GRACE [8-2-0] Ok, no joke: Could Sherlock Holmes get Kira?

[Nonynho]

Having more content ≠ having better feats.

Besides having an interest in a deep, through analysis about why you think like that
How are you voting in the match here, mate?

 

[ByArrow]

Besides having an interest in a deep, through analysis about why you think like that

It's been a few years since I read the books, but as far as I remember, the original Sherlock doesn't have any high-level feats like simulating a bomb explosion in his mind to pinpoint its location, accurately predicting future two weeks in advance, or simulating an alternate universe in his mind. Instead, he has feats like looking at an object or a person and deducing deep information about them, looking to dirt on a shoe to deduces its origin, or looking at ashes to identify their source—feats that BBC Sherlock performs in every episode. I'm not belittling the original Sherlock, but BBC's bomb feat and universe feat alone surpass all the feats I remember from the original Sherlock.

How are you voting in the match here, mate?

I'm not voting yet.

 

[Nonynho]

I'm not belittling the original Sherlock, but BBC's bomb feat and universe feat alone surpass all the feats I remember from the original Sherlock.

Bet. Will be keeping an eye for whenever @Doggo gets a reform to Sherlock's intelligence section as they said they would, to see if a chess match works lol

I'm not voting yet.

May i ask for an input?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Light taking the deal is so superrrrr out of character

Did you forget that he would go on to physically meet L....and still not make the deal

But I do agree that Light could probably get Sherlock's name over time via manipulating the police (using the death note to control some FBI higher up to expose him)

Also, while Sherlock is direct, I doubt he would try to meet Ligth or something; he is more likely to sneak into his house to find evidence, like finding the Death Note.

It genuinely isn't. Light didn't take it with L because he didn't need to. By the time L was pushing him enough to maybe necessitate it, he had Misa, et al, whose mere contributions were usually enough to at least disrupt the investigation into him. The assertion, then, is that Sherlock does so much better than L, in unfamiliar territory (technologically and supernaturally and with less resources), that Light never does any deduction on his own behalf, which I think is naive.

With L, it was an obstacle that could, very blatantly, be overcome by playing out his role. And Light values his lifespan a great deal, so halving it is not something he would do. But if given no choice, it is an option, and half a lifespan as a god sure beats none of it.

 

[Doggo]

It genuinely isn't. Light didn't take it with L because he didn't need to. By the time L was pushing him enough to maybe necessitate it, he had Misa, et al, whose mere contributions were usually enough to at least disrupt the investigation into him. The assertion, then, is that Sherlock does so much better than L, in unfamiliar territory (technologically and supernaturally and with less resources), that Light never does any deduction on his own behalf, which I think is naive.

With L, it was an obstacle that could, very blatantly, be overcome by playing out his role. And Light values his lifespan a great deal, so halving it is not something he would do. But if given no choice, it is an option, and half a lifespan as a god sure beats none of it.

And? What's stopping Light from also feeling he does not yet need the eyes against Sherlock here? I won't deny that Light would do it out of desperation, but I fail to see why he won't spend his sweet time trying to figure out his name via other means before finding the need to use it. Also, what's stopping Holmes from doing what L did with the face reveal trap in the university scene?



Mind you, this is the reason why Light NEEDED Misa (who isn't here). Because killing L (in this case, Sherlock) incriminates him, that is why he had to manipulate Rem into killing L by deliberately putting Misa in danger to win. Sherlock's profile already mentions him having great planning skills against Moriarty; he is definitely smart enough to do something similar. If Sherly does this, even if Light takes the eye deal, he won't be able to kill Sherlock at all without exposing himself.

At best, Light puts Sherlock in a stalemate if Sherlock can't prove he is Kira (basically what would happen if Misa had not intervened in canon) because Light literally can't kill him if he exposes himself like that.

Also I'm voting for Holmes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And? What's stopping Light from also feeling he does not yet need the eyes against Sherlock here? I won't deny that Light would do it out of desperation, but I fail to see why he won't spend his sweet time trying to figure out his name via other means before finding the need to use it. Also, what's stopping Holmes from doing what L did with the face reveal trap in the university scene?



Mind you, this is the reason why Light NEEDED Misa (who isn't here). Because killing L (in this case, Sherlock) incriminates him, that is why he had to manipulate Rem into killing L by deliberately putting Misa in danger to win. Sherlock's profile already mentions him having great planning skills against Moriarty; he is definitely smart enough to do something similar. If Sherly does this, even if Light takes the eye deal, he won't be able to kill Sherlock at all without exposing himself.

At best, Light puts Sherlock in a stalemate if Sherlock can't prove he is Kira (basically what would happen if Misa had not intervened in canon) because Light literally can't kill him if he exposes himself like that.

Also I'm voting for Holmes

Sherlock doing the same strategies as L just seems wildly out of character (I acknowledge that I've only read two of the books and it was a long time ago, but still). Having "great planning skills" doesn't grant him an innate advantage against supernatural forces. That you rescinded your position that Light taking the Shinigami eyes ever is out of character is enough.

I will point out, also, that Light killing Sherlock is a win. Sherlock wins only if he's still alive and Light is arrested. If pushed as you say Sherlock would, it's my opinion that Sherlock absolutely eats it. He's made suspicious kills before, given the opportunity. The only thing that really stopped him with Light was that Light could be bypassed by other means. So I feel Light will assure Sherlock's death before he is arrested, whether he is pressed to do so or merely outmaneuvers him in an unfamiliar territory.

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Doggo]

Sherlock doing the same strategies as L just seems wildly out of character (I acknowledge that I've only read two of the books and it was a long time ago, but still).

It's not. He literally started a fire to make Irene expose herself in Scandal of Bohemia. He even went as far as to lie to his own partner in Hounds of Baskeville to catch the killer. They won't hesitate to break some laws if that's what it takes. Mind you, he straight-up kills Moriaty just to collapse his criminal empire.

Having "great planning skills" doesn't grant him an innate advantage against supernatural forces.

Let's ignore that we are talking about a series that involves a detective dealing with supernatural forces and actually pressured the killer with great deductions and planning skills. Your argument gets contradicted by the literal plot of Death Note.

. The only thing that really stopped him with Light was that Light could be bypassed by other means. So I feel Light will assure Sherlock's death before he is arrested, whether he is pressed to do so or merely outmaneuvers him in an unfamiliar territory.

Explain. I already gave potential strategies for Sherlock to use (sneaking into Light's room to get the Death Note and have the court test it to convict him or using the same name reveal strategy L did to make it hard to kill him)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's not. He literally started a fire to make Irene expose herself in Scandal of Bohemia. He even went as far as to lie to his own partner in Hounds of Baskeville to catch the killer. They won't hesitate to break some laws if that's what it takes. Mind you, he straight-up kills Moriaty just to collapse his criminal empire.



Let's ignore that we are talking about a series that involves a detective dealing with supernatural forces and actually pressured the killer with great deductions and planning skills. Your argument gets contradicted by the literal plot of Death Note.




Explain. I already gave potential strategies for Sherlock to use (sneaking into Light's room to get the Death Note and have the court test it to convict him or using the same name reveal strategy L did to make it hard to kill him)

Those aren't the same strategies employed by L. I don't really understand the point you're making, since those actually seem pretty counter to L's strategies. I'll also note just killing Light would seemingly be a draw in this particular match, since the wincon for Sherlock is explicitly getting Light convicted, not killing him. Death is only a wincon for Light, not vice versa.

That doesn't erase the point I made. You can't really plan for what you don't know. Planning skills will help but like. You can't plan around the existence of Shinigami. This is the "batman prep time" argument all over again.

Your strategies aren't really cure-alls. I find them poorly convincing and they don't really account for what it is we're looking at here. "Yeah just have him kill more people and the court will convict him" that's not the premise, man. That doesn't prove anything, not even L was able to convict Light for that. What are we doing here.

At the end of the day I think the thread is really out in the weeds in regards to hypothetical situations. I still vote Light because I don't see it as remotely likely that he just... accepts defeat, for some reason, when he doesn't have to. Essentially all power in this fight is in his hands, he just has to work it out or take it.

 

[Doggo]

Those aren't the same strategies employed by L. I don't really understand the point you're making, since those actually seem pretty counter to L's strategies.

You argued that Sherlock doing the same strategies as L is out of character:

Sherlock doing the same strategies as L just seems wildly out of character

I simply gave an example of Sherlock willingly doing something illegal to do his job. His doing the same strategy as L is very in character unless it jeopardizes a person's life (so he won't be doing stuff like the Lind L. Taylor stunt but would definately do somehting like the Name reveal strategy)

I'll also note just killing Light would seemingly be a draw in this particular match, since the wincon for Sherlock is explicitly getting Light convicted, not killing him. Death is only a wincon for Light, not vice versa.

Bud, I never argued that Sherlock would win via a kill. I don't know why you wrote this as if I said something along those lines. I made it clear that Sherlock would win by proving Light's identity as Kira on the court in my previous comments.

That doesn't erase the point I made. You can't really plan for what you don't know. Planning skills will help but like. You can't plan around the existence of Shinigami. This is the "batman prep time" argument all over again.

What would Ryuk do in this scenario exactly? At best, he will do the same stuff in canon, like telling Light someone is following him, finding the location of wiretraps, or scaring off a bus hijacker. But even L was able to toy with Light around despite being inexperienced against the supernatural and outright horrified upon the discovery of Shinigami. Sherlock doesn't need to plan around Ryuk. Ryuk won't be in Light's home if Sherlock busts into his house and steals the DN while Ligth is away.

Your strategies aren't really cure-alls. I find them poorly convincing and they don't really account for what it is we're looking at here. "Yeah just have him kill more people and the court will convict him" that's not the premise, man. That doesn't prove anything, not even L was able to convict Light for that. What are we doing here.

Huh? That's not what I said. I said that Sherlock can steal the notebook and have the court test it, and use the fact Ligth owns it in his room to convict him. I never said anything about "Yeah, just have him kill more people, and the court will convict him." You are putting words in my mouth. L was quite literally going to test the Death Note on a death row victim after asking the UN, and that would have incriminated Ligth had Rem not killed him. Having the court legally test the notebook will screw Light over, especially with Misa and Rem not being there to save him. Suffice to say, it would work because the canon shows that strategy to be a serious threat that required Light to make a massive gambit with his memory loss plan.

not even L was able to convict Light for that.

Yeah cuz why? Light deliberately did his Yotsoba scheme just to have L claim the notebook, knowing he would test it. If L tests and confirms its power to the UN, Misa would be exposed as the 2nd Kira. This pushed Rem to kill L and Watari before the former could write in the notebook. Remember, Rem is in love with Misa; that's what pushed her to kill her potential captors. Light won't have the chance to do this since Misa and Rem are not here. There is nothing he can do if Sherlock steals the book from his drawer and tests it in court.

 

[Doggo]

Light is literally cooked if Sherlock does the name reveal strategy, as even if he takes the eye deal and kills Holmes, that would immediately convict him and lead to an incon.

 

[Doggo]

It's been a few years since I read the books, but as far as I remember, the original Sherlock doesn't have any high-level feats like simulating a bomb explosion in his mind to pinpoint its location, accurately predicting future two weeks in advance, or simulating an alternate universe in his mind. Instead, he has feats like looking at an object or a person and deducing deep information about them, looking to dirt on a shoe to deduces its origin, or looking at ashes to identify their source—feats that BBC Sherlock performs in every episode. I'm not belittling the original Sherlock, but BBC's bomb feat and universe feat alone surpass all the feats I remember from the original Sherlock.

I'm not voting yet.

Yeah nuh uh

Sherlock Holmes novel Document

Detective Sherlock Holmes (The Embodiment of The Truth) (The Creator of Deduction) (The peak of human intelligence) (The Saviour of Scotland yard) (The Wizard of Baker Street) (The cleverest man of the century) (The World's greatest Detective) (The World's only consulting detective) (The A...

docs.google.com

Read this. Sherly has feats like simulating the entire city of London in his head. He definately has crazy feats even if BBC Sherlock is still smarter

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I'll vote Sherlock FRA.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I simply gave an example of Sherlock willingly doing something illegal to do his job. His doing the same strategy as L is very in character unless it jeopardizes a person's life (so he won't be doing stuff like the Lind L. Taylor stunt but would definately do somehting like the Name reveal strategy)

Doing illegal things isn't a strategy. That's not what that word means.

Bud, I never argued that Sherlock would win via a kill. I don't know why you wrote this as if I said something along those lines. I made it clear that Sherlock would win by proving Light's identity as Kira on the court in my previous comments.

You're talking about Sherlock just killing people when you talk about his strategies? What are you arguing if not that?

What would Ryuk do in this scenario exactly? At best, he will do the same stuff in canon, like telling Light someone is following him, finding the location of wiretraps, or scaring off a bus hijacker. But even L was able to toy with Light around despite being inexperienced against the supernatural and outright horrified upon the discovery of Shinigami. Sherlock doesn't need to plan around Ryuk. Ryuk won't be in Light's home if Sherlock busts into his house and steals the DN while Ligth is away.

The thing you're responding to didn't even mention Ryuk? This is a strawman-- a rare situation on this website that is, actually, a strawman. Though, it's worth noting, L is capable of planning too, and has had Ryuk work in his plans. Like switching the Death Note between cooperators. So I guess, even though I was not making that point, I still disagree with you.

Huh? That's not what I said. I said that Sherlock can steal the notebook and have the court test it, and use the fact Ligth owns it in his room to convict him. I never said anything about "Yeah, just have him kill more people, and the court will convict him." You are putting words in my mouth. L was quite literally going to test the Death Note on a death row victim after asking the UN, and that would have incriminated Ligth had Rem not killed him. Having the court legally test the notebook will screw Light over, especially with Misa and Rem not being there to save him. Suffice to say, it would work because the canon shows that strategy to be a serious threat that required Light to make a massive gambit with his memory loss plan.

I suppose I just don't see the court murdering people to test a book as a likely option. I also note that Sherlock doesn't know about the Death Note at the outset, and Light has time to counter anything he does, so like. This assumption more or less relies on Light being a sitting duck for a long period of time, or getting to the same point as L, where Sherlock probably dies because Light will have his own setup by that point.

Yeah cuz why? Light deliberately did his Yotsoba scheme just to have L claim the notebook, knowing he would test it. If L tests and confirms its power to the UN, Misa would be exposed as the 2nd Kira. This pushed Rem to kill L and Watari before the former could write in the notebook. Remember, Rem is in love with Misa; that's what pushed her to kill her potential captors. Light won't have the chance to do this since Misa and Rem are not here. There is nothing he can do if Sherlock steals the book from his drawer and tests it in court.

The OP doesn't say Misa isn't here? This isn't an actual VS Battle, so the standard assumptions of outside help don't apply. I suppose if @Nonynho intended for Misa to not be allowed, that would be fine, but currently, Misa can and probably will be involved.

 

[Doggo]

Doing illegal things isn't a strategy. That's not what that word means.

Bro, no offense, but did you even understand what we're discussing? You said that Sherlock doing the same strategy as L is out of character; I provided examples of Sherlock doing similar strategies that break the law like L, so his doing the same thing is actually in character for him. This is me correcting your statement, I never said illegal things=strategy. Stop strawmanning me.

You're talking about Sherlock just killing people when you talk about his strategies? What are you arguing if not that?

....that was me providing an example for his willingness to use unconventional strategies that bend the law, L just like L. I never said he would kill Light. I said he was willing to merk Moriaty if it meant destroying his empire. Again, do you even understand anything? Stop putting non-existent words in my mouth

The thing you're responding to didn't even mention Ryuk? This is a strawman-- a rare situation on this website that is, actually, a strawman. Though, it's worth noting, L is capable of planning too, and has had Ryuk work in his plans. Like switching the Death Note between cooperators. So I guess, even though I was not making that point, I still disagree with you.

"Like switching the Death Note between cooperators."

Once again, you are proving that you did not even properly read what I just said. Misa and Rem aren't here. Light can't switch the death note as he needs two books and two shinigami for that, and he only has one each in this scenario. He also won't have the time to find someone like Mikami to replace Misa

How is that remotely a strawman?

I suppose I just don't see the court murdering people to test a book as a likely option. I also note that Sherlock doesn't know about the Death Note at the outset, and Light has time to counter anything he does, so like. This assumption more or less relies on Light being a sitting duck for a long period of time, or getting to the same point as L, where Sherlock probably dies because Light will have his own setup by that point.

Again, this was LITERALLY GOING TO HAPPEN IN CANON. Oh my gosh

If you actually bother rereading/rewatching the Yotsuba arc, you would know that after claiming the Death Note, L was about to test its power, going as far as to convince the UN to bring him a death row inmate. Again, the anime itself considered court testing the notebook to be a valid strategy. It was so good that Light did not manipulate Rem (who isn't here for him to do the same thing) into killing L; had L tested it before his death, both Light and Misa would have been incriminated as Kira. Again, this is literally the plot of the manga. I don't know what came into your mind to say it won't work when the author considered it valid.

Unless you find yourself more reliable than the author, I fail to see why this wont work when L was legit gonna do the same thing.

You also never explained how Light would kill Sherlock before that. Meanwhile, I am here giving strategies that Sherlock could use. You keep saying 'Light would kill him eventually", but how?!?! You are setting a conclusion without explaining how you got there. Also, how tf is Light gonna kill Sherlock if he replicates L's name reveal strategy? Again, that basically made L unkillable for Light, with Light only getting the chance to win due to Misa (who is not here)

The OP doesn't say Misa isn't here? This isn't an actual VS Battle, so the standard assumptions of outside help don't apply. I suppose if @Nonynho intended for Misa to not be allowed, that would be fine, but currently, Misa can and probably will be involved.

I only mentioned her because Light is GONNA need her to counter any of Sherlock's strategies. You also insisted that Light can switch up the notebook:

Like switching the Death Note between cooperators

.....your words, not mine. Do you wanna know the only way Light could ever pull this off? That's right, with MISA and REM. Again, he needed two notebooks and two shigami for this, and he only has one of each here. You are the one relying on Misa for your argument, not me. So don't pull that card against me when it undermines what you just said, than it remotely does to me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bro, no offense, but did you even understand what we're discussing? You said that Sherlock doing the same strategy as L is out of character; I provided examples of Sherlock doing similar strategies that break the law like L, so his doing the same thing is actually in character for him. This is me correcting your statement, I never said illegal things=strategy. Stop strawmanning me.

Bro, no offense, but you do not understand what the word strategy means. I don't know why you're trying to make this into a deeper argument. Breaking the law isn't a strategy. A strategy is a particular plan or method by which you will achieve something. "Breaking the law" is such an abstract term that it bears no relation to what you're arguing. I have no idea what you are arguing, because it does not make any sense. L's strategies would include specific tactics, like handcuffing himself to Light, or having Light join the task force, or shit like that. I am not at fault if you misuse the words you're using, nor is it strawmanning to take the words you're using, at their actual definition.

....that was me providing an example for his willingness to use unconventional strategies that bend the law, L just like L. I never said he would kill Light. I said he was willing to merk Moriaty if it meant destroying his empire. Again, do you even understand anything? Stop putting non-existent words in my mouth

I'm not sure killing people counts much as a strategy either? I think the word you're looking for might indeed by "willingness"-- I believe, surely, that Sherlock is willing to do illegal things, up to and including killing people. But that isn't exactly a strategy. We're talking about strategies. This is a word you have employed multiple times. You have mentioned, as a strategy, the act of killing people. How, then, is it me putting words into your mouth, to point that out as silly?

"Like switching the Death Note between cooperators."

Once again, you are proving that you did not even properly read what I just said. Misa and Rem aren't here. Light can't switch the death note as he needs two books and two shinigami for that, and he only has one each in this scenario. He also won't have the time to find someone like Mikami to replace Misa

How is that remotely a strawman?

You are proving you did not read what I said. You are not the creator of the match. It is not you who sets the conditions. The conditions defined by the match are that everything is the same up to a certain point. This is not a VS battle, and so there is no stipulation regarding Misa and Rem being excluded, or anyone else. So he probably would not start with two people, but would likely come to meet Misa or some other individual before Sherlock managed to convict him.

I urge you to understand the phrases you're using.

A strawman is an argument against what someone was not arguing. You are attacking something fake-- a scarecrow. A straw man. Something unreal made to seem real. I did not make these points prior, and yet you have been debating against them. That is a strawman. I am now also positing that your arguments against these strawmen are also false, and that they are based on stipulations not provided in the fight-- that is, the exclusion of other characters that would seem to be assumed, such as the police officers, Misa, Rem, and so on. The only thing set by the OP is that everything is the same, up to a certain point of Death Note, and with Sherlock swapped with L.

Again, this was LITERALLY GOING TO HAPPEN IN CANON. Oh my gosh

If you actually bother rereading/rewatching the Yotsuba arc, you would know that after claiming the Death Note, L was about to test its power, going as far as to convince the UN to bring him a death row inmate. Again, the anime itself considered court testing the notebook to be a valid strategy. It was so good that Light did not manipulate Rem (who isn't here for him to do the same thing) into killing L; had L tested it before his death, both Light and Misa would have been incriminated as Kira. Again, this is literally the plot of the manga. I don't know what came into your mind to say it won't work when the author considered it valid.

Unless you find yourself more reliable than the author, I fail to see why this wont work when L was legit gonna do the same thing.

You also never explained how Light would kill Sherlock before that. Meanwhile, I am here giving strategies that Sherlock could use. You keep saying 'Light would kill him eventually", but how?!?! You are setting a conclusion without explaining how you got there. Also, how tf is Light gonna kill Sherlock if he replicates L's name reveal strategy? Again, that basically made L unkillable for Light, with Light only getting the chance to win due to Misa (who is not here)

Yeah, but you're not taking the route of canon. The canon got to this point via exhausting tons of other options. Your assumption is that Sherlock will hone in on the book immediately, present it to the court, and they will agree to a controlled killing of someone with it. There's a lot of runway between point A and B that you don't justify. You just argue Sherlock teleports ahead and wins because he's epic and has strategies, like breaking the law.

Light would kill Sherlock with the Death Note. He would probably convince a collaborator to do so, as he did most times in-verse, because he himself would surely be kept on some amount of watch. His collaborators are also generally convinced to take on the Shinigami eyes thing. You seem to now constantly assert the "Rem isn't here, Misa isn't here" thing, even though, again, this is not a baseline assumption. I would even judge by @Nonynho's post here that Misa is explicitly a part of the match, given he mentioned her by name being part of Light's likely plan. You have constantly ignored this element, or pretended it did not exist.

I only mentioned her because Light is GONNA need her to counter any of Sherlock's strategies. You also insisted that Light can switch up the notebook:

Because under the default, and implied, conditions of the fight, he absolutely can, and probably will.

.....your words, not mine. Do you wanna know the only way Light could ever pull this off? That's right, with MISA and REM. Again, he needed two notebooks and two shigami for this, and he only has one of each here. You are the one relying on Misa for your argument, not me. So don't pull that card against me when it undermines what you just said, than it remotely does to me.

You need to be less aggressive, man. It means nothing, this match. Literally a fistful of sand. I have been content on this website for a very long time. My sole piece of advice is to never invest too much of your emotions into a match. Which is very difficult when you become frustrated, but earnestly, for your good and those around you, type out what you want to say, then revise it to something less petty and angry. You'll feel better.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sherlock tends to always be on the location of the case unlike L. But like L he does make make traps to expose the culprit. Like in the 1st book where he called over the killer to his office by pretending to give him the ring he lost. He also tried doing something similar in Hounds of Baskerville when he used the killer's target as bait to catch him. He is also more physically active than L, who mostly relies on proxies. So Sherlock could try stuff like physically sneaking in Light's room to find the Death Note.

Most importantly, Sherlock is not as eogtisical as L. He will mostly focus on catching him instead of chalenging him.

Yeah no. Your post only has Sherlock with the tech knowledge and L's identity. Even if he is smarter, he would take a much longer time than L in this scenario.

Sherlock is gonna have a hard time if Light does the same isolation strategy he did to make a NPA abandon L. At best Sherlock could do the same thing as L and make his own Kira Task Force so he wont be entirely alone.


Honestly Sherlock would definately sneak into Light's room once he identifies him. He would notice the false bottom trap and collect the Death Note and use it to convict Light. Sherlock simply needs to do it before Misa comes into play and merks him. Voting Sherlock honestly.

Actually, wait. You know Misa is involved, and provides a major benefit to Light (as would any other sympathizers he happens to draw in).

I'm going to take your posts as meaning "Misa isn't present yet", to which I'd point out that without a decent strategy of finding Light and keeping himself alive, Sherlock will probably take about as much time as L (if not longer) to do these things. I'll point out the extra care he needs to take since his name isn't obscured as L's is. Light doesn't know it immediately, obviously, but one of L's strategies-- which Sherlock does not use-- is the constant obfuscation of his name, which was uniquely suited to the Kira case. Sherlock's name will be known by people. He will not be as quick as L, since he will be aware that he has to keep his name hidden.

 

[Nonynho]

You seem to now constantly assert the "Rem isn't here, Misa isn't here" thing, even though, again, this is not a baseline assumption. I would even judge by @Nonynho's post here that Misa is explicitly a part of the match, given he mentioned her by name being part of Light's likely plan. You have constantly ignored this element, or pretended it did not exist.

Haven't been keeping up with each side's arguments but i'd like to add that it took months for Misa to be a thing, which i detailed a bit in my timeline-filled post here, and with Sherlock having a different investigation method it is likely she is a non-factor here, at least for a great great while

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Haven't been keeping up with each side's arguments but i'd like to add that it took months for Misa to be a thing, which i detailed a bit in my timeline-filled post here, and with Sherlock having a different investigation method it is likely she is a non-factor here, at least for a great great while

That genuinely isn't really that long. I think Sherlock's investigation method is more confrontational than L's, which I'd take as a disadvantage. He's much more likely to force Light's hand than L, and he's much more likely to give Light the opportunity given the fact that he doesn't take explicit measures to protect his name by default. Either he's more careful, and Misa comes into play eventually, or he's not careful, and Light probably figures out what he needs to know under duress. Sherlock is less technologically capable than L and does not enter the scene with L's tactic of an obscured identity. So like. I don't see Misa as just not being part of this.

 

[Nonynho]

That genuinely isn't really that long. I think Sherlock's investigation method is more confrontational than L's, which I'd take as a disadvantage. He's much more likely to force Light's hand than L, and he's much more likely to give Light the opportunity given the fact that he doesn't take explicit measures to protect his name by default. Either he's more careful, and Misa comes into play eventually, or he's not careful, and Light probably figures out what he needs to know under duress. Sherlock is less technologically capable than L and does not enter the scene with L's tactic of an obscured identity. So like. I don't see Misa as just not being part of this.

I think this conclusion would be fair if not for how quickly L could stablish that it is likely that Kira needed the names of the victims, with evidences that makes it fair to assume that Sherlock could reach the same conclusion in similar time and with Sherlock starting with the L pseudonym.

I think that with how things were going up until Lind L. Taylor's death (where this match starts), it is not hard to assume that after that or a couple more deaths after that, Sherlock could reach the conclusion that at least the name matters

 

[Mr. Bambu]

it is humorous to note that L is rated as an extraordinary genius and Sherlock as a genius, btw. this match being a just-for-fun thing makes official ratings sort of irrelevant but it is funny.

I mean. Yeah. I'm not arguing "Sherlock never figures out the name mechanic", I'm arguing that his name is already known by that point, since he'd already have to work with government officials to get to that point. His name is in a database or something, and that database is probably accessible by Light. So as much as Light needs to obscure his own activities, Sherlock needs to be even more careful, as he lacks the luxuries enjoyed by L. Sherlock needs to simultaneously be more careful than L, and also needs to make more progress in order to get it done before Misa comes in and just guarantees his death.

 

[Doggo]

Bro, no offense, but you do not understand what the word strategy means. I don't know why you're trying to make this into a deeper argument. Breaking the law isn't a strategy. A strategy is a particular plan or method by which you will achieve something. "Breaking the law" is such an abstract term that it bears no relation to what you're arguing. I have no idea what you are arguing, because it does not make any sense. L's strategies would include specific tactics, like handcuffing himself to Light, or having Light join the task force, or shit like that. I am not at fault if you misuse the words you're using, nor is it strawmanning to take the words you're using, at their actual definition.

No, I know what it means. And yes, strategy and breaking the law don't mean the same thing

But you said Sherlock doing the same strategy as L is out of character. I simply gave examples of Sherlock doing similar things to show how willing he is to replicate the same tactics

You are the one of misunderstood my point

I'm not sure killing people counts much as a strategy either? I think the word you're looking for might indeed by "willingness"-- I believe, surely, that Sherlock is willing to do illegal things, up to and including killing people. But that isn't exactly a strategy. We're talking about strategies. This is a word you have employed multiple times. You have mentioned, as a strategy, the act of killing people. How, then, is it me putting words into your mouth, to point that out as silly?

Again, you miss the point. Sherlock bringing the Death Note to court and having them test it is a strategy. You are simplifying it "killing people" when that is not what I'm arguing. Testing and proving the Death Note in front of the court is what I am suggesting, just like what L was gonna do before the Memory Loss plan kicked in.

Yeah, but you're not taking the route of canon. The canon got to this point via exhausting tons of other options. Your assumption is that Sherlock will hone in on the book immediately, present it to the court, and they will agree to a controlled killing of someone with it. There's a lot of runway between point A and B that you don't justify. You just argue Sherlock teleports ahead and wins because he's epic and has strategies, like breaking the law.

I said he can choose to break into Light's room and likely find the Death Note and then bring it. I never argued that he would find it immediately. I literally explained how he will reach that conclusion.

You need to be less aggressive, man. It means nothing, this match. Literally a fistful of sand. I have been content on this website for a very long time. My sole piece of advice is to never invest too much of your emotions into a match. Which is very difficult when you become frustrated, but earnestly, for your good and those around you, type out what you want to say, then revise it to something less petty and angry. You'll feel better.

I'm sorry, I will tone down my tone. I do get heated up in debates, don't worry, I realized how aggressive I was.

I'm going to take your posts as meaning "Misa isn't present yet", to which I'd point out that without a decent strategy of finding Light and keeping himself alive, Sherlock will probably take about as much time as L (if not longer) to do these things. I'll point out the extra care he needs to take since his name isn't obscured as L's is. Light doesn't know it immediately, obviously, but one of L's strategies-- which Sherlock does not use-- is the constant obfuscation of his name, which was uniquely suited to the Kira case. Sherlock's name will be known by people. He will not be as quick as L, since he will be aware that he has to keep his name hidden.

If you read my previous comments, I did argue that Light would eventually have Misa. I just think Sherlock could solve the case fast enough if he immediately decides to find the Death Note and steal it. Unlike L, who chose to plant cameras instead.

it is humorous to note that L is rated as an extraordinary genius and Sherlock as a genius, btw. this match being a just-for-fun thing makes official ratings sort of irrelevant but it is funny.

Personally, I think Light should also be EG too. Bro can't be beating an EG without being EG himself. I also want to point out that Light has insane feats like memorizing the exact locations of 64 cameras using that to find the perfect angle to use the Death Note and succeeded despite L's own absurd observational skills (like seeing the slight change in Light's eye through a low-quality camera, injstantly detecting a drastic shift in perosnality, despite Light's father not noticing how much his son as changed) or literally creating deep fake technology years before it was even introduced, despite his main course being Law and criminology ( this is the equvalent of a medical doctor somehow being able to create Nasa tech years before it was made). Heck Near (who is listed as Genius) should also be EG due to somehow being able to take hordes of information from multiple monitors at once, which is something you just can't do IRL because your brain just normally fried by the information processing (Mello, who is below Near, can also do this; regular Whammy's house students also do this regularly). And Light is above Near.

I also argued that the Light's strategy and planning feats are FAR beyond what a regular genius could do. You can't just erase your memories and somehow predict the actions of several people at once, months ahead, before they happen.

Sherlock should also straight up be EG with feats like memorizing the entire layout of London.



Anyway, as I said on the first page of this thread, Light would straight up win if he stalls long enough and gets Misa. I'm simply under the assumption that Holmes solves this case before it gets to that point (which I believe he could, since he is a lot more physical in his cases than L).

 

[Doggo]

Anyway, I do apologize for my unwarranted aggression, Mr.Bambu. I was admittedly frustrated at you. I will better control myself next time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, I know what it means. And yes, strategy and breaking the law don't mean the same thing

But you said Sherlock doing the same strategy as L is out of character. I simply gave examples of Sherlock doing similar things to show how willing he is to replicate the same tactics

You are the one of misunderstood my point

I would point out that he doesn't employ the same strategies. The name thing, for example, is the main reason L functioned as well as he did against Light, and that is something Sherlock does not hide.

Again, you miss the point. Sherlock bringing the Death Note to court and having them test it is a strategy. You are simplifying it "killing people" when that is not what I'm arguing. Testing and proving the Death Note in front of the court is what I am suggesting, just like what L was gonna do before the Memory Loss plan kicked in.

L got to that point by exhausting a lot of other options and pushing it gradually, over time, thanks to his ability to directly interact with Light and leaving Light constantly on the defensive in regards to his own abilities. As mentioned, Sherlock does not enjoy the same advantages of L, and would have a harder time bringing it to the same point, great detective or no. He has to identify the Death Note as the tool used, he has to either get the courts to agree to the invasive policies, or pull them off and get the court to still work with him in spite of that, and he has to do this all while evading Light's ability to identify him, either with the Shinigami eyes (with or without Misa, depending on how pressed he becomes), or via government information on him, since Sherlock's identity is not so obscured as L's. My comments about "just killing a guy" are referring to the previous thing, where you were talking about strategies: I agree that in the right conditions, Sherlock would likely have the court use the Death Note to kill a person, but I don't agree he just... does it. He doesn't get from Point A to Point B.

I'm sorry, I will tone down my tone. I do get heated up in debates, don't worry, I realized how aggressive I was.

It's alright man. It can suck to determine tone when the discussion gets frustrating. No worries.

If you read my previous comments, I did argue that Light would eventually have Misa. I just think Sherlock could solve the case fast enough if he immediately decides to find the Death Note and steal it. Unlike L, who chose to plant cameras instead.

Yeah, I noticed that, but you keep phrasing it like Misa never shows up. That said, I just outright disagree Sherlock solves anything faster than L. Generally speaking, L solved things about as fast as he could with the information provided, and his main limiters were not knowing what exactly he was dealing with (for a long time), and waiting for Light to give something away. Mixed with his necessarily greater level of caution (lest he die prematurely), I don't think Sherlock will get as far as fast. He might match L's pace, don't think he'll outpace him.

Personally, I think Light should also be EG too. Bro can't be beating an EG without being EG himself. I also want to point out that Light has insane feats like memorizing the exact locations of 64 cameras using that to find the perfect angle to use the Death Note and succeeded despite L's own absurd observational skills (like seeing the slight change in Light's eye through a low-quality camera, injstantly detecting a drastic shift in perosnality, despite Light's father not noticing how much his son as changed) or literally creating deep fake technology years before it was even introduced, despite his main course being Law and criminology ( this is the equvalent of a medical doctor somehow being able to create Nasa tech years before it was made). Heck Near (who is listed as Genius) should also be EG due to somehow being able to take hordes of information from multiple monitors at once, which is something you just can't do IRL because your brain just normally fried by the information processing (Mello, who is below Near, can also do this; regular Whammy's house students also do this regularly). And Light is above Near.

I also argued that the Light's strategy and planning feats are FAR beyond what a regular genius could do. You can't just erase your memories and somehow predict the actions of several people at once, months ahead, before they happen.

Sherlock should also straight up be EG with feats like memorizing the entire layout of London.



Anyway, as I said on the first page of this thread, Light would straight up win if he stalls long enough and gets Misa. I'm simply under the assumption that Holmes solves this case before it gets to that point (which I believe he could, since he is a lot more physical in his cases than L).

To be entirely honest with you, I don't think Light is an EG, and I'm pretty on the fence about L being in the category, too. EG is either the smartest human ever, or up. Obviously both are really intelligent (same for Sherlock), but it's a pretty hefty rating. I will say that I don't think memorizing the layout of London is actually too great of a feat, we've had Gifted characters memorize entire cities before and not bumped their ratings (Samuel Vimes my beloved). I think at best, Death Note guys would be a possibly EG, but more likely just high-end geniuses.

I think Light wins either if Sherlock goes too fast, too directly, since this allows Light to detect his identity (either by correctly getting his information from police databases, which he can obviously do, or by agreeing to the Shinigami Eyes deal if he is truly backed into a corner), or if he goes too slow (by which point Misa enters the play and there's more or less no possible hope of Sherlock successfully winning, since Rem will sacrifice herself to protect Misa, and Misa's fate is tied with Light; one Get Out Of Jail Free Card).

That's my take on it. With clarifications smoothed out, I think I have an appreciable understanding of your take, and would be content to call that a completed discussion, unless you have more input/stuff you want considered/etc.

 

[Nonynho]

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[Eden_Warlock99]

Light FRA

 

[Nonynho]

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[Lou_change]

Does Sherlock have a history in this world or did he just appear?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Does Sherlock have a history in this world or did he just appear?

See page 1.

 

[Nonynho]

Does Sherlock have a history in this world or did he just appear?

Quite laid out in OP, mate!

He's familiar with 2003's tech and is under the L pseudonym. He's taking L's place from the beggining to the Lind L. Taylor situation

 

[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Rex_Eckles]

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Kira's killed everyone else who's interested so the thread will never conclude.

 

[Nonynho]

i'm starting to get this conclusion too lmao

 

[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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i'll keep having hope