Casting a Celestial Nail upon this verse (1 mod needed)

[Frostyyyy12]

Wow so like no one gets 5B lol

Nope. None of these people should be anywhere near 5-B, unless they get more feats in the future. 5-B and above should be reserved for the likes of Sinners, Shades, PO, Nibelung, Dottorebina, etc, you get the point.

I also think it’s wrong to assume that every Angel is equally strong. We already have several examples of races having a non-uniform distribution of strength, but i believe this should get clarified at least by the end of the Luna patches.

Got it. Are we gonma use Venti’s statement about being the weakest archon for scaling or does that only apply to present day?

Read the conversation for yourself, and see if you get my point:

Venti: Each archon presides over their own part of Teyvat. That is the role the archons play.
Venti: Only in performing this duty can we attain power, but I don't like the idea of "ruling" Mondstadt — and I don't feel Mondstadt would really like it either.

If you notice, Venti doesn’t actually say he got weaker. He said that since you have to rule your nation, and he hasn’t done that, he hasn’t gained any power. That means that Venti has not gotten stronger, but stayed at the same strength whereas everyone else improved. Dvalin, for instance, naturally gains elemental energy just by existing, because Dragons gain power by age according to Nahida. However, the Archons don’t, because in Biography of Gunhilder, we learn that you need to manually draw in the power that you gain from faith, venti cannot because he has been asleep.

Maybe but Varka could’ve also just been referring to Traveler’s Abyss countering abilites as that is mainly what Traveler did then.

I disagree. Cleansing the Abyss was not brought up in the quest. The context was about how Varka and Roland were equal, but since the Traveler has now arrived, they are sure to beat Roland. The emphasis was more about strength rather than their ability to cleanse the abyss.

Is Lisa correct? Venti seemed to buffed Traveler with enough power to drive Dvalin away in their little aerial dog fight.

Lisa was correct, yes. The entire plot of Act 1/2 was to destroy Dvalin’s power sources in the Temple of the Four Winds because he was getting stronger. However, we did not destroy the 4th, meaning Dvalin kept getting stronger albeit only from that source.

Plus, to be more precise, Dvalin was already keen on getting away. We were mainly just chasing him rather than chasing him away.

If Mavuika scales above Durin and by extension Venti

Mavuika scales above Durin, yes. But why would that involve Venti?

then Ei should scale too as she and Mavuika are implied to be relative based on her voicelines.

I disagree. This is a mistranslation and has many nuances that people overlook:

Ei never says that the scorched earth was as destructive as musoujin gorge, nor that it needed the same level of power to cause. In CN, she only ever compares its broadness/vastness to the musoujin gorge, saying that it's not less than it in size:

五百年前我抵达坎瑞亚之时，曾在战场上见过不亚于无想刃狭间的大片焦土，我听闻那就是火神的愤怒。时至今日，我竟然还有和这样一位人类见面的机会…可否为我引荐一番呢？作为「武人」，我想前往合适的空旷之地，与她交流一些心得。
Five hundred years ago, when I arrived in Khaenri'ah, I once witnessed on the battlefield a vast scorched earth that was no smaller than the musoujin gorge. I heard that it was the wrath of the Pyro Archon. To this day, I never imagined I would have the chance to meet such a human... Would you introduce us? As a "warrior," I wish to find a suitable open space to exchange some insights with her. As a "warrior," I wish to find a suitable open space to exchange some insights with her.

广阔=expansive/wide ranging

不亚于=No [Less/Smaller] than

Moreover, Mavuika also could not have possibly been in her prime when she did this feat. This is because she had barely any connection to the Night Kingdom in Khaenri’ah. Meaning that any scaling between Mavuika in her prime and Ei in her prime, that is to say, currently, is dubious and wonky at best.

Traveler also no matter what scales somewhat to Mavuika and all this due to the Gosoythoth fight.

Also disagree. The traveler was heavily amped by the LoTN during the fight and as such they have no other scaling to Mavuika. They are on par with her when amped by the LoTN.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

How could that be? Don't forget that Venti first obtained the power of Istaroth before later becoming a Archon。

And he didn’t even kill Decarabian. We learn that Decarabian was killed by Amos instead.

It's normal that the Gnosis is useless against the power of Istaroth.

A big maybe (Gnoses are the remnants of a Descender. They might have some special property), but regardless, Venti does not have Istaroth’s full power. This is a bad comparison.

Primordial Archons had already won the War of the Divine before obtaining Gnosis.

Not all of them. Only Ei/Morax, and maybe the Belyi Tsar. Xbalanque but he’s iffy since he wasn’t even in the AW nor was he a god.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

In that case, Varka > Dvalin > Durin?
Based on this https://b23.tv/5S1vs5e

Varka should be significantly stronger than Dvalin. The link you pasted is an alternative timeline where Varka doesn’t even have his vision.

Moreover, Dvalin is not stronger than Durin. This is primarily because Dvalin needed Venti’s amps to be on par with a Durin that was not even seriously fighting him.

 

[Puppet43]

She aided Morax in subduing Azhdaha when she was just one of the Three Deadly Selves. It’s explicitly stated that the Three Deadly are not the real deal especially in strength and presence.

Arent deadly selves just different personalities? Like Morax 3 deadly selves were equals

The idea that the abyssal dvalin can “parry” post Bina traveler is also extremely dubious because all the Traveler does is swing his sword once without even using his elements, and Bina’s amp was specifically related to the elements.

I mean Traveler try to cut Dvalin's belly but didn't and it has been accepted that Physicals scale to Elements and Viceversa

Varka straight up went ahead and oneshotted the Abyss amped Dvalin.

Well "Oneshotted" there an entire fight pre cutscene of the team weakening Dvalin's crystal and Varka only kill it because it targetted said weak point (Still should scale to AQ Dvalin as seen in the animated short)

SnK is implicitly stronger than Venti since he’s had a stronger base

This is never stated

Morax also lacks feats and his current version is kept up by the 2E traveler which implies that Scara has a higher base than AW morax as well.

Azhdaha (Kun jun) amped Traveler to keep up with the rest of the party

And where are you getting the idea that she stored all that energy in the gnosis?

Focalors: And then I "became one" with the Oratrice, taking Fontaine's Gnosis with me... Yes, it would seem so, wouldn't it?
Focalors: But really, some have already discovered that only a small fraction of the energy generated by the device was ever used to provide power to Fontaine...
Focalors: The vast majority has been — had to be — accumulated... to enact this death sentence.
Focalors: Indeed. This power, accrued over five centuries, could have sustained Fontainians for millennia had it only been used for that purpose. Almost all of it has now been stored within the Oratrice...

I mean, it doesn’t matter, support or not, he’d still be supporting with a tremendous amount of power (i.e, durin’s).

Yeah but i try to say that hoyo tries to put him as a support in battles (doing things in the background) instead of actually showing us how he can fight

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

If you notice, Venti doesn’t actually say he got weaker. He said that since you have to rule your nation, and he hasn’t done that, he hasn’t gained any power. That means that Venti has not gotten stronger, but stayed at the same strength whereas everyone else improved. Dvalin, for instance, naturally gains elemental energy just by existing, because Dragons gain power by age according to Nahida. However, the Archons don’t, because in Biography of Gunhilder, we learn that you need to manually draw in the power that you gain from faith, venti cannot because he has been asleep.


I disagree. Cleansing the Abyss was not brought up in the quest. The context was about how Varka and Roland were equal, but since the Traveler has now arrived, they are sure to beat Roland. The emphasis was more about strength rather than their ability to cleanse the abyss.

Lisa was correct, yes. The entire plot of Act 1/2 was to destroy Dvalin’s power sources in the Temple of the Four Winds because he was getting stronger. However, we did not destroy the 4th, meaning Dvalin kept getting stronger albeit only from that source.

Plus, to be more precise, Dvalin was already keen on getting away. We were mainly just chasing him rather than chasing him away.

Mavuika scales above Durin, yes. But why would that involve Venti?




Also disagree. The traveler was heavily amped by the LoTN during the fight and as such they have no other scaling to Mavuika. They are on par with her when amped by the LoTN.

The Traveler’s ability to cleanse the Abyss was a key aspect of them winning the fight though.

I don’t see how Dvalin was planning to get away. He came in spawned tornadoes and was flying around. Venti helps Traveler give chase and shoot him and he leaves. Looks like they chased him off.

Because Durin is stronger than or equal to Venti.

The Traveler cancelled out attacks from Gosoythoth even before they got pyro from the LotN so they’d actually still scale. Where was it even said that Traveler was buffed against Gosoythoth?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Arent deadly selves just different personalities? Like Morax 3 deadly selves were equals

Nope, they differ in strength. For example, the Adepti treat them as inferior:

Madame Ping: So, even a mere Deadly Self of the White Horse Adeptus was able to possess Mountain Shaper and affect his mind? No wonder Rex Lapis told us to gather here and await his orders…

Zibai’s three deadly selves also merely had but a fragment of her soul. Ziqao’s current power also faded, and she barely had any left. Zibai’s deadly selves are formed from mere impurities within her soul. They are no special things. The game has never told us that the three deadly selves are equal nor have they said that they’re as strong as the original. They’re also called a remnant of her adeptal form:

Zizhi: As I said before, I am but a remnant of Zibai's adeptal form — a manifestation of her wrath that was not meant to linger in this world...

I mean Traveler try to cut Dvalin's belly but didn't and it has been accepted that Physicals scale to Elements and Viceversa

They didn’t try to cut his belly. They just put their sword upwards, but that’s not really saying anything. It’s one thing to aim at Dvalin and brutally try to discombobulate him, and another to stop him from coming too close.

Physicals should scale to elemental stats if you’re amping yourself with energy, traveler wasn’t. If he was, we’d see it. For example, HoYo was very consistent with when Traveler was using the elements and when he wasn’t throughout all the AQs.

Well "Oneshotted" there an entire fight pre cutscene of the team weakening Dvalin's crystal and Varka only kill it because it targetted said weak point (Still should scale to AQ Dvalin as seen in the animated short)

I mean, i say oneshotted because Varka only really landed one actual hit in the fight. Other than that, neither he nor the traveler does much. Like it’s hard to say if the Abyss Dvalin was weakened at all. Sure, they were hitting him and all, but then like, he was completely unfazed by all of their attacks and just moved on. Venti tried to target the blood clot but then it didn’t even work. Dvalin just seemed to casually dodge it.

This is never stated

Venti -> Windspirit who was not strong enough to even participate in the Archon War.
Scara -> 6th Harbinger.

Venti without the Gnosis -> Very weak. He needed his gnosis for all his major feats, and the Traveler keeps up with Dvalin who’s even stronger than Venti with a gnosis.

Azhdaha (Kun jun) amped Traveler to keep up with the rest of the party

This is wrong. Kun Jun was purely healing us. But even if you think it means anything, and Kun Jun was doing anything more than that(which you’d need to prove), Zhongli says that he needed Kun Jun’s help as well, which in and of itself implies relativity.

Yeah but i try to say that hoyo tries to put him as a support in battles (doing things in the background) instead of actually showing us how he can fight

That’s right, he’s playing a support role. But still though, whenever he plays a support role, he’d still be aiding them with his raw strength(except rerir and dottore fight).

 

[Frostyyyy12]

The Traveler’s ability to cleanse the Abyss was a key aspect of them winning the fight though.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but it was not.

What i mean is: Roland is an Abyssal entity created by the Wild Hunt manipulating the Leylines. From what we know, if you try to purify Abyssal entities, you will kill them, because the Abyss has fused with you. However, we could not kill Roland, that was the entire point of the fight. When Varka made the statement, he had no plan or whatever to separate and isolate Abyssal energy. So he was purely speaking from a combative perspective (which he himself says).

I don’t see how Dvalin was planning to get away. He came in spawned tornadoes and was flying around. Venti helps Traveler give chase and shoot him and he leaves. Looks like they chased him off.

That’s not right. Dvalin attacked the city, spawned tornadoes, and then flew upwards. He then started flying away even before Venti amped us with the Thousand Winds to combat Dvalin. Dvalin was already on his course to leave. Traveler simply used the Thousand Winds to chase Dvalin, not chase him away.

Because Durin is stronger than or equal to Venti.

That’s dubious at best. Even you said that Durin had no idea what he was doing in the battle.

The Traveler cancelled out attacks from Gosoythoth even before they got pyro from the LotN so they’d actually still scale. Where was it even said that Traveler was buffed against Gosoythoth?

They canceled out random attacks that were thrown at them as collateral. They weren’t the main target. Gosoythoth was fully focused on Mavuika, which we can see implicitly from the intensity and frequency of the attacks. Traveler cancelled out like, a few attacks at best, and then they almost died when Xiuhcoatl transformed even when they got LoTN buffs(that was only partial buffs at this point).

The idea that we were buffed comes from the fact that we get boss specific constellations and abilities. Genshin, ever since 1.x, have been consistent with adding lore aspects into gameplay. Every time we’d gotten amped in lore, we’ve gotten stronger in game. Boss specific abilities goes another step and implies that we were actually getting amped. Moreover, once the battle starts, you’re shown a text saying that the Wayobs are amplifying your powers.

Also, what do you think about my first paragraph?

 

[Puppet43]

Nope, they differ in strength. For example, the Adepti treat them as inferior:

No adeptus knew about her in the first place, since they were later born and this would just upscale Zibai even more

They didn’t try to cut his belly. They just put their sword upwards, but that’s not really saying anything. It’s one thing to aim at Dvalin and brutally try to discombobulate him, and another to stop him from coming too close.

Traveler is the one that starts the offensive by raising its sword to try to reach Dvalin's body, Dvalin just didn't get affect. Great example of No Selling an attack (Dvalin and Durin upscale)

HoYo was very consistent with when Traveler was using the elements and when he wasn’t throughout all the AQs.

In the same key/arc?

Venti tried to target the blood clot but then it didn’t even work. Dvalin just seemed to casually dodge it.

Yeah, because he won't just let anyone get a free hit of its weak point

Very weak. He needed his gnosis for all his major feats

Venti yeeting a Mountain was made before he got the gnosis. Like its the first thing he does once recieving his friend's body

the Traveler keeps up with Dvalin who’s even stronger than Venti with a gnosis.

Traveler barely scratches a Dvalin that was getting mid diffed by a Dvalin with Barbatos power and before that got almost oneshotted by an average Venti arrow*
U are kinda a larper when it comes to Venti

Kun Jun was purely healing us.

Zhongli says that he needed Kun Jun’s help as well, which in and of itself implies relativity.

Big % of Azhdaza >= Zhongli without a gnosis amped by small porcentage of Azhada power, this is just dragon upscale

he’d still be aiding them with his raw strength.

He hasn't do this since Rerir fight

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but it was not.

What i mean is: Roland is an Abyssal entity created by the Wild Hunt manipulating the Leylines. From what we know, if you try to purify Abyssal entities, you will kill them, because the Abyss has fused with you. However, we could not kill Roland, that was the entire point of the fight. When Varka made the statement, he had no plan or whatever to separate and isolate Abyssal energy. So he was purely speaking from a combative perspective (which he himself says).


That’s not right. Dvalin attacked the city, spawned tornadoes, and then flew upwards. He then started flying away even before Venti amped us with the Thousand Winds to combat Dvalin. Dvalin was already on his course to leave. Traveler simply used the Thousand Winds to chase Dvalin, not chase him away.

That’s dubious at best. Even you said that Durin had no idea what he was doing in the battle.


They canceled out random attacks that were thrown at them as collateral. They weren’t the main target. Gosoythoth was fully focused on Mavuika, which we can see implicitly from the intensity and frequency of the attacks. Traveler cancelled out like, a few attacks at best, and then they almost died when Xiuhcoatl transformed even when they got LoTN buffs(that was only partial buffs at this point).

The idea that we were buffed comes from the fact that we get boss specific constellations and abilities. Genshin, ever since 1.x, have been consistent with adding lore aspects into gameplay. Every time we’d gotten amped in lore, we’ve gotten stronger in game. Boss specific abilities goes another step and implies that we were actually getting amped. Moreover, once the battle starts, you’re shown a text saying that the Wayobs are amplifying your powers.

Also, what do you think about my first paragraph?

Do you have the specific dialogue?

Traveler literally shot Dvalin with wind bullets before he left. If Dvalin was already leaving then Venti had no reason to help Traveler attack him.

How is that dubious? Durin required Venti and Dvalin to tag team to kill him while he was playing around. He’d have to be greater or equal to Venti for this to he the case.

You can’t say they were random attacks. Gosoythoth expressly didn’t want Traveler joining the battle. There’s a whole section of gameplay where you have to dodge attacks from it as you approach the battlefield. Like go watch the gameplay or even the cutscene, those aren’t just collateral. Gosoythoth was aiming for Traveler which is why they have to dodge so much just to reach the arena. Trying to pretend those attacks are weaker makes no sense as those are the exact same attacks used on Mavuika. A few attacks still counts as scaling.

No you get a message that says you got a blessing from the Tribes. Even then though it doesn’t change that Traveler before getting these buffs stopped attacks from Gosoythoth.

Uh which paragraph?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Like seriously go to 3:13:37 and Gosoythoth starts attacking Traveler or watch from 3:15:07 and Gosoythoth is specifically spawning attacks in Traveler’s path like seriously how are these laser just collateral? 3:15:32 is even more blatant. Gosoythoth just straight up sweeps with a laser and then starts spamming more attacks

 

[Puppet43]

Like seriously go to 3:13:37 and Gosoythoth starts attacking Traveler or watch from 3:15:07 and Gosoythoth is specifically spawning attacks in Traveler’s path like seriously how are these laser just collateral? 3:15:32 is even more blatant. Gosoythoth just straight up sweeps with a laser and then starts spamming more attacks

Fun fact, the entire quest tells u a dead value that Traveler tanked multiple times gosoythoth attacks

 

[Frostyyyy12]

No adeptus knew about her in the first place, since they were later born and this would just upscale Zibai even more

The Adepti and the Three Deadly Self fought together in the Archon war. Moreover, the Adepti have plenty of knowledge about the three deadly selves art… because it’s an art created by Morax? It’s an adeptal art.

And yes, it just upscales Zibai. Not Ziqiao, who fought alongside Morax.

Traveler is the one that starts the offensive by raising its sword to try to reach Dvalin's body, Dvalin just didn't get affect. Great example of No Selling an attack (Dvalin and Durin upscale)

Yes, because Dvalin is coming at him going closer and closer. He isn’t charging at Dvalin nor is he going straight at him. He sees Dvalin coming and simply defends himself by putting his sword upwards.

The traveler isn’t even using his elements. When he does, he usually amped his AP with either pyro or electro in the NK quests. You’d have to prove that he’s going even remotely at full strength in this fight.

In the same key/arc?

Yes, in the Nod-krai arc. Traveler has been very consistently using their elements, so i’d question why he isn’t using any at all here?

Yeah, because he won't just let anyone get a free hit of its weak point

Yes, so how exactly do you say that Dvalin was weakened to any meaningful extent if they never atracked any meaningful part of him? Like sure, if they hit the weak spot, then i can agree that he’s been weakened, but Dvalin just brushes off every single attack.

Venti yeeting a Mountain was made before he got the gnosis. Like its the first thing he does once recieving his friend's body

The text you quoted explicitly says that it was done after the Anemo Archon Barbatos ascended as a God, which means that was the moment he became an Archon, and therefore was bestowed with the gnosis. Venti gained archon powers, took his friend’s body, and reshaped Mondstadt. Are you reading your own sources?

Also, Wings of the Forest says that Venti was a weak wind spirit in the thousand winds, he had a fodder starting point. This is not debatable.

Traveler barely scratches

This is all assuming that the Traveler’s intent was to try and absolutely annihilate Dvalin’s insides.

a Dvalin that was getting mid diffed by a Dvalin with Barbatos power

I’m seeing no mid diff here. How are you making the diffs up here?

and before that got almost oneshotted by an average Venti arrow*

Oneshotted? Dvalin just shrugs it off and all he does is get pushed back for a second lmao. This is just stacking headcanon on top of headcanon. Venti couldn’t even beat a normal Dvalin without getting heavily wounded when he had the gnosis, much less oneshot a Dvalin who’s much stronger due to the Abyss.

Not gonna lie, i don’t know why you’re pasting scans as if you think they disprove something. All this says is that Kun Jun was imbuing them with his power… which doesn’t mean much because to heal someone, you imbue them with your power. That’s what happens if you die in gameplay, Kun Jun’s energy surrounds you.

If this was a stat amp, then why don’t we get buffed in-game? HoYo in all their archon quests when the character gets a lore buff, they also get a gameplay buff.

Big % of Azhdaza >= Zhongli without a gnosis amped by small porcentage of Azhada power, this is just dragon upscale

Not really the point. Kun Jun was explicitly stated to have almost no power left. So if Kun Jun was amping them, then Zhongli was in a situation where Kun Jun had to stop amping only the Traveler and amp Zhongli as well. This already creates relativity between the two. Kun Jun with almost no power has to amp Zhongli as well, and Traveler has to keep up with Azhdaha. Like, if Traveler had no capacity of keeping up on his own, then he should simply stay out of the fight and let Kun Jun amp Morax to the maximum.

He hasn't do this since Rerir fight

Yeah, but that is not my point. The point is that he’d be a factor to consider in when Varka makes such a statement because he’d be aiding with his raw strength.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Do you have the specific dialogue?

1. Arle says right before opening the gate to the Iridescent Moon space that since the Abyss had fused with her hands, purifying it would just destroy them.
2. Alice: The power of the Abyss has fused with his flesh and bones. Purifying him now, in this state, is no different than sentencing him to death.

Varka: True... We're still not certain of his true identity, but whether he's a god corrupted by the Abyss, or a legendary knight...
Varka: The difficult part is, we can't kill him right now.

Traveler instead, later on in the quest, isolates and separates the abyssal energy instead of purifying it. However, this wasn’t related to beating Roland using the purification. The context was simply about how Roland was not strong enough, so they should be capable of taking him out since the Traveler’s here. It was a matter of strength, not hax.

Traveler literally shot Dvalin with wind bullets before he left. If Dvalin was already leaving then Venti had no reason to help Traveler attack him.

I’m confused on what you’re talking about. The traveler does NOT shoot using the thousand winds against Dvalin till dvalin actually starts flying away and they’re very much high up in the air. In fact, Venti has to explicitly tell you to shoot Dvalin and by that time he’s already leaving the scene.

And even before we go into the wind glider sequence, Dvalin just flies past the Traveler into the other direction. We get caught up in this and thrown high up into the air with Dvalin where Dvalin just ignores us.

How is that dubious? Durin required Venti and Dvalin to tag team to kill him while he was playing around. He’d have to be greater or equal to Venti for this to he the case.

Correct, Durin would be stronger than Venti. But how does that warrant you to say that Venti would be included here? Because there’s no saying how a real fight between them would go.

You can’t say they were random attacks. Gosoythoth expressly didn’t want Traveler joining the battle. There’s a whole section of gameplay where you have to dodge attacks from it as you approach the battlefield. Like go watch the gameplay or even the cutscene, those aren’t just collateral. Gosoythoth was aiming for Traveler which is why they have to dodge so much just to reach the arena. Trying to pretend those attacks are weaker makes no sense as those are the exact same attacks used on Mavuika. A few attacks still counts as scaling.

You make a bunch of assumptions here, such as:
1. All of Gosoythoth’s attacks must be as equally strong. They don’t.
2. The attacks used on the Traveler must be as equally strong as the ones used against Mavuika. They don’t.

Gosoythoth doesn’t want either of to battle it. It wasn’t just solely against the Traveler joining the battle. Gosoythoth has to split its strength and has to focus on Mavuika and the Traveler separately, while it’s already in a crippled state due to getting blasted with Ronova’s power. I don’t think you realise how significant two different targets constantly moving around with one target being a much more implicit threat to you would have you moving to split your strength so that you don’t get blasted to hell by one. Mavuika and Gosoythoth are relative, that was made abundantly clear. So it has to deal with a target that’s constantly bullrushing into it who’s strong enough to be a significant threat and another moving target coming up against it.

I don’t think you realise the gap either. As i’ve said before, the 6E traveler fights a fragment of Bakunawa, nowhere near its actual strength, and they aren’t even able to do any meaningful damage to it. And so they explicitly have to rely on a sword created by Sanhaj using the power of the Wayob.

Mavuika is on a whole other level comparatively. She scales to levels where she’s able to do stuff like cut off Bakunawa’s limbs and head repeatedly, and this is a full power Bakunawa during the Cataclysm. She just gets even more stronger. Are we saying that the 6E traveler got weaker than the 5E traveler, or actually going with the more consistent interpretation?

Hell, it’s crazy because throughout the whole sequence in getting there, we fight enemies who are under Gosoythoth, and we couldn’t even scratch them. Mavuika on the other hand outright goes and destroys Gosoythoth’s core. Is this not proof of the absolutely ridiculous gap between them?

No you get a message that says you got a blessing from the Tribes.

The tribes have no influence in the Night-Kingdom. It’s the Wayobs that serve as the medium. It’s the power of the Tribes amplifying you using the power of the Wayob.

Uh which paragraph?

The one regarding Venti.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Fun fact, the entire quest tells u a dead value that Traveler tanked multiple times gosoythoth attacks

Because they’re amped by the LoTN here?

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Nope. None of these people should be anywhere near 5-B, unless they get more feats in the future. 5-B and above should be reserved for the likes of Sinners, Shades, PO, Nibelung, Dottorebina, etc, you get the point.

Reasonable

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

1. Arle says right before opening the gate to the Iridescent Moon space that since the Abyss had fused with her hands, purifying it would just destroy them.
2. Alice: The power of the Abyss has fused with his flesh and bones. Purifying him now, in this state, is no different than sentencing him to death.

Varka: True... We're still not certain of his true identity, but whether he's a god corrupted by the Abyss, or a legendary knight...
Varka: The difficult part is, we can't kill him right now.

Traveler instead, later on in the quest, isolates and separates the abyssal energy instead of purifying it. However, this wasn’t related to beating Roland using the purification. The context was simply about how Roland was not strong enough, so they should be capable of taking him out since the Traveler’s here. It was a matter of strength, not hax.

I’m confused on what you’re talking about. The traveler does NOT shoot using the thousand winds against Dvalin till dvalin actually starts flying away and they’re very much high up in the air. In fact, Venti has to explicitly tell you to shoot Dvalin and by that time he’s already leaving the scene.

And even before we go into the wind glider sequence, Dvalin just flies past the Traveler into the other direction. We get caught up in this and thrown high up into the air with Dvalin where Dvalin just ignores us.

Correct, Durin would be stronger than Venti. But how does that warrant you to say that Venti would be included here? Because there’s no saying how a real fight between them would go.

You make a bunch of assumptions here, such as:
1. All of Gosoythoth’s attacks must be as equally strong. They don’t.
2. The attacks used on the Traveler must be as equally strong as the ones used against Mavuika. They don’t.

Gosoythoth doesn’t want either of to battle it. It wasn’t just solely against the Traveler joining the battle. Gosoythoth has to split its strength and has to focus on Mavuika and the Traveler separately, while it’s already in a crippled state due to getting blasted with Ronova’s power. I don’t think you realise how significant two different targets constantly moving around with one target being a much more implicit threat to you would have you moving to split your strength so that you don’t get blasted to hell by one. Mavuika and Gosoythoth are relative, that was made abundantly clear. So it has to deal with a target that’s constantly bullrushing into it who’s strong enough to be a significant threat and another moving target coming up against it.

I don’t think you realise the gap either. As i’ve said before, the 6E traveler fights a fragment of Bakunawa, nowhere near its actual strength, and they aren’t even able to do any meaningful damage to it. And so they explicitly have to rely on a sword created by Sanhaj using the power of the Wayob.

Mavuika is on a whole other level comparatively. She scales to levels where she’s able to do stuff like cut off Bakunawa’s limbs and head repeatedly, and this is a full power Bakunawa during the Cataclysm. She just gets even more stronger. Are we saying that the 6E traveler got weaker than the 5E traveler, or actually going with the more consistent interpretation?

Hell, it’s crazy because throughout the whole sequence in getting there, we fight enemies who are under Gosoythoth, and we couldn’t even scratch them. Mavuika on the other hand outright goes and destroys Gosoythoth’s core. Is this not proof of the absolutely ridiculous gap between them?


The tribes have no influence in the Night-Kingdom. It’s the Wayobs that serve as the medium. It’s the power of the Tribes amplifying you using the power of the Wayob.

The one regarding Venti.

I meant a specific statement about Varka wanting the Traveler for strength not hax.

What is the point of shooting Dvalin if he was already retreating? In the cutscene he isn’t running he attempts to eat the Traveler which they dodge and then he ignores them. After the shoot him a bunch he then roars and flies straight up actually leaving. Everything in game from dialogue to the quest summary talk about the Traveler defending Mondstadt.

What are you saying? Durin is stronger than Venti. If someone scales over Durin then they scale over Venti that’s it.


You’re the one making assumptions on the strength of Gosoythoth’s attacks. First you tried to say they were collateral and now you’re saying they were weaker without evidence.


That is blatantly untrue. Please show me a scene of the Traveler being unable to face Gosoythoth’s minions. The NPC’s offer help and the Natlanese repeatedly state “no one fights alone”. This isn’t indication that Traveler couldn’t handle these minions. Are we gonna say Ei couldn’t beat Chiyo’s fragments because the Traveler offered her help? Are we gonna say Traveler couldn’t beat some gardemeks because Chiori asked to let her handle them? Obviously not.

Also how are the pyro archons scaling to the ritual that defeated the Bakunawa? If they could why didn’t they handle it instead of letting Tenoch sacrifice himself?

So it is still the power of the tribes?

Venti still lost his Gnosis so would be an unquantiable amount weaker than in his prime but that’s it really

 

[Puppet43]

He isn’t charging at Dvalin nor is he going straight at him. He sees Dvalin coming and simply defends himself by putting his sword upwards.

And still wouldn't change the fact he not sell Traveler's

The traveler isn’t even using his elements

Physicals scale to Elemetals, otherwise we would had 9B Childe in physical with 7C elemental

but Dvalin just brushes off every single attack.

"Brushes off" and then when we see the cutscene it litterally went into coma mid fight for a god damn arrow

This is all assuming that the Traveler’s intent was to try and absolutely annihilate Dvalin’s insides.

The quest litterally says "WE NEED TO KILL DVALIN" WHY WOULD HE NOT TRY TO DO SUCH?

Dvalin just shrugs it off and all he does is get pushed back for a second lmao

shurging off is going for a quick nap of how hard Venti hit the dragon

Venti couldn’t even beat a normal Dvalin without getting heavily wounded

Venti AQ and Dvalin AQ are equals, and where u get it got "heavily wounded"?

Not gonna lie, i don’t know why you’re pasting scans as if you think they disprove something. All this says is that Kun Jun was imbuing them with his power… which doesn’t mean much because to heal someone, you imbue them with your power.

Great I.I.F.

This already creates relativity between the two. Kun Jun with almost no power has to amp Zhongli as well, and Traveler has to keep up with Azhdaha. Like, if Traveler had no capacity of keeping up on his own, then he should simply stay out of the fight and let Kun Jun amp Morax to the maximum.

This would just proof Adzhada eroded is stronger than Zhongli, even after getting to almost Gnosis lvls of powers

As i’ve said before, the 6E traveler fights a fragment of Bakunawa, nowhere near its actual strength, and they aren’t even able to do any meaningful damage to it. And so they explicitly have to rely on a sword created by Sanhaj using the power of the Wayob.

Mavuika is on a whole other level comparatively. She scales to levels where she’s able to do stuff like cut off Bakunawa’s limbs and head repeatedly, and this is a full power Bakunawa during the Cataclysm.

Bro forgot about something called "Skirk's training"

Mavuika on the other hand outright goes and destroys Gosoythoth’s core

Mavuika didnt destroy the core (In the final battle) in fact Gosoy no sells a Mavuika that try to put more output to her punch

Because they’re amped by the LoTN here?

Burden of Proof

Also how are the pyro archons scaling to the ritual that defeated the Bakunawa? If they could why didn’t they handle it instead of letting Tenoch sacrifice himself?

It isnt even reliable because it needed prep time and just seal it lmao

So it is still the power of the tribes?

I mean mavuika says it was "Moral Support" so no cannonical buff

 

[Frostyyyy12]

I meant a specific statement about Varka wanting the Traveler for strength not hax.

We’re inferencing that from context. Everything varka says in regard to that line is in the context of how Roland isn’t too powerful, and how they’re both equal, and Traveler’s involvement changes that.

If traveler was needed solely for hax, then why doesn’t the idea of him using his hax for combat ever brought up?

What is the point of shooting Dvalin if he was already retreating?

In the cutscene he isn’t running he attempts to eat the Traveler which they dodge and then he ignores them. After the shoot him a bunch he then roars and flies straight up actually leaving. Everything in game from dialogue to the quest summary talk about the Traveler defending Mondstadt.

To ensure that Dvalin doesn’t come back. But that doesn’t say much. In act 3, we do the same thing, but instead Dvalin appears just as strong and fights against us, and almost even wins against us.

I also don’t see what point you’re making. It’s pretty blatant to see Dvalin leave before the traveler actually starts attacking him. Later, he does roar, and the traveler couldn’t attack with the thousand winds anymore in the situation where he flies far away. At that point, they were flying for a significant amount of time. Do you think they were just going around in circles despite the game showing us and dvalin staying in a straight chase?

What are you saying? Durin is stronger than Venti. If someone scales over Durin then they scale over Venti that’s it.

I think i misunderstood your point, probably due to weird wording:

“If Mavuika scales above Durin and by extension Venti”
I read it as you saying Venti scales to this as well probably due to the lack of a comma.

You’re the one making assumptions on the strength of Gosoythoth’s attacks. First you tried to say they were collateral and now you’re saying they were weaker without evidence.

It’s not assuming anything. It’s the most basic syllogism ever. Further, you do realise that the reason they’re weaker is because they’re collateral, right? They’re collateral not in the sense that they’re attacks after they go after mavuika, they’re collateral in the sense that the traveler is getting caught up while the main focus is Mavuika.

If you’re fighting two opponents in which one of them is far stronger, then would you give both of them the same amount of focus/strength or would you give more focus to the stronger one? The former is gonna end with you getting your ass whooped, while the latter is strategic.

That is blatantly untrue. Please show me a scene of the Traveler being unable to face Gosoythoth’s minions. The NPC’s offer help and the Natlanese repeatedly state “no one fights alone”. This isn’t indication that Traveler couldn’t handle these minions.

2:16:59

The traveler couldn’t even harm the Pylon. In fact, to be specific:

好强，深渊的力量在保护它，我们很难造成伤害！
“So strong. The power of the Abyss is protecting it — it’s very hard for us to deal any damage!”

Mind you, this is WITH the traveler having the help of many people.

Are we gonna say Ei couldn’t beat Chiyo’s fragments because the Traveler offered her help? Are we gonna say Traveler couldn’t beat some gardemeks because Chiori asked to let her handle them? Obviously not.

I don’t think this is a good analogy lmao. Ei herself says that she can’t defeat Chiyo if she doesn’t use the MnH. The reason why we needed to help Ei is because she couldn’t defeat Chiyo without using the Musou no Hitotachi. We forbade her from using it.

Also how are the pyro archons scaling to the ritual that defeated the Bakunawa? If they could why didn’t they handle it instead of letting Tenoch sacrifice himself?

It’s not them scaling to the ritual. There’s two things you’re overlooking:
1. There’s only one pyro archon, and Mavuika was not involved. The other pyro archons are spirits.
2. What they actually scale to is this:
Citlali: Even when it was beheaded or had its body chopped into pieces, the remains would somehow continue to grow, seeking each other out and eventually... forming a new, revitalized Bakunawa.

The pyro archon (Mavuika) would scale to this because she’s the strongest in Natlan. Someone, if not Mavuika, was strong enough to deal enough damage to behead and chop it into pieces to test its regeneration.

So it is still the power of the tribes?

The power of the tribes is the wayob??

Venti still lost his Gnosis so would be an unquantiable amount weaker than in his prime but that’s it really

I’m saying that the weakest archon statement applies to his prime as well.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

And still wouldn't change the fact he not sell Traveler's

Why does that matter in any scaling perspective if the Traveler is not trying to harm it?

Physicals scale to Elemetals, otherwise we would had 9B Childe in physical with 7C elemental

Physicals scale to elements when characters are amping themselves with elemental energy. Prove that the Traveler is?

"Brushes off" and then when we see the cutscene it litterally went into coma mid fight for a god damn arrow

Coma? Dude gets pushed back by Diluc’s attack and Venti’s attack combined. That’s all he does. He then shrugs it off immediately and starts fighting back.

The quest litterally says "WE NEED TO KILL DVALIN" WHY WOULD HE NOT TRY TO DO SUCH?

Because this whole quest has this narrative of letting Varka be the hero, hell, that’s what our Dvalin says as well, and that’s what the Youtube description for the cutscene implies as well:

“No turn of fate can change the character a person already carries. But sometimes, it can make the ending a little less tragic.
Though unrealized, this legend remains a hero's story all the same. Just not one meant for children.”

And even if the Traveler was totally trying to kill Dvalin and not let Varka do it, why does he have to take the spotlight and use all his power?

Venti AQ and Dvalin AQ are equals, and where u get it got "heavily wounded"?

Great, now prove that this is in reference to strength, because the entire plot was that we had a massive environmental disadvantage and now we were finally on equal grounds.
And this is also the CN:

這樣就能和特瓦林對等戰鬥了，天底下最好的詩人前來助拳

“With this, we can fight Dvalin on equal footing. The greatest poet under heaven has come to lend a hand.”

Just refers to neutral conditions. Nothing more.

And this is Venti being wounded:

Varka: Yeah, it was a kind of... prophecy. It felt so real, I doubt I could ever forget it.
Varka: In the end... You were able to seal Dvalin away, but you were wounded in the process.

Great I.I.F.

Nice try hiding behind invincible ignorance. But it’s your burden, and you’ve failed to fulfil it and you haven’t address the fact that he’s imbuing us with his power to heal us. Prove it’s amping our stats.

This would just proof Adzhada eroded is stronger than Zhongli, even after getting to almost Gnosis lvls of powers

?That’s not the point. It proves that the Traveler is relative to Zhongli. If anything, this is the IIF.

Bro forgot about something called "Skirk's training"

Skirk’s training happened before Natlan. It happened in Fontaine. The travel log shows as much.

Mavuika didnt destroy the core (In the final battle) in fact Gosoy no sells a Mavuika that try to put more output to her punch

Do you know what a core is?
Mavuika: I'm sure you remember the "Abyss Tumors" from the previous battle. Eradicating them was critical to stopping the endless onslaught of monsters.
Mavuika: Our final enemy has a core that possesses similar qualities. It's hidden somewhere in the Night Kingdom.

Later:
Chuychu: Huh? What was that? I felt shaking all of a sudden...
Traveler: Could it be... That Mavuika's wrapped up everything on her end?
Chuychu: Ooh, I was wondering where she went.
Chuychu: Well, that just means we've got even less time to waste! I never liked causing trouble, and I definitely don't want to be the one who holds up the Pyro Archon's plan.

Burden of Proof

Already showed evidence. The traveler is explicitly stated to be amped at the beginning of the fight and has his own set of boss specific constellations, which implies he was amped as Genshin consistently gives us temporary amps if we get amped in lore. I’ve yet to see any retorts. HoYo specifically made it so that whenever we fought Gosoythoth, we get extra set of constellation, i.e, buffs, and the bossfight is just our memories of how we we fought canonically.

It isnt even reliable because it needed prep time and just seal it lmao

And that’s not the point. If nobody scales to Bakunawa, then how was they able to do significant damage to it and realise that it had insane regeneration? Citlali explicitly says that they did. Traveler couldn’t even damage it stat wise. Mavuika scales above people who can outright behead it.

I mean mavuika says it was "Moral Support" so no cannonical buff

Mavuika says that it was moral support in regards to when we came back to the battlefield to fight Gosoythoth. Nothing more. It was in reference to Kachina’s cutscene and the sacred flame igniting again. The sacred flame also amps us, as i pasted the voiceline before already.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

We’re inferencing that from context. Everything varka says in regard to that line is in the context of how Roland isn’t too powerful, and how they’re both equal, and Traveler’s involvement changes that.

If traveler was needed solely for hax, then why doesn’t the idea of him using his hax for combat ever brought up?

To ensure that Dvalin doesn’t come back. But that doesn’t say much. In act 3, we do the same thing, but instead Dvalin appears just as strong and fights against us, and almost even wins against us.

I also don’t see what point you’re making. It’s pretty blatant to see Dvalin leave before the traveler actually starts attacking him. Later, he does roar, and the traveler couldn’t attack with the thousand winds anymore in the situation where he flies far away. At that point, they were flying for a significant amount of time. Do you think they were just going around in circles despite the game showing us and dvalin staying in a straight chase?

I think i misunderstood your point, probably due to weird wording:

“If Mavuika scales above Durin and by extension Venti”
I read it as you saying Venti scales to this as well probably due to the lack of a comma.

It’s not assuming anything. It’s the most basic syllogism ever. Further, you do realise that the reason they’re weaker is because they’re collateral, right? They’re collateral not in the sense that they’re attacks after they go after mavuika, they’re collateral in the sense that the traveler is getting caught up while the main focus is Mavuika.

If you’re fighting two opponents in which one of them is far stronger, then would you give both of them the same amount of focus/strength or would you give more focus to the stronger one? The former is gonna end with you getting your ass whooped, while the latter is strategic.


2:16:59

The traveler couldn’t even harm the Pylon. In fact, to be specific:

好强，深渊的力量在保护它，我们很难造成伤害！
“So strong. The power of the Abyss is protecting it — it’s very hard for us to deal any damage!”

Mind you, this is WITH the traveler having the help of many people.

I don’t think this is a good analogy lmao. Ei herself says that she can’t defeat Chiyo if she doesn’t use the MnH. The reason why we needed to help Ei is because she couldn’t defeat Chiyo without using the Musou no Hitotachi. We forbade her from using it.

It’s not them scaling to the ritual. There’s two things you’re overlooking:
1. There’s only one pyro archon, and Mavuika was not involved. The other pyro archons are spirits.
2. What they actually scale to is this:
Citlali: Even when it was beheaded or had its body chopped into pieces, the remains would somehow continue to grow, seeking each other out and eventually... forming a new, revitalized Bakunawa.

The pyro archon (Mavuika) would scale to this because she’s the strongest in Natlan. Someone, if not Mavuika, was strong enough to deal enough damage to behead and chop it into pieces to test its regeneration.


The power of the tribes is the wayob??


I’m saying that the weakest archon statement applies to his prime as well.

Because the goal was not to kill Roland. The hax comes into play to aid in the plan to carry the idea into Boreas.

Where did you get that idea? What we’re told in the game’s quest summaries and dialogue is Dvalin is chased off/defeated.

Oh sorry for the confusion.

That is not what collateral means and it doesn’t change the fact that Gosoythoth was sending specific attacks after Traveler not just Mavuika.

Vichama (is that his name?) commenting on how tough it is doesn’t translate to the Traveler can’t beat it. We have literally zero context for what the Traveler was even doing in that fight especially since the dialogue before this has the guy tell Traveler to “leave combat to him”

Fair enough.

Yeah and?

Is there a reason why? Prime Venti would be him shortly after ascension when everyone would have eyes on him. Why would all archons scale to that.

 

[Puppet43]

Why does that matter in any scaling perspective if the Traveler is not trying to harm it?

If i raise a knife with 2 hand for protection and even then u get not a single brush by the sharpess, u litterally not selling my knife AP.
This is basic powerscaling

Physicals scale to elements when characters are amping themselves with elemental energy.

In this wiki we are talking rn, elemental energy has been accepted has an UES. Im not telling u something stated in game, im telling u a fact. If u disagree with said statment, go ahead and make a CRT

Prove that the Traveler is?

Traveler physicals vs Skof
Traveler elements vs Skof
And tell me, if elements are stronger by a large marge, why wouldn't Traveler use elements against SnK nor Rerir even do if he failed the entire nation would go downhill?

Coma? Dude gets pushed back by Diluc’s attack and Venti’s attack combined.

Barely moves an inche when Diluc attacks and goes for a kick nap when Venti shots arrow*

Because this whole quest has this narrative of letting Varka be the hero, hell, that’s what our Dvalin says as well, and that’s what the Youtube description for the cutscene implies as well:
“No turn of fate can change the character a person already carries. But sometimes, it can make the ending a little less tragic.
Though unrealized, this legend remains a hero's story all the same. Just not one meant for children.”
And even if the Traveler was totally trying to kill Dvalin and not let Varka do it, why does he have to take the spotlight and use all his power?

Deadass ur argument is "Hoyo wanted Varka to be the hero so Traveler couldn't unleash all his power"?
They wanted him DEAD, there litterally no evidence to say "Well Traveler was actually going 0.0000000001% of his 1E Strength"
U are a gennually larper

“With this, we can fight Dvalin on equal footing. The greatest poet under heaven has come to lend a hand.”

Just refers to neutral conditions. Nothing more.

So ur just prooving the team was just equal to Dvalin because of Venti

Varka: Yeah, it was a kind of... prophecy. It felt so real, I doubt I could ever forget it.
Varka: In the end... You were able to seal Dvalin away, but you were wounded in the process.

Are we scaling now of events that didn't happend?

you’ve failed to fulfil it and you haven’t address the fact that he’s imbuing us with his power to heal us. Prove it’s amping our stats.

I did and u just ignore it, because "gameplay mechanics" which if that was the case we would had get a gameplay amp in SnK with the Knowledge thing or better, we would gain more power with the Marrow, since with that we could face Rerir

It proves that the Traveler is relative to Zhongli

Worst take in human story

• Childe says he is no match for Gnosiless Zhongli
• Entire Liyue Cast, Traveler included and some stronger character such as Xiao and Cloud Retainer were no match for Osial. Which was Zhongli's rival in AW (Do most source implied he got one tap lmao)

Skirk’s training happened before Natlan. It happened in Fontaine. The travel log shows as much.

Skirk's quest has more consistencies for it to be Natlan Arc. Such as

• The sword traveler uses
• Knowledge of fake sky (only gets reveal to him in 5.1)
• An iteam given in the quest which is a recopilation of ur training, but somehow gives u Natlan materials
• Nod Krai annedocte telling u, not a long of time has pass since we meet

get extra set of constellation, i.e, buffs

Gameplay constellations aren't canon, this was accepted in my previous CRT

If nobody scales to Bakunawa, then how was they able to do significant damage to it and realise that it had insane regeneration?

So by same logic we could scale Bakunawa to Sinner lvl, because it could much Rhinne's arm right?

The sacred flame also amps us

The sacred flame is not an amp...

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Because the goal was not to kill Roland. The hax comes into play to aid in the plan to carry the idea into Boreas.

Correct, and the idea to separate and isolate the abyssal energy is brought up way later in the quest, far after the characters go through planning. Varka dropped it right as the traveler arrived, at a time where they did not want to kill Roland.

Where did you get that idea? What we’re told in the game’s quest summaries and dialogue is Dvalin is chased off/defeated.

The EN just says defeated, but the CN is a bit more nuanced:

當你正準備按照安柏的指示嘗試操作風之翼時，一條巨龍卻突然襲擊了蒙德城，並在城內掀起了數道暴風，你猝不及防被暴風捲到了高空，但是當你展開風之翼時，卻被神秘的流風始終托舉到高空，直到你擊退了那條巨龍⋯

It uses 擊退那條巨龍, since we observe on screen that Dvalin was already starting to leave, it’s read as “until the dragon finished retreating after your attack”, as in, Dvalin was already leaving, and our attack made him fully retreat.

That is not what collateral means and it doesn’t change the fact that Gosoythoth was sending specific attacks after Traveler not just Mavuika.

Two things:
1. Collateral can also broadly mean secondary effects of something, but sure, my bad for the terminology confusion.
2. You’re not addressing the point here. Anyone can cancel out the attacks if the force applied on them is low enough. A baby can stop my punch if i don’t punch it hard enough. The problem arises in assuming that Gosoythoth was splitting its power equally against Mavuika and Traveler to assert any sort of scaling between them.

Vichama (is that his name?) commenting on how tough it is doesn’t translate to the Traveler can’t beat it. We have literally zero context for what the Traveler was even doing in that fight especially since the dialogue before this has the guy tell Traveler to “leave combat to him”

This is such a cope argument. I’m not sure if you even watched the source i sent over:

1. Vichama is the one fighting with us. Guthred, the Khaenri’ahn comrade of The Captain amping us and destroying the goon’s protection, tells us to leave it to him after we couldn’t even scratch it. We only beat the enemy with Guthred’s help, otherwise we were just doing no damage. Guthred says this after we fight it and visibly do no damage.

2. We are actively fighting with them. That’s why the game doesn’t let us damage the abyssal entity almost in the slightest. Moreover, Traveler has to get past this being in order to reach the battlefield. Why would he not participate in the fight if his companions aren’t even able to harm the enemy? Does he like watching his friends and companions getting cooked? The traveler is fighting with Vichama, Vichama says that they can almost not at all damage it, means that the Traveler + Vichama + the others could not damage it.

The CN literally says it’s very hard for us to deal any damage to it.

What’s so hard to understand here?

Yeah and?

So that’s us being amped by the wayob?

Is there a reason why? Prime Venti would be him shortly after ascension when everyone would have eyes on him. Why would all archons scale to that.

Yes, because as i said, Venti with the gnosis, as in, Venti when he claimed to be the weakest archon, is the same as prime venti. He didn’t get weaker, just didn’t get stronger.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

If i raise a knife with 2 hand for protection and even then u get not a single brush by the sharpess, u litterally not selling my knife AP.
This is basic powerscaling

That means i’m not getting damage by you simply raising your hand with the sword. You’re mentioning basic powerscaling, but you do know that energy (rate of doing work) increases with the force applied right? This is the most basic formula ever. All you did was raise your sword, you didn’t try to stab me at full force, and you didn’t try to apply your energy into that.

In this wiki we are talking rn, elemental energy has been accepted has an UES. Im not telling u something stated in game, im telling u a fact. If u disagree with said statment, go ahead and make a CRT

A UES means that characters’s stats scale to other stats. Do you think Naruto’s punch scales to Naruto’s punch when he’s infusing Chakra into it? Having an UES doesn’t mean that every stat is automatically the same. It’s the same when you can statistically amplify your stats with that energy.

Traveler physicals vs Skof
Traveler elements vs Skof

You’re actually supporting my point. Traveler’s physicals aren’t shown to do significant damage, they have to gang together with skirk and even then, Skofnunger isn’t as affected.

Also, characters can be amplifying their AP with elemental energy. In this case, he could. You’re the one with the burden to prove that he was doing so against Dvalin, though.

And tell me, if elements are stronger by a large marge, why wouldn't Traveler use elements against SnK nor Rerir even do if he failed the entire nation would go downhill?

He was using his elements against Rerir several times, and they’ve only actually one confrontation where he vastly wasn’t (we did not see the full fight, half of it was offscreen), and moreover, he used it against Dottore everytime. Specifically, he also used Nightsoul to only amp his AP, because his sword strikes have Nightsoul animations.

He also used what is likely shown to be Geo against SnK, and possibly anemo due to how the Wind gathers up.

Barely moves an inche when Diluc attacks and goes for a kick nap when Venti shots arrow*

Headcanon. This never happened. You seem hellbent on not proving so too.

Deadass ur argument is "Hoyo wanted Varka to be the hero so Traveler couldn't unleash all his power"?

Because that’s what they imply? Why do you think Dvalin brought it up, and they let Varka take the final strike, and the traveler doesn’t even try to hit Dvalin throughout the battle?

They wanted him DEAD, there litterally no evidence to say "Well Traveler was actually going 0.0000000001% of his 1E Strength"
U are a gennually larper

Ok, so they wanted him dead. There is no evidence that them wanting Dvalin dead means “Traveler was actually using 100% of his strength!!”. Talk about larping, but then you fail to actually fulfil your burden of proof.

So ur just prooving the team was just equal to Dvalin because of Venti

The statement does not say that they were equal. It says they were on equal grounds. Do you know what equal grounds mean?

Are we scaling now of events that didn't happend?

They are events that can happen, and Venti woke up in the original timeline and then tried to save Dvalin, but without the Traveler, he would’ve gotten severely hurt.

I did and u just ignore it, because "gameplay mechanics" which if that was the case we would had get a gameplay amp in SnK with the Knowledge thing or better, we would gain more power with the Marrow, since with that we could face Rerir

First of all, i did not ignore it. You just committed a non-sequitur fallacy. Imbuing someone with your energy can also just refer to healing them especially since that’s what happens in the gameplay. Prove that imbuing someone with energy means that they are getting amped stat wise.

Second off, we don’t get an amp against SnK because the knowledge of the 168 cycles did not give us a stat boost. The traveler only got mental experience related to Scara, not related to fighting. He essentially had precognition. This knowledge capsule wasn’t similar to the one Al-haitham gave us to improve our stats.

Further, Traveler does get a gameplay amp, through the Neo-Akasha terminal, which harnessed strength from the collective knowledge of Sumeru.

The Moon Marrow giving the Traveler any sort of amp is dubious. The traveler only works as a storage unit and only was said to have more affinity to Kuuvakhi. If they were actually able to draw upon all its strength, are you saying they were as strong as Canon? Because they weren’t, and the 6.3 event says that Traveler was stronger without the Moon Marrow, showing it wasn’t significant. Do you think the Traveler gets stronger by absorbing Abyssal Energy?

Childe says he is no match for Gnosiless Zhongli

1. That’s not what Childe says. That’s what the Traveler says.
2. Mistranslation:

鍾離先生，最近可好啊？嗯…還不錯？看來他倒是挺適應作為「凡人」的生活嘛。可惡…竟然把我騙得團團轉，只有痛痛快快地交戰一場才能平息這份不甘！
你說…我打不過他？哈哈哈…

“Mr. Zhongli, how have you been recently? Hmm… not bad? Looks like he’s actually adapting quite well to living as a ‘mortal.’
Damn it… he really had me completely fooled. Only a proper, all-out fight will settle this resentment of mine!
You’re saying… I can’t beat him? Hahaha…”

• Entire Liyue Cast, Traveler included and some stronger character such as Xiao and Cloud Retainer were no match for Osial. Which was Zhongli's rival in AW (Do most source implied he got one tap lmao)

Were no match for Osial? This is straight headcanon:
“Faced with the terrifying might of the Overlord of the Vortex, you fight bitterly but are ultimately unable to protect the Guizhong Ballistas. The Overlord of the Vortex, however, is also badly wounded. To protect Liyue, Ningguang sacrifices the Jade Chamber, plunging it into the ocean and successfully suppressing the evil god”
- Travel log Summary
How do you manage to LARP so much that you’re wrong on every point?

The sword traveler uses

Traveler started using his sword anywhere after 4.6 and before 5.0. This means that the Skirk’s story quest must’ve happened after 4.6, but we learn from the Travel log that it actually happened in Fontaine because it places it in the Fontaine Arc part and not the Natlan arc part.

Knowledge of fake sky (only gets reveal to him in 5.1)

The fake sky knowledge was already revealed to us back in 1.1 in the Unreconciled Stars event. Moreover, the Traveler is a descender, someone who’s crossed the border of Tevyat, and in the 1.1 event, even Mona mentions the fake sky. Moreover, the Traveler already knew of the Fake Sky, they are the ones who mentioned it first to Mavuika, and she just says that this might be the first proof for it’s existence:

Traveler: About the false sky and the strange fragments...
Mavuika: "False sky"... I have heard this expression before, but I think this was the first proof of its existence

It is us that she even quotes.

An iteam given in the quest which is a recopilation of ur training, but somehow gives u Natlan materials

True, it does, but we have plenty of evidence implying that it takes before Fontaine, so this doesn’t necessarily imply it takes place during Natlan. The reason is because canonically it takes place right before we go to Natlan.

Nod Krai annedocte telling u, not a long of time has pass since we meet

How long did we spend in Natlanv

Gameplay constellations aren't canon, this was accepted in my previous CRT

Their effects don’t have to be. However, they specifically gave constellations just for the boss fight. Like i said, HoYo has always given us amps when we get amps in lore. Why should this be treated any different? You’re basically saying “They gave us amps in game whenever they gave amps in lore every other time but this time they didn’t”.

So by same logic we could scale Bakunawa to Sinner lvl, because it could much Rhinne's arm right?

Wrong, because Bakunawa did not eat Sinner Rhinedottir’s arm:

存在於牠體內的力量，是連當時的黃金和我們深淵教團也無法掌握的力量。那股力量，連時間也能侵蝕…
“The power within its body is a power that even Gold at that time, and we of the Abyss Order, were unable to control. That power could even erode time itself…”

The sacred flame is not an amp...

It is. You know it’s the Pyro Archon’s power right?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Correct, and the idea to separate and isolate the abyssal energy is brought up way later in the quest, far after the characters go through planning. Varka dropped it right as the traveler arrived, at a time where they did not want to kill Roland.

The EN just says defeated, but the CN is a bit more nuanced:



It uses 擊退那條巨龍, since we observe on screen that Dvalin was already starting to leave, it’s read as “until the dragon finished retreating after your attack”, as in, Dvalin was already leaving, and our attack made him fully retreat.

Two things:
1. Collateral can also broadly mean secondary effects of something, but sure, my bad for the terminology confusion.
2. You’re not addressing the point here. Anyone can cancel out the attacks if the force applied on them is low enough. A baby can stop my punch if i don’t punch it hard enough. The problem arises in assuming that Gosoythoth was splitting its power equally against Mavuika and Traveler to assert any sort of scaling between them.

This is such a cope argument. I’m not sure if you even watched the source i sent over:

1. Vichama is the one fighting with us. Guthred, the Khaenri’ahn comrade of The Captain amping us and destroying the goon’s protection, tells us to leave it to him after we couldn’t even scratch it. We only beat the enemy with Guthred’s help, otherwise we were just doing no damage. Guthred says this after we fight it and visibly do no damage.

2. We are actively fighting with them. That’s why the game doesn’t let us damage the abyssal entity almost in the slightest. Moreover, Traveler has to get past this being in order to reach the battlefield. Why would he not participate in the fight if his companions aren’t even able to harm the enemy? Does he like watching his friends and companions getting cooked? The traveler is fighting with Vichama, Vichama says that they can almost not at all damage it, means that the Traveler + Vichama + the others could not damage it.

The CN literally says it’s very hard for us to deal any damage to it.

What’s so hard to understand here?

So that’s us being amped by the wayob?

Yes, because as i said, Venti with the gnosis, as in, Venti when he claimed to be the weakest archon, is the same as prime venti. He didn’t get weaker, just didn’t get stronger.

But didn’t Varka always have this idea as one of the mages brought it up to him pre Nod Krai?

Idk man the idea of “finished retreating after your attack” just reads as he was attacked and ran away. I don’t see any idea of he was already retreating.

You’d need to prove the energy behind the attacks was low though.

1. I don’t see how this is cope. Vichama said to leave fighting to him and the Traveler has been taking all the help they can get so far.

2. You can also very much choose to not help. If you even help you do damage the void ward so Vichama is wrong about Traveler beinh unable to scratch it if the Traveler even intervened in the fight. Again my point is we have no clue what Traveler is doing. Like if you are treating Vichama as correct that he can’t hurt it then should you not take his words as a fact that he is handling combat?

Vichama was not the only one fighting though. Bona was there, Och Kan was there.

Yes? Are we arguing that Traveler wasn’t amped when they made it to the arena?

When Venti lets us know he is the weakest, isn’t that after Signora mugged him?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

But didn’t Varka always have this idea as one of the mages brought it up to him pre Nod Krai?

The idea was purifying. Not separating and isolating. That was new to even the Traveler, because he has always absorbed/purified the abyss.

Idk man the idea of “finished retreating after your attack” just reads as he was attacked and ran away. I don’t see any idea of he was already retreating.

So how do you explain the fact that Dvalin was already flying away from us even though we didn’t even start attacking? I already pasted a scan above.

You’d need to prove the energy behind the attacks was low though.

Mavuika is implicitly way more of a threat than the Traveler. Gosoythoth can discern this because she literally just destroyed his core before. Obviously Gosoythoth would give focus to the stronger opponent. Like i said before, if you fought a 16 year old and a 4 year old, who would you give more focus towards?

1. I don’t see how this is cope. Vichama said to leave fighting to him and the Traveler has been taking all the help they can get so far.

Vichama doesn’t say to leave the fighting to him?? What are you talking about? That was Guthred, after seeing that we couldn’t even harm it.

Also?? Just because we’re taking all the help we can get doesn’t mean that we aren’t gonna help out even when the help we’re taking can’t do anything.

2. You can also very much choose to not help. If you even help you do damage the void ward so Vichama is wrong about Traveler beinh unable to scratch it if the Traveler even intervened in the fight. Again my point is we have no clue what Traveler is doing. Like if you are treating Vichama as correct that he can’t hurt it then should you not take his words as a fact that he is handling combat?

Why would we choose not to help if the frontline warriors are fighting against something that they can’t even harm, much less defeat? Are you hearing yourself? The Traveler had to defeat this opponent to go further. If he can’t, then he has to stay here, that is just making Mavuika wait and we learn later that this is something the Traveler explicitly doesn’t want to do so and is even motivated by other characters to not do so.

If you had to finish a puzzle in order to move to the next level, but your friends say that they want to do it in your place(only you’re progressing to the next level, not them), wouldn’t you solve it with them seeing that they can’t even crack it’s basics??

Further, you can only do a few points against it, hence why “it’s almost impenetrable”. You cannot do more than a level of damage. Moreover, if the narrative intent was to have them solely fight, then the Traveler wouldn’t be allowed to fight gameplay wise. That’s something HoYo has done before.

Idk what you’re talking about, Vichama doesn’t tell us to leave it to him. It was guthred:

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_of_Stars_and_Flames

Vichama was not the only one fighting though. Bona was there, Och Kan was there.

Bona and Cocouik were there, yes. And even they couldn’t even harm it. Together. All of them fought, the Traveler, Cocouik, Bona, etc, could not damage it.

Also, just letting you know, but you’re nuking your own argument by bringing up Cocouik.

Yes? Are we arguing that Traveler wasn’t amped when they made it to the arena?

I’m confused. They were amped by the Wayob. That is all i said.

When Venti lets us know he is the weakest, isn’t that after Signora mugged him?

Uhh no, that is before we even have our final battle with Dvalin.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The idea was purifying. Not separating and isolating. That was new to even the Traveler, because he has always absorbed/purified the abyss.


So how do you explain the fact that Dvalin was already flying away from us even though we didn’t even start attacking? I already pasted a scan above.

Mavuika is implicitly way more of a threat than the Traveler. Gosoythoth can discern this because she literally just destroyed his core before. Obviously Gosoythoth would give focus to the stronger opponent. Like i said before, if you fought a 16 year old and a 4 year old, who would you give more focus towards?

Vichama doesn’t say to leave the fighting to him?? What are you talking about? That was Guthred, after seeing that we couldn’t even harm it.

Also?? Just because we’re taking all the help we can get doesn’t mean that we aren’t gonna help out even when the help we’re taking can’t do anything.

Why would we choose not to help if the frontline warriors are fighting against something that they can’t even harm, much less defeat? Are you hearing yourself? The Traveler had to defeat this opponent to go further. If he can’t, then he has to stay here, that is just making Mavuika wait and we learn later that this is something the Traveler explicitly doesn’t want to do so and is even motivated by other characters to not do so.

If you had to finish a puzzle in order to move to the next level, but your friends say that they want to do it in your place(only you’re progressing to the next level, not them), wouldn’t you solve it with them seeing that they can’t even crack it’s basics??

Further, you can only do a few points against it, hence why “it’s almost impenetrable”. You cannot do more than a level of damage. Moreover, if the narrative intent was to have them solely fight, then the Traveler wouldn’t be allowed to fight gameplay wise. That’s something HoYo has done before.

Idk what you’re talking about, Vichama doesn’t tell us to leave it to him. It was guthred:

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_of_Stars_and_Flames

Bona and Cocouik were there, yes. And even they couldn’t even harm it. Together. All of them fought, the Traveler, Cocouik, Bona, etc, could not damage it.

Also, just letting you know, but you’re nuking your own argument by bringing up Cocouik.

I’m confused. They were amped by the Wayob. That is all i said.

Uhh no, that is before we even have our final battle with Dvalin.

Yes but Varka had the idea even before these events.

Perhaps he was just flying around like he was gonna turn around and just keep moving about like he did in the cutscene. Dvalin literally flies in, damages a building, flies out of Mondstadt and comes back around.

Of course I’d give focus to the 16 year old but I wouldn’t pull my punches on the 4 year old if it was a life and death situation.



Because they landed a few hits, realised they weren’t doing anything and Guthred intervened. It wasn’t like it was a several hour long battle. The Traveler was trying to help Mavuika sure but they also understand that they can’t expend all their strength before the big showdown.

Hoyo have also had several battles in which the Traveler or another playable character is present but doesn’t appear in the party.

Yes if my hands are taking too long I’d intervene however I’m less likely to intervene if doing so expends stamina I would need for later stuff.

Cocouik would be weaker than Abyssal Och Kan + Cocouik since we agree the Abyss is an amp. Cocouik’s inability to harm something doesn’t affect the Traveler as the Traveler bested Och Kan with his soul.

Ok? So what about it? Are we both confused because I don’t get why we’re talking about the wayob. I agree the Traveler was buffed when they 1v1’d Gosoythoth. You presented evidence to that

Seriously? Dang I always thought that was from the Windrise conversation. Guess I was wrong.

btw Frostyy were would you put the Traveler? Like what would you scale them to?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Yes but Varka had the idea even before these events.

He did not. Varka just got a very vague glimpse of what is going to happen, not about specifics. Can Barbeloth even see Descenders? She uses Hydromancy, which reflects Tevyat’s fate.

Perhaps he was just flying around like he was gonna turn around and just keep moving about like he did in the cutscene. Dvalin literally flies in, damages a building, flies out of Mondstadt and comes back around.

Dawg, he literally leaves. He doesn’t turn. He goes in a straight line. He comes at us, and then he keeps going in a straight line with no indication of a turn. I don’t know what yiu’re talking about.

Of course I’d give focus to the 16 year old but I wouldn’t pull my punches on the 4 year old if it was a life and death situation.

You’re extremely limited on how much force you can apply on the 4 year old if the 16 year old is a massive threat to you. You have no idea that the 4 year old is gonna get amped with Super Saiyan in a few minutes. Any sane combatant would put most force on the 16 year old and relatively less on the 4 year old due to strategic considerations.

The 4 year old has extremely limited physical capability and cannot inflict harm on you. The idea is neutralising the biggest threat WHILE keeping aware of the other.

That just means out of them two, he’s the fighter and Malko was the support to keep the abyssal corruption at bay. If you’d just scrolled a few lines further, you’d understand what i’m saying. Bona quite literally tells the traveler that we’re as strong as ever. If he was just letting the others fight, then how could she discern that? This is actually a dealbreaker evidence, it means that the Traveler was actually fighting.

He’s also the one leading them. He’s the frontmost character, why would he be standing in front of the intention was that he’s staying back to “conserve stamina”?

Because they landed a few hits, realised they weren’t doing anything and Guthred intervened. It wasn’t like it was a several hour long battle. The Traveler was trying to help Mavuika sure but they also understand that they can’t expend all their strength before the big showdown.

It doesn’t need to be a several long hour battle. They say that it’s not within their capabilities to harm the enemy. You do know that characters know their own strength and get a gauge of the enemy’s strength right? That’s how they conclude that they can’t even damage the enemy. Guthred comes in and oneshots the enemy’s protection, and he does so because we couldn’t do anything.

You’re serious? What’s there to worry about expending strength if you can’t even get to the battlefield lmao.

Hoyo have also had several battles in which the Traveler or another playable character is present but doesn’t appear in the party.

One thing to have a playable character present in the party and another thing to have buffs and amps translate to gameplay. Moreover, HoYo has been consistently doing what you just said. Example; Neuvi not in the playables because he’s not directly fighting the Narwhal.

Yes if my hands are taking too long I’d intervene however I’m less likely to intervene if doing so expends stamina I would need for later stuff.

They’re not “taking too long”. They’re entirely unable to even move to the next step. They can’t even crack the most basic part of it and they tell you “bro this is too hard”. Your “expanding stamina” is utter stupidity if you can’t even move to the next level.

Cocouik would be weaker than Abyssal Och Kan + Cocouik since we agree the Abyss is an amp. Cocouik’s inability to harm something doesn’t affect the Traveler as the Traveler bested Och Kan with his soul.

Incorrect. Cocouik is strong enough to damage abyssal Ochkan to a significant degree. Several beams were enough to defeat Ochkan when the Traveler took much longer. In fact, at one point in the quest, we were relying on Cocouik’s power to deal with Ochkan.

Cocouik and the Traveler and inarguably relative. Kulkulan even talks down on us at one point for not beating Ochkan properly.

btw Frostyy were would you put the Traveler? Like what would you scale them to?

Like 6E traveler? Based off their performance in the 5.4 event, they should be relative to Ei at the very least.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Incorrect. Cocouik is strong enough to damage abyssal Ochkan to a significant degree. Several beams were enough to defeat Ochkan when the Traveler took much longer. In fact, at one point in the quest, we were relying on Cocouik’s power to deal with Ochkan.

Cocouik and the Traveler and inarguably relative. Kulkulan even talks down on us at one point for not beating Ochkan properly.

Like 6E traveler? Based off their performance in the 5.4 event, they should be relative to Ei at the very least.

Cocouik fused with Abyssal Och-Kan > Cocuik by himself. It’s just their powers added together and Traveler beat him like this so yes Cocouik without the Abyss boost is weaker than Traveler. Cocouik was relied upon because his attacks were highly effective on his Abyssal self and as has been brought up in this event, handling a flying enemy isn’t easy.


Sure I’ll agree with your scaling. Let’s stop debating the Traveler’s scaling then

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Cocouik fused with Abyssal Och-Kan > Cocuik by himself. It’s just their powers added together and Traveler beat him like this so yes Cocouik without the Abyss boost is weaker than Traveler.

Correct, the Traveler is stronger than Ochkan fused with Cocouik. Nobody disagreed with that. The issue is that you ignore the fact that Cocouik was still individually strong enough to keep up with the Traveler and at times, do more damage at single instances to Ochkan than the Traveler.

Also, worth noting that Abyssal Ochkan was almost dead at the hands of Cocouik before. While the fusion made them stronger, we should also consider the aforementioned event into account. The fact that someone who’s got very solid relativity with the 5E traveler couldn’t even harm the abyssal entity is pretty wild.

Regardless, it doesn’t matter, because the Traveler fought against the Abyssal Entity either way, and Bona’s statement proves this.

Cocouik was relied upon because his attacks were highly effective on his Abyssal self and as has been brought up in this event, handling a flying enemy isn’t easy.

Cocouik was relied upon because his attacks were really strong. The idea of them being really effective against his abyssal self like the Traveler is against Abyssal entities is said nowhere, and why would Cocouik have anti-abyssal properties like this?

Ochkan also was on the ground during our first direct exchange. He only started fighting at the very end to escape.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Cocouik was relied upon because his attacks were really strong. The idea of them being really effective against his abyssal self like the Traveler is against Abyssal entities is said nowhere, and why would Cocouik have anti-abyssal properties like this?

The Adventurer Bona's mysterious companion "Cocouik" seems to have a marvelous ability to suppress the corrosive power of the Abyss.
When traveling together, "Cocouik" will project a halo from its body, helping protect you from the threat of the Abyss by consuming Phlogiston. Under the influence of the halos, the corrosive Abyssal Blight will be suppressed and melted away, and monsters that possess Void Shields will be continually damaged.

When "Cocouik"'s energy is fully charged, a powerful beam can be shot at the Abyss. This beam is highly effective against evil dragons corroded by the Abyss.

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Cocouik

Considering Cocouik is a dragon who can almost definitely utilise Phlogiston as he drains Phlogiston to use his abilities I'd say that is the reason he's very effective on the Abyss

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Considering Cocouik is a dragon who can almost definitely utilise Phlogiston as he drains Phlogiston to use his abilities I'd say that is the reason he's very effective on the Abyss

But that’s not an intrinsic property of Cocouik. You’re overlooking two things here:

1. This is a property of Phlogiston itself, as what you pasted says so itself. The reason Cocouik is effective against the Abyss is because he uses Phlogiston. However, that’s is not anything special. The Traveler has Phlogiston authority as well. Cocouik’s attacks against Ochkan aren’t more effective than Traveler’s attacks over Ochkan, because their “effectiveness” stem from the same thing: Primordial Elemental Energy. This is why the PO branded the modern day elements based off Phlogiston. So Cocouik isn’t taken because he can just combat the abyss better. It’s because of how well he does it due to how much power he’s outputting.

“The power of the Abyss descends upon the world, displaying a rejection of all that is. Targets protected by Void Wards cannot be damaged while defended by it. Only by attacking with Elemental Attacks a certain number of times can it be destroyed. Additionally, Nightsoul-aligned Elementalattacks seem able to destroy Void Wards with greater ease...”

So Cocouik doesn’t have any advantage here. They’re on equal grounds precisely because they both manipulate Phlogiston. Cocouik’s AP is just as great, and that’s why he’s so relevant.

2. Cocouik is fighting against Abyssal opponents in the Night Kingdom with Bona as well. Moreover, he can passively destroy Void Shields using Phlogiston on normal enemies, but could barely scratch it against the enemy we fought.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

But that’s not an intrinsic property of Cocouik. You’re overlooking two things here:

1. This is a property of Phlogiston itself, as what you pasted says so itself. The reason Cocouik is effective against the Abyss is because he uses Phlogiston. However, that’s is not anything special. The Traveler has Phlogiston authority as well. Cocouik’s attacks against Ochkan aren’t more effective than Traveler’s attacks over Ochkan, because their “effectiveness” stem from the same thing: Primordial Elemental Energy. This is why the PO branded the modern day elements based off Phlogiston. So Cocouik isn’t taken because he can just combat the abyss better. It’s because of how well he does it due to how much power he’s outputting.

“The power of the Abyss descends upon the world, displaying a rejection of all that is. Targets protected by Void Wards cannot be damaged while defended by it. Only by attacking with Elemental Attacks a certain number of times can it be destroyed. Additionally, Nightsoul-aligned Elementalattacks seem able to destroy Void Wards with greater ease...”

So Cocouik doesn’t have any advantage here. They’re on equal grounds precisely because they both manipulate Phlogiston. Cocouik’s AP is just as great, and that’s why he’s so relevant.

2. Cocouik is fighting against Abyssal opponents in the Night Kingdom with Bona as well. Moreover, he can passively destroy Void Shields using Phlogiston on normal enemies, but could barely scratch it against the enemy we fought.

Frostyy I'm not debating the Night Kingdom point anymore. I've agreed to your scaling. What I am saying is that the game itself tells us that Cocouik is very effective against the Abyss. Also speaking of Traveler's Phlogiston stuff, do we ever see them use it offensively?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

What I am saying is that the game itself tells us that Cocouik is very effective against the Abyss.

Yes, i’m saying that it’s something because he’s using phlogiston. Because the Traveler has that too, it becomes a non-factor.

Also speaking of Traveler's Phlogiston stuff, do we ever see them use it offensively?

He should be using Phlogiston offensively, since the Traveler has shown to be adept in Phlogiston manipulation throughout, and even normal humans use it for combat.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Yes, i’m saying that it’s something because he’s using phlogiston. Because the Traveler has that too, it becomes a non-factor.

He should be using Phlogiston offensively, since the Traveler has shown to be adept in Phlogiston manipulation throughout, and even normal humans use it for combat.

Is Phlogiston not only used by other humans through Nightsoul and like a couple other techniques? I don't recall Traveler doing anything like that and their basic attacks aren't specifically called out to be good against the Abyss.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Is Phlogiston not only used by other humans through Nightsoul and like a couple other techniques?

Nightsoul blessings require you to have Nightsoul engravings. Usually, those are obtained by getting an Ancient Name. Other than that, normal Humans can conceivably use Phlogiston in combat. Those who cannot, are seen as exceptions. This is a major plot point in one of the quests in Natlan, when you explore the floating Island in the People of the Springs.

I don't recall Traveler doing anything like that and their basic attacks aren't specifically called out to be good against the Abyss.

Everyone’s attack is good against the Abyss. That’s because Elemental energy in and of itself is said to be an effective counter against the Abyss. Phlogiston is just a higher degree of it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Nightsoul blessings require you to have Nightsoul engravings. Usually, those are obtained by getting an Ancient Name. Other than that, normal Humans can conceivably use Phlogiston in combat. Those who cannot, are seen as exceptions. This is a major plot point in one of the quests in Natlan, when you explore the floating Island in the People of the Springs.

Everyone’s attack is good against the Abyss. That’s because Elemental energy in and of itself is said to be an effective counter against the Abyss. Phlogiston is just a higher degree of it.

Do you recall the name of the quest? When it is said to be an exception? I don’t disagree they can use Phlogiston but we never see any humans using it to repel the Abyss like Och Kan or do annhilation reactions like the Astral Assemblage.

Yes but Cocouik is specifically called out by the game as being really effective on the Abyss. Traveler has elemental power sure but weaponising Phlogiston is just something they never do or show.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Do you recall the name of the quest? When it is said to be an exception?

Should be this:

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Tale_of_Dreams_Plucked_From_Fire

I don’t disagree they can use Phlogiston but we never see any humans using it to repel the Abyss like Och Kan or do annhilation reactions like the Astral Assemblage.

All of them use Phlogiston to repel the abyss. That’s kinda the basis for Natlan. Way back before Xbalanque even ascended as a God, Kukulkan taught humans how to use Phlogiston. Everyone instead started using it to kill each other and perform wars.

Yes but Cocouik is specifically called out by the game as being really effective on the Abyss. Traveler has elemental power sure but weaponising Phlogiston is just something they never do or show.

I don’t think they need to show it. It’s something that is a given. It’s not the same for Cocouik because he’s a floating blue mysterious ball at that point of the quest.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Should be this:

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Tale_of_Dreams_Plucked_From_Fire

All of them use Phlogiston to repel the abyss. That’s kinda the basis for Natlan. Way back before Xbalanque even ascended as a God, Kukulkan taught humans how to use Phlogiston. Everyone instead started using it to kill each other and perform wars.

I don’t think they need to show it. It’s something that is a given. It’s not the same for Cocouik because he’s a floating blue mysterious ball at that point of the quest.

Thanks.

Yes people use Phlogiston but that's for things like tatoos, graffiti, phlogiston scripts, spiritways or to power things. We just never see anyone like punch and through Phlogiston itself or even personally generate it which is why I'm doubtful it is combat applicable without some special tool, especially since normal humans can't generate elements without a Vision, Delusion or Abyss.

I mean if you're introducing a group of people with a new type of power then yes yu'd show it. Other humans can't use Phlogiston. All the Phlogiston use we see of humans is not them generating it.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Yes people use Phlogiston but that's for things like tatoos, graffiti, phlogiston scripts, spiritways or to power things. We just never see anyone like punch and through Phlogiston itself or even personally generate it which is why I'm doubtful it is combat applicable without some special tool, especially since normal humans can't generate elements without a Vision, Delusion or Abyss.

People use it for combat as well. That’s what happened after Kulkulkan taught the humans phlogiston. They used it on each other and started wars and whatnot. In fact, even against the war between Xiuhcoatl and Xbalanque, Xbalanque’s side’s phlogiston manipulation was compared to that of an average vishap and that it was spoken in a combat relevant context.

Humans don’t generate elements though…? They draw in elements from the natural environment. That’s what humans in Natlan do as well.

I mean if you're introducing a group of people with a new type of power then yes yu'd show it. Other humans can't use Phlogiston. All the Phlogiston use we see of humans is not them generating it.

I’m sure there’s plenty of statements scattered throughout Natlan saying how the people of Natlan use Phlogiston to combat the abyss. That’s something like, really basic. Nearly everyone can use phlogiston. Generating “phlogiston” doesn’t even make sense as a point? Phlogiston is like the elements. They exist everywhere.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

People use it for combat as well. That’s what happened after Kulkulkan taught the humans phlogiston. They used it on each other and started wars and whatnot. In fact, even against the war between Xiuhcoatl and Xbalanque, Xbalanque’s side’s phlogiston manipulation was compared to that of an average vishap and that it was spoken in a combat relevant context.

Humans don’t generate elements though…? They draw in elements from the natural environment. That’s what humans in Natlan do as well.

I’m sure there’s plenty of statements scattered throughout Natlan saying how the people of Natlan use Phlogiston to combat the abyss. That’s something like, really basic. Nearly everyone can use phlogiston. Generating “phlogiston” doesn’t even make sense as a point? Phlogiston is like the elements. They exist everywhere.

Yes but like what I'm saying is they aren't throwing Phlogiston fire balls and such they probably just used it to power tools and for their phlogiston engravings like they do now. Seriously? Christ I thought I knew Genshin lore. Was it mentioned in an artifact set?

Yes but normal humans can't use the elements without an aid.