Paper Mario Mixing and Making (Another Mario Profile Revision)

[SuperMarioGamers3]

“Another CRT?! Ultra, are you mental?!”​

…Maybe. ANYWAYS...

This is a long time coming, and something I’ve been reading and musing on. I’ll be arguing that Mario & Paper Mario should have their profiles re-merged, as they are most certainly the exact same character. There may be some reiteration of various arguments that were made, but I do think they bear repeating. I'll also be presenting a brand new argument that should present a consistency between this Paper World and the Mario world. I would recommend having this in the background while reading.

There are a slew of counter arguments that were made to the idea of Mario & Paper Mario being different characters. One of such being that the Star Spirits role in Mario Party 5 contradicts their role in the original Paper Mario 64.

It is absolutely within possibility that they just have more than one singular job, that being the determiner of wishes, and watching over the Dream Depot. It even makes sense for them to have some dominion over both, as many people will generally wish for things they dream of. There is absolutely zero contradiction between the two.

“The Origami King has a room in it with pictures of Peach from all previous Paper Mario games, and no mainline Mario game. If she was the same character as non-paper Peach, then it wouldn't really really make sense for the decorators to just have coincidentally only hung up pictures of her in games where she just so happened to be in a paper artstyle.”

This argument is flawed. Not only does Bowser have pictures of himself in a 3D design (not to mention that the enemies just as well have said models), but on top of that, Color Splash goes out of its way to reference Super Mario Brothers 3 (even going as far as to talk about it like a past event) & Super Mario Brothers 2 USA. And just as well, Origami King also has references to the original Super Mario Brothers as well. The Paper Mario Games have made many, many, MANY references to standard Mario games.

I could go on a massive spiel on the very many times these games have made reference to one another… but that won’t do much to the biggest argument that exists against this idea; Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Darn you, my favorite Mario & Luigi game.

There was a whole heap of evidence presented in this thread which suggested that Paper Jam was a crossover between the World of Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi. But there are a few core flaws with this argumentation, as, notably, this sentiment gets outright contradicted by another entry in the Mario & Luigi games, where Paper Mario is called a previous adventure. Note that they come in tandem with other, agreed-upon canon Mario Games: Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, and Super Mario 64. The remake of Superstar Saga (which I showed), came directly after Paper Jam’s release, a very odd statement if the true intention by the authors was to create a distinction between the Paper Mario World, and the “Real” World. On top of this, another post-Paper Jam game, the remake of TTYD, makes references to the games as well.

But this argument also lacks core credence when, even Paper Jam supports Paper Mario & Mario being the same. The Mario Amiibo (which was confirmed canon in Odyssey & Bananza) - just outright chooses to mix Mario & Paper Mario together. Miyamoto's infamous “it’s all the same Mario” shtick happened after Paper Jam’s release, when he was the supervisor for that game, no less. Even Nintendo has a track record of just mixing the two characters together without much care to make a true difference between the two. It’s even odder that Paper Mario Color Splash would make a meta-reference to the ORIGINAL Mario’s 30th anniversary when Paper Mario released much later than that. It’s very much obvious that they use Mario & Paper Mario very interchangeably.

“Ultra, you blockhead! What about the fact that these are PAPER worlds?!”

Well, there’s a perfectly good explanation for that as well- and this will have that juicy new evidence! While many talk about the Woolly World & Crafted world are also stylized games and how they’re a different universe than the main Mario world… this is due to some misinterpretations. Let’s read that Yoshi quote again:

Gameinformer: Is Yoshi's yarn universe a parallel world to the Mushroom Kingdom, or did something happen to the Mushroom Kingdom to make it look like that?

Tezuka: Yoshi's universe, both in the Yoshi series as well as the yarn Yoshi world in Yoshi's Woolly World, is separate from the Mushroom Kingdom. There’s not really a link between.

They don’t say “Woolly and Crafted World are a different Universe”- they say the ENTIRE YOSHI SERIES, as well as Woolly and Crafted world, are separate from the Mushroom Kingdom. So… I guess we need to say that Yoshi’s Story, Yoshi’s Island DS, Yoshi Topsy-Turvy, Yoshi Touch & Go and Yoshi’s New Island are now up for grabs as not being within the main Mario continuity. So unless you want to argue THAT, I’d say this quote means something different than what you think it does.

But even then, looking at the Paper Jam book, Kamek claims that the book hosts a “parallel world within its pages”, which may also suggest that the Book & the Real World have experienced the same events, with the Paper Mario games just being seen from that perspective. It would be able to explain why “Paper Mario” was seen as a past adventure in the Superstar Saga remake.

But here’s the kicker; many elements of the Mario World can change and morph to support various stylizations, including 8-Bit Mario and the 64-Style polygonal look, as well as the SNES look in Mario Kart Tour.

Notably, there is also an instance where the World can simply change on it's own- Donkey Kong Land, where DK & Cranky go against each other to see if DKC wasn't just graphics-slop.

NEW EXPLANATION:

This is where my evidence comes into play. In Super Mario Galaxy, Rosalina goes on the mention cycles, something that was vague enough to remain up for speculation for a long time now. But, we now have additional elaboration from the Super Mario Galaxy 1 + 2 storybook. In it, Mari loses her sense of time and space- this gives her many memories, such as one where she is drowning in honey, but also one where she is trapped in a cage. Well… where have we seen a Lumalee trapped in a cage? Only once- the Super Mario Brothers Movie. What’s even MORE interesting, is that she takes on the nihilistic mindset that she did in the movie. Further on, we can see that Mari is about to experience yet another cycle- which is confirmed to be a “big bang”, a UNIVERSAL reset.

"つぎに、マリがめざめたのはひかりのないまっくらなせかいでした。おそらく、ほしがうまれるまえこれからビッグバンが、はじまるのでしょう。ここにいのちは、まだありません。"

Translation: Next, Mari awoke in a pitch-black world without light. Perhaps it was before the stars were born, and the Big Bang was about to begin. Life was not yet here.

And while there might be some skepticism, even the JAPANESE audience is picking up what I’m putting down:



Commenter: “追加ストーリーって後日談的なのかな？と甘く思っていたら、マリオ史やマリオガチ勢やマリオムービーをも揺らがす程の、良い意味での爆弾で圧巻すぎたわ…”

Translation: I was naively thinking that the additional story would be a sequel, but it was a bombshell in a good way, shaking up Mario history, hardcore Mario fans, and even the Mario movies…

This gives some real credence to the TTYD box art claiming that Mario "returns to paper form” as well.

Anyhow, I think this evidence is enough to at LEAST get a discussion off the ground! Let's all be chill and respectful... please.

STAFF:
AGREE: @DarkDragonMedeus
NEUTRAL:
DISAGREE: @Armorchompy, @Maverick_Zero_X

USERS:
AGREE: @LuckyEmile, @Plants_vs_zombies_fan101, @ZespeonGalaxy, @Galactidot, @Omnificence, @OrangeFR.
NEUTRAL: @Osemere
DISAGREE: @Cropfist, @Thunderman101 , @Chariot190, @Dust_Collector, @IDK3465

 

[Osemere]

I think the issue is that at one point (whether you want to say this cuts off at the original trilogy) they were the same character before subsequently being soft-retconned due to the differentiation in development teams. At minimum I think you can make a strong argument that the paper-verse in just quite literally being a scrapbook in some iterations is representing things that actually happened, given that it doesn’t really make sense otherwise unless it’s some canon in-universe fanfiction; the fact that these ‘scrapbook memories’ could come to life and have gaggy physics related to their material composition doesn’t discount the fact that presumably everything in them generally happened outside of things involving emphasis on the qualities of the metanarrative (like focusing on paper physiology) in general, and the paper copies and their real-life counterparts basically have a 1:1 correspondence anyway in Paper Jam.

I’m fine with giving Mario basically everything Paper has besides the stuff he has in Paper Jam separately from M&L and paper physiology (although he could probably easily gain it through immersion / entering into that world, like he does in becoming retro 2D). I also don’t think the cycles have anything to do with it.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I’m fine with giving Mario basically everything Paper has besides the stuff he has in Paper Jam separately from M&L and paper physiology

I think the Paper Mario in Paper Jam is a similar situation to the multiple Mario's in the Manga- so yeah, I'd agree.

 

[Osemere]

I think the Paper Mario in Paper Jam is a similar situation to the multiple Mario's in the Manga- so yeah, I'd agree.

There’s a stronger argument to be made there and personally I have no problem with the Manga being somewhat canon, it fits the idea of the cast being ‘actors’ a lot better than what we do now, plus actually having some references in the games and huge mainline recognition by Nintendo Japan. It’s just that such a thing requires a much larger thread, and unfortunately it’s in majority untranslated.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Manga being somewhat canon

What's interesting, is that that commenter I mentioned? Other commenters even suggested that they thought this revelation showed the Manga could be canon as well- so this isn't the most out there opinion at all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seeing this offsite, I am in agreement with the OP.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

honestly i agree with the op

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

hopefully this doesn't turn into an 5-7 page long thread.

 

[Osemere]

What's interesting, is that that commenter I mentioned? Other commenters even suggested that they thought this revelation showed the Manga could be canon as well- so this isn't the most out there opinion at all.

No. But some time back I did find this interesting Japanese blogpost with the (recently passed-on) Mangaka discussing some Nintendo editorial practices while responding to the release of the Mario movie (and the idea of serialization of story being per each game release). I think the manga(s) could probably be used for secondary material to flesh out some stuff, especially given the huge-arcs devoted to things like the Paper games. But this is a topic to be discussed later.

【ブログ】往年の「スーパーマリオ」メディアミックス回顧録：マリオコミック作家、本山一城氏自らが語るコミックボンボン版マンガシリーズ制作秘話 - 中村彰憲のゲーム産業研究ノート グローバル編

「スーパーマリオ」ユニバースのメディアミックス展開について、本山氏にインタビューすることができた。氏の視点による当時のコミカライズ作品制作秘話をお届けする。

www.famitsu.com

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

No.

As a quick aside, yes, a commenter DID suggest this;

"マリオの様々なゲーム・アニメ・漫画・映画の世界が今回の絵本のものがたりによって繋がったことに感動した。マルチバースというより、何度も何度も繰り返してマリオの世界は生まれ変わって様々な世界が生まれたと考えると腑に落ちる。長い長い40年のマリオシリーズの歴史をひとつにしてまとめるのはできない。様々な人々が開発に携わり、様々な人々が遊び・見て・触れてきた。マリオとクッパが戦う本流とされるアクションだけでなく、マリオやクッパがなぜか仲良くレースやスポーツをしている世界、ボブ・ホスキンス演じるマリオ・マリオの魔界帝国の女神の世界、沢田ユキオ先生のスーパーマリオくんの世界…他にもマリオはいろんな世界を見せてくれたけど、それは繋がってはいないけど繋がっているのだ。僕達の思い出と心によって、マリオの物語は紡がれていくし、十人十色。手塚治虫先生が編み出したスターシステムとか、MARVEL・DCなどのアメコミ作品のマルチバースシステム、それらに影響されたであろう漫画アニメゲームはたくさん見てきたけど、まさかマリオでそんな世界を見られるとは思っていなかった。ギャラクシーが出た当時は楽しかったけど、正直マリオにしてはストーリーに力が入りすぎててどうなんだろう？と感じていた。今の時代になって追加要素を加えてリマスター（リメイクな部分もある）されたギャラクシーを見て、自分が長年抱えていたマリオへの疑問が払拭できた。"
Translation: I was moved by how this picture book’s story connected the many worlds of Mario, from the games, anime, manga, and movies. Rather than thinking of it as a multiverse, it makes more sense to me to imagine that Mario’s world has been reborn over and over again, each time giving rise to a different world. You can’t simply unify and neatly summarize the long, forty-year history of the Mario series. So many different people have been involved in developing it, and so many different people have played it, watched it, and experienced it. It’s not just the mainline action games where Mario and Bowser fight each other. There are also worlds where, for some reason, Mario and Bowser get along and race or play sports together; the world of Mario Mario in Super Mario Bros. (the film starring Bob Hoskins); the world of Yukio Sawada’s Super Mario-kun… Mario has shown us many different worlds. They may not be connected, yet in a way, they are. Through our memories and our hearts, Mario’s story continues to be woven, and it’s different for each and every one of us. I’ve seen many works, Osamu Tezuka’s “Star System,” the multiverse systems of American comics like Marvel and DC, and the manga, anime, and games influenced by them—but I never expected to see that kind of world explored in Mario. When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I enjoyed it, but honestly, I wondered whether it leaned too heavily into story for a Mario game. Now, seeing Galaxy remastered in the modern era (with added elements, and in some ways even remade), I feel like the long-held questions I had about Mario have finally been put to rest.

 

[Osemere]

As a quick aside, yes, a commenter DID suggest this;

"マリオの様々なゲーム・アニメ・漫画・映画の世界が今回の絵本のものがたりによって繋がったことに感動した。マルチバースというより、何度も何度も繰り返してマリオの世界は生まれ変わって様々な世界が生まれたと考えると腑に落ちる。長い長い40年のマリオシリーズの歴史をひとつにしてまとめるのはできない。様々な人々が開発に携わり、様々な人々が遊び・見て・触れてきた。マリオとクッパが戦う本流とされるアクションだけでなく、マリオやクッパがなぜか仲良くレースやスポーツをしている世界、ボブ・ホスキンス演じるマリオ・マリオの魔界帝国の女神の世界、沢田ユキオ先生のスーパーマリオくんの世界…他にもマリオはいろんな世界を見せてくれたけど、それは繋がってはいないけど繋がっているのだ。僕達の思い出と心によって、マリオの物語は紡がれていくし、十人十色。手塚治虫先生が編み出したスターシステムとか、MARVEL・DCなどのアメコミ作品のマルチバースシステム、それらに影響されたであろう漫画アニメゲームはたくさん見てきたけど、まさかマリオでそんな世界を見られるとは思っていなかった。ギャラクシーが出た当時は楽しかったけど、正直マリオにしてはストーリーに力が入りすぎててどうなんだろう？と感じていた。今の時代になって追加要素を加えてリマスター（リメイクな部分もある）されたギャラクシーを見て、自分が長年抱えていたマリオへの疑問が払拭できた。"
Translation: I was moved by how this picture book’s story connected the many worlds of Mario, from the games, anime, manga, and movies. Rather than thinking of it as a multiverse, it makes more sense to me to imagine that Mario’s world has been reborn over and over again, each time giving rise to a different world. You can’t simply unify and neatly summarize the long, forty-year history of the Mario series. So many different people have been involved in developing it, and so many different people have played it, watched it, and experienced it. It’s not just the mainline action games where Mario and Bowser fight each other. There are also worlds where, for some reason, Mario and Bowser get along and race or play sports together; the world of Mario Mario in Super Mario Bros. (the film starring Bob Hoskins); the world of Yukio Sawada’s Super Mario-kun… Mario has shown us many different worlds. They may not be connected, yet in a way, they are. Through our memories and our hearts, Mario’s story continues to be woven, and it’s different for each and every one of us. I’ve seen many works, Osamu Tezuka’s “Star System,” the multiverse systems of American comics like Marvel and DC, and the manga, anime, and games influenced by them—but I never expected to see that kind of world explored in Mario. When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I enjoyed it, but honestly, I wondered whether it leaned too heavily into story for a Mario game. Now, seeing Galaxy remastered in the modern era (with added elements, and in some ways even remade), I feel like the long-held questions I had about Mario have finally been put to rest.

Yeah, but the Multiverse stuff is getting a little too abstract here (and we should wait until the Galaxy movie comes out to see if they want to do anything with it). SM3 just being a stageplay is similar to where I’m going with the paper stuff; even if not legitimately the events themselves, it at least represents them in this way, and this is quite literally the meta-purpose for Paper Mario to begin with (avoiding graphic constraints on the N64 through the flat art style). Miyamoto’s comparison to classic cartoon characters carries over here, which is why Bugs Bunny could hang around with Daffy Duck one day while during another having the latter being just a sketch of cel-work at Bugs’ animation job. It doesn’t have to make sense, but it does in its own weird way.

It’s also not too different with what we do already with things like Mario Party. We already accept the cast just sometimes being movable pieces on a cosmic gameboard while suspending their personal issues to play mini games. And they don’t even have real ‘lore’ to be referenced in other games like Paper Mario does, either.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Yeah, but the Multiverse stuff is getting a little too abstract here (and we should wait until the Galaxy movie comes out to see if they want to do anything with it). SM3 just being a stage-play is similar to where I’m going with the paper stuff; even if not legitimately the events themselves, it at least represents them in this way, and this is quite literally the meta-purpose for Paper Mario to begin with (avoiding graphic constraints on the N64 through the flat art style). Miyamoto’s comparison to classic cartoon characters carries over here, which is why Bugs Bunny could hang around with Daffy Duck one day while during another having the latter being just a sketch of cel-work at Bugs’ animation job. It doesn’t have to make sense, but it does in its own weird way.

It's super interesting to discuss!

 

[AlloyAmi]

All this while mario run continues to be at the end of the timeline.

Agree with them being the same based on the multitude of references establishing continuity connections both in game and even statement wise, though i dont find the universe reset point to be relevant at all though. artstyles realistically just change cuz nintendo feels like it since its a wacky series they can play around with like that with an already cartoony nature/origin.

dont think galaxy 2's statements effects anything in terms of game continuity, and the comment is clearly just their headcanon. There are multiple canon explanations for why bowser races, play sports, etc with mario in verse. Mario himself says he does it to keep a close eye on him, saying "you know what they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer", and bowser just wants to prove himself superior to mario, he very clearly sees him as a rival and wants to show that hes simply better which we see in his diary in 64 and galaxy.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Agree with them being the same, disagree with the universe reset point being relevant at all though. its clearly just changing cuz nintendo feels like it since its a wacky series they can play around with like that with an already cartoony nature.

The Universe reset would just be their lore explanation for being allowed to do that.

 

[AlloyAmi]

The Universe reset would just be their lore explanation for being allowed to do that.

I don't think it fits and relys too much on headcanon, nothing really suggests that as nothing crazy happens between the games where they switch styles, canon mangas like picross suggest he literally just looked like that as his past selves, which would inheritly go much against it being an entire past big bang cycle. games like odyssey that note the 8 bit and polygonal style just being mario in the past also go against this. id even say blocks of nostalgia in superstar saga go against this too. games like pm64 very clearly take place around the 64 era where all the other 64 games occurred. stuff like the potential mario movie nods at most really shouldnt be more treated more then that, considering how vague "trapped in a cage" is, it can refer to literally anything that happened. Crossworlds dialogue interactions have small nods to non canon media as well, but they arent more then just small nods. we already know the games are being influenced by the movies, with the adjusted princess peach showtime artwork, and again, sonic falls victim to this movie influence effect as well due to how big the movies are, they want to make a connection to the audiences but theres no true proven connection between the mario movie and games.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

refer to literally anything that happened.

A nihilistic Lumalee who remembers being trapped in a cage is a pretty obvious reference to the Mario Movie.

nothing really suggests that as nothing crazy happens between the games where they switch styles,

Notably, the box for TTYD (GC) notes that Mario "returns to Paper Form", and the Toad in Odyssey feels nostalgic for a Mario with the N64 Polygonal look. All of this is not only within possiblity, but very suggested in game.

 

[AlloyAmi]

A nihilistic Lumalee who remembers being trapped in a cage is a pretty obvious reference to the Mario Movie.

Its a nod at most, those are 2 separate details in the storybook and can be inspired details while still being separate. The reason they get those traits is because of the cycles which can still be something contained within the game series. Characters in adaptations usually take inspiration from some form of counterparts, but with movie influence they are applying it vice versa (like the electric effect on sonic in frontiers, or peachs boxart change in showtime), making vague connections like that doesn't automatically mean its making a direct connection in canon though. I will also point back to how this explanation does not align with a majority of the proof and treatment of said artstyle changes in verse.

Notably, the box for TTYD (GC) notes that Mario "returns to Paper Form", and the Toad in Odyssey feels nostalgic for a Mario with the N64 Polygonal look. All of this is not only within possiblity, but very suggested in game.

Again, I agree artstyle changes are canon, but theres no explicit reason for them. They just simply happen if nintendo wants the game to. theres the whole pauline inconsistency they made for fun and theres still no proper answer to it without headcanon or contradictions to the established series and even recent statements regarding the game that support the established series stance

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Its a nod at most, those are 2 separate details in the storybook and can be inspired details while still being separate. The reason they get those traits is because of the cycles which can still be something contained within the game series. I will also point back to how this explanation does not align with a majority of the proof and treatment of said artstyle changes in verse. Again, I agree artstyle changes are canon, but theres no explicit reason for them. They just simply happen if nintendo wants the game to. theres the whole pauline inconsistency they made for fun and theres still no proper answer to it without headcanon or contradictions to the established series and even recent statements regarding the game that support the established series stance

I mean, I guess you CAN argue this, but I'm presenting multiple possibilities here.

 

[Osemere]

Its a nod at most, those are 2 separate details in the storybook and can be inspired details while still being separate. The reason they get those traits is because of the cycles which can still be something contained within the game series. I will also point back to how this explanation does not align with a majority of the proof and treatment of said artstyle changes in verse.

Again, I agree artstyle changes are canon, but theres no explicit reason for them. They just simply happen if nintendo wants the game to. theres the whole pauline inconsistency they made for fun and theres still no proper answer to it without headcanon or contradictions to the established series and even recent statements regarding the game that support the established series stance

Agreed with OP needing to drop the universe-cycle thing. Mario doesn’t even have a decisive canon, which just introduces the problem that we’re being pretty arbitrary now by deciding to divide Paper in exclusion to everything else. Nintendo just treats Mario as one monolith and Paper Jam was just a crossing of development teams. It doesn’t really need a ‘hard-canon’ explanation (and even if you want one, the scrapbook one I mentioned in the beginning of the thread is right there.)

 

[AlloyAmi]

I mean, I guess you CAN argue this, but I'm presenting multiple possibilities here.

Imo its clearly just not the intention at all and theres like essentially no proof going for it, considering this is information from a 2025 port, far after a majority of these artstyle changes have existed and have been established to have happened naturally through time, and people like miyamoto just treat them as the same guy going on all these adventures. the storybook doesn't even imply the world vastly changes like artstyle wise, its just big bang cycles of new universes. galaxy 2 is technically a "new" cycle since the universe got reset and theres clearly some changes, but the changes are nowhere near what is being suggested.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Imo its clearly just not the intention at all and theres like essentially no proof going for it, considering this is information from a 2025 port, far after a majority of these artstyle changes have existed and have been established to have happened naturally through time, and people like miyamoto just treat them as the same guy going on all these adventures. the storybook doesn't even imply the world vastly changes like artstyle wise, its just big bang cycles of new universes. galaxy 2 is technically a "new" cycle since the universe got reset and theres clearly some changes, but the changes are nowhere near what is being suggested.

But the storybook DOES imply the Mario Movie was one of these many cycles; which was much more different that Super Mario Galaxy 2 was. When you claim it to be "obviously not the intention"- that simply makes no sense.

 

[AlloyAmi]

But the storybook DOES imply the Mario Movie was one of these many cycles; which was much more different that Super Mario Galaxy 2 was. When you claim it to be "obviously not the intention"- that simply makes no sense.

It really doesn't, its a vague nod which i already said why above. If there was a visual that directly showed said cage mention was actually referring to the events of the movie, then theres proof, but otherwise its a vague nod at best that can easily happen for literally whatever reason in the games and theres a heavy lack of sufficient proof for this very big claim you want to make.


Also wanna bring up this evidence from the latest (chronological) paper title, they consider mario to have blue eyes in the origami king, which can only come from one thing, the "3d" mario.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

It really doesn't, its a vague nod which i already said why above. If there was a visual that directly showed said cage mention was actually referring to the events of the movie, then theres proof, but otherwise its a vague nod at best that can easily happen for literally whatever reason in the games.

Brush it off all you want- it is a very obvious reference to the movie, and the surrounding content supports this idea. C'mon, Ami, there's only ONE event thoughout Mario Media that has an instance of a Nihilistic Lumalee getting trapped in a cage.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Brush it off all you want- it is a very obvious reference to the movie, and the surrounding content supports this idea. C'mon, Ami, there's only ONE event thoughout Mario Media that has an instance of a Nihilistic Lumalee getting trapped in a cage.

The game tie in has a small nod, and again you can't prove its directly referring to the events of the movie in specific, and nihilism can still be an inspired trait that got carried over based on influence. And based on the movie, its a far stronger character trait there, as nihilism is lumalees entire character, mari in the storybook however still has actual things to say and character despite having similar feelings due to the cycles. super show mario borrows stuff from canon mario but isnt exactly canon either. in fact they nod the super show intro in the movie too, but those arent connected either. the statements already talking about offscreen stuff for the games, why would we see it? its purposely vague and isnt out of the question to happen in the game series too. galaxy 1 to 2 is an on screen reset, and its still essentially the same to the games. this is a very obvious reference to the movie too, but its nothing more then a nod due to movie influence on the games of both of these respective series, with more likely coming along the way the more these movies drop. lumalee is even in mario tennis fever. Overall, the main evidence relies on a vague line, and doesn't even properly connect to the main point of artstyle changes, so i personally would suggest dropping this point entirely, though if anyone else wants to discuss it after this they can, but this is my own stance regarding it, and its unlikely to change unless the actual movie release does show some across the spiderverse type stuff.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I always thought paper mario was the same as game mario. Making Mario Great Again one day at a time, so I naturally agree

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

To start this; the new evidence is here to present a serious in-canon possibility for the constant artstyle changes without just chalking up to "well, the devs just feel like it"- when the world changes were exactly what was used as evidence against the notion that Mario and Paper Mario are different characters- I'll just add in this last response to cover my own thoughts, but if @AlloyAmi can send me their discord or something, we can discuss it in DMs afterward.

The game tie in has a small nod, and again you can't prove its directly referring to the events of the movie in specific, and nihilism can still be an inspired trait that got carried over based on influence. And based on the movie, its a far stronger character trait there, as nihilism is lumalees entire character, mari in the storybook however still has actual things to say and character despite having similar feelings due to the cycles.

...that does not entail that they are not the same. What occurs in the movie and what happens in the storybook are two different events, so Lumalee would obviously react in different ways. As a bonus, this nihilistic Lumalee as described in the storybook lost their sense of space and time, so acting different would actually be natural.

with more likely coming along the way the more these movies drop. lumalee is even in mario tennis fever. Overall, the main evidence relies on a vague line, and doesn't even properly connect to the main point of artstyle changes, so i personally would suggest dropping this point entirely, though if anyone else wants to discuss it after this they can, but this is my own stance regarding it, and its unlikely to change unless the actual movie release does show some across the spiderverse type stuff.

I do think the Mario Galaxy movie WILL to some extent cover and answer some of these questions, but you know how Nintendo is. But, as for Tennis fever, we know there are multiple Lumalees, as clearly displayed in Super Mario Galaxy 2- so the Lumalee in tennis fever does not have to be the same one as the one from the Storybook or the Movie. The only reason I suugested this as a possbility is due to the fact that the context of the situation- it's not just "oh wow here's the same SFX or a tiny nod", it's an outright simliar character who experiences the same events and has the same characterization.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Also wanna bring up this evidence from the latest (chronological) paper title, they consider mario to have blue eyes in the origami king, which can only come from one thing, the "3d" mario.

As for this, I wonder if this exists in the JAP version as well- I'll check.

 

[AlloyAmi]

No reason to bring up discord since theres nothing really to discuss, youre just making a massive leap based on a singular vague line thats a small nod to the movie at best.

To start this; the new evidence is here to present a serious in-canon possibility for the constant artstyle changes

This new "evidence" is also irrelevant and doesn't align or correlate with all the other evidence regarding canon artstyle changes as they are just being treated as the past. I genuinely don't understand the push for this. EVEN if you get this accepted there is ZERO correlation with this having to do with artstyle changes and it causes a multitude of contradictions if you argue this as the "in canon explanation". like this strait up isnt a possibility, its strait up wrong and conflicts with the evidence on how they treat said artstyle changes to begin with.

...that does not entail that they are not the same. What occurs in the movie and what happens in the storybook are two different events, so Lumalee would obviously react in different ways. As a bonus, this nihilistic Lumalee as described in the storybook lost their sense of space and time, so acting different would actually be natural.

Your entire proof relies on a vague line, which i already said can easily happen in the game continuity and explained how this is a mere nod to the movie at best, characters get trapped in cages shouldnt be something that could only happen on the movies. Movie inspired character traits again doesn't make them the same, also losing their sense of space and time doesn't really change or address my point i made above at all. big claims require big evidence. There is essentially no evidence, and going from "he was trapped in a cage at some point" to "this clearly means the movie was an entire canon universe reset to the games" is a massive jump. on the other hand, Paper mario being canon, has a multitude of evidence throughout the series both new and old to suggest its all a connected world.

But, as for Tennis fever, we know there are multiple Lumalees, as clearly displayed in Super Mario Galaxy 2- so the Lumalee in tennis fever does not have to be the same one as the one from the Storybook or the Movie. The only reason I suugested this as a possbility is due to the fact that the context of the situation- it's not just "oh wow here's the same SFX or a tiny nod", it's an outright simliar character who experiences the same events and has the same characterization.

Never argued they are the same character, I just said they put a lumalee there clearly as a nod to the movie due to their influence on the games, nobody cared about lumalee prior to this, its just more movie influence being pushed onto the games like sonic electricity

 

[Thunderman101]

folow

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

its strait up wrong and conflicts with the evidence on how they treat said artstyle changes to begin with.

And what exactly is it contradicting?

Your entire proof relies on a vague line, which i already said can easily happen in the game continuity and explained how this is a mere nod to the movie at best, characters get trapped in cages shouldnt be something that could only happen on the movies.

No, it does not; I relies on both that line that Mari can recall being trapped in a cage (with only ONE instance of this ever happening to a Lumalee), on TOP of fact that Mari holds the exact same characterization as she did in the movie.

Never argued they are the same character, I just said they put a lumalee there clearly as a nod to the movie due to their influence on the games, nobody cared about lumalee prior to this, its just more movie influence being pushed onto the games like sonic electricity

It is very easy for me to just claim that this is a reference to the games, not the movie- on top of... the Lumalee isn't even GIVEN that name- it's just an alt skin of a Luma, and it is simply called a Luma.

 

[Starsprite53]

Imo I think the movie point is interesting but like irrelevant to the whole Mario = Paper Mario

 

[AlloyAmi]

And what exactly is it contradicting?

artstyle changes are described and treated as what they literally appeared as in their personal past, all while said media makes references to games that happened not too long ago, the canon picross manga, mario odyssey, even donkey kong land literally just has them change artstyles to 8 bit for the STORY so dk can prove to cranky that his game was good not for the graphics but for the actual gameplay. theres much more but i think the point is expressed already even origami king literally shows the 3d portrayals of the characters in the same game with the bowser painting and statues along with mentioning mario blue eyes. its very clear its all the same world this is rapidly happening in, and not entire big bang cycles to justify singular games. The cycles literally have nothing to do with the art style changes, and theres again no evidence proving so. if anything dk lands story literally just gives us insight that it can just happen just because.

No, it does not; I relies on both that line that Mari can recall being trapped in a cage (with only ONE instance of this ever happening to a Lumalee), on TOP of fact that Mari holds the exact same characterization as she did in the movie.

Its talking about entire off screen big bang resets for a whole knows amount of times, why would we see any of it on screen to begin with, the book doesn't even show us any of it in specific, your cage line included. I again already explained how this isn't that strong of an argument above but repeating it would get circular.

It is very easy for me to just claim that this is a reference to the games, not the movie- on top of... the Lumalee isn't even GIVEN that name- it's just an alt skin of a Luma, and it is simply called a Luma.

Think you ignored the big part where no one cared about lumalee and its a pretty irrelevant sales character otherwise, its very clear why they made it a skin. lumalees are also a just more of the luma species anyway, and are originally just called "salesman lumas" in japan, so being grouped as "luma" isnt necessarily wrong.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

entire big bang cycles to justify singular games. The cycles literally have nothing to do with the art style changes, and theres again no evidence proving so. if anything dk lands story literally just gives us insight that it can just happen just because.

That's not a contradiction, moreso just another way things can occur. Although if this IS the case from what I have seen, I'm willing to post the cycles point as speculation, and then add the evidence you just presented as the bigger point.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

BUMP

I edited to OP to add the evidence that @AlloyAmi presented.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Does this mean we're merging the Paper profile with the Main profile?

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Does this mean we're merging the Paper profile with the Main profile?

That is indeed what I'm proposing- although we will need to keep the Paper Mario profile for the Paper Mario in Paper Jam.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Ba-Bump

 

[Mephistus]

The whole "Paper Mario universe" (multiverse) being held in the book seems to indicate it's all the games of that series (referenced commonly as universe for series').

Screenshot 2026 02 27 18 03 28 50 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 — Postimages

postimg.cc

See how Luigi lets Paper characters out of the bag (er, book) in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam!

See how Luigi lets Paper characters out of the bag (er, book) in the Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam game!

web.archive.org

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

The whole "Paper Mario universe" (multiverse) being held in the book seems to indicate it's all the games of that series (referenced commonly as universe for series').

Mayhaps, but note that Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga DX (post-Paper Jam game) have a "Paper Mario" block as a past adventure (the block is called a block from Mario's Story in the Japanese version) and games like Color Splash, Origami King, etc. reference standard Mario titles.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I think they are the "same person" but the paper physiology and different laws of physics in the paper world should be enough to make Paper Mario a separate profile (or at least different statistics)