Cthulhu Mythos Inverse Revision

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Even though it was clearly stated that this blog does not take the layers into account, I don’t understand why so many people keep getting stuck on the layers instead of focusing on the main topic. Anyway.

Did I understand correctly?
Essentially, although there are eleven people who know the archetypes— in other words, the ultimate mystery — you think that the Outer Gods and the archetypes should be treated separately, because the number of those who are aware of the Outer Gods is greater than that.

 

[Okstrike]

Essentially, although there are eleven people who know the archetypes— in other words, the ultimate mystery — you think that the Outer Gods and the archetypes should be treated separately, because the number of those who are aware of the Outer Gods is greater than that.

There's a lot more reasons for the proposed schism, it isn't just the inconsistency with the exact number of people:

• It's stated that no man since the King Shaddad of 'Ad had been past the final gate (Around 28-10 thousand years ago), which obviously contradicts the fact that Kuranes had supposedly been there
• It's stated multiple times that in order to reach the Ultimate Gate and the Abyss it leads to, one needs to first cross the First Gate, then complete a ritual with silver key whilst the Ancient Ones partake in their own ritual of joining their dreams to unlock it, this contradicts that Carter and the Hunting Horrors where on there way to the the Ultimate Void without doing any of these, hell, there isn't eve a mention of a gate at all
• The Mi-Go are from the Ultimate Void, have contact with Nyarlathotep, and worship the Other Gods, yet they don't know what the Supreme Archetype truly is and only know of it fragmentarily
• And last but not least, there isn't a single mention of the Other Gods throughout the entirety of Through the Gates of the Silver Key, which is the only story where we get an actual look of the Ultimate Reality since it centers around mysticism, the Archetypes also have no apparent correlation with them anyways

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that, if I understood correctly, Ultima has told me that he is only willing to help out with very important staff forum threads and extremely high tier revisions, and we just finished another Cthulhu Mythos revision.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Just a note that, if I understood correctly, Ultima has told me that he is only willing to help out with very important staff forum threads and extremely high tier revisions, and we just finished another Cthulhu Mythos revision.

Perhaps it would have been more reasonable for them to open both this topic and the topic they mentioned about cosmology at the same time. In this way, people could have a more specific grasp of the matter, and since this would be a high-tier revision (I think it will be), it would also be good for Ultima.

 

[Okstrike]

Just a note that, if I understood correctly, Ultima has told me that he is only willing to help out with very important staff forum threads and extremely high tier revisions, and we just finished another Cthulhu Mythos revision.

Could it be possible for you ping other staff to evaluate the CRT? As of now, there are 4 staff members (excluding Ultima) listed as supporters of the Verse who might be interested, and we only need 3 to agree to pass a CRT irrc

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I think that our last Cthulhu Mythos revision was fine and appropriately thoroughly evaluated by knowledgeable members, so I do not support reversing it.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

There's a lot more reasons for the proposed schism, it isn't just the inconsistency with the exact number of people:

• It's stated that no man since the King Shaddad of 'Ad had been past the final gate (Around 28-10 thousand years ago), which obviously contradicts the fact that Kuranes had supposedly been there
• It's stated multiple times that in order to reach the Ultimate Gate and the Abyss it leads to, one needs to first cross the First Gate, then complete a ritual with silver key whilst the Ancient Ones partake in their own ritual of joining their dreams to unlock it, this contradicts that Carter and the Hunting Horrors where on there way to the the Ultimate Void without doing any of these, hell, there isn't eve a mention of a gate at all
• The Mi-Go are from the Ultimate Void, have contact with Nyarlathotep, and worship the Other Gods, yet they don't know what the Supreme Archetype truly is and only know of it fragmentarily
• And last but not least, there isn't a single mention of the Other Gods throughout the entirety of Through the Gates of the Silver Key, which is the only story where we get an actual look of the Ultimate Reality since it centers around mysticism, the Archetypes also have no apparent correlation with them anyways

• I still believe that the Archetypes and the Outer Gods are actually the same beings. First of all, I should mention that in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, it was Nyarlathotep who sent Carter there, which seems to make the necessity of ritualistic mediators or directors something that can be overlooked. Alternatively, it could be that since Lovecraft wrote The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath earlier, he had not yet fully conceptualized things like the Gates—but the first explanation feels more reasonable to me.
• In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, when Carter wants to experience the Ultimate Mystery (and the fact that only eleven people know it is important), Yog-Sothoth seems to speak about the ontological nature of the Archetypes. This leads to the conclusion that, unlike the Mi-Go and others who know of the Outer Gods, only eleven individuals truly know the nature of the Outer Gods—or the Ultimate Mystery itself.

In short, even regarding the Outer Gods, there are only eleven individuals who know their archetypal nature and have attained the Ultimate Mystery, compared to the many others.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

• I still believe that the Archetypes and the Outer Gods are actually the same beings. First of all, I should mention that in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, it was Nyarlathotep who sent Carter there, which seems to make the necessity of ritualistic mediators or directors something that can be overlooked. Alternatively, it could be that since Lovecraft wrote The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath earlier, he had not yet fully conceptualized things like the Gates—but the first explanation feels more reasonable to me.
• In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, when Carter wants to experience the Ultimate Mystery (and the fact that only eleven people know it is important), Yog-Sothoth seems to speak about the ontological nature of the Archetypes. This leads to the conclusion that, unlike the Mi-Go and others who know of the Outer Gods, only eleven individuals truly know the nature of the Outer Gods—or the Ultimate Mystery itself.

In short, even regarding the Outer Gods, there are only eleven individuals who know their archetypal nature and have attained the Ultimate Mystery, compared to the many others.

I honestly think you wrote this message without even understanding the argument being presented here.
The point of using dream-quest Is to Say that already 3 men has travelled to other dreamlands etc with kuranes explicitly going into the ultimate void where azathoth lives and despite this in gates of the silver Key no man since shaddad was able to get past the ultimate gate with said ultimate gate being unlockable ONLY with a ritual with the silver Key and Ancient ones(so you didnt even address the reason why we use dream-quest).

Of these eleven individuals only 5 were humans which goes directly in contrast with whisperer and dream-quest also no, the mi-go comes from the outside(place where the other gods rules, live) they have contact with them, worship them, know where they come from and what they are and despite this they Dont really know what the archetype is as all conceptions are too small to describe It.

I think you should re-read the blog honestly.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

I honestly think you wrote this message without even understanding the argument being presented here.
The point of using dream-quest Is to Say that already 3 men has travelled to other dreamlands etc with kuranes explicitly going into the ultimate void where azathoth lives and despite this in gates of the silver Key no man since shaddad was able to get past the ultimate gate with said ultimate gate being unlockable ONLY with a ritual with the silver Key and Ancient ones(so you didnt even address the reason why we use dream-quest).

Of these eleven individuals only 5 were humans which goes directly in contrast with whisperer and dream-quest also no, the mi-go comes from the outside(place where the other gods rules, live) they have contact with them, worship them, know where they come from and what they are and despite this they Dont really know what the archetype is as all conceptions are too small to describe It.

I think you should re-read the blog honestly.

and what they are

Where exactly does this happen? Where does it happen that they know their nature, their ontological characteristics?

Knowing ≠ Comprehending
Contact ≠ Ontological realization

In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the Archetype level:
Transcends conceptual thought.
All descriptions are insufficient to capture it.

And as I said, the book's definition of archetypes in those texts is entirely about the nature of the gods.Moreover, it is explicitly stated that they are still entities of the Ultimate Abyss.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Of these eleven individuals only 5 were humans which goes directly in contrast with whisperer and dream-quest

Why? Explain in more detail.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Where exactly does this happen? Where does it happen that they know their nature, their ontological characteristics? And as I said, the book's definition of archetypes in those texts is entirely about the nature of the gods.Moreover, it is explicitly stated that they are still entities of the Ultimate Void.

... In the same quote in the additional info how for example nyarlathotep Is the Messenger of the other gods, that they live in the void etc.
No, lol the nature of the archetypes Is their identity this Is the reason why It Is said that the mi-go( and all cults in general) doesnt know what they actually are + you are still not addressing any other points regarding shaddad, kuranes etc.

"Why? Explain in more detail."
Ye, Bro thanks for confirming me that you didnt even understand the blog, again re-read the blog(you can read the conclusion to maybe understand It), cuz if you wanna comment on Something you didnt even understand then I Dont care to answer you, I don't say this in a bad way, but I just don't like wasting time.
I Will come back when a mod Will care to look into the blog tom made.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

you are still not addressing any other points regarding shaddad, kuranes etc.

I will address that.

In the same quote in the additional info how for example nyarlathotep Is the Messenger of the other gods, that they live in the void etc.

So are you claiming, based entirely on this, that the Mi-Go possess complete knowledge of the ontological properties of the gods? If that's the reason, it's not convincing.

No, lol the nature of the archetypes Is their identity this Is the reason why It Is said that the mi-go( and all cults in general) doesnt know what they actually are

This is what I mean. The ontological nature of the gods is incomprehensible or unknowable. However, they are not absolutely unknowable; they can be known through fragmentary and partial descriptions. When Carter encounters Yog-Sothoth, he says that all conceptions of it are faint and fragmentary, yet the existence of those who are aware of it is still confirmed. This clearly shows that the ultimate (archetypal) nature of the Outer Gods is unknowable except in the context of the Ultimate Mystery, and that those who know of them (more than the eleven individuals) know the archetypes only through partial and limited conceptions. Only the eleven truly know their incomprehensible nature. Fully realizing a being’s archetypal essence is rare (eleven individuals), but being aware of that being, worshipping it, or interacting with it is far more common.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

"Why? Explain in more detail."
Ye, Bro thanks for confirming me that you didnt even understand the blog, again re-read the blog(you can read the conclusion to maybe understand It), cuz if you wanna comment on Something you didnt even understand then I Dont care to answer you, I don't say this in a bad way, but I just don't like wasting time.
I Will come back when a mod Will care to look into the blog tom made.

Okay, that's your choice, I don't really care.

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Sorry I couldn't respond to any arguments or debunks or what not.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Well, if this thread continues like this, it's better if we close it and then when we have time to make another One with both the cosmology and the inverse at once because the people interested in this verse do only care about that one thing

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Well, if this thread continues like this, it's better if we close it and then when we have time to make another One with both the cosmology and the inverse at once because the people interested in this verse do only care about that one thing

Agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Should I close this then?

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Should I close this then?

I suppose so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I have done so.