters there, but Carol I know very well, I could go around and pick a bunch of times where she fights while flying because a huge part of her plot is her love for flying which results with her flying 90% of the time she is fighting, it doesn't really make any sense whatsoever to differenciate that for Carol.
Rex brought up the "scaling to flight speed" I sent him the 4 feats that he showed in the OP

Before you ask, yes there are numerous instances of characters in this tier reacting to their flight speed, Black Bolt and Rouge's feats in particular involve them reacting to objects as their fly.

I also sent him this one for Mar-vell which also ends up being one for Super Skrull as well
Mar-Vell flying in space while dodging attacks from Super Skrull who was after him

If you insist there needs to be more evidence I will try to find more but only by tuesday, I will keep up with the discussion anyways.

 

[Armorchompy]

This calc I got evaluated had this recommendation for 1 second per panel.

@Naito-desu where are you getting the one second per panel thing? Not that either has a very solid basis but I've usually seen three.

Like I already said he is dumb with how he holds back, he doesn’t think to hold back to an extent that he is slightly stronger then his opponents but not massively stronger and he isn’t going to be much smarter when it comes to how he holds back speed

Also "he's dumb about this" isn't something you can argue without clear evidence. If you can find statements he does hold back his speed we can have a discussion about those but as of right now it's basically headcanon.

Spider-Man holding back his AP is also not as omnipresent of a thing as you're trying to make it seem. He pulls his punches on some rogues, he definitely does just need to go all out against a bunch of them, arguably most. You have literal decades of inner monologues where he's mostly going "shit this guy is really tough", you can't argue he's that much more powerful than his rogues lol.

Before you ask, yes there are numerous instances of characters in this tier reacting to their flight speed, Black Bolt and Rouge's feats in particular involve them reacting to objects as their fly.

By the way I missed this bit and I think it's only fair that I respond to it. Reacting to things in flight doesn't immediately mean you're comparable to your flight speed. Firstly there is the matter of acceleration, most of these feats are characters crossing long distances, which means they have more space to accelerate than they would in the middle of a fight. The second factor is that a large object moving along a consistent path can be followed very easily even with lesser reaction speeds. You can easily watch a plane fly through the sky even though it's going at nearly the speed of sound, and similarly you can track a large projectile even if it's going very fast. Similarly flying towards a man-sized target isn't that difficult if you're able to perceive them from a decent distance away.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Firstly there is the matter of acceleration, most of these feats are characters crossing long distances, which means they have more space to accelerate than they would in the middle of a fight.

Do we know they require such time to accelerate to their top speeds? Is that indicated anywhere?

The second factor is that a large object moving along a consistent path can be followed very easily even with lesser reaction speeds

Not necessarily, if you're making maneuvers to avoid things in close range while flying, or are moving in the opposite direction of the object and hit it the moment you reach it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do we know they require such time to accelerate to their top speeds? Is that indicated anywhere?

It's the default assumption. Saying a character can instantly reach top speed is kind of nonsensical unless there's proof, that just isn't momentum works. But if you need evidence Ms. Marvel's first scan you posted says she needs to push her speed to its utmost - meaning she's not already flying at full speed despite trying to.

Not necessarily, if you're making maneuvers to avoid things in close range while flying, or are moving in the opposite direction of the object and hit it the moment you reach it.

Depends. I haven't looked through every feat but the handful you showed didn't really seem viable. Ms. Marvel dodges at close range but isn't necessarily going that fast, Black Bolt's pals have seconds to see the missile coming and react to it (meaning it's not really going so fast normal perception speed can't see it coming), Rouge knows where she's heading the moment she starts flying...

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Black Bolt's pals

I was referring to Black Bolt himself, he had to get in close, moving opposite to the missile, and corrode it.

But if you need evidence Ms. Marvel's first scan you posted says she needs to push her speed to its utmost - meaning she's not already flying at full speed despite trying to.

No? She's just stating what she's presently doing, and even so she dodges attacks and keeps fighting while flying after that line.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Also "he's dumb about this" isn't something you can argue without clear evidence. If you can find statements he does hold back his speed we can have a discussion about those but as of right now it's basically headcanon.

you know what, fine I concede, if you think either that his statements about pulling his punches somehow don’t apply to the speed of his punches or that he can magically switch speed whenever he goes from punching to dodging, then I think your wrong but I have no way to prove I’m correct, so his speed can just be upscaled from street tiers for now

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Saying a character can instantly reach top speed is kind of nonsensical unless there's proof

That's not necessary, it just needs to reach top speed quickly. A high acceleration can achieve that in a short timeframe.

 

[Naito-desu]

@Naito-desu where are you getting the one second per panel thing? Not that either has a very solid basis but I've usually seen three.

I've seen it be used as basis on some manga panels like this one before so I presumed it was standard. My bad otherwise

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I've seen it be used as basis on some manga panels like this one before so I presumed it was standard. My bad otherwise

In your defense, on that one Drite77 said the same thing.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Alright, so the Iron Man Model 4 has shown reaction and maneuverability while flying in Iron Man #120, Iron Man Annual #7, Iron Man #172, Avengers #193, and Iron Man #173. She-Hulk could also dodge the Model 4 rocketing towards her at close range in Savage She-Hulk #6.

I found two other instances of the Model 4 dodging projectiles mid-flight, but I couldn't find the issue numbers for the scans.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

But if you need evidence Ms. Marvel's first scan you posted says she needs to push her speed to its utmost - meaning she's not already flying at full speed despite trying to.

She is specifically saying that she needs to use her utmost speed to perform the feat she is currently doing with success, which is avoiding Ronan's blasts while closing the distance which she does successfully.

 

[Hypertornado099]

The Captain America and Hawkeye feat is really wonky and I remember talking about it last year

It uses 600m/s as a low end, which is a bit generous, bullets could be like 334m/s. The calc also assumes Cap moves 5 times the distance of the arrow based on the pixel scaling, which is also really generous because we don't know if they started moving at the same time? Cap could have put up his shield before the arrow started flying

The same blog literally shows a scan of Cap finding it impossible to react to and swat away Hawkeye's arrow at a close range, which would contradict Cap being 5 times faster than the arrow

The second feat assumes he starts moving his shield 3 inches away from his face which is not actually confirmed in the scan


What the narration meant was that the missile was destroyed while it was inches away from Cap- he could have started moving the shield right before that

 

[Eseseso]

Not to be that guy, but is there any way OP could arrange the feats from largest to smallest so that it's easier to see what mid-tiers would scale to?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

It uses 600m/s as a low end, which is a bit generous, bullets could be like 334m/s. The calc also assumes Cap moves 5 times the distance of the arrow based on the pixel scaling, which is also really generous because we don't know if they started moving at the same time? Cap could have put up his shield before the arrow started flying

That's why I didn't bring it up.

What the narration meant was that the missile was destroyed while it was inches away from Cap- he could have started moving the shield right before that

Very well then, a recalc is in order.

What about the third feat?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Not to be that guy, but is there any way OP could arrange the feats from largest to smallest so that it's easier to see what mid-tiers would scale to?

Done.

 

[Armorchompy]

I was referring to Black Bolt himself, he had to get in close, moving opposite to the missile, and corrode it.

But the fact that the other inhumans can react to it shows that this isn't happening so fast that it can't be reacted to. This just isn't very different to a normal human piloting a supersonic jet and shooting down other jets (or people doing similar things on older fighter planes with no system assistance, if you wanna be precie).

Note that Black Bolt's feat in particular is really wack, they say it's exploding a few miles above the Earth and then the panel shows it happening in space, it's probably just an art fuckup

That's not necessary, it just needs to reach top speed quickly. A high acceleration can achieve that in a short timeframe.

Okay, and you can't prove that's happening. You're literally just saying "let's pretend they're going at top speed even though we have no way of knowing that."

 

[Rgerdeena]

Note that Black Bolt's feat in particular is really wack, they say it's exploding a few miles above the Earth and then the panel shows it happening in space, it's probably just an art fuckup

Atmosphere is technically part of earth, for all we know earth was referring to the atmosphere too, them being in space supports that it could’ve been referring to the atmosphere

 

[Rex_Eckles]

But the fact that the other inhumans can react to it shows that this isn't happening so fast that it can't be reacted to

No? That's very circular. All it means that the other inhuman's aren't slower in reaction speed to Black Bolt.

Note that Black Bolt's feat in particular is really wack, they say it's exploding a few miles above the Earth and then the panel shows it happening in space, it's probably just an art fuckup

No... it says miles above Earth, not a "few". Like how there are gallons of water in the ocean or metric tons of sand on a beach.

Okay, and you can't prove that's happening. You're literally just saying "let's pretend they're going at top speed even though we have no way of knowing that."

How about the fact that these feats take place over the course of a few seconds? That requires quick acceleration. Then we have fight scenes of them flying over the course of more seconds, so is that a stretch?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

All the scans I brought up either straight up say or imply she is moving at a really high speed during a fight, all of those emphasize her speed.

Okay, and you can't prove that's happening. You're literally just saying "let's pretend they're going at top speed even though we have no way of knowing that."

We do have a way.
First scan she literally states she is at her utmost speed, you have a weird interpretation of this but she is literally describing what she was doing as I have already said earlier
Second Scan she states "My only advantages are my speed and my agility-- but even I can't keep this pace forever" clearly emphasizing how she is going fast to the point where she can't keep it for long usually meaning top speeds which no one can keep for long time, it is also states by her and the narrator that any mistake she makes can kill her so she is fighting for her life.
Third scan , she states that Tiger Shark has lightning reactions for catching her feet while she is still taking off which means she reached that acceleration in less than 2 meter.
Fourth scan she is stating she needs to move fast because she is fighting to protect someone who is getting hurt as a hero it's a basic assumption that she is going at her top speed since she has a clear good reason to do so.

One of the feats calced is when she found an opening during a fight which she uses to push him through multiple buildings before taking him to space and the whole way up the skrull was hitting her so it's not like she was moving faster than he could react to.

I can also bring up that while in a fight she was moving relative to objects moving at light speed fighting while the objects are still going up

Her modern version is scaling MFTL+ from a feat where during a fight they moved light years none of her versions have a big different between flight and combat speed.

 

[Armorchompy]

All the scans I brought up either straight up say or imply she is moving at a really high speed during a fight, all of those emphasize her speed.

We do have a way.
First scan she literally states she is at her utmost speed, you have a weird interpretation of this but she is literally describing what she was doing as I have already said earlier

She says she's going as fast as she can, that doesn't mean it's her theoretical max speed, just that she can't go faster in this context.

Second Scan she states "My only advantages are my speed and my agility-- but even I can't keep this pace forever" clearly emphasizing how she is going fast to the point where she can't keep it for long usually meaning top speeds which no one can keep for long time, it is also states by her and the narrator that any mistake she makes can kill her so she is fighting for her life.
Third scan , she states that Tiger Shark has lightning reactions for catching her feet while she is still taking off which means she reached that acceleration in less than 2 meter.
Fourth scan she is stating she needs to move fast because she is fighting to protect someone who is getting hurt as a hero it's a basic assumption that she is going at her top speed since she has a clear good reason to do so.

None of these imply that she's going at full speed in the slightest. Just needing to maneuver in close quarters is way different than flying through space.

One of the feats calced is when she found an opening during a fight which she uses to push him through multiple buildings before taking him to space and the whole way up the skrull was hitting her so it's not like she was moving faster than he could react to.

She literally moved him in a straight line and then curved upwards. This isn't something you need high reaction speed to do.

I can also bring up that while in a fight she was moving relative to objects moving at light speed fighting while the objects are still going up

I just see her flying upwards here, not really fighting.

No? That's very circular. All it means that the other inhuman's aren't slower in reaction speed to Black Bolt.

They're having a whole conversation. That's not very likely to be happening in the span of 0.000001 seconds or whatever, is it?

No... it says miles above Earth, not a "few". Like how there are gallons of water in the ocean or metric tons of sand on a beach.

You wouldn't say "faster than the speed of sound" to talk about someone going FTL or "several tons" for someone moving a planet. It just shows a poor understanding of the distance involved. That's grounds enough to discard the feat, coupled with the above issue.

How about the fact that these feats take place over the course of a few seconds? That requires quick acceleration. Then we have fight scenes of them flying over the course of more seconds, so is that a stretch?

The distance is the concern, not the timeframe. If I'm having to constantly dodge back and forth I can do that for any amount of time without ever reaching the speed I would in a 100-meter dash.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

She says she's going as fast as she can, that doesn't mean it's her theoretical max speed, just that she can't go faster in this context.

Means her top speed, that's your interpretation not what she said.

None of these imply that she's going at full speed in the slightest. Just needing to maneuver in close quarters is way different than flying through space.

Most of the feats calced are her moving from surface to space therefore it involves her flying in earth atmosphere as well, she is not flying light years in the spam of seconds you are confusing MCU with comics for sure. As it is clear from those scans it does imply top speed as she is doing it with utmost urgency with even her life in danger, literally on of them put her as having nearly lightning speeds at take off in the middle of a fight.

She literally moved him in a straight line and then curved upwards. This isn't something you need high reaction speed to do.

It is when she in a middle of a fight she manages to grab her an unwillingly opponent taking him somewhere while he is hitting her the whole way in the worst possible interpretation the skrull scales to that speed as he can still react by punching her and Carol scales to his reaction speed.

I just see her flying upwards here, not really fighting.

She is persuing an enemy who reacts to her by punching her then she loses her breath so she flies back to atmosphere, persuing someone requires perception and reaction to change path, the enemy requires reaction and perception to punch Carol who was moving at that speed in his direction

They're having a whole conversation. That's not very likely to be happening in the span of 0.000001 seconds or whatever, is it?

Pretty sure we had a huge discussion not so long ago about how talking is not an argument to be used against speed as fiction often ignores it.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

They're having a whole conversation. That's not very likely to be happening in the span of 0.000001 seconds or whatever, is it?

Now we're talking about something else. You realize that no matter what speed the rocket is, it;s unrealistic to have a whole conversation and still have time to stop it gives how close it is?

You wouldn't say "faster than the speed of sound" to talk about someone going FTL or "several tons" for someone moving a planet. It just shows a poor understanding of the distance involved. That's grounds enough to discard the feat, coupled with the above issue.

Yet it is still accurate to say someone going FTL is faster than the speed of sound. Also, stop adding words that aren't there, the panel said "miles above", not "several miles above". By that logic, no one would say a library has books in it.

The distance is the concern, not the timeframe. If I'm having to constantly dodge back and forth I can do that for any amount of time without ever reaching the speed I would in a 100-meter dash.

Acceleration isn't fixed, someone can increase acceleration if necessary. Also, this relies on them accelerating throughout the entire trip instead of reaching their max speed part-way through the trip. Why should we assume that, especially since many comics, other works of fiction, and even reality don't treat it that way?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

@Naito-desu where are you getting the one second per panel thing? Not that either has a very solid basis but I've usually seen three.

I've seen it be used as basis on some manga panels like this one before so I presumed it was standard. My bad otherwise

Should I redo the calcs with a new timeframe?

 

[Armorchompy]

Maybe? I'd prefer it but I admit I don't really have like, solid evidence that 3 is better than 1 or anything, I don't know where Drite got that standard and I think 3 is closer to the rough average but... idk

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Maybe? I'd prefer it but I admit I don't really have like, solid evidence that 3 is better than 1 or anything, I don't know where Drite got that standard and I think 3 is closer to the rough average but... idk

Well... Don't know if this can apply to this situation but the author, Brian Reed, used 0.5 seconds for this scene.
This is the same writer that wrote this 2 feats and are part of the same comic book.

1. Carol Danvers flies to space (mach 8,130.8)
2. Carol Danvers flies to space with a nuke this time (0.0125 c)

 

[Armorchompy]

Realistically the amount of time between panels varies a lot even in the same issue. You've got action scenes where it probably is just a fraction of a second and slower scenes where it can even be minutes. It's best to actually judge the context and figure out a timeframe from there, the "X per panel" thing is more of a fallback if you can't do that.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Realistically the amount of time between panels varies a lot even in the same issue. You've got action scenes where it probably is just a fraction of a second and slower scenes where it can even be minutes. It's best to actually judge the context and figure out a timeframe from there, the "X per panel" thing is more of a fallback if you can't do that.

I know and you are right I'm just saying that maybe a lower interpretation might not be a bad idea, I mean both of those feats happen in the middle of a fight it's not so different in terms of urgency of the situation, maybe 1 second could work.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Maybe? I'd prefer it but I admit I don't really have like, solid evidence that 3 is better than 1 or anything, I don't know where Drite got that standard and I think 3 is closer to the rough average but... idk

I suppose for most of these feats, there's little dialogue on the panels and there's urgency in the scene, except for maybe this one.

 

[Rgerdeena]

I suppose for most of these feats, there's little dialogue on the panels and there's urgency in the scene, except for maybe this one.

You could try doing it based on average number of thoughts per second, technically it’s inaccurate since she can think faster then normal humans by a lot but it’s better then nothing

 

[Rex_Eckles]

You could try doing it based on average number of thoughts per second, technically it’s inaccurate since she can think faster then normal humans by a lot but it’s better then nothing

I'll just add a new end for 3 seconds per panel, she's thinking a lot.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Realistically the amount of time between panels varies a lot even in the same issue. You've got action scenes where it probably is just a fraction of a second and slower scenes where it can even be minutes. It's best to actually judge the context and figure out a timeframe from there, the "X per panel" thing is more of a fallback if you can't do that.

I added a new end for the Carol screaming and thinking feat, let me know what you think.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I also noticed, on Emma Frost's profile, she seems to react to and intercept Black Bolt flying at her from behind in Inhumans vs X-Men #5.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I also noticed, on Emma Frost's profile, she seems to react to and intercept Black Bolt flying at her from behind in Inhumans vs X-Men #5.

That’s a very good feat lol very blatant

 

[Rex_Eckles]

That’s a very good feat lol very blatant

Happy Black Bolt noises

Do you have an opinion on the seconds per panel conundrum?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Do you have an opinion on the seconds per panel conundrum?

I think you should evaluate panel by panel and take the context into consideration. If the scene is supposed to be fast, then I'd agree with a smaller timeframe.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I think you should evaluate panel by panel and take the context into consideration. If the scene is supposed to be fast, then I'd agree with a smaller timeframe.

Yeah, I thought so. I redid the end for Carol's rather slow atmosphere feat, what do you think?