Caine is MFTL+ no way (TADC)

[DaReaperMan]

 Unlike the case you mentioned, Minecraft, etc, use a procedural generation (RNG) system... Honestly, I don't know why you're bringing this argument up.
Animation about simulation/game ≠ literal game

...You don't even understand what I'm saying, do you?

If you go up far enough in Minecraft, you get stopped. If you go up far enough in WoW, you get stopped. If you go up far enough in Terraria, you get stopped. If you go up far enough in TADC keep going because we haven't seen the edge yet. That's my point. Like I said, I don't disagree with downgrading him, just not for these reasons.

I'd like to mention that these simulations have heavy evidence of being universes, for DDLC we need a lenghty AP section AND a long note on Monika's profile to prove that her game world is not 10-C, 8-B or whatever but a full Low 2-C universe. Heck we have folks still arguing whether SAO should be treated as 10-C and all lol.

I don't exactly interact with the ******** that do this on account of disliking SAO and not interacting with DDLC.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't exactly interact with the ******** that do this on account of disliking SAO and not interacting with DDLC.

I mean I just like to discuss meta stuff like this given that in both cases they're simulations in-universe.

I could've brought up Undertale and Imscared too but I do not think anyone is dumb enough to argue these not being universe sized besides few Reddit users

 

[Zingerpond]

which have a day and night cycle implies that they are more than just kilometers in size. As for the sudden exclusion of the stars in the ending of episode 1, it can mostly be attributed to an animation error given how every other time we see the Grounds, there is a sky. Saying that it's a skybox because it's a video game shouldn't work as Caine has been known to make worlds with day and night cycles as stated earlier, meaning that these skies are very much real

This argument is so bad it's kinda funny. How does having a day night cycle prove or imply it's not a skybox? Basically every game with a day and night cycle ever uses skyboxes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean I just like to discuss meta stuff like this given that in both cases they're simulations in-universe.

I could've brought up Undertale and Imscared too but I do not think anyone is dumb enough to argue these not being universe sized besides few Reddit users

Fair enough, as far as this goes if there ain't stated to be a skybox and it's called a cosmos... I mean I'm gonna go with the thing that has any stated backing whatsoever instead of "lolsimulation/game can't be real anything"

 

[Alexander]

This argument is so bad it's kinda funny. How does having a day night cycle prove or imply it's not a skybox? Basically every game with a day and night cycle ever uses skyboxes.

This is not a game, it doesn't work like a game, it is more of a simulation than a game.
Or you know...there is this game called NO-MAN SKY!

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

So let me see if I understand this: the guy who can create anything with his imagination says he created a "cosmos," we see a starry sky and worlds with day and night cycles, but because the characters don't travel to space to see the stars up close, that's not 4A? Seriously?

 

[DaReaperMan]

This argument is so bad it's kinda funny. How does having a day night cycle prove or imply it's not a skybox? Basically every game with a day and night cycle ever uses skyboxes.

Want to know what's a horrendously bad argument?

Assumptions.

Wanna know how you can identify an assumption? There being 0 backing in the source material via statements of there being a skybox. Want to argue this? Bring me a statement. There's 8 episodes to work from you can certainly find something!

 

[StrymULTRA]

So let me see if I understand this: the guy who can create anything with his imagination says he created a "cosmos," we see a starry sky and worlds with day and night cycles, but because the characters don't travel to space to see the stars up close, that's not 4A? Seriously?

This is not an argument, you have to prove that these are real stars in an outer space rather than just dots in a ceiling made to emulate the effect of a night.

Narratively it changes literally nothing as the characters cannot reach them anyways, regardless of the stars being actual physical objects in an actually existing outer space, or just decorations in a very distant wall akin to The Truman Show (goated movie I hope y'all watched it btw).

 

[Alexander]

Just so everyone knows, No-Man Sky has the biggest map in all of videogame history...and it is literraly full of quintillions of planets (yes this is a complicated set up, but it is not impossible to achieve).
WE HAVE SPORE TOO, WITH A ENTIRE GALAXY!

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just so everyone knows, No-Man Sky has the biggest map in all of videogame history...and it is literraly full of quintillions of planets (yes this is a complicated set up, but it is not impossible to achieve).
WE HAVE SPORE TOO, WITH A ENTIRE GALAXY!

I'd like to mention that these simulations have heavy evidence of being universes, for DDLC we need a lenghty AP section AND a long note on Monika's profile to prove that her game world is not 10-C, 8-B or whatever but a full Low 2-C universe. Heck we have folks still arguing whether SAO should be treated as 10-C and all lol.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

This is not an argument, you have to prove that these are real stars in an outer space rather than just dots in a ceiling made to emulate the effect of a night.

Narratively it changes literally nothing as the characters cannot reach them anyways, regardless of the stars being actual physical objects in an actually existing outer space, or just decorations in a very distant wall akin to The Truman Show (goated movie I hope y'all watched it btw).

Yes, I watched The Truman Show, and it's all just a giant dome; it's not a guy controlling all of reality to create anything with is imagination saying he created a cosmos that we see acting like a real cosmos.

 

[Jinx666]

The Digital Circus is just literally a digital world from the 90s. We dk whats powering it, but its unlikely to be something that could store that much amss. Especially when the majority of this world it the 'Void' that Caine has no idea or control over.
It takes him a while to develop these worlds and create what he needs so its not like its instant either. Caine is also limited, as we see from the last two episodes as a generative ai to whatever pictured 'references' he gets. Its why he could only make a portion of the 'Exit' C&A office but not the rest of the world.

'Cosmic Buffet' is by no means a quality term to be using for this argument. Especially when his concept of a Sun and Moon are not literal sized and are sentient NPCs.

It is literally just the concept of a Skybox, which is far more valid and safer to be assuming as opposed to ppl trying to shoot for the high ends because there is a starry sky background.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We see the Candy World map from below, it's not even 1 meter thick. Like in basically every game.

Assuming Caine would create something billions upon billions of times larger than anything the characters have actually interacted with is, when we already know he only bothers to make what they can see and interact with, is far-fetched to say the least.

 

[Damage3245]

So let me see if I understand this: the guy who can create anything with his imagination says he created a "cosmos," we see a starry sky and worlds with day and night cycles, but because the characters don't travel to space to see the stars up close, that's not 4A? Seriously?

A "cosmos" doesn't have a singular or minimum size as far as I'm aware.

 

[Alexander]

We see the Candy World map from below, it's not even 1 meter thick. Like in basically every game.

Assuming Caine would make something billions upon billions of times the size of anything we've seen the characters actually interact with, when we already know he only bothers to make the stuff that the characters can see and interact with, is far-fetched to say the least.

This was specifically a exception, specially considering that there was so much meters and distance between this and the base grounds...like it was a few hundreds or thousands of meters to reach the true ground

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

The Digital Circus is just literally a digital world from the 90s. We dk whats powering it, but its unlikely to be something that could store that much amss. Especially when the majority of this world it the 'Void' that Caine has no idea or control over.
It takes him a while to develop these worlds and create what he needs so its not like its instant either. Caine is also limited, as we see from the last two episodes as a generative ai to whatever pictured 'references' he gets. Its why he could only make a portion of the 'Exit' C&A office but not the rest of the world.

'Cosmic Buffet' is by no means a quality term to be using for this argument. Especially when his concept of a Sun and Moon are not literal sized and are sentient NPCs.

It is literally just the concept of a Skybox, which is far more valid and safer to be assuming as opposed to ppl trying to shoot for the high ends because there is a starry sky background.

Dude, do you think the digital circus is comparable to anything we had in the '90s or even today?

 

[Jinx666]

I would also say that althought the reference to a skybox, and other video game builds are valid, we shouldnt be using the context of real-life game's and their story maps (they arent 'Solar System size' or w/e in real life, they're literally just binary data.) to be justifying why Caine can create this much.

 

[Jinx666]

Dude, do you think the digital circus is comparable to anything we had in the '90s or even today?

No i dont, thats not a focal point of what im saying.

Maybe we should be waiting for more context regardless.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

A "cosmos" doesn't have a singular or minimum size as far as I'm aware.

It's called supporting evidence.

He says that the starry sky is a cosmos.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, I watched The Truman Show, and it's all just a giant dome; it's not a guy controlling all of reality to create anything with is imagination saying he created a cosmos that we see acting like a real cosmos.

How do we know that Caine has full knowledge on what an actual cosmos is in the real world with all of that magnitude? Such a scale is completely and utter incomprehensible for a normal human mind to hold, and Caine is still a man-made creation.

I am not saying it is impossible for humans to create simulated universes if the verse supports such notion, just that heavy evidence must be gathered to get so.

A "cosmos" doesn't have a singular or minimum size as far as I'm aware.

Pretty much, if something that is blatantly a universe is called so, we do not treat it as such, given that the meaning is just "the totality of something", my house could also be a universe given that's where I live in and I do not reside anywhere else.

 

[Alexander]

How do we know that Caine has full knowledge on what an actual cosmos is in the real world with all of that magnitude? Such a scale is completely and utter incomprehensible for a normal human mind to hold, and Caine is still a man-made creation.

I am not saying it is impossible for humans to create simulated universes if the verse supports such notion, just that heavy evidence must be gathered to get so.

Somehow he is able to create guns and even futuristic guns despite not being created with that knowledge (all the knowledge he has is from things related to the circus) he is also able to create a anime style, despite again, that is not part of the data he was supposedly trained on.

Pretty much, if something that is blatantly a universe is called so, we do not treat it as such, given that the meaning is just "the totality of something", my house could also be a universe given that's where I live in and I do not reside anywhere else.

Your house is not sustained by your existence and you didn't create it from nothing.

 

[Jinx666]

Is this 'Cosmos' thing Really from him saying 'Cosmic Buffet' or am i missing some other quote?

Cause this does NOT mean all that. Especially when the moon and the sun are the same cartoony 2d sized NPCs in his example of 'night and day'. And the actual Circus grounds in themself are dwarfed by the surrounding Void, which is space that is completely unrelated to Caine.

Ppl also forgetting that Caine makes his creations off of examples as a creative AI, such as the photo references we see in the start of the episode segment, and how limited he can generate the 'exit' from photo references he has. Any generation that was based off a pictured reference to a starry sky would not be equal to a solar system/galaxy levels of power whatsoever. THOSE are the assumptions being made and they conveniently bump him to Tier 4 so...idk, i think we go for the safer option

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

How do we know that Caine has full knowledge on what an actual cosmos is in the real world with all of that magnitude? Such a scale is completely and utter incomprehensible for a normal human mind to hold, and Caine is still a man-made creation.

I am not saying it is impossible for humans to create simulated universes if the verse supports such notion, just that heavy evidence must be gathered to get so.

Pretty much, if something that is blatantly a universe is called so, we do not treat it as such, given that the meaning is just "the totality of something", my house could also be a universe given that's where I live in and I do not reside anywhere else.

The humans in the verse already possess incomparably more advanced technology than we do, which is why the entire plot exists. Cain created everything, so why wouldn't he know what he created?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Somehow he is able to create guns and even futuristic guns despite not being created with that knowledge (all the knowledge he has is from things related to the circus) he is also able to create a anime style, despite again, that is not part of the data he was supposedly trained on.

Guns are not beyond the comprehension of human brains, we literally build them.

Your house is not sustained by your existence and you didn't create it from nothing.

Why is this relevant? If I create a pocket realm and call it cosmos, it does not mean it's cosmic size if I only make it appear that way lol.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Why is this relevant? If I create a pocket realm and call it cosmos, it does not mean it's cosmic size if I only make it appear that way lol.

So, the thing that is called a cosmos, looks like a cosmos, and acts like a cosmos, isn't a cosmos? Okay.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, the thing that is called a cosmos, looks like a cosmos, and acts like a cosmos, isn't a cosmos? Okay.

I think context takes precedence over random statements from a character that is known to use unserious language as a way to make himself sound funnier tbf.

 

[Jinx666]

So, the thing that is called a cosmos, looks like a cosmos, and acts like a cosmos, isn't a cosmos? Okay.

Again, is this 'cosmos' argument literally just stemming from Caine calling it a 'Cosmic buffet'?

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

I think context takes precedence over random statements from a character that is known to use unserious language as a way to make himself sound funnier tbf.

The same character who controls reality and can create anything with the imagination? The character that created everything?

 

[StrymULTRA]

The same character who controls reality and can create anything with the imagination? The character that created everything?

Why does this suddenly mean that it's literal.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Again, is this 'cosmos' argument literally just stemming from Caine calling it a 'Cosmic buffet'?

added to the fact that it looks and acts like a cosmos.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm still waiting for that "skybox" statement people. Surely if this is such a big argument it's actually stated in TADC, right?

 

[Jinx666]

added to the fact that it looks and acts like a cosmos.

How does it 'act like a cosmos'??? Its a digital world, that doesnt run on real world physics. Its just an imitation. The Moon and the Sun are sentient NPCs that are the same size, theres nothing making it literal.
Adding to the fact that Caine literally doesn't know what the Circus ppl want when they mean 'exit' or how to create an actual world. He is literally just making video game maps, nothing comparable to the real life energy output of a star.

We dont even see these stars up close or anything, its literally just a backdrop that all takes place in a digital world. So i dont get this argument about it being a 'cosmos'.

and this is let alone how 'Cosmic Buffet' is NOT a serious term, or something we should be using to justify this. Its literally just Caine's hypetalk.

 

[StrymULTRA]

added to the fact that it looks and acts like a cosmos.

When Caine, the Sun and the Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size, it's hard to believe that.

 

[Jinx666]

When Caine, the Sun and the Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size, it's hard to believe that.

doesnt this clip also literally show circular skybox backdrops present in the circus? With clouds and stuff?

 

[DaReaperMan]

When Caine, the Sun and the Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size, it's hard to believe that.

Hey look, my actual argument against Caine's sky being literal.

 

[StrymULTRA]

doesnt this clip also literally show circular skybox backdrops present in the circus? With clouds and stuff?

RIGHT LMAOOOOOOOOO.

And there goes the hope of clouds being a thing.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

When Caine, the Sun and the Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size, it's hard to believe that.

Thankfully, the feat 4A comes from Cain creating a starry sky that behaves like a real sky in a world with a day and night cycle, right?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Besides, Caine has clear hard-coded limits. He can't even 'delete' or kill the humans who enter the digital world because he’s just an AI managing a server.

That's actually headcanon. He can freely torture them, censor them, and mess with their minds and memories. We don’t know if he can kill them if he wants to. And no, he didn’t want to kill them in episode 8, some of his first lines during the crashout was “they won’t leave me”.

The best you can argue is Bubble, he genuinely can’t do a thing to him except popping him, but it is heavily implied they largely share the same code.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Thankfully, the feat 4A comes from Cain creating a starry sky that behaves like a real sky in a world with a day and night cycle, right?

And thankfully, we've already seen that Caine makes cartoonish stars instead of real ones.

 

[Jinx666]

Thankfully, the feat 4A comes from Cain creating a starry sky that behaves like a real sky in a world with a day and night cycle, right?

Skyboxes can do this to, and also dont make the wild assumption that Caine can somehow create the comparable energy to a solar system (at minimum) just because there is a star backdrop.
Caine focuses on the actual adventure aspect of his creations too, like the maps and NPCs, not putting billions of more effort into creating real life stars