Rematch: The Perfect Human vs The Greatest Boxer (10-16-0) *GRACE*

[Vzearr]

Grace, methinks.

How did you come to this conclusion.

 

[DaReaperMan]

How did you come to this conclusion.

3 vote difference.

 

[Vzearr]

3 vote difference.

Do we even do that if both sides has 7+ votes, I know we do it if the one side has 7 and the other has like 4.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Do we even do that if both sides has 7+ votes, I know we do it if the one side has 7 and the other has like 4.

...yeah? It's always a 3 vote difference, starting when one side has 7.

 

[Vzearr]

...yeah? It's always a 3 vote difference, starting when one side has 7.

Thank you for blessing me with your 50,000 post presence.

I see then.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

I also vote Ayanokoji fra.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I thought about something;

Ayanokouji has information analysis that made him realize Nanase had better dynamic acuidity, Ayanokouji also has micro vision that makes him able to see the opponent's body working in real time like seeing the blood vessels from the eyes constrict and know if the person is recieving information or not

The moment Ayanokouji realizes he wouldn't be able to hit him, he can just go for kicks to outrange Yu and make him dodge without being able to get closer, if he copies Ayanokouji kicks, he won't be able to use "precise" cuts with his legs, more over, Ayanokouji can limit his range by using ground based martial arts so even if Yu manages to punch him, he won't get a proper hit when Koji can block his face

If Yu dares to copy his MA (ground ones) he is screwed, no amount of "outskilling" will make him overcome a class 5 LS difference

Yu will just be dodging kicks, and be constantly trying to get out of the way from ground based MA until he tires himself

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Oh and it drains more than punches too

 

[azontr]

I don't see how knowing that Yu has better perception helps him circumvent it. Using kicks would just leave him open instead of limiting Yu's range, Yu can just dodge past them, and if he gets on the ground, all Yu has to do is just... not follow him. Ayanokouji trying to use MMA or smth just gives Yu time to breathe. Neither of these strategies really do anything except leave Kouji vulnerable by having him make bigger motions and have him use ground-based styles against someone who'd never follow him to the ground. If anything dodging kicks would be easier since the wider motions makes it simpler to get out of the way beforehand and save his stamina.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I don't see how knowing that Yu has better perception helps him circumvent it.

I am just saying that he will realize it and opt for a different approach, he will also know that he has low stamina from observing him, which will make Ayanokouji come up with a method that drains his stamina

and if he gets on the ground, all Yu has to do is just... not follow him. Ayanokouji trying to use MMA or smth just gives Yu time to breathe.

Not really? Ground MA doesn't make you immobile, he will just try to grab Yu from extremely low angles close to the ground that will hinder his punching range and if he goes for it anyway, Koji can block or dodge

have him use ground-based styles against someone who'd never follow him to the ground.

He doesn't need too, Koji can just try to grab his legs anyway

If anything dodging kicks would be easier since the wider motions makes it simpler to get out of the way beforehand and save his stamina.

Stamina is a non issue for Koji when he can remain active for 14 days non stop, can't say the same for Yu though

 

[XxZetsuxX]

As for kicks, what you said may be true for normal kicks, but iirc there are low kicks (i think they were called leg sweeps?) and other kicks of this manner

 

[RoggerReggor]

Kiyotaka rarely uses kicks in fights where he knows his openings can be exploited (seen in vs Ryuuen and his gang in Y1V7 and in vs Tsukishiro and Shiba in Y2V4).

If anything, I am certain that considering the abilities of both the characters to make proper evades, dodges and even discerning feints from their own intelligence, neither of them are getting hit.

They would be throwing punches at each other till they tire each other out, which here, comes down to a fight of attrition and stamina, both of which are something which Kiyotaka slams in.

Plus, unless Yu figures out how he will hit Kiyotaka going against his "not even Analytical Prediction" kind of Analytical Prediction (technically foresight in outsmarting terms), he is just getting tired against time. With that, Kiyotaka would try to find openings as well, while not creating any of his own (massively higher intelligence, battle intelligence both narrative and feat wise and having actual combat tactician feats).

Once Yu's stamina limit is hit, he is bound to lose the fluidity in his movements, and will make openings which Kiyotaka will exploit.

So yeah, Kiyotaka stamina-diffs.

Edit: Unmentioned, but Kiyotaka FRA and for what I think as well. I don't see a possible scenario where Yu wins unless Kiyotaka is having a bad day.

 

[azontr]

Since the debate is apparently still going, I'll just dismantle this.

My bad, I thought we were talking about this.
I agree that his will initially trip up koji and let Yu get a few in. But that'll only work for a couple of hits.
I can't see even this being a problem once Ayanokoji's adapted to Yu.

After seeing it once Ayanokoji will understand that Ryu's style lets Yu switch change from one technique to another without losing any power.
This like every other technique Ayanokoji has will only be a problem for the first 2-3 minutes because after he's adapted.

Once he's adapted he'll have such a thorough understanding of Yu's psychology and fighting style that he'll know what attack Yu is gonna use and what attack he'll switch to if he engages him with a specific guard, having countermeasures ready to catch/evade the strike.

This once again doesn't take into account Yu's own ability to adapt. The better Kouji gets the more information that is going to feed to Yu to make him more skilled and precise. No matter how good of an understanding he has of Yu's psychology, Yu has no habits, no timing, and no psychological tells that would let Kouji deduce anything.

Yes he has insane athleticism that allowed him to master techniques on a level beyond Jean despite not needing to train as much as him, but he had to train to some level before he got to that level.

No, he didn't. It's stated several times that he was the most skilled from the get-go, that he was in a different dimension from the beginning and that he was born naturally with the skills most would obtain from years of hard work. If anything, K actively discourages Yu to train his technique because he wants Yu to his own natural abilities and not be limited by a standard style. The only time he has ever trained technique is to learn dura neg against Aaron, but that's it.

Does this work:
Horikita is a black belt in Karate and Aikido and Ibuki is a skilled enough user of Capoeira that she can match Horikita. These two together were able to defeat Ichika (a 5th gen WR student) in a 2v1 that was very close, after the fight it's revealed that Ichika was HEAVILY injured (She was injured so badly Horikta and Ibuki were surprised that she was even able to stand let alone fight) during that fight.

So, it takes two skilled martial artists to match a barely standing 5th gen WR student.

Then there is horikita's brother Manabu. Who is a 5th dan black belt in both Karate and Aikido. He while blinded blocked an attack from Ryuuen, a self taught martial artist who's unique style was praised by Ayanokoji himself. On manabu's profile this feat is listed as Enhansed Senses but that's an error, Ayanokoji stated that the attack was 'predicted' not 'sensed'. So Manabu's ANPR is so good he effortlessly predicted and blocked the attack of a skilled fighter he had never interacted before while he couldn't see.

Ichika's ANPR far upscales Manabu.

Yagami is another 5th gen WR student, one who outperforms Ichika in everything. She has absolutely NO CHANCE against this guy.

Yagami is inferior to the high performing students of WR's 4th gen such as Yuki in skill.

The high performing students of the WR get stomped by Shiro who vastly out skills all of them in combat skill.

Shiro is out skilled by the WR instructors.

The WR instructors are inferior to the 6 guys who were brought to fight 9 y/o Ayanokoji and got neg-diffed.

Tsukishiro (a trained assassin) is above far the 6 guys both physically and in terms of skill. Shiba is in the same league as Tsukishiro. Both of whom couldn't lay a finger on 16 y/o Ayanokoji in a 2v1 while he was dehydrated, sleep deprived for three days.

The prediction feats are the only thing that really matters here since being able to defeat skilled fighters is basically the bottom rung of the ladder in The Boxer, and the average genius can do that without any training or practice, and Yu is so far beyond all of them combined that he was visualized as a giant monster looking down on a tiny mountain in comparison to how skilled he was in comparison. His skill is literally beyond the physical ideal of movement that can be achieved by a human being even if they gained control of every muscle fiber, of every heartbeat, and even ever firing of their neurons, to the point he is considered on a different realm from even that. Even people who have trained to surpass their biological skill limits still aren't as skilled as Yu when he isn't applying any effort.

 

[azontr]

Not really? Ground MA doesn't make you immobile, he will just try to grab Yu from extremely low angles close to the ground that will hinder his punching range and if he goes for it anyway, Koji can block or dodge

He doesn't need too, Koji can just try to grab his legs anyway

He can't, he's slower, less skilled, and Yu only gets faster and faster as the fight continues.

Stamina is a non issue for Koji when he can remain active for 14 days non stop, can't say the same for Yu though

Not what I said. I said Kouji resorting to kicks just allows Yu to save his OWN stamina, dodging wide kicks is easier than dodging a continuous flurry of blows at close range. The outlasting strategy can't work if Kouji resorts to this.

So yeah, Kiyotaka stamina-diffs.

I've already explained how this doesn't work, Yu can just cut one of his vital points and let him bleed, and if he tries to grapple or kick then he's still just wasting stamina while allowing Yu to recover his.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He can't, he's slower, less skilled, and Yu only gets faster and faster as the fight continues.

Getting faster is irrelevant considering the more he moves the more tired he becomes

Not what I said. I said Kouji resorting to kicks just allows Yu to save his OWN stamina, dodging wide kicks is easier than dodging a continuous flurry of blows at close range. The outlasting strategy can't work if Kouji resorts to this.

He can do this using ground MA, he can keep pressuring him easily

 

[Foriaa]

Kiyotaka rarely uses kicks in fights where he knows his openings can be exploited (seen in vs Ryuuen and his gang in Y1V7 and in vs Tsukishiro and Shiba in Y2V4).

If anything, I am certain that considering the abilities of both the characters to make proper evades, dodges and even discerning feints from their own intelligence, neither of them are getting hit.

No one here actually made an argument as to why Koji can consistently dodge Yu's hits, saying neither of them gets hit only works if you think that they're somehow equal in prediction trades (one of them has 12x perceptions, 20% higher speeds and resistance to anpr).

 

[Foriaa]

Getting faster is irrelevant considering the more he moves the more tired he becomes

The faster he moves, the higher the likelyhood his wincons go through (pp shots to the liver/chin to ko)

 

[azontr]

Getting faster is irrelevant considering the more he moves the more tired he becomes

What? Getting faster just means he can consistently land more direct hits on Kouji's vitals, which makes it easier for him to win. If he gets faster than any argument you made about Kouji being able to block, dodge, or reduce the damage becomes nil.

He can do this using ground MA, he can keep pressuring him easily

So he's just going to crawl on the ground the entire time? How does this help him? Yu just recovers his stamina by simply having to backpedal to escape him.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

What? Getting faster just means he can consistently land more direct hits on Kouji's vitals, which makes it easier for him to win. If he gets faster than any argument you made about Kouji being able to block, dodge, or reduce the damage becomes nil.

If Ayanokouji knows he just hits the face like you imply he will do, it just becomes moot, Ayanokouji just blocks his fast whenever he thinks Yu is going to attack

I am not even sure if Yu's ANPR resistence bypasses intuition tbf, considering boxers don't use intuition to predict

So he's just going to crawl on the ground the entire time? How does this help him? Yu just recovers his stamina by simply having to backpedal to escape him.

he can kick the ground for a explosive dash, not necessarely crawl

 

[Foriaa]

If Ayanokouji knows he just hits the face like you imply he will do, it just becomes moot, Ayanokouji just blocks his fast whenever he thinks Yu is going to attack

Due to the superior perceptions, Yu will notice that Koji's trying to block and adjust. Him having a baseline 20% speed advantage + the added perceptions should allow for this shots to hit, and if they don't, his limited dura neg will let him drill through.

 

[azontr]

If Ayanokouji knows he just hits the face like you imply he will do, it just becomes moot, Ayanokouji just blocks his fast whenever he thinks Yu is going to attack

I am not even sure if Yu's ANPR resistence bypasses intuition tbf, considering boxers don't use intuition to predict

Can you show me feats of Kouji ever doing this against someone with a significant speed gap? It doesn't matter if you know it's coming if you can't dodge it. Also, Kouji's intuitive prediction is not some kind of supernatural intuition that let's him know anything, he needs to utilize prior knowledge, he only ever utilized this "intuition" by analyzing the way someone moves.

he can kick the ground for a explosive dash, not necessarely crawl

Yu just side-steps it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I've already explained how this doesn't work, Yu can just cut one of his vital points and let him bleed, and if he tries to grapple or kick then he's still just wasting stamina while allowing Yu to recover his.

Yeah, I can see that, but unless he has a way of going against "intuition" (literally not even a mental cognitive parameter) or Kiyotaka's metacognition embedded into the levels of others' combat where he discerns their movements based on the limits of their abilities, or a way where he can increase his own speed, how does he even touch Kiyotaka to do this?

No one here actually made an argument as to why Koji can consistently dodge Yu's hits, saying neither of them gets hit only works if you think that they're somehow equal in prediction trades (one of them has 12x perceptions, 20% higher speeds and resistance to anpr).

Well then, in Y2V4, Kiyotaka kept on dodging numerous strikes from Tsubasa Nanase for a large amount of time, he literally just dodged her (she also scales to Athletic stamina and can almost match the ratings of characters who scale to Peak human in-verse stamina wise). In fact, she LITERALLY just had to get on ground because he made her so OUT OF STAMINA.

YES, no kicking, punching or any sort of attacks, only DODGING made him win a combat. So yes, he can CONSISTENTLY dodge anyone if HE CAN.

Kiyotaka widely outshines Yu in "prediction" (I don't even call it prediction at this point, but just foresight by outsmarting metrics), not only does Kiyotaka rely on a non-cognitive method for prediction (intuition), but also, his cognitive parameter for discerning paths is through the corporation of his own metacognition and thinking into the upper limits of the abilities of his opponents, both of which are written on his profile.

The only thing Yu counters in Kiyotaka's "Analytical Prediction" is him analyzing micromovements and patterns, both of which he doesn't even originally do and is just a thing probably made up by boys to add to his prediction arsenal. But yes, Kiyotaka heavily and directly COUNTERS the methodology Yu uses to resist prediction in itself.

Perception helps Yu to dodge attacks, so yes, it's useful.

Higher speeds by 20% only helps in narrow attacks, Kiyotaka, a fighter heavily rooted in analysis, would be very early to notice that his opponent is faster. In fact, Kiyotaka doesn't even throw attacks or just leaves them incomplete once he knows that his opponent hasn't left an opening.

 

[azontr]

Yeah, I can see that, but unless he has a way of going against "intuition" (literally not even a mental cognitive parameter) or Kiyotaka's metacognition embedded into the levels of others' combat where he discerns their movements based on the limits of their abilities, or a way where he can increase his own speed, how does he even touch Kiyotaka to do this?

Kouji's intuition does not even literally show him anything intuitively. The feat of him using analytical prediction via this literally involves him coming to a conclusion via physical movements. He's not receiving revelations from God. This is supreme tier wank.

 

[azontr]

Like, bruh, this is NOT helping him against Yu unless his intuition guides him through every single attack, but again, even this "intuitive" prediction still relies on physical factors to function.


And if it's about intuition, then even the average genius in the Boxer instinctively knows the best way to move, hit and dodge, so again, how does this help?

 

[Foriaa]

Well then, in Y2V4, Kiyotaka kept on dodging numerous strikes from Tsubasa Nanase for a large amount of time, he literally just dodged her (she also scales to Athletic stamina and can almost match the ratings of characters who scale to Peak human in-verse stamina wise). In fact, she LITERALLY just had to get on ground because he made her so OUT OF STAMINA.
YES, no kicking, punching or any sort of attacks, only DODGING made him win a combat. So yes, he can CONSISTENTLY dodge anyone if HE CAN.

Does Nanase have :

• 12.7x perception advantage
• 20.% baseline speed advantage
• resistance to ANPR
• Yu's level of ANPR
• Dura neg

If not, I fail to see why this should be used as an example for why he can dodge attacks from Yu? All does is prove this dude can outlast people probably inferior to him.

Kiyotaka widely outshines Yu in "prediction" (I don't even call it prediction at this point, but just foresight by outsmarting metrics), not only does Kiyotaka rely on a non-cognitive method for prediction (intuition), but also, his cognitive parameter for discerning paths is through the corporation of his own metacognition and thinking into the upper limits of the abilities of his opponents, both of which are written on his profile.

The only thing Yu counters in Kiyotaka's "Analytical Prediction" is him analyzing micromovements and patterns, both of which he doesn't even originally do and is just a thing probably made up by boys to add to his prediction arsenal. But yes, Kiyotaka heavily and directly COUNTERS the methodology Yu uses to resist prediction in itself.

Provide proof that this lets him overcome someone with the advantages that Yu has in this fight, listed above.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Kouji's intuition does not even literally show him anything intuitively. The feat of him using analytical prediction via this literally involves him coming to a conclusion via physical movements. He's not receiving revelations from God. This is supreme tier wank.

It's not supreme tier wank lmfao, you just don't like him get scaled higher than you think he should.

Characters like Ichika already have feats where she made it apparent that she was trying to memorize Ibuki's attack patterns, giving her feats for pattern reading, and Ibuki then completely changed her attack trajectory, but Ichika still predicted it exactly and Suzune herself regarded her intuition as "unfathomable":

In her fight with Suzune, she was able to completely out-predict her. In the volleyball match of Year 2 Sports Festival, it was revealed that Ichika possessed an incredible adaptability and intuition, it was even confirmed that Amasawa's intuition was unfathomable. She herself made it clear that she was memorizing the attack patterns of her opponents and could predict their next moves, to the point where her intuition helped her to predict the trajectory of the ball even when Ibuki tried to completely change her attack patterns, Suzune confirmed that she had indeed predicted it and knew exactly where the ball would land.

Kiyotaka in Y2V4 also out-predicted Shiba and Tsukishiro's series of attacks and made precise movements to avoid them himself as well.

While yes, it might seem absurd for a character to have combat foresight or even their basic thinking supported by intuition, there are numerous popular smart characters who do that as well, like Osamu Dazai (Bungou Stray Dogs) for combat and L Lawliet (in Death Note CTW timelines). L in fact, is even referred to as "God's intuition". So yes, while he certainly isn't receiving some data from God, you can say his intuition is "God-level", and narratively, scales massively above the likes of Ichika.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

12.7x perception advantage

Doesn't effect Koji's ability to dodge

20.% baseline speed advantage

As discussed Ad Nauseam this isn't an overwhelming advantage

resistance to ANPR

Kiyotaka widely outshines Yu in "prediction" (I don't even call it prediction at this point, but just foresight by outsmarting metrics), not only does Kiyotaka rely on a non-cognitive method for prediction (intuition), but also, his cognitive parameter for discerning paths is through the corporation of his own metacognition and thinking into the upper limits of the abilities of his opponents, both of which are written on his profile.

The only thing Yu counters in Kiyotaka's "Analytical Prediction" is him analyzing micromovements and patterns, both of which he doesn't even originally do and is just a thing probably made up by boys to add to his prediction arsenal. But yes, Kiyotaka heavily and directly COUNTERS the methodology Yu uses to resist prediction in itself.

^^^

Yu's level of ANPR

Koji's adaptability is definitely stronger than Yu's ANPR so however much Yu is analyzing Koji he is adapting his fighting in real time even faster.

Dura neg

Again doesn't effect Koji's ability to dodge.

If not, I fail to see why this should be used as an example for why he can dodge attacks from Yu? All does is prove this dude can outlast people probably inferior to him.

The Nanase example isn't to say Koji fought someone who is relative to Yu, but that she has similar stamina to him and was able to tire her out by dodging without any difficulty. The point is he can and would do the same to Yu without issue. Yu's biggest advantage is that 1.2x speed and given Koji's fighting style that is negligible. So Koji winning via stamina is the most likely outcome.

 

[Foriaa]

Last time responding here since this shit is getting circular

As discussed Ad Nauseam this isn't an overwhelming advantage

Not one soul said it was a overwhelming advantage, as I said above, my point is that the advantage is there, just not to blitz, which isn't at all needed.

Kiyotaka widely outshines Yu in "prediction" (I don't even call it prediction at this point, but just foresight by outsmarting metrics), not only does Kiyotaka rely on a non-cognitive method for prediction (intuition), but also, his cognitive parameter for discerning paths is through the corporation of his own metacognition and thinking into the upper limits of the abilities of his opponents, both of which are written on his profile.

How are we saying in the same breath that Koji has a non-cognitive prediction that surpasses Yu's, when Yu doesn't have one like that at all? What is being compared here? Yu has resistance to being read, that's all.

Koji's adaptability is definitely stronger than Yu's ANPR so however much Yu is analyzing Koji he is adapting his fighting in real time even faster.

Provide evidence.

Again doesn't effect Koji's ability to dodge.

Re read this thread please.

The Nanase example isn't to say Koji fought someone who is relative to Yu, but that she has similar stamina to him and was able to tire her out by dodging without any difficulty. The point is he can and would do the same to Yu without issue. Yu's biggest advantage is that 1.2x speed and given Koji's fighting style that is negligible. So Koji winning via stamina is the most likely outcome.

Read above.

 

[azontr]

Characters like Ichika already have feats where she made it apparent that she was trying to memorize Ibuki's attack patterns, giving her feats for pattern reading, and Ibuki then completely changed her attack trajectory, but Ichika still predicted it exactly and Suzune herself regarded her intuition as "unfathomable":

While yes, it might seem absurd for a character to have combat foresight or even their basic thinking supported by intuition, there are numerous popular smart characters who do that as well, like Osamu Dazai (Bungou Stray Dogs) for combat and L Lawliet (in Death Note CTW timelines). L in fact, is even referred to as "God's intuition". So yes, while he certainly isn't receiving some data from God, you can say his intuition is "God-level", and narratively, scales massively above the likes of Ichika.

This is low-tier stuff in the Boxer. Even the average genius completely transcends having patterns, as even the weakest Boxer predicts stuff based on habits, rhythm, and patterns. This isn't particularly impressive in of itself beyond the word "unfathomable" being used. I'm not saying it's impossible to have intuitive prediction— I'm saying Kouji's is bad.

Doesn't effect Koji's ability to dodge

It affects Kouji's ability to hit Yu, which he can't.

As discussed Ad Nauseam this isn't an overwhelming advantage

Are you just going to ignore the fact that Yu constantly gets faster over and over, or are you going to actually acknowledge it?

Koji's adaptability is definitely stronger than Yu's ANPR so however much Yu is analyzing Koji he is adapting his fighting in real time even faster.

HOW is it stronger? Yu can copy entire fighting styles with a glance and master them with no prior training, reaching his level of skill just by witnessing a single move executed, meanwhile Kouji had to train and adapt over thousands of fights. Please actually address the arguments instead of cherry-picking.

Again doesn't effect Koji's ability to dodge.

He can't, he's significantly slower and less skilled.

The Nanase example isn't to say Koji fought someone who is relative to Yu, but that she has similar stamina to him and was able to tire her out by dodging without any difficulty. The point is he can and would do the same to Yu without issue. Yu's biggest advantage is that 1.2x speed and given Koji's fighting style that is negligible. So Koji winning via stamina is the most likely outcome.

Yu literally has every single advantage you would need in a fist fight. His perception speed allows him to easily dodge every attack and his combat speed continuously grows even if you don't push him. The longer Kouji tries to last the better Yu gets and the easier it is to strike significant vital points or make Kouji bleed out with a slashing attack.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Does Nanase have :

• 12.7x perception advantage
• 20.% baseline speed advantage
• resistance to ANPR
• Yu's level of ANPR
• Dura neg

If not, I fail to see why this should be used as an example for why he can dodge attacks from Yu? All does is prove this dude can outlast people probably inferior to him.

Provide proof that this lets him overcome someone with the advantages that Yu has in this fight, listed above.

Perception advantage, Yu's level of AnPr help in dodging attacks.

Resistance to AnPr, Speed Advantage and Dura Neg help in landing attacks.

All of this is true, but all I was saying was that he can DODGE attacks if HE CAN, I am not comparing Nanase to Yu, but yes, Nanase certainly arguably does have higher stamina than Yu, which supports my argument upon yours where you ask me if he can CONSISTENTLY dodge attacks due to stamina.

The advantages are something which needn't be countered for the most part. All the things helping in dodging attacks doesn't help Yu if Kiyotaka isn't idiotic enough to try landing attacks first himself. Kiyotaka is a character who didn't land a single attack in a fight against Tsukishiro and Shiba.

Instead, you are required to prove how Yu somehow goes against Kiyotaka's foresight.

Like, bruh, this is NOT helping him against Yu unless his intuition guides him through every single attack, but again, even this "intuitive" prediction still relies on physical factors to function.


And if it's about intuition, then even the average genius in the Boxer instinctively knows the best way to move, hit and dodge, so again, how does this help?

Instincts work differently from intuition.

Instincts carry some parameters which can count as cognitive, intuition doesn't include a single one.

Kiyotaka relies on an ability called as understanding the limits of another character and integrating his own thinking to predict their movements. That is, if they reveal their abilities. If they do not, Kiyotaka starts to rely on his intuition to simply make out their physical abilities. So you are completely wrong there in the way that his intuition makes way for his discernment of the physical abilities, and not the physical abilities making room for intuition.

Intuition, in itself, has no logic, it becomes abductive or inductive reasoning-based thinking if they even have some point of logic.

 

[Phoenks]

Wow, that was quite an insane read.

So anyway, I'm voting Yu.

The stamina argument is pretty irrelevant when Yu will:

1. See Koji in slow motion due to 13x perception speed advantage, which thus allows him to assess his stance and openings far more efficiently than what Ayanokoji could hope to do back to him. Off of this one point alone I can pretty much guarantee that any of Yu's first attacks will land. Even being charitable to Ayanokoji and saying they are on the same level of analytical skill, Yu would have a sizable advantage in the amount of effective time he has to analyze Koji due to that massive difference in their perceptions. Such that it is outright just dishonest to say Koji would be able to outreach that advantage through his sheer 'skill' or whatever. And that's being charitable, since even Yu's Start of Series feats far outclass anything Ayanokoji or any other COTE characters have on their pages.

2. Immediately strike him at a weak point with his piercing punches which drill through an opponent's body and thus negate durability to a limited extent. This renders the durability and RAHH STAMINA points pretty much worthless. If he hits Ayanokoji in the head a single time, that's the end of the fight. If he hits him in the liver, that's the end of the fight. Now imagine if he gets multiple hits in? Ayanokoji's "SUPERNATURAL WILLPOWER" isn't going to stop his brain and organs from getting drilled through. Realistically, this fight isn't even lasting longer than at most a few minutes. And to be honest, that's being extremely charitable to Koji.

To say Koji wins this fight you basically just have to bet on Koji not getting hit at all, even though that's pretty much impossible because he is not monstrously more skilled and he's slower in both body and mind. And literally one hit from Yu would realistically be where this bout stops because his attacks just go through his defenses. Even if Koji blocks an attack he's still getting hit through his body by that attack.

It's incredibly dishonest to say that Koji just dodges everything when he is not only physically slower, but won't even be able to keep pace with the analysis of someone who is seeing him in slow motion. Every single second to Koji is 13 to Yu.

 

[azontr]

The advantages are something which needn't be countered for the most part. All the things helping in dodging attacks doesn't help Yu if Kiyotaka isn't idiotic enough to try landing attacks first himself. Kiyotaka is a character who didn't land a single attack in a fight against Tsukishiro and Shiba.

What exactly is your point, then? That he won't try to hit Yu? If he doesn't initiate an attack then Yu has no reason to either, he's perfectly willing to let his opponent engage first if need be.

Kiyotaka relies on an ability called as understanding the limits of another character and integrating his own thinking to predict their movements. That is, if they reveal their abilities. If they do not, Kiyotaka starts to rely on his intuition to simply make out their physical abilities. So you are completely wrong there in the way that his intuition makes way for his discernment of the physical abilities, and not the physical abilities making room for intuition.

What does this even mean, though? To understand the limits of someone you inevitably have to rely on and analyze physical parameters, which Kouji can't do to Yu because he resists it. Kouji's "cognition" doesn't counter Yu unless you actually explain it beyond giving vague ideas of some higher string of thought Kouji uses to predict moves.

 

[RoggerReggor]

You are simply punching the wall if you think that everything I write is supposed to be made to be shown below The Boxer levels.

This is low-tier stuff in the Boxer. Even the average genius completely transcends having patterns, as even the weakest Boxer predicts stuff based on habits, rhythm, and patterns. This isn't particularly impressive in of itself beyond the word "unfathomable" being used. I'm not saying it's impossible to have intuitive prediction— I'm saying Kouji's is bad.

It affects Kouji's ability to hit Yu, which he can't.

And how do you say Kiyotaka's intuition is bad?

By the way, I am not saying that both Ichika and Kiyotaka rely on the same methodology using intuition (they don't). I am just elucidating examples against your argument which roughly came down to me as the verse not having enough intuitive stretches.

Intuition in itself cannot be made out to have an extent, it can only be compared using achievements, which here, Kiyotaka and the verse in itself, give you enough to be reliant on them.

Are you just going to ignore the fact that Yu constantly gets faster over and over, or are you going to actually acknowledge it?

HOW is it stronger? Yu can copy entire fighting styles with a glance and master them with no prior training, reaching his level of skill just by witnessing a single move executed, meanwhile Kouji had to train and adapt over thousands of fights. Please actually address the arguments instead of cherry-picking.

Getting faster is definitely a very large dent on Kiyotaka's any advantage he has in this, but by what degree? If he doesn't get faster by like 2 folds in a matter of a few minutes, then I don't see how it helps him. Getting faster also makes him lose more stamina.

I don't care if Yu can copy someone's baking skill or fighting skill. It doesn't matter. Kiyotaka simply has learnt so much in his life that he wouldn't even be able to show all of it for Yu to copy.

He can't, he's significantly slower and less skilled.

He isn't less skilled. Skill levels in COTE don't work like The Boxer where there's only a single martial art so analyzing skills becomes easier. COTE has a large variety of martial arts and honestly, I don't think how either of them are somehow better than the other.

Skills are something which I wouldn't even want to argue, to be honest. Skills start to matter only when your fighter is potent enough of touching their opponent.

Yu literally has every single advantage you would need in a fist fight. His perception speed allows him to easily dodge every attack and his combat speed continuously grows even if you don't push him. The longer Kouji tries to last the better Yu gets and the easier it is to strike significant vital points or make Kouji bleed out with a slashing attack.

Yeah, and I don't disagree with any of this. I wouldn't even bring skills or this sort of advantages into play if I know neither of them are touching the other.

 

[RoggerReggor]

What exactly is your point, then? That he won't try to hit Yu? If he doesn't initiate an attack then Yu has no reason to either, he's perfectly willing to let his opponent engage first if need be.

Both are in character but willing to kill.

While yes, both are hollow characters, Kiyotaka outshines Yu in his restraints (White Room narratives). Kiyotaka throws feints and incomplete attacks in the middle of fight as well. It's not like he would just stand in his place when I say that he wouldn't throw an attack.

Outsmarting and luring is Kiyotaka's forte; he can both socially influence Yu enough with his own willingness to kill and murderous intent and not barge all in by himself.

What does this even mean, though? To understand the limits of someone you inevitably have to rely on and analyze physical parameters, which Kouji can't do to Yu because he resists it. Kouji's "cognition" doesn't counter Yu unless you actually explain it beyond giving vague ideas of some higher string of thought Kouji uses to predict moves.

Yes, he has to rely on physical parameters to understand their limits.

AND he uses his intuition to guess make these physical parameters out by himself.

I am using the intuition argument only to make it clear that Yu's resistance to bodily analysis doesn't make him less susceptible to Kiyotaka's foresight. Kiyotaka's intuition just serves as a backup in fights mainly, this time, he would have to use this BACKUP in this fight.

 

[azontr]

And how do you say Kiyotaka's intuition is bad?

By the way, I am not saying that both Ichika and Kiyotaka rely on the same methodology using intuition (they don't). I am just elucidating examples against your argument which roughly came down to me as the verse not having enough intuitive stretches.

Intuition in itself cannot be made out to have an extent, it can only be compared using achievements, which here, Kiyotaka and the verse in itself, give you enough to be reliant on them.

What? I really don't know what you're talking about. Intuition can't have an extent??

Getting faster is definitely a very large dent on Kiyotaka's any advantage he has in this, but by what degree? If he doesn't get faster by like 2 folds in a matter of a few minutes, then I don't see how it helps him. Getting faster also makes him lose more stamina.

It's on his profile. His talent goes beyond Yuto's, who could continuously close the gap between himself and Yu (who was blitzing him over and over) and his growth rate was akin to him learning how to fight for the first time, and that was before Yuto's awakening where he started growing by the second. Yu also grows blitz gaps in moments if pushed.

don't care if Yu can copy someone's baking skill or fighting skill. It doesn't matter. Kiyotaka simply has learnt so much in his life that he wouldn't even be able to show all of it for Yu to copy.

Mastering a single style to the extent that Yu has with no effort, no training, no drive or desire to learn, is infinitely more impressive than learning multiple styles over any period of time. Kouji had to train, practice, and study. Yu had to do nothing but exist, and he became as skilled as he is basically on accident. There is no comparison here.

He isn't less skilled. Skill levels in COTE don't work like The Boxer where there's only a single martial art so analyzing skills becomes easier. COTE has a large variety of martial arts and honestly, I don't think how either of them are somehow better than the other.

Skills are something which I wouldn't even want to argue, to be honest. Skills start to matter only when your fighter is potent enough of touching their opponent.

Knowing more martial arts doesn't make you more skilled. If anything, not spending your time refining a single discipline in comparison to wasting it mastering multiple disciplines makes you less skilled. Listen to Bruce Lee, a single kick practiced endlessly is better than mastering countless kicks.

Yeah, and I don't disagree with any of this. I wouldn't even bring skills or this sort of advantages into play if I know neither of them are touching the other

Yu CAN touch Kouji, though. He has every skill and tool he needs to consistently hit Kouji.

Both are in character but willing to kill.

While yes, both are hollow characters, Kiyotaka outshines Yu in his restraints (White Room narratives). Kiyotaka throws feints and incomplete attacks in the middle of fight as well. It's not like he would just stand in his place when I say that he wouldn't throw an attack.

Outsmarting and luring is Kiyotaka's forte; he can both socially influence Yu enough with his own willingness to kill and murderous intent and not barge all in by himself.

Yu doesn't have "murderous intent" though. Taking a life means nothing to him, there's no bloodlust, it's all just a means to an end. There's nothing that Kouji could say or do to get Yu to attack first or bait him. Yu's perception speed is so much higher that a false attack also wouldn't work, Yu has negged feints in story before.

Yes, he has to rely on physical parameters to understand their limits.

AND he uses his intuition to guess make these physical parameters out by himself.

I am using the intuition argument only to make it clear that Yu's resistance to bodily analysis doesn't make him less susceptible to Kiyotaka's foresight. Kiyotaka's intuition just serves as a backup in fights mainly, this time, he would have to use this BACKUP in this fight.

Okay, even IF I assume that Kouji's intuition is at all an advantage in this fight, he would have to be using it for every action, every thought, every move. He would have to basically stop thinking and surrender to intuition for it to matter.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

YU FRA

 

[RoggerReggor]

What? I really don't know what you're talking about. Intuition can't have an extent??

Intuition doesn't have logic. You can sometimes have intuition on levels where you predict almost everything and times where you don't do anything. So yes, intuition doesn't have an extent. Average intuition (basically an average of feats of intuition) does, which is extremely high for Kiyotaka in combat, not in general intelligence though, since he's demonstrated to be heavily logic reliant there.

Intuition can be compared through achievements without someone needing to touch its extent which is not defined by anything. You don't need your neurons to fire in a specific way to make intuitive guesses. It's not bound by logic, and therefore, doesn't have a defined extent.

It's on his profile. His talent goes beyond Yuto's, who could continuously close the gap between himself and Yu (who was blitzing him over and over) and his growth rate was akin to him learning how to fight for the first time, and that was before Yuto's awakening where he started growing by the second. Yu also grows blitz gaps in moments if pushed.

I am not even saying that this is wrong lmfao, I have read the manhwa myself as well.

The scan itself mentions that he increases his own abilities using information from his opponents, and it makes it clear that his increasing abilities are a result of his need to adapt, and it doesn't matter here because he's already faster. While yes, I don't disagree that his speed would increase with time in this fight as well, his natural adaptation wouldn't kick in to make it rapid.

If Yu simply had his abilities increasing that rapidly in a passive manner, we could have at least had a City Level Yu by the end of the series.

Mastering a single style to the extent that Yu has with no effort, no training, no drive or desire to learn, is infinitely more impressive than learning multiple styles over any period of time. Kouji had to train, practice, and study. Yu had to do nothing but exist, and he became as skilled as he is basically on accident. There is no comparison here.

Doesn't mean anything. Kiyotaka is worse than any character if just came down to this "natural learning" talent. Learning Ability includes both normal natural learning (illogical grasping) and consolidation.

Kiyotaka's consolidation allows him to refine his skills in a much more definitive manner, in that, it doesn't apply to only combat. But yes, I am not arguing either is better in any way though lmfao. That was never the point.

Knowing more martial arts doesn't make you more skilled. If anything, not spending your time refining a single discipline in comparison to wasting it mastering multiple disciplines makes you less skilled. Listen to Bruce Lee, a single kick practiced endlessly is better than mastering countless kicks.

LMFAOOO.

Am I saying that knowing more martial arts makes you better? No. I am saying that skills in COTE work differently than The Boxer. Yu doesn't

Plus, yes, just so you don't know, Kiyotaka took 5 years to learn numerous martial arts, overpower his own instructors which narratively are professionals and go to top world levels, almost all from the age of 4 to 9, then he went on to get even better with time. ALL of this happened to him at the age of 9.

Yes, Kiyotaka isn't a natural genius like Yu, but crazily enough, his adaptability goes beyond Yu in that he is reliant solely on his adaptability, and if he wasn't ever trained, he would have ended up as just an above average individual (even mentioned in the series).

And yes, I would like to make it clear here for the last time, I hate to go in circles, and my first argument is about them being able to touch one another, skills, techniques and all other crap comes later.

Yu CAN touch Kouji, though. He has every skill and tool he needs to consistently hit Kouji.

You are yet to prove that how Yu's highly conventional analytical prediction resistance does negate any of the non-cognition related approaches which Kiyotaka can take. Kiyotaka is above Yu's methodology of predictions in nature itself.

Yu doesn't have "murderous intent" though. Taking a life means nothing to him, there's no bloodlust, it's all just a means to an end. There's nothing that Kouji could say or do to get Yu to attack first or bait him. Yu's perception speed is so much higher that a false attack also wouldn't work, Yu has negged feints in story before.

I am not even saying that he does have murderous intent, it's just that Kiyotaka's murderous intent involves him socially influencing characters in unrealistic means where he can cause them to be nearly paralyzed in a fight (vs Nagumo in Y2V4), or against Hirata in Y1V11 where he made him confess his deepest darkest secrets.

He can literally change Yu's mood, and at the very least, cause him irritability to higher points.

Okay, even IF I assume that Kouji's intuition is at all an advantage in this fight, he would have to be using it for every action, every thought, every move. He would have to basically stop thinking and surrender to intuition for it to matter.

You are still just misunderstanding his ability.

I never said he will use intuition to completely go in the fight and do only intuition. He would use it only for the determination of Yu's extent of abilities and then would use his prime methodology of using upper limits to foresee. If you read the scan which you sent, completely, you would see it.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Leaning towards Yu for Azontr's and Phoenks reasons.

Both are Taskmaster victims tho.

 

[azontr]

Intuition doesn't have logic. You can sometimes have intuition on levels where you predict almost everything and times where you don't do anything. So yes, intuition doesn't have an extent. Average intuition (basically an average of feats of intuition) does, which is extremely high for Kiyotaka in combat, not in general intelligence though, since he's demonstrated to be heavily logic reliant there.

Intuition can be compared through achievements without someone needing to touch its extent which is not defined by anything. You don't need your neurons to fire in a specific way to make intuitive guesses. It's not bound by logic, and therefore, doesn't have a defined extent.

This still doesn't make sense and is a No Limits Fallacy. Every ability has an extent. Kouji's intuition won't allow him to anticipate everything simply because you can't measure intuition in a standard way.

The scan itself mentions that he increases his own abilities using information from his opponents, and it makes it clear that his increasing abilities are a result of his need to adapt, and it doesn't matter here because he's already faster. While yes, I don't disagree that his speed would increase with time in this fight as well, his natural adaptation wouldn't kick in to make it rapid.

If Yu simply had his abilities increasing that rapidly in a passive manner, we could have at least had a City Level Yu by the end of the series.

This is a strawman. Just because he hasn't reached city level or any higher tiers doesn't mean his growth isn't rapid or constant, not every series portrays growth like Garou or some shit where they grow a dozen tiers. The scan also doesn't make any of that clear, "using information from opponents" to grow is something you made up unless you're talking about his analytical prediction. We've seen instances of Yu simply growing even when he doesn't need to put in any effort, he got sharper from fighting Yuto and Yuto didn't even make him try.

Am I saying that knowing more martial arts makes you better? No. I am saying that skills in COTE work differently than The Boxer. Yu doesn't

No, they don't work differently. Martial arts skill is martial arts skill no matter what verse it comes from, it's not like skill in COTE is some kind of power system. Don't make things up to tip-toe around the skill argument.

Plus, yes, just so you don't know, Kiyotaka took 5 years to learn numerous martial arts, overpower his own instructors which narratively are professionals and go to top world levels, almost all from the age of 4 to 9, then he went on to get even better with time. ALL of this happened to him at the age of 9.

I DO know this because it has been stated to me several times but it still doesn't mean anything.

Yes, Kiyotaka isn't a natural genius like Yu, but crazily enough, his adaptability goes beyond Yu in that he is reliant solely on his adaptability, and if he wasn't ever trained, he would have ended up as just an above average individual (even mentioned in the series).

Okay, it's the same for Yu, he never trained his skills outside of learning dura neg for Aaron and specifically is discouraged by K from training his skills so he isn't limited by the inferior abilities of other styles.

And yes, I would like to make it clear here for the last time, I hate to go in circles, and my first argument is about them being able to touch one another, skills, techniques and all other crap comes later.

Skills and technique literally play an active role in an opponent's ability to land attacks. Why are you ducking the skill argument?

You are yet to prove that how Yu's highly conventional analytical prediction resistance does negate any of the non-cognition related approaches which Kiyotaka can take. Kiyotaka is above Yu's methodology of predictions in nature itself.

You haven't even explained how any of that stuff works beyond intuition, which still isn't enough to beat Yu. I don't need to prove your own point for you.

am not even saying that he does have murderous intent, it's just that Kiyotaka's murderous intent involves him socially influencing characters in unrealistic means where he can cause them to be nearly paralyzed in a fight (vs Nagumo in Y2V4), or against Hirata in Y1V11 where he made him confess his deepest darkest secrets.

He can literally change Yu's mood, and at the very least, cause him irritability to higher points.

Okay, how though? What would he say or do to change Yu's mood specifically?

never said he will use intuition to completely go in the fight and do only intuition. He would use it only for the determination of Yu's extent of abilities and then would use his prime methodology of using upper limits to foresee. If you read the scan which you sent, completely, you would see it.

This still all ties in to analyzing Yu's physical specs and abilities, whether he does it through conscious analysis or intuition. Either way he is predicting Yu's abilities by looking at him physically, whether by conscious thought, or just by intuitively knowing his specs, which Yu resists.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yu FRA