Paper Mario Mixing and Making (Another Mario Profile Revision)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is by no means a valid 1-A context. To follow up on your example, Mxy is using his unique abilities to intentionally bring Superman up to his level. A character accidentally dropping the book is not that - the book opens and the characters flow out. No mechanism can be used to interpret this as anything other than a contextual but inherent property of either the universe or the matter within that universe, which inherently breaks the possibility of 1-A. The Paper Mario book is not a less-real universe, it is an unconventionally behaving portal to an equally-real universe.

Actually, IDK corrected you, whether it's intentional or not isn't what matters. Even a human from 6th dimension pressing a button to transport a 3D character to the 6th dimension would have the same power effect.

A universe can be contained within an object without a R>F gap. I suppose me calling it a "portal" is not quite what I was trying to express, though.

The "portal argument" or "Reality fiction equalization" argument wouldn't really work as a valid counterargument if the entire plot is that Bowser and Paper Bowser plan to trap the Mario bros in the book and then burn it. It would supposedly imply they're merely trapped as opposed erased outright in theory. But in execution, Flipside would still exist by that logic and would therefore enable Mario Bros to return to the mushroom kingdom. More over, taking this statement at face value literally pinpoints it not being a portal but rather a container for the cosmology.

You are fully aware that 1-A Mario is a ludicrous concept that could never possibly get accepted and thus the only mileage you can try to get out of it is to try and argue against my rejection.

You could really call 1-A any verse a "Ludicrous concept." But it doesn't change the fact that rules are still rules and it definitely doesn't excuse people acting like selfish jerks or condescending egomaniacs about it; literally nothing does. The staff's goal is to maintain the balance of the wiki/platform however massive upgrades or downgrades that happen and not to insist any verse specific agendas. Easier said than done perhaps, but everyone has their own interpretation on what is "More accurate," which a lot of people need to be more open to that.

You aren't exactly putting together an iron-solid argument, are you?

It isn't against the rules to be a spokesperson, especially when done in an open-minded or polite matter. And there were no "threats" only questions. Could they be annoying, perhaps. But calling it threatening is kind of bold and accusatory. As mediator, I like to have civilized discussions rather than actually "argue" per say. And I do not have to agree with something to help per say. That's literally the main job of being a Bureaucrat or a Super Moderator.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

More over, taking this statement at face value literally pinpoints it not being a portal but rather a container for the cosmology.

I just want to add that this statement is consistent with how the Japanese Version of the game presents the way the book is.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Huh. Welp, it's-a BUMP time!

 

[Thunderman101]

Huh. Welp, it's-a BUMP time!

If we're going into dimensional stuff couldn't we argue the entire verse is 2-d cause inside a book and therefore 11-c. Like You can't even make the higher dimensional argument because the characters are specifically in a book and 2D paper compared to the real world. This is explicitly different from hde

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If we're going into dimensional stuff couldn't we argue the entire verse is 2-d cause inside a book and therefore 11-c. Like You can't even make the higher dimensional argument because the characters are specifically in a book and 2D paper compared to the real world. This is explicitly different from hde

Paper objects are still 3D; it's just extremely thin on one of those dimensions. You can tell it's 3D because stacking multiple sheets of Paper can basically form a box; which wouldn't be the case if it was actually 2D. Furthermore, Paper Mario's world still has flow of space-time as well as consistent "Infinite amounts of 3D space" statements and numerous cosmic sized structures and parallel to countless universes that are also cosmic sized individually. Regardless of its relation to "Meat Mario's world" its own parameters have its own criteria to be Low 2-C at minimum. So that destroys any arguments about being 11-A. You seem to be getting Dimensional tiering mixed up with Reality-Fiction stuff.

Not that any of this is relevant, but Paper Jam's plot isn't the only thing hint about Mario being a metafiction or having R>F implication. Super Mario Maker series has been used to argue for R>F stuff due to Mario being treated like a game developer who designs his own levels, but I interpret that is more in line with Arale's plot manipulation than I do 1-A statements. But as I said, this is about Paper Mario and Meat Mario and whether or not they're the same person. Which there is some truth that Mario hardly has much real consistency and at best some loose continuity with pseudo consistency. However, Dry Bowser and Bowser both appearing in Mario Kart doesn't change them being the same person in NSMB for DS, or the fact that Baby versions of Mario characters appear in countless sports. Which that's what Dino Ranger Black used as the real context for Mario and Paper Mario. I still think Paper Mario being a slight past version of Mario is my interpretation. But I should also quote what Armor said earlier in this thread.

Mario doesn't have "lore". Mario, outside of the M&L RPGs referencing previous games in the series, has an extremely loose continuity mainly built on the back of references and self-contradicting developer statements. There is no such thing as the consistency you are pretending exists.

It wasn't his intention per say, but he quite literally admitted to basically saying "Mario is a metafiction." Which being a metafiction doesn't prove of 1-A tiers, but it is often used as supporting suggestions. Mario characters breaking the 4th wall is not uncommon; there are plenty of cases where Cranky Kong makes comments about throughout the DKC trilogy brags about his "Back in my days" or even acknowledges his own "8 Bit" vs "16 Bit" transitions. WarioWare series also makes references about previous games or "Characters being made of pixels." Not to mention Cranky Kong is infamous for is "32 meg..? That would be more than 30 games in my day, and they'd be great games, too!" If we took Color Splash literally, we could might as well call every single Mario game ever another universe within the same multiverse even if they were direct sequels to previous games. Implying it would actually seem like a Golden Egg fallacy to single out Paper Mario, but we obviously rejected the alternative idea of just breaking the profiles of ever Mario character ever into each and every profile for each and every game he appears in. Especially when there are too many obvious connections even if loose in other areas to ignore. Even a reference plot of Super Mario Bros 2 happens in a NPC Paper Toad's dream except slightly different and ends with Wart winning as listed by the OP.

Regardless of outcome, we can still literally conclude that when it comes to video game verses, Mario series is literally the magnum opus of what a metafiction is. Which means it has to qualify for some kind of metafiction tropes. But that's also up to interpretation, but I am still ultimately in the support of Mario and Paper Mario being merged.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think Paper Mario is it's own thing because there's an entire game where one of the main plot points is that the PM characters come from a parallel universe.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I disagree with treating the two Marios as the same person as there’s an entire game that contradicts that, however the events of pre-Sticker Star games should be a part of the regular universe. It seems like Paper Mario used to just be an artstyle difference, but then was retconned into being an alternate universe where everything was actually made of paper both visually and mechanically. Since earlier games are referenced as being part of the main universe, making the pre-Sticker Star games a part of both universes makes sense to me.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It seems like Paper Mario used to just be an artstyle difference, but then was retconned into being an alternate universe where everything was actually made of paper both visually and mechanically.

Generally, that might have been a valid point if a post-Paper Jam game like Superstar Saga DX don't have. Blocks of Nostalgia noting a material difference between the other blocks and the other Mario blocks (which mention the original Paper Mario Game).

 

[Galactidot]

I think Paper Mario is it's own thing because there's an entire game where one of the main plot points is that the PM characters come from a parallel universe.

I think this has already been and is currently being addressed, though. Please see what DDM has to say before bringing out the sarcastic reaction images?

 

[Dust_Collector]

However, Dry Bowser and Bowser both appearing in Mario Kart doesn't change them being the same person in NSMB for DS, or the fact that Baby versions of Mario characters appear in countless sports.

These aren't good examples, Mario Kart has no plot whatsoever so having something like Bowser and Dry Bowser being seperate playable characters doesn't mean much, that's purely a gameplay thing. Many of the sports games don't have plots either, and if they do don't have the adult and baby versions show up at all. The newest game as an example is about the adults becoming babies, with their roster slots only existing for multiplayer purposes. Paper Jam is a wholeass RPG where it's a major plot point that the PM characters come from another universe inside that book, Bowser and Dry Bowser being different options in Mario Kart Wii is not the same thing as that.

Closest there is to anything like that is Island Tour with Dry Bowser being a minion for regular Bowser in that bonus tower mode. And even then he's not treated as an alternate form / version of Bowser, he's a "close family friend" in that game so it's not even meant to be Bowser coexisting with his skeletal self, he's somehow got a friend with the same name and apperance as his own undead form (Bowser family and friends lore is so ****** up, they can't even decide if the blue Bowser in lost levels is just a generic imposter Bowser like the rest or if he's Bowser's younger, sometimes older, twin brother lmao).

If we took Color Splash literally, we could might as well call every single Mario game ever another universe within the same multiverse even if they were direct sequels to previous games.

Can you go into more detail about this, I have no idea how Colour Splash could potentially even lead to something like that.

 

[Thunderman101]

I'm confused on what were arguing for here

 

[JPTheGamer]

I'm confused on what were arguing for here

Basically, we're trying to argue for the Paper Mario & Mario profiles being merged into one

 

[Thunderman101]

Ik but it's somehow gone into 1-a mayro

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Generally, that might have been a valid point if a post-Paper Jam game like Superstar Saga DX don't have. Blocks of Nostalgia noting a material difference between the other blocks and the other Mario blocks (which mention the original Paper Mario Game).

That just means they were reconfirming PM64 still happens in the regular universe and the two worlds have similar events. The reference being in the remake is the main reason I think classic Paper Mario games are canon to regular Mario, and also why I think there’s a difference between classic Paper Mario (basically just an artstyle change and can work in both worlds) and modern Paper Mario (actually made of paper and can only work in a separate world from the regular one).

I do agree that the Mario series treats a lot of artstyle stuff changing as some canon part of the world. However when the game immediately before Superstar Saga DX establishes that the paper world is separate, I don’t think the world morphs to the extent that the modern Paper Mario games do. In those games the characters are entirely aware they and their world is made of paper, while in the classic games they’re not (as far as I can remember at least).

 

[Galactidot]

That just means they were reconfirming PM64 still happens in the regular universe and the two worlds have similar events. The reference being in the remake is the main reason I think classic Paper Mario games are canon to regular Mario, and also why I think there’s a difference between classic Paper Mario (basically just an artstyle change and can work in both worlds) and modern Paper Mario (actually made of paper and can only work in a separate world from the regular one).

I do agree that the Mario series treats a lot of artstyle stuff changing as some canon part of the world. However when the game immediately before Superstar Saga DX establishes that the paper world is separate, I don’t think the world morphs to the extent that the modern Paper Mario games do. In those games the characters are entirely aware they and their world is made of paper, while in the classic games they’re not (as far as I can remember at least).

I honestly fw the Paper Mario pre and post retcon stuff here

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

That just means they were reconfirming PM64 still happens in the regular universe and the two worlds have similar events.

I might need to share the scan again, but Superstar Saga DX had the Paper Mario block get referred to as a "seemingly soft yet firm" material, implying that the OG Paper Mario game has the same physiology as other Paper Mario Games.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Many of the sports games don't have plots either, and if they do don't have the adult and baby versions show up at all. The newest game as an example is about the adults becoming babies, with their roster slots only existing for multiplayer purposes.

For this, the description of the Baby Characters in Mario Superstar Baseball were there due to an ignored Time Paradox.

Baby Luigi Character Profile (Mario Superstar Baseball Exhibition Records): "The younger of the baby Mario brothers. After being abducted by Kamek, he was rescued by Yoshi and Baby Mario. If you see him and Luigi in the same game, try to ignore the temporal paradox. Baby Luigi is quick around the bases but doesn't hit for power. He is, after all, a baby."

 

[IDK3465]

Honestly, I don’t hate the idea of splitting up the profiles into a pre and post retcon sorta deal, as the PM games taking place in the main universe definitely was the initial intention with them, it’s just that, in a post PJ world, the main universe and the paper universe are more often than not treated as separate.

This does unfortunately mean that pre-retcon characters may only scale to 6-C, as there’s only one High 6-A feat from before the retcon, but I’m honestly pretty ok with that all things considered

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

the main universe and the paper universe are more often than not treated as separate.

I'd actually disagree, the only game that remotely entails a separation was indeed Paper Jam. Other than that, Nintendo has zero problem with mixing the two together without much care for a distinction. Games such as Color Splash and the Origami King always take time to reference older Mario games such as Super Mario Bros & Super Mario Bros 3. Even Color Splash went out of its way to reference Mario's 30th Anniversary (when Paper Mario is a much younger series).

 

[IDK3465]

I'd actually disagree, the only game that remotely entails a separation was indeed Paper Jam. Other than that, Nintendo has zero problem with mixing the two together without much care for a distinction. Games such as Color Splash and the Origami King always take time to reference older Mario games such as Super Mario Bros & Super Mario Bros 3. Even Color Splash went out of its way to reference Mario's 30th Anniversary (when Paper Mario is a much younger series).

I’m not denying that there is a lot of references in post-PJ games, but the fact that an entire game’s plot revolves around the two being separate unfortunately feels pretty damning to me. It’d be different if it was just a minor gag where Paper Mario showed up once, but the fact that it’s central to the storyline and how the only evidence against it comes from simple one-off references, I’m sorry, but I kinda have to disagree here

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It’d be different if it was just a minor gag where Paper Mario showed up once, but the fact that it’s central to the storyline and how the only evidence against it comes from simple one-off references, I kinda have to disagree here

I would ask, then, why these references would even exist. Why make references to older Mario games post-Paper Jam if the goal of the writers and devs was to make a clear separation between The Paper World and the Main One? Why bother to let in a direct reference to Paper Mario post-Paper Jam in Superstar Saga, where it's called a past adventure? Why bring up the OG Mario's 30th anniversary if this difference was so important? Why not solely rely on referencing past Paper Mario Games during The Origami King? All of these questions don't get answered when one dismisses these as "one-offs".

The reason I think my OP is a solid interpretation is that it's able to consider the many facets of evidence that is presented across the Mario series, while the counter requires that one ignore or handwave pieces of evidence to keep their interpretation in line. We see that Mario can encounter variations of himself, which are both in his past and have physiological differences between then. We see how Mario can himself alter his makeup to mimic how we used to look in older games. The only reason I bring up the new Super Mario Galaxy evidence is to present the issue I faced, which was how the broader Mario world could change its physiology; which cycles served as a reasonable explanation for, and made everything workable and consistent.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Please see what DDM has to say before bringing out the sarcastic reaction images?

Nah, @Dust_Collector was funny

 

[IDK3465]

I would ask, then, why these references would even exist. Why make references to older Mario games post-Paper Jam if the goal of the writers and devs was to make a clear separation between The Paper World and the Main One? Why bother to let in a direct reference to Paper Mario post-Paper Jam in Superstar Saga, where it's called a past adventure? Why bring up the OG Mario's 30th anniversary if this difference was so important? Why not solely rely on referencing past Paper Mario Games during The Origami King? All of these questions don't get answered when one dismisses these as "one-offs".

The reason I think my OP is a solid interpretation is that it's able to consider the many facets of evidence that is presented across the Mario series, while the counter requires that one ignore or handwave pieces of evidence to keep their interpretation in line. We see that Mario can encounter variations of himself, which are both in his past and have physiological differences between then. We see how Mario can himself alter his makeup to mimic how we used to look in older games. The only reason I bring up the new Super Mario Galaxy evidence is to present the issue I faced, which was how the broader Mario world could change its physiology; which cycles served as a reasonable explanation for, and made everything workable and consistent.

As I've said before, I'm still neutral on the merge. I'm fine if this thread goes either way, and I can see both sides of the argument. I just wanted to say that I'm currently leaning towards Ghengiroo's suggestion, as it feels most correct to me. I'm not against your proposal, I just wanted to say I'm fine with this other option

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

As I've said before, I'm still neutral on the merge. I'm fine if this thread goes either way, and I can see both sides of the argument. I just wanted to say that I'm currently leaning towards Ghengiroo's suggestion, as it feels most correct to me. I'm not against your proposal, I just wanted to say I'm fine with this other option

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining that!

 

[JPTheGamer]

As I've said before, I'm still neutral on the merge. I'm fine if this thread goes either way, and I can see both sides of the argument. I just wanted to say that I'm currently leaning towards Ghengiroo's suggestion, as it feels most correct to me. I'm not against your proposal, I just wanted to say I'm fine with this other option

I'm in the same boat

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I wouldn't mind keeping the split if the split was specifically about Sticker Star and beyond; now it is noted that TTYD powers and abilities are what PJ Paper Mario has and obvious his stuff takes place after the older titles. So I'd say that the first three Paper Mario titles as still canon to both Marios' pasts.

Many of the sports games don't have plots either, and if they do don't have the adult and baby versions show up at all. The newest game as an example is about the adults becoming babies, with their roster slots only existing for multiplayer purposes.

The baby versions of Mario characters appear in Mario Super Sluggers' story modes.

Can you go into more detail about this, I have no idea how Colour Splash could potentially even lead to something like that.

Color Splash has a running gag of traveling to other past video games iirc, and basically calls both Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World "Alternate dimensions" due to being different video game entries. It's also kind of a running gag throughout Mario RPG series in general where all Mario titles are existing video games in Mario lore. Prominent examples are Francis from SPM and the Petalburg Toad.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Color Splash has a running gag of traveling to other past video games iirc, and basically calls both Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World "Alternate dimensions" due to being different video game entries.

I cannot recall an instance were Super Mario World is mentioned in Color Splash, but Super Mario Bros 3 is mentioned in my OP:

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It's also kind of a running gag throughout Mario RPG series in general where all Mario titles are existing video games in Mario lore. Prominent examples are Francis from SPM and the Petalburg Toad.

It's actually also a running gag in the Mario series, full stop. Nintendo is a real company in Mario's world, as advertised in a multitude of Mario Kart Games, and Nintendo Consoles are ready and playable in DKCR and DKCTP. I think there's also an instance of DK characters on an N64 in DK64, but my memory might be off.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It's a BUMP Time!

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Bumping le thread again!

 

[CitRusReality64]

I agree with merging the mario profiles

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Following and agree.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Clockluckdoo]

disagree with thread.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

ALRIGHTY!

Now, I do think enough time has passed for a quick summary check, just to keep this thread nice and tidy, eh?

Now, from what I can see; the core argument that many seem to be harping on, is the existence of Paper Jam presenting the idea that it's a crossover between the Mario & Paper Mario Universe, with Paper Mario being literally being made of Paper- thus, they argue that Mario cannot have experienced the events of the modern Paper Mario Games.

The way Paper Jam presents this idea in-game is that Kamek notes about supposed rumors that the Mysterious Book held a parallel world within it's pages, which, as the story progresses, many characters meet their doubles- and Peach is the most interesting one. They seem to effectively share very similar if not the same sort of history, as they relate to being constantly kidnapped by Bowser, and the seeming cowardice of Luigi. Now, of course, this is somewhat consistent with how these things are portrayed in both Paper Mario & Regular Mario, so it's not truly definitive. So, why do I still insist Mario did experience the Paper Mario games?

Simply put; Superstar Saga DX. This game, which released directly after Paper Jam, denotes a block from a past Mario adventure which claims to be from "Paper Mario" (the Japanese Version doesn't say that, but rather, Mario's Story, the Japanese name of the Game). The description gives us an idea on what the material is like, saying it looks soft, but yet surprisingly firm, a reference to the arts/crafts style of of the block itself. What this tells is, is that Mario experience a past adventure (the OG Paper Mario), where he simply WAS a Paper Man in a Paper World. But on top of that, I've shown again and again how Paper Mario (Original, TTYD, SPM, CS & TOK) and Mario (MK: SC, SSDX, etc) experienced the same adventures.

But the idea that Mario and his world can simply alter his physiology is not inconsistent. The reason I presented Super Mario Odyssey & Paper Mario: Color Splash as additional evidence is to simply show that it is certainly possible for such physiological changes to occur within either Mario or portions of his world. On top of this, I presented evidence that Mario CAN meet not only past variations of himself, but said variations can also have different physiology(s). Heck, even Paper Mario himself is shown to turn himself into 8-Bit during SPM.

Paper Jam, considering every facet of evidence, is simply a Mario from a Parallel Universe where he happens to be Paper in his point in time- this considers all of the statements of it being a crossover, since this is Paper Mario- but also doesn't ignore the evidences that Mario did experience the Paper Mario series. By additionally presenting cycles, it simply makes my interpretation all the more plausible.

I hope this clears it all up!

 

[Chariot190]

Did I ever post the like 20 direct statements from Nintendo saying this is literally just the Mario from the Paper Mario games or...?

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Did I ever post the like 20 direct statements from Nintendo saying this is literally just the Mario from the Paper Mario games or...?

Did you? Well, I've seen the ones Armor posted in the website descriptions and whatnot, so it doesn't exactly change my argument. Oh, and here's some of the times Nintendo just mixes them.

 

[Lou_change]

What the hell happened here.
I'll throw some thoughts out. Paper Jam suggests they are separate. Even if they are not and they change from paper to not they mostly only use items in one form but not the other and show powers in one form, but not the other. That still doesn't work fusing the profile as we have numerous profiles for several characters at different times in their lives like the big three of Shoen practically fundamentally different forms should be far game. I would argue for Paper Mario 64 abilities to be on both given its implied the game is a novelization in canon.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I would argue for Paper Mario 64 abilities to be on both given its implied the game is a novelization in canon.

The thing is, I already showed how PM64 is still Paper-y in both modern Paper Mario games AND Superstar Saga.