Metal vs Ghoul

[Maniaunavailable]

tf kinda matchup is this one

 

[Foriaa]

it's straight buns, not many people knowledgeable on tg, so you gotta rely on arkenis and nik to make the matches

 

[Maniaunavailable]

it's straight buns, not many people knowledgeable on tg, so you gotta rely on arkenis and nik to make the matches

want to add, idk if its listed as a weakness but this kaneki in specific tends to have a mental block his getting his ass beat, shouldnt that also be a weakness here

 

[Foriaa]

it's usually in his kakuja, which is restricted here, although i do think he'll start to lose his mind if he takes enough brain damage, like what happened against arima.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

it's usually in his kakuja, which is restricted here, although i do think he'll start to lose his mind if he takes enough brain damage, like what happened against arima.

Ik, btu he still gonna start losing his shi once he gets 89 stabs to his head

 

[Foriaa]

would that need to be listed? taking brain damage of any sort for most characters cause some level of deterioration, he doesn't seem to have this problem though post-dragon where he came back from puddles and mush

 

[Maniaunavailable]

would that need to be listed? taking brain damage of any sort for most characters cause some level of deterioration, he doesn't seem to have this problem though post-dragon where he came back from puddles and mush

it should, he starts to get a hold of his regen when his the black reaper-king of the ghouls

 

[Foriaa]

i'll tell m2 to add that to the sandbox for his new profile

 

[Maniaunavailable]

i'll tell m2 to add that to the sandbox for his new profile

aight thx

 

[NikHelton]

that's all cast and nik

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Foriaa]

I have no idea what you're talking about

majority of the matchups were done by you, cast and i think robo?

 

[NikHelton]

majority of the matchups were done by you, cast and i think robo?

Yes, but there's nothing terrible about it. Either it's a fairly heated debate, or no one wants to argue

 

[Foriaa]

but there's nothing terrible about it.

I think some of them are fun, like the Kaneki vs Sukuna matchup, but some of them are also kind of shit with no resistance to Kaneki's arguments.

 

[NikHelton]

Regarding the match, I clearly see ways for both of them to win. It's just that Kaneki is limited in his abilities, while Anita has more obvious win-cons.

It's a good match.

 

[NikHelton]

I think some of them are fun, like the Kaneki vs Sukuna matchup, but some of them are also kind of shit with no resistance to Kaneki's arguments.

Just because the participants themselves organize the FRA train doesn't mean the characters are glaizers or that the matches are bad. I've often heard that people don't like participating in matches with Kaneki because of me and you, because we argue a lot. That's ******* absurd. Isn't the whole point of these matches the arguments?

 

[Foriaa]

I think the fun part is def getting to discuss how these characters would win and things of that nature, but, I'd appreciate if people can give more push back when it comes to matches in general. A good example is the Doomsday match, that shit was borderline farming

 

[NikHelton]

I think the fun part is def getting to discuss how these characters would win and things of that nature, but, I'd appreciate if people can give more push back when it comes to matches in general. A good example is the Doomsday match, that shit was borderline farming

Yes, Doomsday, who demonstrated the ability to adapt to ******* intangibility, and could adapt to Kaneki's regeneration, and also had some pretty awesome speed enhancers. But no one wanted to compete for him. And I've been wanting to do this match for a long time.

 

[Robo432343]

i made kaneki vs pochita and kaneki vs sukuna
i revived tokyo ghoul

 

[Arkenis]

"I put pineapple on pizza and made a green eggs n ham sandwich"
"I revived TG by using the mc in matches"
Someone please get the Juuzo vs Kikoru match back alive

 

[NikHelton]

i made kaneki vs pochita and kaneki vs sukuna
i revived tokyo ghoul

Now I know who the real hero is here

 

[NikHelton]

Okay, regarding the match

AP and Durability - their stats are quite relative, however both possess attacks with a limited area of contact. Alita's blade and piercing/slashing attacks will be dangerous for both. So contrary to Foriaa's doubts, the 30% difference won't play a role. Imagine a teenager with a knife against an adult. Even if the adult is twice as strong - would that save them from being stabbed?

Speed - on one hand, Alita has an advantage in attack speed. On the other hand, Kaneki's speed is baseline, while activating kagune significantly increases speed and reaction, which Kaneki should already have higher (as will be stated in the updated profile) and the speed of the kagune's attacks themselves is also higher. Kaneki should have a speed advantage against base Alita and should be relative to or not far behind the speed of her strongest attacks.

Accelerated perception and analytical prediction in Kaneki and Alita compensate for each other. While Alita's analytical prediction is better, Kaneki can move instinctively, but also studies the opponent in battle, adapting to them and reading several steps ahead.

The sensing and enhanced senses of both won't play a decisive role in matches, but they should also be relatively equal. Alita has better vision, but it seems Kaneki's range of coverage will be higher.

Kaneki has better attack range and a greater number of limbs, which will allow him to flexibly attack from all sides and from underground, giving him an advantage coupled with his LS.

As Arkenis said, Kaneki sees damage spreading through his kagune and deactivates it, adapts, and then builds a tactic to avoid those strikes and go on the aggressive offense. His AD still works, even if it's not as impressive as in other keys, so as long as we're not talking about brain damage, as the battle progresses he'll surpass her in stats.

The question is what happens first - will he miscalculate and get oneshot, or outsmart Alita and tear her to pieces?

 

[Arkenis]

Accelerated perception and analytical prediction in Kaneki and Alita compensate for each other. While Alita's analytical prediction is better, Kaneki can move instinctively, but also studies the opponent in battle, adapting to them and reading several steps ahead.

Alita could move instinctively too

• Instinctive Action, Memory Manipulation (Alita's body can activate abilities she has no knowledge of during fights like her plasma jet and mhd propulsion. Also can use Panzer Kunst off instinct. Alita while fighting will have memories rushing in just for a moment, allowing her to pull off abilities from her past)

And yeah Kaneki can study/read his opponent, but Alita can also do it, she shouldn't have to though since panzer kunst is superior to human martial arts.

As Arkenis said, Kaneki sees damage spreading through his kagune and deactivates it, adapts, and then builds a tactic to avoid those strikes and go on the aggressive offense. His AD still works, even if it's not as impressive as in other keys, so as long as we're not talking about brain damage, as the battle progresses he'll surpass her in stats.

Can't build much up of a development against vibration being put into the body. All he can do is try to avoid it.

The question is what happens first - will he miscalculate and get oneshot, or outsmart Alita and tear her to pieces?

Doubt she'd miscalculate but if she did and he could land his kagune, she's still able to fight broken apart.

 

[NikHelton]

Alita could move instinctively too

• Instinctive Action, Memory Manipulation (Alita's body can activate abilities she has no knowledge of during fights like her plasma jet and mhd propulsion. Also can use Panzer Kunst off instinct. Alita while fighting will have memories rushing in just for a moment, allowing her to pull off abilities from her past)

Well, Alita will have a slight advantage in speed, which Kaneki will compensate for with better speed and adaptation

And yeah Kaneki can study/read his opponent, but Alita can also do it, she shouldn't have to though since panzer kunst is superior to human martial arts.

How cool is this martial art?

Can't build much up of a development against vibration being put into the body. All he can do is try to avoid it.

He simply deactivates his kagune the first time he senses a threat, and then avoids attacks. As far as I understand, Alita attacks not only with vibrations but also with other weapons, which will initiate the process of Kaneki's AD.

Doubt she'd miscalculate but if she did and he could land his kagune, she's still able to fight broken apart.

But you yourself said it was his wincon. Even if she's capable, that doesn't mean she'll do it as effectively. Kaneki will just have to finish her off carefully.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I was gonna vote Alita.
But now I’ll wait for Arkenis’ next response
Also following

 

[Arkenis]

How cool is this martial art?

Check her profiles and read the scaling on the verse page. Its superior to all forms of human martial arts, lets her fight in any gravity, she mixes other forms of martial arts into it, its great for fighting people bigger than her which he is, and it's got its own acrobats too.

He simply deactivates his kagune the first time he senses a threat, and then avoids attacks. As far as I understand, Alita attacks not only with vibrations but also with other weapons, which will initiate the process of Kaneki's AD.

I don't see him endlessly avoiding her, especially since he needs to get in close to ever hit. Her senses and power null should also let her cancel stuff out in close combat. And the only way the AD starts is if Alita does damage, which would come from herzta before she pulls out her swords.

But you yourself said it was his wincon. Even if she's capable, that doesn't mean she'll do it as effectively. Kaneki will just have to finish her off carefully.

Yeah it is his win con, she just has counters and if he isn't crushing her entirely, then she can still move.

 

[NikHelton]

Check her profiles and read the scaling on the verse page. Its superior to all forms of human martial arts, lets her fight in any gravity, she mixes other forms of martial arts into it, its great for fighting people bigger than her which he is, and it's got its own acrobats too.

Well, in hand-to-hand combat, she has a clear advantage. They both possess enhanced senses, instinctive actions, and enemy reading, making it more of a close match than a complete domination. However, the extra limbs in the form of a flexible kagune give her an advantage. Kaneki only needs to adapt to her attacks briefly to catch her wrist or rip off her arms.

He could at least intentionally target her arms, tempting her to use Hearthstone on her kagune, while he detaches it and takes advantage of the opportunity while her hands are occupied. Or he could force her to block a kagune attack, and upon contact, the tentacle could change density to completely envelop the limb/weapon and perform an LS crush.

Considering how many abilities they share, I imagine they'll be evenly matched, but the extra limbs and speed advantage would still be a bonus.

I don't see him endlessly avoiding her, especially since he needs to get in close to ever hit. Her senses and power null should also let her cancel stuff out in close combat. And the only way the AD starts is if Alita does damage, which would come from herzta before she pulls out her swords.

If she sees him desperately avoiding her attacks, she'll adapt and use other attacks, even from a distance. She doesn't know about AD, so fighting with a method other than Hertz sounds perfectly logical.

Furthermore, Kaneki can actively destroy the environment, raise dust clouds, and shift the battle to vertical combat, as well as drop a large amount of weight on Alita to immobilize her.

By the way, if she tries to block his attack head-on, she risks breaking her spine, as happened with Shinohara and Centipede.

Yeah it is his win con, she just has counters and if he isn't crushing her entirely, then she can still move.

I don't think it'll help her much, but I hear you.

I like this match. So far, I'm leaning closer to Incon, but I'm quite willing to vote for either Alita or Kaneki.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Voting Alita FRA

 

[Arkenis]

Well, in hand-to-hand combat, she has a clear advantage. They both possess enhanced senses, instinctive actions, and enemy reading, making it more of a close match than a complete domination. However, the extra limbs in the form of a flexible kagune give her an advantage. Kaneki only needs to adapt to her attacks briefly to catch her wrist or rip off her arms.

And in that moment can place a herzta or even nullify his attack.

He could at least intentionally target her arms, tempting her to use Hearthstone on her kagune, while he detaches it and takes advantage of the opportunity while her hands are occupied. Or he could force her to block a kagune attack, and upon contact, the tentacle could change density to completely envelop the limb/weapon and perform an LS crush.

Could I see when he's done that with his base kagune? Her hands won't be occupied really, its a simple touch and can just do it if he tries attacking from a different angle.

If she sees him desperately avoiding her attacks, she'll adapt and use other attacks, even from a distance. She doesn't know about AD, so fighting with a method other than Hertz sounds perfectly logical.

Nah she always keeps it a close combat fight. That's just how she fights even when she has several long ranged attacks, either does them up close or just gets in close. Herzta isn't a method, its part of her martial arts, it'll always been part of combat for her.

Furthermore, Kaneki can actively destroy the environment, raise dust clouds, and shift the battle to vertical combat, as well as drop a large amount of weight on Alita to immobilize her.

She can fight in any gravity and has great acrobats so she'll literally be doing flips and twists around him if he does. She can just destroy the debris with herzta or punch it or cut it up with her plasma jet.

By the way, if she tries to block his attack head-on, she risks breaking her spine, as happened with Shinohara and Centipede.

She'll just nullify it.

 

[NikHelton]

And in that moment can place a herzta or even nullify his attack.


Could I see when he's done that with his base kagune? Her hands won't be occupied really, its a simple touch and can just do it if he tries attacking from a different angle.


Nah she always keeps it a close combat fight. That's just how she fights even when she has several long ranged attacks, either does them up close or just gets in close. Herzta isn't a method, its part of her martial arts, it'll always been part of combat for her.


She can fight in any gravity and has great acrobats so she'll literally be doing flips and twists around him if he does. She can just destroy the debris with herzta or punch it or cut it up with her plasma jet.


She'll just nullify it.

I feel like you just nullified all his wincons. If Hertza can be in every attack and she negates her LS advantage, can you write me a scenario where Kaneki wins?

 

[Arkenis]

I feel like you just nullified all his wincons. If Hertza can be in every attack and she negates her LS advantage, can you write me a scenario where Kaneki wins?

She doesn't passively negate it. In order to do that she's gotta read his ki and sync hers up with his. She won't be doing this in every strike. Herzta though very likely will be there every time.

The same scenario it's been from the start. On the chance he's able to successfully evade her herzta to the torso or head, and just almost come out from a skill stomp, he only needs one grab on her head and crushes her or snaps her neck. Only issue is better acrobatics and better counters make Kaneki's win con way harder to land.

I'd say 8/10 she wins. Her senses could mess up and she gets batista bombed due to it. It's how she lost against Toji, thinking she already dodged but didn't and got annihilated.

 

[NikHelton]

She doesn't passively negate it. In order to do that she's gotta read his ki and sync hers up with his. She won't be doing this in every strike. Herzta though very likely will be there every time.

The same scenario it's been from the start. On the chance he's able to successfully evade her herzta to the torso or head, and just almost come out from a skill stomp, he only needs one grab on her head and crushes her or snaps her neck. Only issue is better acrobatics and better counters make Kaneki's win con way harder to land.

I'd say 8/10 she wins. Her senses could mess up and she gets batista bombed due to it. It's how she lost against Toji, thinking she already dodged but didn't and got annihilated.

So, basically, she can neutralize his LS in most cases, uses Hertz in almost every attack, and wins 8 out of 10 times. Honestly, it doesn't sound like a close fight anymore. It feels like Kaneki needs Alita's hands and feet tied for him to win.

 

[Arkenis]

So, basically, she can neutralize his LS in most cases, uses Hertz in almost every attack, and wins 8 out of 10 times. Honestly, it doesn't sound like a close fight anymore. It feels like Kaneki needs Alita's hands and feet tied for him to win.

Its a close match. Every match isn't supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be doable and reasonable that either could win, even in the stomp page it's essentially stated as decisive/close matches:

1. Because one side can use/activate their win con first, aka herzta is more likely to be landed than Kaneki goring her.
2. Alita could win because her win con is used immediately. Kaneki could win cause his kagune is used immediately.
3. Both are evenly matched in some regards like stats or stamina, but due to Kaneki's regen makes it harder for Alita to land a killing blow (we've gone over this already, Kaneki can hear and understand weird noise = dangerous), causing Alita to have to push herself more and be riskier to land her herzta.
4. Kaneki's regen makes him unkillable except for the herzta. Her swords won't work he can regen, her martial arts isn't gonna kill him, basically nothing she has will kill except for herzta.

I think you said it already but this is like a kid with a big knife vs an adult. If that kid can land the stab, adult dies, if not, knife gets knocked out hand and kid gets beat.

 

[Arkenis]

I also wanna introduce the fact this is SBA, aka 4km starting distance. Alita's quite stealthy so she could just come at it from that angle, versus Kaneki's enhanced senses could let him know her general direction to some extent although the vibrational sensory Irimi shows isn't something Kaneki learned yet, he should still have heightened hearing nonetheless.

Alita also has echolocation too, so I could definitely see them sensing one another and tryna get the jump on one another

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump.

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Alita seems to have quite the upper hand, you can write me down as voting for her

 

[NikHelton]

Its a close match. Every match isn't supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be doable and reasonable that either could win, even in the stomp page it's essentially stated as decisive/close matches

Close and "Alita wins 8 fights out of 10" is not something you can call close

Its a close match. Every match isn't supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be doable and reasonable that either could win, even in the stomp page it's essentially stated as decisive/close matches:

1. Because one side can use/activate their win con first, aka herzta is more likely to be landed than Kaneki goring her.

Kaneki in this form can only avoid Hertza, while Alita, as you described, can negate his kagune. She either detonates it upon first physical contact or neutralizes its power, as you described earlier.

Their heightened senses overlap.
Their instinctive actions overlap.
Their analytical prediction and information analysis overlap.
Their accelerated perception overlaps.
Kaneki's advantage in reaction and attack speed and Alita's skills overlap.
Hertza, which Alita relies on completely in battle, completely overlaps Kaneki's regeneration.

So, we have Kaneki with no advantage in this fight. You mentioned LS, but to use it, you need a hit, which, from what you've written, is impossible without being hit by Hertza. Moreover, you said that she can somehow neutralize his power.

1. Both are evenly matched in some regards like stats or stamina, but due to Kaneki's regen makes it harder for Alita to land a killing blow (we've gone over this already, Kaneki can hear and understand weird noise = dangerous), causing Alita to have to push herself more and be riskier to land her herzta.
   
   
2. Kaneki's regen makes him unkillable except for the herzta. Her swords won't work he can regen, her martial arts isn't gonna kill him, basically nothing she has will kill except for herzta.

You've already said that she relies primarily on close combat, almost excluding ranged combat. You also said that her fighting style is based on hertza. There's no reason to take its regenerative abilities into account if they're neutralized by her main move.

I also wanna introduce the fact this is SBA, aka 4km starting distance. Alita's quite stealthy so she could just come at it from that angle, versus Kaneki's enhanced senses could let him know her general direction to some extent although the vibrational sensory Irimi shows isn't something Kaneki learned yet, he should still have heightened hearing nonetheless.

Noticing each other early won't give them an advantage, especially considering they both have acrobatics and heightened senses.
This match would be ruined even if both sides had prior knowledge, because Alita is a mirror image of Kaneki, only with Overhaul's touch-kill ability.

I called it close when I thought hertza was some kind of special move and trump card. But if she relies on it as heavily as Kaneki does on his kaguna, that's unfair. At the very least, Kaneki can't create a kaguna indefinitely, while Alita can use hertza without limit. Also, hertza neutralizes a kagune when it hits, but a kagune doesn't neutralize hertza.

If hertza is a full-blown dura neg, then you could remove the kakuji limitation. Otherwise, I'm leaning toward Foriaa's opinion.