Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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He had a profile before but it was deleted due to poor quality
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Anyone planning on making a profile for Elric of Melniboné?
- Thread starter Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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Blackcurrant91 was working on one last time but his blog on elric has not been updated. There are decent feats and cosmology threads on Onelastforum about the verse.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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Thanks for the info
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The cosmology of the verse is insanely big. You would have to read like 20-30 books to even get the scans for it. It's not really a verse I can work on alone.
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for the scans the respect threads has plenty there to grab from.
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It's hard for me to trust someone elses reading comprehension in that they haven't missed stuff. I've been getting back into reading the series recently.
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atem is pretty well versed in the series.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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I think we can still create profiles for popular characters from the verse, even if they are not exhaustive or we have not read all the books in the verse.
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Yeh I just finished the first book in the Elric Saga.
Some interesting feats. Melnibone sorcerors use dreaming chairs to live out a huge number of alternate lives/experiences to train themselves in sorcery and combat.
The Elementals of the Water, Earth and Fire that Elric can summon where said to have created/sunk continents in their war.
Elric is literally 10-C without drugs/potions in the first book and can barely move/lift his sword without them.
Despite this he's stated to be the second best swordsman in the whole kingdom behind his cousin.
He's stated to be one of the most learned and skilled sorcerors in the several millenia history of Melnibone.
His mind gets flooded with millions of alternate memories/identities after a magical mirror storing them was broken and he managed to assert his identity where all around him simply went insane.
He manages to summon Arioch with immense preparation, something that hasn't been achieved in Melnibone for a very long time.
Arioch can transport Elric anyhwere in the Multiverse and tells Elric that if Yrnkoon gets both of the black swords he might accidently destroy half the world (hard to say if this is just a statement of how easy this would be to do or if it's literally an attack power thing)
At the end of the book he gets Stormbringer and wrestles it's immense power and demonic will away from it (it's literally sentient) and because of this and defeats his cousin and outsmarts Arioch (although it's implied that him taking up the sword will be his doom regardless).
During this fight Elric wields the immense broadsword 'as if it where a needle thin rapier' (I think it's stated to be 7 feet long and very thick)
With Stormbringer he no longer needs potions and it can essentially feed him strength and stamina based on how many souls Stormbringer has drunk, it being stated to be able to kill Angels, Demons and even Gods and the reason Arioch is helping Elric is because Arioch cannot wield Stormbringer himself.
More to come I guess.
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Sorry for Necro, there is like ALOT.
Elric himself is weaker then the versions of himself that exist in dream quests.
Dreams are real, physically accessible places and some humans can convert dreams from non existence into reality, described as giving form to chaos.
The actual fighting isn't described much but Elric goes to a city described as essentially akin in splendour to Immyr (his city) and he finds himself weak and without any potions to sustain him. He is sent on a quest to obtain a mystical gigantic 'pearl at the heart of the world' and he kills a group of sorceror-warriors from the Kingdom, described as their most elite warriors casually.
At the end of the book after his quest through dreams with his daughter he obtains the pearl and the leaders of the city renig on their bargain with him so he casually raises the entire city by himself.
In another book he goes to the realm of chaos and the lords of chaos ask him to create something new and entirely novel. He creates an exact copy of himself but inside the mind of the copy exists everything that ever existed and will exist all at once.
It's all honestly very confusing and seems to all fit into the bigger overarching picture of Elrics destiny.
Moorcock doesn't really focus on actual feats/fighting that much and tends to use flowery language to simply describe Elric slaughtering vast amounts of people.
His daughter Oone peforms a technique with a spear/sword that Elric describes as more skillful then anyone he has ever seen or met before, something that would be discussed for millenia after it (it's all very vague)
Honestly I would need alot of help to make this profile a reality, it would require me basically reading the entire Moorcockverse (For example Zenith the Albino is just Elric on a dream quest)
Elric himself is weaker then the versions of himself that exist in dream quests.
Dreams are real, physically accessible places and some humans can convert dreams from non existence into reality, described as giving form to chaos.
The actual fighting isn't described much but Elric goes to a city described as essentially akin in splendour to Immyr (his city) and he finds himself weak and without any potions to sustain him. He is sent on a quest to obtain a mystical gigantic 'pearl at the heart of the world' and he kills a group of sorceror-warriors from the Kingdom, described as their most elite warriors casually.
At the end of the book after his quest through dreams with his daughter he obtains the pearl and the leaders of the city renig on their bargain with him so he casually raises the entire city by himself.
In another book he goes to the realm of chaos and the lords of chaos ask him to create something new and entirely novel. He creates an exact copy of himself but inside the mind of the copy exists everything that ever existed and will exist all at once.
It's all honestly very confusing and seems to all fit into the bigger overarching picture of Elrics destiny.
Moorcock doesn't really focus on actual feats/fighting that much and tends to use flowery language to simply describe Elric slaughtering vast amounts of people.
His daughter Oone peforms a technique with a spear/sword that Elric describes as more skillful then anyone he has ever seen or met before, something that would be discussed for millenia after it (it's all very vague)
Honestly I would need alot of help to make this profile a reality, it would require me basically reading the entire Moorcockverse (For example Zenith the Albino is just Elric on a dream quest)
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Hiya, looked to see if anyone had discussed Elric before and I found this thread. I've been reading through Elric's stories and gathering feats as I do. I can see it being a difficult profile to make but I've been enjoying them enough that I think I might do so eventually. Of course there's quite a bit of stuff. I'm going to read through all of Elric's stuff myself, if anyone else is interested in checking the rest of Moorcock's work that can only be helpful. The multiverse's structure could end up being relevant and so is the Eternal Champion stuff. Either way even without that I can see an Elric profile being very cool.
Work so far. I plan to go back and gather scans for most of this once I'm at least halfway through and I know I'll commit. Since it's a lot of work I still won't promise anything.
Stat-wise Elric is solidly in 9-C / Peak Human tiers, maybe Superhuman but not much. He chops through armor and bone easily but still remains bound by human-like limitations, an arrow flies by him before he can react and all. With Stormbringer he's more impressive speed-wise and can solo entire armies, it definitely amplifies his combat speed by a lot. AP-wise it's not that impressive though, he's unable to chop through a large beetle's shell enough to deal a heavy wound, the hax is what makes it such a threat (although it still hits harder than normal weaponry).
Elementals and Chaos/Law Lords have tier 6 statements, fairly consistent too. Elric's own summoning of them is relatively limited though, although quite impressive on a smaller scale. The wildest thing so far for sure is a story where he fuses with three other Eternal Champions and is very clearly Low 2-C, maybe 2-A.And still just Superhuman in speed, lol
Work so far. I plan to go back and gather scans for most of this once I'm at least halfway through and I know I'll commit. Since it's a lot of work I still won't promise anything.
Stat-wise Elric is solidly in 9-C / Peak Human tiers, maybe Superhuman but not much. He chops through armor and bone easily but still remains bound by human-like limitations, an arrow flies by him before he can react and all. With Stormbringer he's more impressive speed-wise and can solo entire armies, it definitely amplifies his combat speed by a lot. AP-wise it's not that impressive though, he's unable to chop through a large beetle's shell enough to deal a heavy wound, the hax is what makes it such a threat (although it still hits harder than normal weaponry).
Elementals and Chaos/Law Lords have tier 6 statements, fairly consistent too. Elric's own summoning of them is relatively limited though, although quite impressive on a smaller scale. The wildest thing so far for sure is a story where he fuses with three other Eternal Champions and is very clearly Low 2-C, maybe 2-A.
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I have aread alot of Moorcock and could probably assist, my main issue has been the cosmology itself being a barrier to making an Elric profile as the cosmology is just insanely huge and honestly fairly complex.
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Honestly the cosmology is what I probably need the most help with, yeah. Rest I should be able to handle on my own, but tier 1 isn't something I know very well.
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I have actually been slowly collecting feats for Elric. Took a break to read other stuff, but I've read up to Stormbringer. Also started making a page, though the ratings are pretty vibes based for now as I haven't gotten calcs. I can post more stuff tomorrow, but for now I'd say:
I'll post more specific feats and cosmology stuff tomorrow.
Elric is 10-C (as someone else noted, he can barely move without drugs or Stormbringer), 9-C (pretty consistently stated to be one of the best warriors on the planet and can defeat numerous other swordsman by himself), possibly 9-B (Normal warriors can fight against elephant-crocodile hybrids and beasts with 30 feet wingspans) with potions, and Stormbringer varies from 9-B (Has a mountain of feats where he shatters armour and cleaves people in half, along with stuff like caving in metal doors and destroying a shapeshifter after it transformed into a giant rock) to 5-B, possibly 2-C (I will need to go into a lot more detail later, but when filled up with souls Stormbringer can heavily damage Lords of Chaos while they're empowered enough to turn the planet to ash with the mere side effects of their battle. The 2-C comes from cosmology stuff and due to the final fight of the Stormbringer book, I'm unsure if Elric directly scales. In short, Lords of Chaos have full control over anything in the Realm of Chaos, which includes multiple universes. However, while incredibly close to Chaos at the end of Stormbringer, I'm hesitant to say Elric scales to their universal ends. Stormbringer is also respectful of Arioch in his Dukedom, implying some sort of relativity to each other). His spellcasting/summoning varies a lot as well.
While the cosmology is wild, it's at the very least 2-B, as Revenge of the Rose makes it clear there are an enormous but finite amount of universes. Does anyone scale? Not really as far as I've seen, aside from the Cosmic Balance and Elric in the most hyper specific circumstances in Moorcock's Multiverse. Lords of Higher Worlds are pretty comfortably 2-C though, and the fusion of Eternal Champions can kill entities beyond them (said entities can additionally devour the universe). Moorcock's Multiverse has some weird stuff about vibrating up and down different levels of reality, but those don't seem to be tier 1, just a really weird method of dimensional travel. There was one feat at the end of Revenge of the Rose that might imply Low 1-C (in the creation of numerous swords similar to Stormbringer, Elric and other Melniboneans projected themselves beyond the multiverse) but it's kind of vague.
I'll post more specific feats and cosmology stuff tomorrow.
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I made this a while back where I collected a bunch of scans about the cosmology.
the general consensus was that the multiverse is High 1-B
vsbattles.com
the general consensus was that the multiverse is High 1-B
Assistance tiering cosmology.
For reference this is Michael Moorcocks Multiverse. Firstly we have infinite universes. “In an infinite universe, all may become real sooner or later. Yet it is always up to mankind to make real what it really wishes to be real.” ― Michael Moorcock, The Warlord of the Air (A Nomad of the Time...
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Oh damn, the infinities within infinities stuff definitely seems High 1-B. I think the Higher Lords may scale to that? Was checking my notes and there are statements of the Higher Worlds lacking time, space and potentially even dimensions. I've been reading these through the Elric Saga collections, so the page count reflects those editions.
"He was half-blinded by the scintillating colours around him, which sometimes shone dark blue, silver and red; sometimes gold, light green, amber. He also felt the sickening lack of any sort of orientation--distance, depth, breadth, were meaningless. He recognized what he had only experienced in an astral form--the odd, timeless, spaceless quality that marked a realm of the Higher Worlds." (The Weird of The White Wolf, The Elric Saga, vol. 1. Page 675)
They also caused the Vanishing Tower to teleport between planes, which was threatening the multiverse. Though this seems more like a environmental destruction thing rather than their raw power.
"My friend--already much of time and space is threatened with destruction. Eternal barriers could soon fall-- the fabric of the multiverse could decay. You do not understand. Such a thing as has happened in the Vanishing Tower can only happen once or twice in an eternity and even then it is dangerous to all concerned." (The Vanishing Tower, The Elric Saga, vol. 2. page 159)
"He was half-blinded by the scintillating colours around him, which sometimes shone dark blue, silver and red; sometimes gold, light green, amber. He also felt the sickening lack of any sort of orientation--distance, depth, breadth, were meaningless. He recognized what he had only experienced in an astral form--the odd, timeless, spaceless quality that marked a realm of the Higher Worlds." (The Weird of The White Wolf, The Elric Saga, vol. 1. Page 675)
They also caused the Vanishing Tower to teleport between planes, which was threatening the multiverse. Though this seems more like a environmental destruction thing rather than their raw power.
"My friend--already much of time and space is threatened with destruction. Eternal barriers could soon fall-- the fabric of the multiverse could decay. You do not understand. Such a thing as has happened in the Vanishing Tower can only happen once or twice in an eternity and even then it is dangerous to all concerned." (The Vanishing Tower, The Elric Saga, vol. 2. page 159)
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The Higher Lords are weird, their power changes a lot depending on where they are, and while I'd wager at peak they probably scale to that tier they're a lot more limited elsewhere. At their weakest they're not so above Elric, who can fight Checkalah and even kill him (though his energy would've in turn killed Elric had it not been for outside help), but that's a special case since that one had been sealed. Generally on Elric's plane they're at least casually tier 6, they upscale from elementals who can upheave continents, and one in particular drinks all the water in the oceans and threatens to spit it into the sun, which is High 6-A+.
I'm at this point halfway through Elric's stories, including all the side stuff (though managing to cobble together a fully 100% comprehensive reading list was a nightmare lol). Glad to say I still really enjoy them, I was afraid to commit to the indexing out of fear I might get sick of them.
I'm at this point halfway through Elric's stories, including all the side stuff (though managing to cobble together a fully 100% comprehensive reading list was a nightmare lol). Glad to say I still really enjoy them, I was afraid to commit to the indexing out of fear I might get sick of them.
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Yeah, it's kind of hard to figure out how high Elric scales to them in some fights, cause you have times where Arioch's manifestation is just 9-B and eating soldiers, but then you have times where he can create objects capable of giving time to a timeless realm. At the very least, Elric's higher levels scale to the tier 6 ends, and I'd argue his Checkalah fight would count to that. Mostly since the Lords of Chaos are stated to be stronger than the high elementals and while he was "weak" in comparison to other Lords of Chaos, Checkalah still seemed to be relative.
I'm glad you're enjoying the series, it's fun and I love how insane the planes and concepts get. I especially like how existential they get, with Elric being this powerful swordsman and sorcerer but constantly being thrown around by forces he barely understands. Yeah, finding a reading list sucks, I'm just going through the Elric Saga collections then finding any miscellaneous stories after I'm done them.
In Stormbringer specifically Elric fights a bunch of Lords of Chaos while Earth is nearly completely submerged in their realm. I'm still not completely sure if this would scale him to their high ends, but at the very least he should scale to their planet level feat at the end of the book. It should be noted that Stormbringer is notably enhanced in this book though.
I'm glad you're enjoying the series, it's fun and I love how insane the planes and concepts get. I especially like how existential they get, with Elric being this powerful swordsman and sorcerer but constantly being thrown around by forces he barely understands. Yeah, finding a reading list sucks, I'm just going through the Elric Saga collections then finding any miscellaneous stories after I'm done them.
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Okay, I've struggled to find any notable speed feats. It's probably the biggest blind spot I've had feat wise.
The only notable ones are this one at the end of Stormbringer which I think is High Hypersonic or something:
When sufficiently empowered by Stormbringer, Elric is also described as basically flying across the deck of a ship. I'm pretty sure that would only be Superhuman. I think he's only Peak Human otherwise.
"So much vitality flowed into Elric that, as he rushed at the remaining group around the commander, he seemed to fly over the deck and rip into them, slicing away limbs as if they were flower stalks, until he encountered the commander himself." (Stormbringer, Elric Saga Vol. 2. Page 738-739)
For the really high tier stuff, The Lords of Higher Worlds expand over the horizon in seconds until they seem to be fighting over all of reality. I honestly have no idea where this would scale, maybe Immeasurable? This only scales to the strongest characters though, and again I'm unsure if Elric scales. He was fighting Lords of Chaos immediately before this happens, but I could see the argument that they got further amped after he fought them. If he did scale, it would only be at Stormbringer's highest levels of empowerment though.
The only notable ones are this one at the end of Stormbringer which I think is High Hypersonic or something:
"And then it leapt from the Earth and went spearing upwards, its wild voice laughing mockery at the Cosmic Balance; filling the universe with its unholy joy." (Stormbringer, Elric Saga Vol. 2. Page 821).
I'm pretty sure this would only scale to the higher ends, as its Stormbringer in its truest and seemingly most unrestricted form.
I'm pretty sure this would only scale to the higher ends, as its Stormbringer in its truest and seemingly most unrestricted form.
When sufficiently empowered by Stormbringer, Elric is also described as basically flying across the deck of a ship. I'm pretty sure that would only be Superhuman. I think he's only Peak Human otherwise.
"So much vitality flowed into Elric that, as he rushed at the remaining group around the commander, he seemed to fly over the deck and rip into them, slicing away limbs as if they were flower stalks, until he encountered the commander himself." (Stormbringer, Elric Saga Vol. 2. Page 738-739)
For the really high tier stuff, The Lords of Higher Worlds expand over the horizon in seconds until they seem to be fighting over all of reality. I honestly have no idea where this would scale, maybe Immeasurable? This only scales to the strongest characters though, and again I'm unsure if Elric scales. He was fighting Lords of Chaos immediately before this happens, but I could see the argument that they got further amped after he fought them. If he did scale, it would only be at Stormbringer's highest levels of empowerment though.
"Both the Lords of Law and those of Chaos had become huge and misty as their earthly mass diminished and they continued to fight in human shape. They were like half-real giants, fighting everywhere now--on the land and above it. Far away on the rim of the horizon, he saw Donblad the Justice Maker engaged with Chardros the Reaper, their outlines flickering and spreading, the slim sword darting and the great scythe sweeping.
Unable to participate, unsure which side was winning, Elric and Moonglum watched as the intensity of the battle increased and, with it, the slow dissolution of the gods' earthly manifestation. The fight was no longer merely on the Earth but seemed to be raging throughout all the planes of the cosmos" [Stormbringer, Page 815-817]
Unable to participate, unsure which side was winning, Elric and Moonglum watched as the intensity of the battle increased and, with it, the slow dissolution of the gods' earthly manifestation. The fight was no longer merely on the Earth but seemed to be raging throughout all the planes of the cosmos" [Stormbringer, Page 815-817]
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I think physically Elric is Peak Human, Superhuman to Subsonic with Stormbringer from what I've seen. He's always a really good fighter and can deflect launched spears and so on but does get blitzed by Rackhir's arrows in EoM. Stormbringer makes him a lot faster. A few feats are Checkalah pursuing him at the speed of flash fire (around 12 m/s), Elric fighting the entire army of Quarzhasaat, and twelve Elenoin demons (who Moonglum and Rackhir are capable of fighting) attacking fast enough to turn a horse and a man into tiny scraps of flesh in seconds. There's a weird one where Elric cuts through two people so fast blood doesn't burst from the former until after he's hit the latter. Cool feat but probably not that high.
(I'll avoid clicking on the Stormbringer stuff, I'm partially spoiled already but I might as well avoid it until then)
Regarding the Checkalah fight I disagree, he's kind of a special case in that he was imprisoned by a Lord of Law for a long time, which weakened him. I don't think he scales to any impressive tiers, they often remark just how weak he's gotten.
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Yeh they're weaker when manifesting physically through an avatar then they are as their true self in their realms. They're sort of like Chaos Gods in warhammer 40k.
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ironic you say that considering how much of warhammer chaos was inpsired/taken from elric series.
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Indeedy do. Alot of the basis of the setting is directly ripped from Moorcock.
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How are people reading the books by the way? As I've said, I'm reading the Elric Saga collections, but if possible it would be nice to have PDFs so I can screenshot pages. If not, I'll probably just quote the passages directly. And is it an issue I'm citing the Saga collection page numbers instead of the single editions?
Don't know when exactly it'll be out, but I'm planning to make an ability blog listing all the evidence for Elric's powers (up to what I've read). He has so much stuff to pull from, lots of one off summons and such that let him go crazy if he has some preparation (Arioch alone can weaken enemies, spawn a madness inducing incarnation, completely nullify the powers of Demigods. Arioch additionally takes little time to summon, though he only shows up if Elric is truly desperate). Even Stormbringer alone is pretty crazy, although it's pretty fickle with its most wild stuff.
Don't know when exactly it'll be out, but I'm planning to make an ability blog listing all the evidence for Elric's powers (up to what I've read). He has so much stuff to pull from, lots of one off summons and such that let him go crazy if he has some preparation (Arioch alone can weaken enemies, spawn a madness inducing incarnation, completely nullify the powers of Demigods. Arioch additionally takes little time to summon, though he only shows up if Elric is truly desperate). Even Stormbringer alone is pretty crazy, although it's pretty fickle with its most wild stuff.
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I've found PDFs but I can't exactly share the methods, being that... you know.
For sure. He's kinda interesting vs-wise in the sense that on a baseline he's not too strong but he can bat so much higher than his weight class.
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Ah damn, guess I'll have to find my own way across the seven seas.I've found PDFs but I can't exactly share the methods, being that... you know.
For sure. He's kinda interesting vs-wise in the sense that on a baseline he's not too strong but he can bat so much higher than his weight class.
I do want to find a good matchup for him, but his ability to punch above his weight class kind of makes it hard to figure out a good opponent. Geralt is obvious due to the clear inspiration he has from Elric, but either he'd blitz and insta-kill base Elric, or Elric would instantly kill him with his higher end stuff. Maybe Conan? Haven't read the books so I can't say how well that would work out (though they did have a crossover that one time). Arioch fighting a Chaos God could be a fun matchup and even if the cosmology doesn't end up having anything 1-A, their manifestations have similar levels of power (country to planetary). Have it be a fight to the banishment instead of death, which would also fit with how both Arioch and the Chaos Gods are more about gaining influence then fighting people.
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Alright, I'm done researching Elric... which is to say I'm about halfway done, since I want to read all of the "main" Eternal Champion stories (Corum, Hawkmoon, Erekose) before indexing him, as well as the crossover stuff. But hey, we're getting there.
It's very rough but I've put together a sort of pre-beta sandbox for Elric, just to get all his feats outside of my main sandbox and start to get a feel for how it'll be laid out. Big profile, rn it's 100k bytes though with a lot of quotes I'll probably remove, I do want to elaborate quite a bit on a lot of his abilities though so in that ballpark for sure. In terms of stats he'll probably be 9-C / Peak Human with drugs, 9-B / Subsonic with Stormbringer and up to like, High 6-A+ in the closing books of the saga where he 1v1s Chaos Lords. Kind of a funny rating in that reading the Stormbringer cycle you would never guess they're that strong but then Moorcock went and retroactively gave them like, eight continent to multi-continent feats. So Elric gets pretty yoked. Of course there's the Eternal Champion stuff but I'll have to go over alot of that still.
For now other profiles I'm planning to do are Stormbringer (maybe, unsure if it'll be better split from him or not), Arioch, Moonglum, the Phoorn and Gaynor the Damned as well Corum/Hawkmoon/Erekose and an "Eternal Champion" profile for their fusions. Maybe Theleb K'aarna since I did write down stuff for him but probably not lol.
It's very rough but I've put together a sort of pre-beta sandbox for Elric, just to get all his feats outside of my main sandbox and start to get a feel for how it'll be laid out. Big profile, rn it's 100k bytes though with a lot of quotes I'll probably remove, I do want to elaborate quite a bit on a lot of his abilities though so in that ballpark for sure. In terms of stats he'll probably be 9-C / Peak Human with drugs, 9-B / Subsonic with Stormbringer and up to like, High 6-A+ in the closing books of the saga where he 1v1s Chaos Lords. Kind of a funny rating in that reading the Stormbringer cycle you would never guess they're that strong but then Moorcock went and retroactively gave them like, eight continent to multi-continent feats. So Elric gets pretty yoked. Of course there's the Eternal Champion stuff but I'll have to go over alot of that still.
For now other profiles I'm planning to do are Stormbringer (maybe, unsure if it'll be better split from him or not), Arioch, Moonglum, the Phoorn and Gaynor the Damned as well Corum/Hawkmoon/Erekose and an "Eternal Champion" profile for their fusions. Maybe Theleb K'aarna since I did write down stuff for him but probably not lol.
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Nice! Haven't been able to give it a full read through cause of uni, but I'll read through it when I can. From a small look I can say that the ability section is looking really solid.
One thing I'm wondering about is how exactly him fighting the Lords of Chaos in Stormbringer would scale. Because he fights them moments before they ascend across the multiverse and reduce the planet to dust, but the way the scene is framed makes it seem like the Lords of Higher Worlds are beyond him. There's also that point in The Revenge of the Rose where, even while contained to another realm Mashabak is capable of creating whole worlds, even though he isn't in a world ruled by Chaos. With Earth being mired in Chaos by the time of Stormbringer, the Lords of Chaos should have access to more power than he did in The Revenge of the Rose. Honestly the LoHW manifestations are such a headache, thank God the Continent feats are solid enough to fall back on.
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The ascension stuff doesn't scale to him because what he fights is specifically as much power as a Lord can manifest within one plane and transcending that plane means they're not bound by that limitation. In terms of AP feats there's a handful I listed here, Artigkern has the best feat, calced that ends up at High 6-A+, Miggea and Mashabak have realm destruction statements that'd get to High 6-A as well, possibly higher but not clearly so. Not sure what to make of Mashabak's feat where he pierces a hole between the realms with universes rippling within it, but I don't think it's an avatar thing. Should be safe-ish to say "At least High 6-A" for the Lords of Chaos' avatars, and Elric in turn.
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Yeh I agree, I think Lords of hell etc in their own realms are probably Low 2-C however, if not much higher (sort of like the Chaos Gods within the warp)
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yeah
oh also Lords do vary in power between realms, Arioch is explicitly on par with Xiombarg (or even stronger) in Elric's universe whereas in Corum's she outclasses him by quite a bit. Luckily the feats are consistent enough between worlds and also some are just from Elric's straight up so his scaling shouldn't be affected. Xiombarg does have a weird tier 5 thing in Corum's series though, they say she could split the Earth in two or send it flying into the sun. I say "weird" because Corum's Earth is a flat disk.
oh also Lords do vary in power between realms, Arioch is explicitly on par with Xiombarg (or even stronger) in Elric's universe whereas in Corum's she outclasses him by quite a bit. Luckily the feats are consistent enough between worlds and also some are just from Elric's straight up so his scaling shouldn't be affected. Xiombarg does have a weird tier 5 thing in Corum's series though, they say she could split the Earth in two or send it flying into the sun. I say "weird" because Corum's Earth is a flat disk.
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Yeh Elric is super suprised when Corum has merked most of the lords of his universe already.
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Ah okay, yeah High 6-A does seem like the safe end then. I'll keep my eye out for more planetary stuff since the Mashabak world creating feat is pretty vague (plus if it turns out they trapped his full power then he wouldn't scale anyway).
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Haven't read super far into the first Corum book, but it was front loaded with a bunch of cosmology stuff that I made sure to screenshot. Truth be told it's kind of hard to parse what exactly it entails, lots of mentions of planes and dimensions but how exactly those manifest has varied between books. Cause Earth had multiple planes which seemed to just be pocket realms instead of full universes and the term realm is used for a bunch of things.
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It's nothing super relevant since it's based on the Vadhagh's conception of the multiverse which is very limited, they think there's only 15 universes total. But yeah parallel universes/alternate Earths seem to be most of what the multiverse is made up of, that's consistent with Moorcock's more recent and outwardly multiversal stuff I've read.
Rn I'm planning to read Hawkmoon and Erekose's series, and then a few of the crossover things. There's a bunch more novels that'd be potentially relevant for scaling but I think I'd get really burnt out trying to get through them. The "Jerry Cornelius", "Second Ether", "End of Time" and "Travelling to Utopia" series seem like they might be relevant cosmologically speaking.
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What would the Eternal Champs have in a universal sense?
I have immortality type 3, 5, 8 and 9 for their essence or soul basically being an avatar of the cosmic balance or God and their essence being indestructible without also destroying Tanelorn (Similar to how Gaynor regenerates from complete body and soul destruction over time)
abstract existence type 2 (embodies the abstraction of the cosmic balance)
Acausality type 3 (there exists infinite versions of the eternal champion and even infinite variations of each of them individually)
Reality warping and conceptual manipulation (they can all manipulate the essence of the grey fees which makes up the concepts of the multiverse, one could remake the universe without death by changing them for example)
They seem to have a sort of passive fate manipulation that draws them towards some greater destiny, or like through the manipulations of the lords of the lower and higher worlds, like Elric seems to be destined to die to Stormbringer for example
Again, most of these aren't exactly combat applicable
I have immortality type 3, 5, 8 and 9 for their essence or soul basically being an avatar of the cosmic balance or God and their essence being indestructible without also destroying Tanelorn (Similar to how Gaynor regenerates from complete body and soul destruction over time)
abstract existence type 2 (embodies the abstraction of the cosmic balance)
Acausality type 3 (there exists infinite versions of the eternal champion and even infinite variations of each of them individually)
Reality warping and conceptual manipulation (they can all manipulate the essence of the grey fees which makes up the concepts of the multiverse, one could remake the universe without death by changing them for example)
They seem to have a sort of passive fate manipulation that draws them towards some greater destiny, or like through the manipulations of the lords of the lower and higher worlds, like Elric seems to be destined to die to Stormbringer for example
Again, most of these aren't exactly combat applicable
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