• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Paper Mario Mixing and Making (Another Mario Profile Revision)

Honestly, for as weird as it is conceptually, given the evidence presented and how Nintendo seems to treat things, I'm actually leaning towards agreeing with the thread. Again, it's weird, especially given Paper Jam and how the papery-ness is a major aspect of the Paper Mario games, but it's not like the mainline Mario games haven't also been kinda meta with their treatment of the art style. We need to remember that the Super Mario franchise as a whole is very cartoony, and, in the same vein we treat Looney Tunes, I suppose I'm fine with viewing the Mario verse under a similar lens.
 
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
Crafted world are also stylized games and how they’re a different universe than the main Mario world
Click to expand...
Crafted world has a different quote:
When we first chose the setting for the game, we decided to go with the theme of things crafted in kindergarten. The sort of kindergarten where the children are making figures of Yoshi and playing with them… That was the image we had.

Really, a kindergarten?

Yamamoto: Yes, with Baby Mario and Baby Peach there too. A kindergarten within the Mario world. So then we thought about the sort of sweets those children would be able to get their hands on and even went through designing some of those empty boxes. Always, though, with that development image in mind.
 
Lou_change said:
When we first chose the setting for the game, we decided to go with the theme of things crafted in kindergarten. The sort of kindergarten where the children are making figures of Yoshi and playing with them… That was the image we had.
Click to expand...
Then that would apply to Crafted World alone; although I didn't find that in the original split thread, so thanks for pointing that out to me. Although this would still be in the same world of Mario, just, y'know, not actual events that any of the characters experienced... besides I guess Baby Mario & Peach?
 
Alright, obviously I don't need to explain why it's a waste of time to list... one random Japanese guy even just as evidence of popular opinion, when just about anyone I've spoken to takes it for granted that Paper Mario and Mario are different people because look at them. Acting like Mario lore is somehow cohesive enough to make a straight-faced claim that all the timelines are connected by a great universal reset is also highly questionable... and it doesn't even matter because if that was true then Paper Mario would be a different incarnation of Mario and thus still a different guy.

The counters to the "evidence" presented fail to address most of what was actually brought up in the old thread. We're straight-up told repeatedly that the Paper Mario characters ARE made of paper and it's not just an abstraction, we're told Paper Jam is a crossover (because of course it would be, it's an absolutely insane conclusion to reach that the Paper Mario featured is somehow an OC despite looking exactly like the one in previous games). The biggest evidence against it, references to old "mainline" Mario games, can be very simply explained as Paper Mario sharing that part of their history or the developers really just not caring that much about the Mario canon. Let's be honest, is a Paper Mario game referencing 3D Land evidence as strong as the two Marios literally meeting and being visibly different people?

On that topic, since we're all so keen on trying to prove that Paper Mario shares a past with the real Mario, I would remind you that PJ Paper Mario goes out of his way to use abilities from the PM games, like Spring Jump, the Paper Airplane, he even shares a lot of specific visual animations. This is very much proof that it is the same character and not just some... guy. Plus, the book seen in Paper Jam is the exact same as the book in the intro of the Thousand Year Door.

(The actual explanation for all the older inconsistencies, mind you, is that the N64-Wii Paper Mario games were probably genuinely intended to be featuring the real Mario. It's only with Sticker Star and onwards that they really started treating them as though they were made of actual paper. It's a retcon, functionally - it used to mostly be an artstyle thing, now it's just very blatantly an important aspect of the setting)​

Regarding the paper artstyle... it's not a stylization, is the thing. Things that happen in these games constantly rely on the fact that the characters and the world are made of paper. From the fact that you fight hole punchers and scissors, to the fact that one of the recent main villains folds people into origami, you can't explain all of this as "it's a different artstyle". Characters fold themselves, get forcefully folded, float like paper, fit in crammed spaces thanks to their flat nature, they have to worry about getting wet sometimes, nothing here would be possible as 3d meat bodies. And if that isn't enough marketing very consistently refers to both the characters and the world as though they're made of paper. I think I've made this argument before in good depth, if you'd like scans (though sadly a few of them are gone).

To summarize:
  • The characters and world are repeatedly said in-world to be made of paper.
  • The characters and world are repeatedly said in advertising and interviews to be made of paper.
  • The Paper Mario world crosses over with the main Mario world, with a character who is unquestionably the real Paper Mario being a visibly separate entity from the bros.
  • The characters share all the physical qualities of paper: low weight and functionally zero thickness, the ability to fold themselves or be folded, et cetera.
  • The recent plotlines are clearly written around the fact that characters are indeed made of paper. In-verse elements are themed and reliant on the fact that it's a paper world.
They're paper, man. A sparse handful of references muddying the water isn't going to change that. Paper Mario used to be "cool mario rpgs with a fun artstyle" and back then it was probably just part of the same loose canon, now it's "paper people do paper things in a paper world against paper bad guys", I don't like it either but there's not much that can be done about that. Blame Sticker Star, it deserves the hate anyways.
 
Last edited:
Armorchompy said:
Alright, obviously I don't need to explain why it's a waste of time to list... one random Japanese guy even just as evidence of popular opinion, when just about anyone I've spoken to takes it for granted that Paper Mario and Mario are different people because look at them. Acting like Mario lore is somehow cohesive enough to make a straight-faced claim that all the timelines are connected by a great universal reset is also highly questionable... and it doesn't even matter because if that was true then Paper Mario would be a different incarnation of Mario and thus still a different guy.

The counters to the "evidence" presented fail to address most of what was actually brought up in the old thread. We're straight-up told repeatedly that the Paper Mario characters ARE made of paper and it's not just an abstraction, we're told Paper Jam is a crossover (because of course it would be, it's an absolutely insane conclusion to reach that the Paper Mario featured is somehow an OC despite looking exactly like the one in previous games). The biggest evidence against it, references to old "mainline" Mario games, can be very simply explained as Paper Mario sharing that part of their history or the developers really just not caring that much about the Mario canon. Let's be honest, is a Paper Mario game referencing 3D Land evidence as strong as the two Marios literally meeting and being visibly different people?

On that topic, since we're all so keen on trying to prove that Paper Mario shares a past with the real Mario, I would remind you that PJ Paper Mario goes out of his way to use abilities from the PM games, like Spring Jump, the Paper Airplane, he even shares a lot of specific visual animations. This is very much proof that it is the same character and not just some... guy. Plus, the book seen in Paper Jam is the exact same as the book in the intro of the Thousand Year Door.

(The actual explanation for all the older inconsistencies, mind you, is that the N64-Wii Paper Mario games were probably genuinely intended to be featuring the real Mario. It's only with Sticker Star and onwards that they really started treating them as though they were made of actual paper. It's a retcon, functionally - it used to mostly be an artstyle thing, now it's just very blatantly an important aspect of the setting)​

Regarding the paper artstyle... it's not a stylization, is the thing. Things that happen in these games constantly rely on the fact that the characters and the world are made of paper. From the fact that you fight hole punchers and scissors, to the fact that one of the recent main villains folds people into origami, you can't explain all of this as "it's a different artstyle". Characters fold themselves, get forcefully folded, float like paper, fit in crammed spaces thanks to their flat nature, they have to worry about getting wet sometimes, nothing here would be possible as 3d meat bodies. And if that isn't enough marketing very consistently refers to both the characters and the world as though they're made of paper. I think I've made this argument before in good depth, if you'd like scans (though sadly a few of them are gone).

To summarize:
  • The characters and world are repeatedly said in-world to be made of paper.
  • The characters and world are repeatedly said in advertising and interviews to be made of paper.
  • The Paper Mario world crosses over with the main Mario world, with a character who is unquestionably the real Paper Mario being a visibly separate entity from the bros.
  • The characters share all the physical qualities of paper: low weight and functionally zero thickness, the ability to fold themselves or be folded, et cetera.
  • The recent plotlines are clearly written around the fact that characters are indeed made of paper. In-verse elements are themed and reliant on the fact that it's a paper world.
They're paper, man. A sparse handful of references muddying the water isn't going to change that. Paper Mario used to be "cool mario rpgs with a fun artstyle" and back then it was probably just part of the same loose canon, now it's "paper people do paper things in a paper world against paper bad guys", I don't like it either but there's not much that can be done about that. Blame Sticker Star, it deserves the hate anyways.
Click to expand...
Super paper mario is 3d so it should be fine right now. Paper is not 3D
 
Super Paper Mario characters are flat, they're just able to turn around. Paper is 3D, it's just flat.
 
Armorchompy said:
Acting like Mario lore is somehow cohesive enough to make a straight-faced claim that all the timelines are connected by a great universal reset is also highly questionable... and it doesn't even matter because if that was true then Paper Mario would be a different incarnation of Mario and thus still a different guy.
Click to expand...
First off, no. Super Mario Galaxy made it clear that Mario can and will remember things between Universal resets, and have knowledge of what he did. So it's absolutely possible for them to be the same character. I've shown that the Paper Mario games (including the post-sticker star ones) will have no qualms with just outright mentioning Regular Mario games.
Armorchompy said:
We're straight-up told repeatedly that the Paper Mario characters ARE made of paper and it's not just an abstraction, we're told Paper Jam is a crossover (because of course it would be, it's an absolutely insane conclusion to reach that the Paper Mario featured is somehow an OC despite looking exactly like the one in previous games). The biggest evidence against it, references to old "mainline" Mario games, can be very simply explained as Paper Mario sharing that part of their history or the developers really just not caring that much about the Mario canon. Let's be honest, is a Paper Mario game referencing 3D Land evidence as strong as the two Marios literally meeting and being visibly different people?
Click to expand...
Did you READ my thread? I don't even MENTION Super Mario 3D Land! I mention actual other Mario Games, like Super Mario Bros. 2, the Original Super Mario Bros, Mario Bros 3, etc. I also go on you mention how post-Paper Jam games will STILL insist upon referring older titles, like how TTYD and ToK will reference other Super Mario titles- and then the Superstar Saga remake will just mention Mario's Story (Paper Mario 64's Japanese title) as a literal adventure Mario has went on.
Armorchompy said:
On that topic, since we're all so keen on trying to prove that Paper Mario shares a past with the real Mario, I would remind you that PJ Paper Mario goes out of his way to use abilities from the PM games, like Spring Jump, the Paper Airplane, he even shares a lot of specific visual animations. This is very much proof that it is the same character and not just some... guy. Plus, the book seen in Paper Jam is the exact same as the book in the intro of the Thousand Year Door.
Click to expand...
...Armour, I think your memory is failing you. This and this are not the same thing. But as for the abilities, sure. Paper Mario and Mario can share plenty of qualities- and this PJ Paper Mario can share qualities with Paper Mario games, I'm not saying it's impossible- I'm simply noting that we have evidence that Mario has experienced every Paper Mario title, and Paper Jam is Mario facing the Paper Physiology of himself while he still maintains his meat-bagginess.
Armorchompy said:
They're paper, man. A sparse handful of references muddying the water isn't going to change that. Paper Mario used to be "cool mario rpgs with a fun artstyle" and back then it was probably just part of the same loose canon, now it's "paper people do paper things in a paper world against paper bad guys", I don't like it either but there's not much that can be done about that. Blame Sticker Star, it deserves the hate anyways.
Click to expand...
Amour. I KNOW that it's paper. My evidence CLAIMS that it's Paper (let me be fair to you and say I was using "stylization" very liberally). Look to Superstar Saga DX, where this post-Paper Jam will outright claim that this block was made of a much different material to the other blocks. My argument was that there are multiple times that the Mario world can simply alter it's own Physiology, with the Universal reset being a strong possiblity as how it could happen. But we can see, as my OP presented, that the Mario world doesn't nessarily need that to change its physiology- there are other ways it can as well.
 
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
First off, no. Super Mario Galaxy made it clear that Mario can and will remember things between Universal resets, and have knowledge of what he did. So it's absolutely possible for them to be the same character. I've shown that the Paper Mario games (including the post-sticker star ones) will have no qualms with just outright mentioning Regular Mario games.
Click to expand...
This isn't really a consistent thing (nor one accepted on our profiles), but even if it were remembering one another's experiences doesn't mean they're the same character. They'd still have different P&A. But also this clearly isn't the case, given when they meet in Paper Jam and don't recognize one another.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
Did you READ my thread? I don't even MENTION Super Mario 3D Land!
Click to expand...
Here. It was just a random game I picked out, I could've mentioned any other one instead, don't get stuck on it.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
I mention actual other Mario Games, like Super Mario Bros. 2, the Original Super Mario Bros, Mario Bros 3, etc. I also go on you mention how post-Paper Jam games will STILL insist upon referring older titles, like how TTYD and ToK will reference other Super Mario titles- and then the Superstar Saga remake will just mention Mario's Story (Paper Mario 64's Japanese title) as a literal adventure Mario has went on.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of that. But the repeated mention of previous games really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, compared to the two series being much more clearly treated as different.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
...Armour, I think your memory is failing you. This and this are not the same thing.
Click to expand...
I didn't say it looked the same, I said it is the same. The Mario verse isn't a stranger to random design overhauls - that's a core part of your own argument, even. But the fact that it's a book at all is a pretty obvious connection. As is, I would repeat, the mass amount of Paper Mario references.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
Amour. I KNOW that it's paper. My evidence CLAIMS that it's Paper (let me be fair to you and say I was using "stylization" very liberally). Look to Superstar Saga DX, where this post-Paper Jam will outright claim that this block was made of a much different material to the other blocks. My argument was that there are multiple times that the Mario world can simply alter it's own Physiology, with the Universal reset being a strong possiblity as how it could happen. But we can see, as my OP presented, that the Mario world doesn't nessarily need that to change its physiology- there are other ways it can as well.
Click to expand...
The idea that the Mario verse is entirely shifting not only its appearance but makeup and physical properties is ludicrous, when your entire evidence is a reference to a different system the game is on and a few semi-canon at best jokes about retro artstyles, none of which alters in any way the actual physical behavior of the characters or setting. Trying to argue Paper Mario is the same when we're explicitly shown that the paper and meat universes are different ones that can cross-over is quite silly. And by the way, in a Crafted World interview the devs explicitly state that the "flocky" Yoshi isn't the real Yoshi.

You need to do a lot more work to disprove the most logical interpretation than "there's a bunch of random references and you could theoretically assume the entire universe shifts to paper at times".

Side note: Yoshi is a turtle???
 
Armorchompy said:
This isn't really a consistent thing (nor one accepted on our profiles), but even if it were remembering one another's experiences doesn't mean they're the same character. They'd still have different P&A. But also this clearly isn't the case, given when they meet in Paper Jam and don't recognize one another.
Click to expand...
...what? The games don't even make mention of PJ Paper Mario's past adventures that Mario didn't remember or recognize. Plus, the wiki treats SMG1 and SMG2 characters as the same as one another, even when they're pre and post cycles.
Armorchompy said:
Here. It was just a random game I picked out, I could've mentioned any other one instead, don't get stuck on it.
Click to expand...
Oop, I guess I accidentally copied and pasted a timestamp, lol.
Armorchompy said:
I'm aware of that. But the repeated mention of previous games really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, compared to the two series being much more clearly treated as different.
Click to expand...
I would say it means a world of a difference when Nintendo is perfectly fine mixing these two even after the release of Paper Jam.
Armorchompy said:
I didn't say it looked the same, I said it is the same. The Mario verse isn't a stranger to random design overhauls - that's a core part of your own argument, even. But the fact that it's a book at all is a pretty obvious connection. As is, I would repeat, the mass amount of Paper Mario references.
Click to expand...
They literally cannot be the same book, we can use our powers of observation to see that they look different and have different sizes, widths, front page designs, etc. Unless you're arguing that this book specifically can just randomly change for whatever reason you see fit? That's just a reach.
Armorchompy said:
The idea that the Mario verse is entirely shifting not only its appearance but makeup and physical properties is ludicrous, when your entire evidence is a reference to a different system the game is on and a few semi-canon at best jokes about retro artstyles, none of which alters in any way the actual physical behavior of the characters or setting. Trying to argue Paper Mario is the same when we're explicitly shown that the paper and meat universes are different ones that can cross-over is quite silly.
Click to expand...
My evidence is DIRECT lore mentions. Not only do I show you how they will canonically mention different looks (like the Polygonal and 8-Bit look are ACTUAL bits- as stated in-lore by the Hat Toad and Cappy). I quite literally explain to you in my response that The Blocks of Nostalgia present a Paper Mario block that is composed of a different material to the rest of the Mario blocks, and yet still insists that this was MARIO'S past adventure. And if you looked at the Donkey Kong Land scan I brought up in the OP, that just makes this much more consistent. Mario changing his own physiology and the things around him changing their own physiology is something that we can see across many Mario titles. Hand waving it as "silly" is not going to magically remove all of the evidence I have presented to you.
 
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
They literally cannot be the same book, we can use our powers of observation to see that they look different and have different sizes, widths, front page designs, etc. Unless you're arguing that this book specifically can just randomly change for whatever reason you see fit? That's just a reach.
Click to expand...
800px-Mario_Party_Star_Rush_King_Boo.png
1200px-King_Boo_Artwork_-_Luigi%27s_Mansion_Dark_Moon.png
800px-DKB_Thinking_DK.png
MPS_Donkey_Kong_Artwork.png

SuperMarioGamers3 said:
...what? The games don't even make mention of PJ Paper Mario's past adventures that Mario didn't remember or recognize.
Click to expand...
"PJ Paper Mario" is Paper Mario. He isn't a separate original character created for the bespoke purpose of this game. He has been repeatedly referred to by developers as the character from the Paper Mario universe [1] [2] crossing over [1] [2] [3] [4] with the Mario & Luigi series. He has several abilities from TTYD, PM64 and Sticker Star. The notion of this being an OC is a purely fan-created concept. The devs have even outright stated that Paper Jam has no original characters due to its nature as a crossover.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
Plus, the wiki treats SMG1 and SMG2 characters as the same as one another, even when they're pre and post cycles.
Click to expand...
Because it is exactly the same character with no functional differences and the world was remade exactly identical to how it was before its destruction - including Mario's past experiences and memories.
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
I would say it means a world of a difference when Nintendo is perfectly fine mixing these two even after the release of Paper Jam.
Click to expand...
Yes, it means that Nintendo doesn't give a shit about Mario "canon".
SuperMarioGamers3 said:
My evidence is DIRECT lore mentions. Not only do I show you how they will canonically mention different looks (like the Polygonal and 8-Bit look are ACTUAL bits- as stated in-lore by the Hat Toad and Cappy). I quite literally explain to you in my response that The Blocks of Nostalgia present a Paper Mario block that is composed of a different material to the rest of the Mario blocks, and yet still insists that this was MARIO'S past adventure. And if you looked at the Donkey Kong Land scan I brought up in the OP, that just makes this much more consistent. Mario changing his own physiology and the things around him changing their own physiology is something that we can see across many Mario titles. Hand waving it as "silly" is not going to magically remove all of the evidence I have presented to you.
Click to expand...
Mario doesn't have "lore". Mario, outside of the M&L RPGs referencing previous games in the series, has an extremely loose continuity mainly built on the back of references and self-contradicting developer statements. There is no such thing as the consistency you are pretending exists. Deluding yourself into thinking that a handful of unrelated instances of meta gags are a bespoke verse mechanic is ludicrous and in no way can stand as evidence in the face of the very blatant FACT that the PM and mainline universes are separate - it's plain to see and absolutely unquestionable, the fact that it's consistently supported by developer interviews and promotional material is honestly just the cherry on top.
 
Really? Was the the best you had? A design change from King Boo when he has the Dark Moon attached to him, and a slight DK redesign, as opposed to a Book with no semblance of a similarity to each other in any aspect of design, besides the fact these books have some relation to Paper Mario?
Armorchompy said:
Because it is exactly the same character with no functional differences and the world was remade exactly identical to how it was before its destruction - including Mario's past experiences and memories.
Click to expand...
Oh, so almost exactly what I was saying, gotcha.
Armorchompy said:
Yes, it means that Nintendo doesn't give a shit about Mario "canon".
Click to expand...
Armorchompy said:
Mario doesn't have "lore". Mario, outside of the M&L RPGs referencing previous games in the series, has an extremely loose continuity mainly built on the back of references and self-contradicting developer statements.
Click to expand...
...are you sure you played the Mario games? Like, are you 100% certain that you did? Becuase anyone who played Mario Sunshine is going to have to disagree with you, anyone who played Super Mario World is going to disagree with you, and... like, SHOULD I go through every single time Mario is shown to have continuity? There's so many darn times it happens...
Armorchompy said:
There is no such thing as the consistency you are pretending exists. Pretending that a handful of unrelated instances of meta gags are a bespoke verse mechanic is ludicrous and in no way can stand as evidence in the face of the very blatant FACT that the PM and mainline universes are separate.
Click to expand...
Ah, "gags". Is that how you choose to handwave that? Well, I fail to see an actual argument you presented that in no way contradicts the evidence I presented! I already explained how Post-Paper Jam games will mix and match between each other, to the extent that, yet again, you missed the part where the Blocks of Nostalgia quit LITERALLY present actual continuity evidence!
 
Armorchompy said:
This isn't really a consistent thing (nor one accepted on our profiles), but even if it were remembering one another's experiences doesn't mean they're the same character. They'd still have different P&A. But also this clearly isn't the case, given when they meet in Paper Jam and don't recognize one another.

Here. It was just a random game I picked out, I could've mentioned any other one instead, don't get stuck on it.

I'm aware of that. But the repeated mention of previous games really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, compared to the two series being much more clearly treated as different.

I didn't say it looked the same, I said it is the same. The Mario verse isn't a stranger to random design overhauls - that's a core part of your own argument, even. But the fact that it's a book at all is a pretty obvious connection. As is, I would repeat, the mass amount of Paper Mario references.

The idea that the Mario verse is entirely shifting not only its appearance but makeup and physical properties is ludicrous, when your entire evidence is a reference to a different system the game is on and a few semi-canon at best jokes about retro artstyles, none of which alters in any way the actual physical behavior of the characters or setting. Trying to argue Paper Mario is the same when we're explicitly shown that the paper and meat universes are different ones that can cross-over is quite silly. And by the way, in a Crafted World interview the devs explicitly state that the "flocky" Yoshi isn't the real Yoshi.

You need to do a lot more work to disprove the most logical interpretation than "there's a bunch of random references and you could theoretically assume the entire universe shifts to paper at times".

Side note: Yoshi is a turtle???
Click to expand...
Armorchompy said:
800px-Mario_Party_Star_Rush_King_Boo.png
1200px-King_Boo_Artwork_-_Luigi%27s_Mansion_Dark_Moon.png
800px-DKB_Thinking_DK.png
MPS_Donkey_Kong_Artwork.png


"PJ Paper Mario" is Paper Mario. He isn't a separate original character created for the bespoke purpose of this game. He has been repeatedly referred to by developers as the character from the Paper Mario universe [1] [2] crossing over [1] [2] [3] [4] with the Mario & Luigi series. He has several abilities from TTYD, PM64 and Sticker Star. The notion of this being an OC is a purely fan-created concept. The devs have even outright stated that Paper Jam has no original characters due to its nature as a crossover.

Because it is exactly the same character with no functional differences and the world was remade exactly identical to how it was before its destruction - including Mario's past experiences and memories.

Yes, it means that Nintendo doesn't give a shit about Mario "canon".

Mario doesn't have "lore". Mario, outside of the M&L RPGs referencing previous games in the series, has an extremely loose continuity mainly built on the back of references and self-contradicting developer statements. There is no such thing as the consistency you are pretending exists. Deluding yourself into thinking that a handful of unrelated instances of meta gags are a bespoke verse mechanic is ludicrous and in no way can stand as evidence in the face of the very blatant FACT that the PM and mainline universes are separate - it's plain to see and absolutely unquestionable, the fact that it's consistently supported by developer interviews and promotional material is honestly just the cherry on top.
Click to expand...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you once make the argument against splitting the profiles? Not trying to be offensive. Just curious... what changed your view? Was it issues with the canon?
 
The constant Universal resets thing was something I did have doubts about being actual evidence of Mario and Paper Mario. But the first three Paper Mario games have always still referenced past non-Paper Mario titles are still canon; which made consistent in the remaster as well as teasing future titles. And Super Mario Run also is consistent that TTYD cast are actual Mario characters and not specifically Paper Mario.

The new argument isn't that the PM from PJ is a 100% original character, it's just that both Regular Mario and Paper Mario are both regular Mario and Paper Mario at the same time but different periods. It's basically like Partners in Time where Mario and Baby Mario are the same character just came from vastly different time periods; and have effectively experienced the same events twice. Though in case of regular Mario and Paper Mario, the periods are slightly different. "Everyone being made of paper" wasn't something argued against with the statement "Aesthetic or art style choice," it's more so "Aesthetic/Art Style combined with Toon Force and 4th Window Awareness." It's common knowledge that Mario is a whacky series where almost everyone seems aware they're video game characters with their "You outside the TV" statements. It's similar to the Jimmy Timmy Power Hour series where the characters comment on either being "Flat" or "Bulgy."

And we are aware that the way they sometimes say things contradict themselves, but Miyamoto is often quite blunt as saying that all Mario's are the same. The 2017 interview is literally a response to Mario and Paper Mario where Miyamoto said they were the same. Same interview where someone said "Real Yoshi" still said Crafted World was the same world as the traditional Yoshi's Island series. Also, Mario's lore has always been whacky; it's a universe/multiverse where inanimate objects are sentient. And Bowser's Inside Story revealed that even atoms and molecules in Mario lore are sentient; so they can explain how shapeshifting in all that jazz is canon.

While the universal resets thing I didn't consider relevant, it's also stated in Galaxy series all substance in Mario universe/multiverse is made of star dust + Power of the Stars and are capable of reshaping on a whim. So even if we don't assume a full Universe reset or big bang happens, it's still natural for everything to shapeshift. So pretty much every Mario universe character is canonically able to shapeshift at adaptation, whether it be flattening to paper, liquidizing into paint, being burned to ashes, being digitized entirely into pixels, ect. Speaking of Galaxy, we can permanently debunk the myth that "Lumas officially die when they turn into stars/galaxies" considering Mari in canon flip flops between becoming a star and back to a Luma. Even before the remasters, we have evidence the hungry lumas can turn back into pink lumas upon creating/transforming into the galaxies. They turn back into the launch stars after talking with them (Or a launch star + a galaxy). However you look at it, all Luma have High 3-A durability minimum given the super consistent infinite size statements. And better yet, space-time was also effected granting it a Low 2-C. But that's for another thread.

As for the chronology, the OG Paper Mario was canonically a sequel to Super Mario RPG, which also has the same references to what the OP is saying. Culex in canon is literally 2D character who later becomes much stronger transforming into 3D. That's consistent with Paper forming, yarn forming, paint forming, pixel forming, ect. Superstar Saga also takes place after the OG Paper Mario given the block statement. TTYD's advertisement specifically states Mario "Returns" to Paper form. Yes, Armor did bring up how all the advertisements market Paper Mario cast as characters being made of Paper is quite literal. But the key word return literally implies they weren't paper, they became paper, they weren't paper anymore, and they're paper again, ect. Those are in OP's favor. Partner's in Time also references how Paper Mario titles were before Adult Mario bros' times but after Baby Bros'. Paper Jam is after Dream Team and Sticker Star but before Brothership and Color Splash regarding both versions of Mario. Sticker Star and prior isn't just a past for Paper Mario in that game, it's also a past for regular Mario. Dream Team and prior isn't just a past for regular Mario, but also a past for Paper Mario. In canon, the plot of Paper Jam is experienced twice but in different directions. In one period, Mario & Luigi meet up with Paper Mario when the Parallel World book is opened, thus merging the the world with theirs, but in another period not long after or before, the same Mario becomes the Paper Mario of another Mario's world, and that Paper Mario has yet another Paper Mario appearing in their world witnessing the same plot.

I'm going to save yet another proposal till After I get back from work. But I do have a devil's advocate; those opposing the thread are going to quite literally hate on this new proposal or "devil's advocate" infinite more than what the OP is proposing. But yes, it basically involves that "Same Mario" is technically that there are an infinite number of Marios who coincidently has the exact same past and future. And even the book in Paper Jam, is something that exists within Paper Mario's world, meaning there are an infinite number of Paper Mario Worlds within the Regular/Paper Mario worlds and infinite layers. But this is a rushed post, where I was merely summarizing what was discussed previously prior to thread's creation and showing support. What I am going to expand when I come back will be much more controversial.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The new argument isn't that the PM from PJ is a 100% original character, it's just that both Regular Mario and Paper Mario are both regular Mario and Paper Mario at the same time but different periods. It's basically like Partners in Time where Mario and Baby Mario are the same character just came from vastly different time periods; and have effectively experienced the same events twice. Though in case of regular Mario and Paper Mario, the periods are slightly different.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to even bother arguing against most of this both because I already have and because I see no reason I should bother given you've apparently just going to propose something massive two pages in (which is awful debating ethic for a variety of reasons) but this is a blatant false equivalence. In Partners in Time it's made very explicit the baby bros are the Mario bros from the past. In Paper Jam it's made equally as explicit that Paper Mario is a different version from a different universe.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And we are aware that the way they sometimes say things contradict themselves, but Miyamoto is often quite blunt as saying that all Mario's are the same. The 2017 interview is literally a response to Mario and Paper Mario where Miyamoto said they were the same.
Click to expand...
You mean the "50 questions in 2 minutes" interview where he literally just answers with "yes" without elaboration and then they move on to something unrelated? Fantastic evidence.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, Mario's lore has always been whacky; it's a universe/multiverse where inanimate objects are sentient. And Bowser's Inside Story revealed that even atoms and molecules in Mario lore are sentient; so they can explain how shapeshifting in all that jazz is canon.
Click to expand...
No they can't, this is never stated or implied to give them such abilities, the tone of the series being comedic doesn't allow you to just make up random powers they don't really have and there's a trillion situations in the games' various stories that could be trivially solved were the characters capable of such powerful shapeshifting. We're supposed to have standards on this website - just stating something might be possible as though that made it evidence is not acceptable.
 
Armorchompy said:
In Partners in Time it's made very explicit the baby bros are the Mario bros from the past. In Paper Jam it's made equally as explicit that Paper Mario is a different version from a different universe.
Click to expand...
It was directly staged by Kamek to be a parallel world within the pages of the Book, entailing that these worlds are very similar, or perhaps outright the same (except one is a Paper Version of the other). I did already cover how Mario experienced the events of the Paper Mario games via the Blocks of Nostalgia, which produces additional support to my interpretation.
Armorchompy said:
You mean the "50 questions in 2 minutes" interview where he literally just answers with "yes" without elaboration and then they move on to something unrelated? Fantastic evidence.
Click to expand...
Becuase it's a simple question with a simple answer.

Question: "There are multiple Links, but is it always the same Mario?"
Answer: "Yes."
Armorchompy said:
No they can't, this is never stated or implied to give them such abilities, the tone of the series being comedic doesn't allow you to just make up random powers they don't really have and there's a trillion situations in the games' various stories that could be trivially solved were the characters capable of such powerful shapeshifting. We're supposed to have standards on this website.
Click to expand...
Considering how we SEE within the Mario world that physiology changes are possible, via Donkey Kong Land, Super Mario Odyssey (8-Bit and 64, both stated in-world), Super Paper Mario (the 8-bit Mario's), etc. On top of this, we understand that the Blocks of Nostalgia having a differently materialed Paper Mario Block, on top of the Galaxy 1 + 2 storybook explanation, all give credence to the fact that the Mario World can indeed change itself- all Galaxy 1 + 2 does is give us is a clean and simple explanation as to how such broad changes can occur.
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm not going to even bother arguing against most of this both because I already have and because I see no reason I should bother given you've apparently just going to propose something massive two pages in (which is awful debating ethic for a variety of reasons) but this is a blatant false equivalence. In Partners in Time it's made very explicit the baby bros are the Mario bros from the past. In Paper Jam it's made equally as explicit that Paper Mario is a different version from a different universe.
Click to expand...
They use the word "parallel" though, and the Koopalings even lampshade this, questioning the existence of parallel versions of them as well. The Peaches talk about how they've experienced the same things down to a tee, and while the game does things to imply that there's two different worlds, it does nothing to imply that anything is remotely different between the two other than haha funny paper joke
Armorchompy said:
You mean the "50 questions in 2 minutes" interview where he literally just answers with "yes" without elaboration and then they move on to something unrelated? Fantastic evidence.
Click to expand...
This is fair tbh, that was a very goofy interview that I don't take too seriously myself. But there are other sources with similar sentiments iirc. Maybe I'll look for them, maybe I won't.
Armorchompy said:
No they can't, this is never stated or implied to give them such abilities, the tone of the series being comedic doesn't allow you to just make up random powers they don't really have and there's a trillion situations in the games' various stories that could be trivially solved were the characters capable of such powerful shapeshifting. We're supposed to have standards on this website - just stating something might be possible as though that made it evidence is not acceptable.
Click to expand...
Atoms and molecules are alive, but I am honestly unsure about the shapeshifting thing. I think it's rather more Looney Tunes if anything, or like in that one episode of Captain Underpants where the artstyle keeps changing. Goated reference.

But there are a couple of instances that could be interpreted as this, like SMRPG AND ESPECIALLY ODYSSEY. Remember that the Toad says that's how Mario "used to look" in 64!

Also, please comment on this, I think this is still one of the most damming pieces of evidence for this discussion

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Poketmonsrs
  • Locked
Small Dimentio abilities additions (Part 2; Electric Boogaloo) + misc Mario Cast additions
2
Replies
50
Views
2K
Poketmonsrs
Poketmonsrs
MicDaniel
Mario accelerated development addition
2
Replies
60
Views
4K
MicDaniel
MicDaniel
SuperMarioGamers3
  • Locked
Super Mario Bros: The Ultimate 3-A (and above!) CRT
3 4 5
Replies
165
Views
12K
Armorchompy
Armorchompy
ZespeonGalaxy
Mario and the possibly soul erasure, maybe Existence Erasure.
Replies
14
Views
1K
Lou_change
Lou_change
Galactidot
Power of Bonds ≥ Power of Love CRT (Mario Series)
Replies
18
Views
2K
Lou_change
Lou_change
Back
Top