Paper Mario Mixing and Making (Another Mario Profile Revision)

[ZespeonGalaxy]

You mean the "50 questions in 2 minutes" interview where he literally just answers with "yes" without elaboration and then they move on to something unrelated? Fantastic evidence.

NGL this just screams "I don't like this piece of evidence"

 

[Armorchompy]

They use the word "parallel" though, and the Koopalings even lampshade this, questioning the existence of parallel versions of them as well. The Peaches talk about how they've experienced the same things down to a tee, and while the game does things to imply that there's two different worlds, it does nothing to imply that anything is remotely different between the two other than haha funny paper joke

I don't put into question that it's a parallel world. I have myself acknowledged that it's likely Paper Mario and Mario Mario have shared a lot of their early adventures and it'd be crazy to deny they're not similar. But being a parallel version of someone still means you aren't the same individual as that someone, and they clearly are different given that one is made of paper and the other isn't. They even have different stats and abilities in PJ gameplay. The paper thing isn't a joke, it's plot-critical.

But there are a couple of instances that could be interpreted as this, like SMRPG AND ESPECIALLY ODYSSEY. Remember that the Toad says that's how Mario "used to look" in 64!

Okay but these are still meta gags. It's in some capacity canon but it doesn't actually imply a world-wide shapeshifting any more that Mario 64 DS implies that the cast just went through the same adventure twice. I would also emphasize that all of these are aesthetic changes that would not confer the cast any new abilities, whereas the Paper stuff is a massive physical change.

Also, please comment on this, I think this is still one of the most damming pieces of evidence for this discussion

What do you want me to say? Yeah, it's a point of evidence in the favor of these being the same, but it's a tiny one several magnitudes more minor than the entirety of Paper Jam and a bunch of other stuff I've brought up. There's always going to be inconsistencies, I freely admit that, but bowser.jpg is a less glaring one than an entire game's plotline and several clear-cut dev statements.

That or maybe Paper Bowser felt like framing a picture of his meat version, they did meet after all

I actually want to highlight this even more, as @AlloyAmi also pointed out how Mario has "baby blues" (his eyes), when the Paper design doesn't have blue, but black. This is additionally prudent to the discussion.

Your argument- which is that Mario does indeed turn to paper- isn't enhanced by that scan, since by your interpretation he doesn't have blue eyes when he's made of paper, which is what that scan is referring to (given it's explaining their behavior in the same game and thus referring to Mario's state in that game). Regardless it's extremely easy to assume that the sprites are just low fidelity enough that his eyes aren't detailed as they should be.

NGL this just screams "I don't like this piece of evidence"

No, it screams "it's useless because it's so devoid of context it could mean a hundred different things". Don't act like Miyamoto hasn't said strange things about Mario canon before, he's clearly not coming at it from the same perspective we are. And again there's equally valuable and much clearer statements of the M&L devs stating Paper Mario is a different universe.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly, what does this CRT even change? Say it gets accepted, Mario still can't change at will to his Paper self given it's a universal thing so P&A-wise it doesn't mean anything, they're still functionally separate, they're just on the same profile now. If we're claiming they're completely altering themselves on an atomic level there isn't even a reason to assume PM feats scale back to his meat self any more than they currently do. You get to move the Pure Hearts from one profile to another, is that worth all the effort?

 

[Galactidot]

I don't put into question that it's a parallel world. I have myself acknowledged that it's likely Paper Mario and Mario Mario have shared a lot of their early adventures and it'd be crazy to deny they're not similar. But being a parallel version of someone still means you aren't the same individual as that someone, and they clearly are different given that one is made of paper and the other isn't. They even have different stats and abilities in PJ gameplay. The paper thing isn't a joke, it's plot-critical.

It's a joke in the first three games. Even the fallen heroes curses are described as curses for a reason --- it's abnormal.

After that one, it isn't a joke and is treated much more literally.

(Honestly, I'd be down for a split of Pre and Post reboot Paper Mario, I believe the first three games are certainly connected, with everyone in the games agreeing as such. It changed with Sticker Star, which was more of a reboot that a sequel, as is known from it's development history after SPM backlash, specifically towards the STORY.)

Okay but these are still meta gags. It's in some capacity canon but it doesn't actually imply a world-wide shapeshifting any more that Mario 64 DS implies that the cast just went through the same adventure twice. I would also emphasize that all of these are aesthetic changes that would not confer the cast any new abilities, whereas the Paper stuff is a massive physical change.

Super Paper Mario does have the Mega Stars and Pal Pills, which goes the opposite way in logic, turning Paper artstyle into 8-bit, and THAT'S certainly not a joke. And then there's the Superstar Saga thing...

What do you want me to say? Yeah, it's a point of evidence in the favor of these being the same, but it's a tiny one several magnitudes more minor than the entirety of Paper Jam and a bunch of other stuff I've brought up. There's always going to be inconsistencies, I freely admit that, but bowser.jpg is a less glaring one than an entire game's plotline and several clear-cut dev statements.

That or maybe Paper Bowser felt like framing a picture of his meat version, they did meet after all

Paper Jams plotline doesn't necessarily work against this thread in the ways that you think, though. And this one is far more recent than Paper Jam.

Considering how the first three games shove "they're the same" down your throat, and Sticker Star and Color Splash do the opposite, Origami King is in a weird in-between state with stuff like this.

Are we going off of recency? Because the first three games actually have potentially more evidence for them being the same than all of Paper Jam has against!

Nah, they hate each other after the ending of Paper Jam.

But lowkenuinely while I have your attention please https://vsbattles.com/threads/super-mario-general-discussion-thread.126259/post-7588741

It doesn't need to be a lengthy response, just a yes or no and clarification if needed is enough

 

[Galactidot]

Honestly, what does this CRT even change? Say it gets accepted, Mario still can't change at will to his Paper self given it's a universal thing so P&A-wise it doesn't mean anything, they're still functionally separate, they're just on the same profile now. If we're claiming they're completely altering themselves on an atomic level there isn't even a reason to assume PM feats scale back to his meat self any more than they currently do. You get to move the Pure Hearts from one profile to another, is that worth all the effort?

Wait, if they're parallel, why don't we just already let the Meat Mario cast use the Pure Hearts? Pure Hearts don't care if the user is made of Paper!

 

[JPTheGamer]

Honestly, what does this CRT even change? Say it gets accepted, Mario still can't change at will to his Paper self given it's a universal thing so P&A-wise it doesn't mean anything, they're still functionally separate, they're just on the same profile now. If we're claiming they're completely altering themselves on an atomic level there isn't even a reason to assume PM feats scale back to his meat self any more than they currently do. You get to move the Pure Hearts from one profile to another, is that worth all the effort?

@SuperMarioGamers3 @Galactidot @ZespeonGalaxy

Sorry guys, but he has a point here.

 

[Starsprite53]

Why are we talking about Pure hearts when they're not even Mario's best arsenal (aside from AP)

 

[IDK3465]

I switch my vote to neutral. I'm honestly fine with either option tbh, but Armor does raise some good points against this.
Besides, as he already said, all this does is slap on the Pure Hearts to regular Mario and give him a new key for his paper self. It doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

@SuperMarioGamers3 @Galactidot @ZespeonGalaxy

Sorry guys, but I think he has a point here.

This wouldn't alter any cosmological feats- it's not like Space or whatnot is also made of Paper as well. But, on top of this, we can see the Paper Mario in Paper Jam just outright scale off of the main cast themselves, so scaling should operate perfectly fine. It's also something that can be seen and shown as a past event in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga DX, which should keep things nice and tidy.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I switch my vote to neutral.

I just added it in.

 

[JPTheGamer]

This wouldn't alter any cosmological feats- it's not like Space or whatnot is also made of Paper as well. But, on top of this, we can see the Paper Mario in Paper Jam just outright scale off of the main cast themselves, so scaling should operate perfectly fine. It's also something that can be seen and shown as a past event in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga DX, which should keep things nice and tidy.

I'm fine with that, but after looking through Armor's arguments, I don't think we can merge the two profiles.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I'm fine with that, but after looking through Armor's arguments, I don't think we can merge the two profiles.

Why?

 

[Chariot190]

There is some shared history between them, but that is it.
I disagree acting as if they're the same, the vast majority of the OP is legit just "trust me bro" or conjecture and guesswork, that simultaneously ignores the numerous contradictions, both implicit and explicit.

May or may not elaborate further when I have time we RE9 atm.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

simultaneously ignores the numerous contradictions, both implicit and explicit.

There are zero contradictions.

 

[Chariot190]

There are zero contradictions.

It may not have been obvious, but I was not so subtly giving my simple disagreement to avoid having to spend ample time ripping the points apart, of which there were many, that as usual, fall into the same trappings as most Mario CRTs. This was me being generous and saving us all some time instead of turning this into another 15 page argument where I have to explain repeatedly why headcanon, guesswork or vibes isn't a sufficient argument and a replacement for explicit evidence nor undercuts concrete contradictory evidence on the flipside.

Evidently, that was not enough, if you legitimately think zero contradictions exists.
I will now be actively partaking in this as soon as I get some free time, give me a few days I suppose.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

There are zero contradictions.

Super Mario land 2 have a contradiction for the artstyles being a canon thing

The name of the game (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden coins) says the golden coins are indeed golden, and even Mario himself says the coins are golden. But actually in the game the golden coins are anything but golden, and in the official coloured version the coins have a bronze-brown color. If the artstyles are canon then the golden coins should be canonically gray/brown, something that contradicts the game name and what characters in-universe (Mario) see.

I Just wanted to remind this.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

If the artstyles are canon then the golden coins should be canonically gray/brown, something that contradicts the game name and what characters in-universe (Mario) see.

That's not an art style contradiction, at best, that's just a contradiction presented in the game.

Plus, it could be just a color error that Nintendo made, as we can see that they're shown to be golden in the commerical and the artwork from the official Japanese website.

 

[Galactidot]

Super Mario land 2 have a contradiction for the artstyles being a canon thing

The name of the game (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden coins) says the golden coins are indeed golden, and even Mario himself says the coins are golden. But actually in the game the golden coins are anything but golden, and in the official coloured version the coins have a bronze-brown color. If the artstyles are canon then the golden coins should be canonically gray/brown, something that contradicts the game name and what characters in-universe (Mario) see.

I Just wanted to remind this.

Okay, look. I wouldn't count this one in particular BECAUSE this comes from a hardware perspective. They're like that because that's how they're being rendered. This was to work around the Gameboy Color's limited color palette. Each game could only have a select set of colors.

Here they are in the commercial, which CAN render any color.

Golden as can be.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

That's not an art style contradiction, at best, that's just a contradiction presented in the game.

Plus, it could be just a color error that Nintendo made, as we can see that they're shown to be golden in the commerical and the artwork from the official Japanese website.

Okay, look. I wouldn't count this one in particular BECAUSE this comes from a hardware perspective. They're like that because that's how they're being rendered. This was to work around the Gameboy Color's limited color palette. Each game could only have a select set of colors.

Here they are in the commercial, which CAN render any color.

Golden as can be.

Using arguments such as "But these are technical limitations" or "the official artwork outside the game draws them differently from what you see in the game" is a double-edged sword argument for you two ngl.

The argument you are using for the CRT is that the artstyle seen in the games is the canon, not the art style seen in official media outside the game. That is why you are arguing that the 8-bit Mario seen in Mario Bros 1 and 3 is canon, that the polygonal Mario from Mario 64 seen in the game is canon, etc. when the offcial-artwork shows-them differently, and Mario in the NES games obviously looks 8-bit due to console limitations, and Mario in Mario 64 looks polygonal also due to console limitations, etc. If you believe that the official external artwork has relevance over the in-game artwork, why don't you apply the same to ALL Mario games where you are arguing Mario canonically looks like in the game?

 

[Osemere]

This is really an exercise of “how painful and long-drawn do we want discussions on non-existent canon standards for this series to be” when it’s really as simple as going with the actual presentation of the contradictory material as opposed to the motivations of the supporters (complete merger all things being equal) or the opposition (complete split full stop) when both are assuming there has to be some hard-drawn canon line which doesn’t exist. The Paper Mario games being variably represented as scrapbooks/stageshows (and usually having elements of both at the same time) really makes me more inclined to believe given that this series doesn’t really make sense as some in-canon fanfiction, it’s fine to accept the art style as evidence of an in-universe adaptation of real events, with contradictions being the exception, and not the norm (as in, you would need evidence for this contradicting the “main real narrative“ such that it’s some fictional accretion in the in-universe adaptation.)

I’m guessing this is a proposal most people wouldn’t like though. The art style is canon and so is the real in-universe separation between “Mario” as represented in the video game we play, but the canon proper is the same in terms of “Mario” and his real-world counterpart actually doing the same things, meeting the same people, fighting the same characters, etc.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Btw i'm neutral about the CRT but I wanted to remind the Mario land 2 thing, something that directly brings up another point that could be a huge contradiction; the artstyle external to the games. You must decide what is canon: what we see directly in the game (a thing which is contradicted by Mario Land 2) or what we see in external artstyles of those same games that clearly exist to show a better look of the same characters that can't look like that in-game due to console limitations.

 

[Galactidot]

Using arguments such as "But these are technical limitations" or "the official artwork outside the game draws them differently from what you see in the game" is a double-edged sword argument for you two ngl.

The argument you are using for the CRT is that the artstyle seen in the games is the canon, not the art style seen in official media outside the game. That is why you are arguing that the 8-bit Mario seen in Mario Bros 1 and 3 is canon, that the polygonal Mario from Mario 64 seen in the game is canon, etc. when the offcial-artwork shows-them differently, and Mario in the NES games obviously looks 8-bit due to console limitations, and Mario in Mario 64 looks polygonal also due to console limitations, etc. If you believe that the official external artwork has relevance over the in-game artwork, why don't you apply the same to ALL Mario games where you are arguing Mario canonically looks like in the game?

My dude it's a "so retro" reference. It's so different...

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Only thing I have to say atm that I don't think using the Superstar Saga remake as an example holds much weight since while came out after Paper Jam, it's a faithful remake of the original. They didn't keep it in to say that Mario and Paper Mario are still the same deslite Paper Jam, they kept it in because it was in the original GBA version.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

The argument you are using for the CRT is that the artstyle seen in the games is the canon, not the art style seen in official media outside the game.That is why you are arguing that the 8-bit Mario seen in Mario Bros 1 and 3 is canon, that the polygonal Mario from Mario 64 seen in the game is canon, etc. when the offcial-artwork shows-them differently, and Mario in the NES games obviously looks 8-bit due to console limitations, and Mario in Mario 64 looks polygonal also due to console limitations, etc. If you believe that the official external artwork has relevance over the in-game artwork, why don't you apply the same to ALL Mario games where you are arguing Mario canonically looks like in the game?

Thank you for asking this question, because I come with the answers! This will cover something I have not brought up completely before, so I will not blame you for not asking that question. So...

Here's a revelation you may not know: Mario has already met a version of himself that had a different physiology! (This comes from the Official Japanese Guidebook of the Super Mario All Stars, called the "任天堂公式ガイドブック スーパーマリオコレクション". Shogakukan works very closely with Nintendo, even being the ones to wrote down the Super Mario Brothers Encyclopedia for Mario's anniversary, and created the Perfect-Ban: Mario Character Daijinten).

But that's not all, my friend. We have some in-lore evidence as well that there was a by-gone "8-Bit" era that existed. For reference, check the Donkey Kong Country Returns, where these ancient temples show it off! Or perhaps check Donkey Kong Bananza, where these fossils are collected and displayed in a in-universe museum!

This seemingly innocuous piece of evidence means that this is a phenomena that occurs throughout the Mario series- but it's something we do need to consider.

Oh, and as for the official art vs. the game itself? I don't see why he can't look like both.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"PJ Paper Mario" is Paper Mario. He isn't a separate original character created for the bespoke purpose of this game. He has been repeatedly referred to by developers as the character from the Paper Mario universe [1] [2] crossing over [1] [2] [3] [4] with the Mario & Luigi series. He has several abilities from TTYD, PM64 and Sticker Star. The notion of this being an OC is a purely fan-created concept. The devs have even outright stated that Paper Jam has no original characters due to its nature as a crossover.

Now that I am ready to talk about what I have mentioned offsite. It's actually been on my mind since the thread's creation but didn't want to propose it because it is "Too much" from my point of view. However, based on what you and many others have been arguing for the past couple of years, you have basically listed out details arguing a case based on this page. If you truly want to keep interpreting "Paper Mario and Meat Mario are different characters from different worlds/universes," then at least look at the other details for what all that literally entails. Because that would ultimately conclude that the Paper Mario cosmology is an entire fictional macrocosm contained within a single book within "Meat Mario's Universe." And as a result, it would meet the criteria to upgrade the cosmic structure and everyone one and everything in Mario lore all the way to 1-A. As for reading the criteria in length, it's not just a mere he looks at them and they all appear to be paper like the so called disqualifiers, but rather, that one book is a literal container of an entire Universe/Multiverse (Multiverse if you include the fact that the infinite parallel universes shown in Super Paper Mario are also paper).

Likewise, some would think the plot of Paper Jam being that "The entire Paper Mario cast grew and popped out of the book and it's cosmology also merged with Meat Mario's Cosmology sounds like a disqualifier." My response to that is maybe, I'm not an official 1-A expert and thus I wouldn't have the best judgement on that. But I still have read bits and pieces and know that other similar examples were accepted anyway. The context for that interpretation is the PM cast grew and expanded to be the size of RM cast and the cosmology expanded and merged with RM's macrocosm. Even if we assumed just regular universes, and not sure how any individual character was effected, but the book alone would perform a 2-C minimum just by opening. However, the other details mentioned still suggests turning a Low 2-C to 2-A sized structure into a 1-A sized structure to merge it with another 1-A sized structure. As for elaborations, those are exactly what you brought up here entail.

Also, here's something else I found, the EShop overview for Paper Jam says "When two unique universes collide", which kind of destroys the "it's multiple books" interpretation given that if that were the case, they wouldn't really be unique. Also, "The worlds of Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario have crossed over". That got me to look through more official descriptions and: "Face off against the Origami King and his army of paper invaders", "The papercraft game world", "Mario may be two-dimensional but this adventure is anything but thin!", "Fold Mario's uniquely flexible features", "Imagine, if you will, a world made of paper", "Our paper thin hero [Mario] has all kinds of foldy talents", "When everything is made completely out of paper, even the most ordinary-looking things can surprise you [...] Not only is Prism Island made of paper..."

The rule of the thumb was that lesser real characters being able to naturally travel to the qualitively superior realm is the disqualifier, but is not the case if there are powers and abilities making use of immersion to make them grow. PM cast cannot naturally escape the book, it's the RM or MM cast using or dropping the book is what enables them. More or less similar to how Superman and Batman cannot naturally enter the 6th Dimension, they need Mr Mxyzptlk to magically expand, grow, and teleport them there to enter. Luigi dropping the book to cause PM cast to exit or Bowser Jrs using the book to trap cast are more so just the same principle as Mxyzptlk using powers to send people to the 6th dimension.

Now on to what this all entails, it would imply everyone not from Paper Mario would be 1-A and other stats like LS and speed upgraded to Immeasurable by default. Only characters who wouldn't be effected be the Paper Mario cast, unless they had Paper Jam exclusive keys who would also have them in the regular universe. But wait, according to some implications, Paper Mario world has their own version of Mysterious Book. Not sure where that source comes form or if those were just easter eggs. But if true, that would in turn suggest even more PM worlds within the same PM worlds by that line of logic. If each Mysterious Book has another Mysterious Book within it, that would effectively make the scaling 1-A+. Since Infinity - 1 is still infinity, PM cast would be there too.

Now, I never wanted to propose all that as I knew full well it would be far more controversial. But based on our current wiki accepted interpretation of Paper Mario and Mario being separate, that's literally what would all entail. Now my question is, is this all what you truly want? Or perhaps the better question is that truly what you consider more reliable than our current ratings or accepted scaling? A merging of the profiles, or interpreting Paper Mario in Paper Jam as merely a slightly past self of Mario that came from a magical history book would be a way to prevent all that. I'm still in the mentality that Mario is just Mario whether he is paper, pixel, yarn, claymated, 3D, ect. And I'd rather not agree with any of the 1-A stuff, but so be it.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

A merging of the profiles, or interpreting Paper Mario in Paper Jam as merely a slightly past self of Mario that came from a magical history book would be a way to prevent all that. I'm still in the mentality that Mario is just Mario whether he is paper, pixel, yarn, claymated, 3D, ect. And I'd rather not agree with any of the 1-A stuff, but so be it.

I want to also add onto this by saying; my interpretation actually has SUPPORT for what I'm saying. I have shown actual explained for my interpretation can work, that Mario's physiology can change. My Galaxy resatation was not to just say "oh, the Universe resets, ergo, Paper Mario happened." I'm showing the premise that;

1. Mario and the surrounding world can change its physiology, with the Blocks of Nostalgia showing that the events of Paper Mario 64 had the paper asthetic.
2. There was an issue, becuase there was no serious explanation as to HOW this could have occurred on a cosmological scale.
3. The idea that the Universe can reset via Lumas serves to show that my interpretation was now perfectly plausible, which connects every thread of evidence we saw across the Mario series.

 

[Thunderman101]

1-a mario...

 

[Galactidot]

1-a mario...

Take your pick, merge or 1-A I guess

 

[Armorchompy]

The rule of the thumb was that lesser real characters being able to naturally travel to the qualitively superior realm is the disqualifier, but is not the case if there are powers and abilities making use of immersion to make them grow. PM cast cannot naturally escape the book, it's the RM or MM cast using or dropping the book is what enables them. More or less similar to how Superman and Batman cannot naturally enter the 6th Dimension, they need Mr Mxyzptlk to magically expand, grow, and teleport them there to enter. Luigi dropping the book to cause PM cast to exit or Bowser Jrs using the book to trap cast are more so just the same principle as Mxyzptlk using powers to send people to the 6th dimension.

Now on to what this all entails, it would imply everyone not from Paper Mario would be 1-A and other stats like LS and speed upgraded to Immeasurable by default. Only characters who wouldn't be effected be the Paper Mario cast, unless they had Paper Jam exclusive keys who would also have them in the regular universe. But wait, according to some implications, Paper Mario world has their own version of Mysterious Book. Not sure where that source comes form or if those were just easter eggs. But if true, that would in turn suggest even more PM worlds within the same PM worlds by that line of logic. If each Mysterious Book has another Mysterious Book within it, that would effectively make the scaling 1-A+. Since Infinity - 1 is still infinity, PM cast would be there too.

This is by no means a valid 1-A context. To follow up on your example, Mxy is using his unique abilities to intentionally bring Superman up to his level. A character accidentally dropping the book is not that - the book opens and the characters flow out. No mechanism can be used to interpret this as anything other than a contextual but inherent property of either the universe or the matter within that universe, which inherently breaks the possibility of 1-A. The Paper Mario book is not a less-real universe, it is an unconventionally behaving portal to an equally-real universe.

More importantly, reality equalization remains a thing, and the baseline reality is the Mario verse. What this would do is make the Paper Mario cast 11-A, which I think is stupid, but certainly not in line with what you're attempting to push.

Now, I never wanted to propose all that as I knew full well it would be far more controversial. But based on our current wiki accepted interpretation of Paper Mario and Mario being separate, that's literally what would all entail. Now my question is, is this all what you truly want? Or perhaps the better question is that truly what you consider more reliable than our current ratings or accepted scaling? A merging of the profiles, or interpreting Paper Mario in Paper Jam as merely a slightly past self of Mario that came from a magical history book would be a way to prevent all that. I'm still in the mentality that Mario is just Mario whether he is paper, pixel, yarn, claymated, 3D, ect. And I'd rather not agree with any of the 1-A stuff, but so be it.

You are fully aware that 1-A Mario is a ludicrous concept that could never possibly get accepted and thus the only mileage you can try to get out of it is to try and argue against my rejection. However it is not by any means real even under my suggested interpretation of the canon and I have no obligation to agree to it. Especially since...

"some would think" "maybe" "if" "More or less" "would imply" "according to some implications" "Not sure where that source comes form" "if" "if true" "would in turn suggest" "If"

You aren't exactly putting together an iron-solid argument, are you?

Make an argument that you believe in or don't make an argument at all. Don't "threaten" an upgrade you don't believe in.

 

[Thunderman101]

Take your pick, merge or 1-A I guess

merge is fine.

 

[Starsprite53]

Now that I am ready to talk about what I have mentioned offsite. It's actually been on my mind since the thread's creation but didn't want to propose it because it is "Too much" from my point of view. However, based on what you and many others have been arguing for the past couple of years, you have basically listed out details arguing a case based on this page. If you truly want to keep interpreting "Paper Mario and Meat Mario are different characters from different worlds/universes," then at least look at the other details for what all that literally entails. Because that would ultimately conclude that the Paper Mario cosmology is an entire fictional macrocosm contained within a single book within "Meat Mario's Universe." And as a result, it would meet the criteria to upgrade the cosmic structure and everyone one and everything in Mario lore all the way to 1-A. As for reading the criteria in length, it's not just a mere he looks at them and they all appear to be paper like the so called disqualifiers, but rather, that one book is a literal container of an entire Universe/Multiverse (Multiverse if you include the fact that the infinite parallel universes shown in Super Paper Mario are also paper).

Likewise, some would think the plot of Paper Jam being that "The entire Paper Mario cast grew and popped out of the book and it's cosmology also merged with Meat Mario's Cosmology sounds like a disqualifier." My response to that is maybe, I'm not an official 1-A expert and thus I wouldn't have the best judgement on that. But I still have read bits and pieces and know that other similar examples were accepted anyway. The context for that interpretation is the PM cast grew and expanded to be the size of RM cast and the cosmology expanded and merged with RM's macrocosm. Even if we assumed just regular universes, and not sure how any individual character was effected, but the book alone would perform a 2-C minimum just by opening. However, the other details mentioned still suggests turning a Low 2-C to 2-A sized structure into a 1-A sized structure to merge it with another 1-A sized structure. As for elaborations, those are exactly what you brought up here entail.

The rule of the thumb was that lesser real characters being able to naturally travel to the qualitively superior realm is the disqualifier, but is not the case if there are powers and abilities making use of immersion to make them grow. PM cast cannot naturally escape the book, it's the RM or MM cast using or dropping the book is what enables them. More or less similar to how Superman and Batman cannot naturally enter the 6th Dimension, they need Mr Mxyzptlk to magically expand, grow, and teleport them there to enter. Luigi dropping the book to cause PM cast to exit or Bowser Jrs using the book to trap cast are more so just the same principle as Mxyzptlk using powers to send people to the 6th dimension.

Now on to what this all entails, it would imply everyone not from Paper Mario would be 1-A and other stats like LS and speed upgraded to Immeasurable by default. Only characters who wouldn't be effected be the Paper Mario cast, unless they had Paper Jam exclusive keys who would also have them in the regular universe. But wait, according to some implications, Paper Mario world has their own version of Mysterious Book. Not sure where that source comes form or if those were just easter eggs. But if true, that would in turn suggest even more PM worlds within the same PM worlds by that line of logic. If each Mysterious Book has another Mysterious Book within it, that would effectively make the scaling 1-A+. Since Infinity - 1 is still infinity, PM cast would be there too.

Now, I never wanted to propose all that as I knew full well it would be far more controversial. But based on our current wiki accepted interpretation of Paper Mario and Mario being separate, that's literally what would all entail. Now my question is, is this all what you truly want? Or perhaps the better question is that truly what you consider more reliable than our current ratings or accepted scaling? A merging of the profiles, or interpreting Paper Mario in Paper Jam as merely a slightly past self of Mario that came from a magical history book would be a way to prevent all that. I'm still in the mentality that Mario is just Mario whether he is paper, pixel, yarn, claymated, 3D, ect. And I'd rather not agree with any of the 1-A stuff, but so be it.

This is not 1-A, but that’s irrelevant to the thread, my dear friend.

 

[Osemere]

People will unironically argue over the Paper Mario book-verse being 1-A (or, a negative R>F, whatever) before acknowledging that it’s an in-universe fictionalized depiction of actual events and hence it doesn’t even matter if paper elements are canon or not (even though they are)

This proposal actually best explains both the OP’s (and supporters’) evidence and the opposition’s citations of contradictions the best out of any btw. It’s just not accepted because of reasons.

 

[Galactidot]

This is by no means a valid 1-A context. To follow up on your example, Mxy is using his unique abilities to intentionally bring Superman up to his level. A character accidentally dropping the book is not that - the book opens and the characters flow out. No mechanism can be used to interpret this as anything other than a contextual but inherent property of either the universe or the matter within that universe, which inherently breaks the possibility of 1-A. The Paper Mario book is not a less-real universe, it is an unconventionally behaving portal to an equally-real universe.

Didn't the Bowsers threaten to destroy the Paperverse with the Bros inside by burning the book?

Just making sure

 

[Thunderman101]

Didn't the Bowsers threaten to destroy the Paperverse with the Bros inside by burning the book?

Just making sure

I feel like like what the guy said above. Paper mario is fictionalized of what happened instead of r>f

 

[Dust_Collector]

How the **** did even the slightest idea of 1-A come up for this outta nowhere

 

[Armorchompy]

Didn't the Bowsers threaten to destroy the Paperverse with the Bros inside by burning the book?

Just making sure

A universe can be contained within an object without a R>F gap. I suppose me calling it a "portal" is not quite what I was trying to express, though.

 

[IDK3465]

This is by no means a valid 1-A context. To follow up on your example, Mxy is using his unique abilities to intentionally bring Superman up to his level. A character accidentally dropping the book is not that - the book opens and the characters flow out. No mechanism can be used to interpret this as anything other than a contextual but inherent property of either the universe or the matter within that universe, which inherently breaks the possibility of 1-A. The Paper Mario book is not a less-real universe, it is an unconventionally behaving portal to an equally-real universe.

No, Dragon’s actually kinda right here, unintentional aid from a qualitatively superior entity is still aid from a qualitatively superior entity and isn’t a valid anti-feat, so Luigi knocking the book onto the floor technically wouldn’t disqualify the paper verse from being 11-C

That being said, given how both the main universe and the paper universe are both given a lot of focus narratively, we could just reality equalize it, same reason why we don’t list The Matrix or SAO as 1-A

 

[Armorchompy]

No, Dragon’s actually kinda right here, unintentional aid from a qualitatively superior entity is still aid from a qualitatively superior entity and isn’t a valid anti-feat

If that's the case then sure. It's not 1-A due to reality equalization and I presume it wouldn't qualify due to a vast variety of other factors, but fair enough.

 

[Galactidot]

A universe can be contained within an object without a R>F gap. I suppose me calling it a "portal" is not quite what I was trying to express, though.

Huh, why wouldn't this example qualify?