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Naruto - Giant Snake Calcs Issue

Damage3245

Damage3245

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This issue concerns the following Kinetic Energy calculations for Naruto:
The relevant passage of the Large Size Calculations page for these calcs to be valid is this:

An alternative method to calculate Attack Potency from size is from Kinetic Energy. There one takes the mass of the character and uses its running speed to get Kinetic Energy via "Kinetic Energy = 0.5*Mass*(Running speed)^2". Here mass should be in kilogram and running speed in meter per second. The result is in joule.

The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material. Should that not be possible, but it is known that the character moves relative to its size as fast or faster than its normal-sized counterpart, upscaled speed can be used. To confirm that they are that fast, it must be clear that they, for instance, take steps within the same timeframe or less than a normal human would. If that is the case, then their speed should be x-times higher than that of their normal-sized counterpart, if they are x-times larger.
Click to expand...

The speed is not being measured directly here for either of the giant snakes in question. Instead it is being assumed that their strike is relative in speed to their giant size as it would be for an ordinary snake. Some values are cited such as ordinary snakes being able to reach a top speed of 3 m/s, accelerate at 160 m/s^2 and from that it is calculated that the time it takes a snake to accelerate to their top speed is 0.01875 seconds.

Using that timeframe, the acceleration of the giant snake is found as being 32898 m/s^2 in the case of the one that Naruto stopped. Manda's acceleration is found to be about 1121757 m/s^2. Both large figures that contribute to the high result of Lifting Strength required to stop them.

In the quoted section above, it says:

To confirm that they are that fast, it must be clear that they, for instance, take steps within the same timeframe or less than a normal human would.
Click to expand...

The core issue is that it isn't proven that the giant snakes in question can accelerate to their top speed in the same timeframe that an ordinary snake could.

The page cites this as something we have to confirm for them to be as fast as we assume them to be. If there's no confirmation, then the resulting accelerations are effectively arbitrary, and the force and Lifting Strength values derived from them lack a valid foundation.

Furthermore, I can think of no good reason why we should just assume the timeframe to be the same. The differences between an ordinary snake and a giant snake are numerous; their mass is different, their lengths are different, their speeds are different, etc... The only value that is being assumed to be constant here is the time it takes each of them to reach their top speed. If there is no reason for that, then the calcs should be removed.
 
Quick question

You think we could find a timeframe through the anime or off of a different piece of logic that shows their possible speeds?
 
Yeahhh, We really don’t need anymore outdated scaling from removed calcs on the profiles piling up.

So that would be greatly appreciated KT🙏

I’ll look into who’ll be affected by a recalc although I think changes will mainly be LS scaling.
 
I mean if we assume that character moves the same way (timeframe) relative to its size then acceleration should also be pretty much size ratio * normal acceleration. If you think that this assumption doesn't work, then speed/KE part also doesn't work.

I disagree with the thread but I think that we should either keep both KE and LS or keep neither.
 
Floxy178 said:
I mean if we assume that character moves the same way (timeframe) relative to its size then acceleration should also be pretty much size ratio * normal acceleration. If you think that this assumption doesn't work, then speed/KE part also doesn't work.

I disagree with the thread but I think that we should either keep both KE and LS or keep neither.
Click to expand...
If you think that we should keep neither then it sounds like you partly agree with the thread since that's what I'm proposing?
 
Damage3245 said:
If you think that we should keep neither then it sounds like you partly agree with the thread since that's what I'm proposing?
Click to expand...
I'm just saying that I don't see a case where KE stays but not LS, or the other way around. It's either "both KE and LS works" or "neither KE nor LS works" unless I'm missing anything.

I've got the impression that this thread is only about LS recalc. (if not you can correct me)
 
Ah, apologies if that was unclear but I did list the AP calculation in the OP too. Not just the Lifting Strength ones.
 
That had its own LS calc too so I thought it's just the naming, since the OP raises the problem about timeframe to reach top speed, not top speed itself.

Anyway, if the thread is about recalcing both KE and LS, I'll wait for any counter arguments first and look through calcs to see if they had similar discussion. For now I'm neutral.
 
Godernet said:
I’ll look into who’ll be affected by a recalc although I think changes will mainly be LS scaling.
Click to expand...
Half the verse LS scaling will be affected by this

Edit: I’m gonna add that the Tsunade Class T calc isn’t used. WoI told me what was wrong with it, and I didn’t include it in the mid-high tiers LS revision.
 
Last edited:
Damage3245 said:
The core issue is that it isn't proven that the giant snakes in question can accelerate to their top speed in the same timeframe that an ordinary snake could.

The page cites this as something we have to confirm for them to be as fast as we assume them to be. If there's no confirmation, then the resulting accelerations are effectively arbitrary, and the force and Lifting Strength values derived from them lack a valid foundation.

Furthermore, I can think of no good reason why we should just assume the timeframe to be the same. The differences between an ordinary snake and a giant snake are numerous; their mass is different, their lengths are different, their speeds are different, etc... The only value that is being assumed to be constant here is the time it takes each of them to reach their top speed. If there is no reason for that, then the calcs should be removed.
Click to expand...
If it proves to move fluently despite its size, then the comparison with the speed of movement proportional to size is consistent, shouldn't it also be consistent for acceleration? If it has already proven to be effectively larger without any problems in movement, it seems to me like saying that once I have proven that a giant can run consistently without problems, I must prove that it can also do so with its fists, which is less complex and moves less mass. When snakes attack, they do not accelerate their entire body, but only a small part of it.

But perhaps I have not fully understood your point and the standards.
 
Syncornize said:
If it proves to move fluently despite its size, then the comparison with the speed of movement proportional to size is consistent, shouldn't it also be consistent for acceleration? If it has already proven to be effectively larger without any problems in movement, it seems to me like saying that once I have proven that a giant can run consistently without problems, I must prove that it can also do so with its fists, which is less complex and moves less mass. When snakes attack, they do not accelerate their entire body, but only a small part of it.

But perhaps I have not fully understood your point and the standards.
Click to expand...
The first part that you've mentioned hasn't been proven currently.
 
Damage3245 said:
The first part that you've mentioned hasn't been proven currently.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, Damage, what would be required to prove such a thing? 'Cause it doesn't really seem like the sort of thing your average author would really delve into, lol. Maybe a psycho like Gege would

Also, it's been a while, man. How've you been?
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Out of curiosity, Damage, what would be required to prove such a thing? 'Cause it doesn't really seem like the sort of thing your average author would really delve into, lol. Maybe a psycho like Gege would
Click to expand...
At the moment after reviewing the manga and the anime, I don't think it can be proven without an explicit timeframe. The Large Size Calculations page does advise though that the best practice would be to measure the speed directly from the source material, so we should do that instead if we're going to re-calculate it.

UchihaSlayer96 said:
Also, it's been a while, man. How've you been?
Click to expand...
I've been generally good, all things considered.
 
Damage3245 said:
At the moment after reviewing the manga and the anime, I don't think it can be proven without an explicit timeframe. The Large Size Calculations page does advise though that the best practice would be to measure the speed directly from the source material, so we should do that instead if we're going to re-calculate it.
Click to expand...
Sure, yeah, that sounds good. Personally I always prefer getting such things from the source material instead of making assumptions, anyway.
Damage3245 said:
I've been generally good, all things considered.
Click to expand...
Awesome, glad to hear it!
 
Damage3245 said:
At the moment after reviewing the manga and the anime, I don't think it can be proven without an explicit timeframe.
Click to expand...
Yeah this is a problem. The anime literally stretches the scene out for like 15 seconds and it's just full of cinematic timeframe bullshit.
We can assume a timeframe but it's unfortunately gonna downgrade the feat badly, and when I say badly I mean unfairly. Like even saying 5 seconds is ridiculous alone.

Is there another semi-canon source showing a timeframe of this feat?
 
Sure thing. If there's no replacement for the calc after this weekend then I'll get started on a CRT to just remove the calcs from the profiles.
 
Damage3245 said:
@UchihaSlayer96 Did you manage to find anything for it?
Click to expand...
Isn’t it possible to apply a similar scaling chain here? Manda fights on par with Gamabunta, who should meet the standard, and therefore Manda should scale accordingly as well.(?)

This panel also appears to convey rapid, dynamic movement. Moreover, before the acid even makes contact with the stone, Manda has already moved completely out of frame and begun wrapping himself around Katsuyu. Both he and Tsunade seem visibly impressed. Considering that Manda’s length clearly exceeds Gamabunta’s height, this would imply a very "high level" of speed.

I’m not certain whether these points can be considered definitive evidence, but since we’re discussing it, they seem worth taking into account.
 
Syncornize said:
Isn’t it possible to apply a similar scaling chain here? Manda fights on par with Gamabunta, who should meet the standard, and therefore Manda should scale accordingly as well.(?)

This panel also appears to convey rapid, dynamic movement. Moreover, before the acid even makes contact with the stone, Manda has already moved completely out of frame and begun wrapping himself around Katsuyu. Both he and Tsunade seem visibly impressed. Considering that Manda’s length clearly exceeds Gamabunta’s height, this would imply a very "high level" of speed.

I’m not certain whether these points can be considered definitive evidence, but since we’re discussing it, they seem worth taking into account.
Click to expand...
It doesn't provide us with a solid speed value unfortunately. It's not just a matter of being shown to be fast.
 
Damage3245 said:
It doesn't provide us with a solid speed value unfortunately. It's not just a matter of being shown to be fast.
Click to expand...
Manda only appears in the battle with the 3 Sannin and when Sasuke summons him against Deidara's explosion. If that's not enough, I don't think the calc can be saved.
 
I mean, we could wait until that re-animation that was supposed to celebrate Naruto's 20th anniversary comes out. I give it a decade.

Other than that, I don't believe there's another animated scene that captures the movement of the snake in this scene.
 
Ngl, can't we just assume a timeframe based on the panel rule shit we got? Just say like a max of 5 seconds for movement or sum
 
Damage3245 said:
This issue concerns the following Kinetic Energy calculations for Naruto:
Click to expand...
I’ve been thinking that the result might need to be reconsidered. In the initial premise of the calc., it is assumed that the snake is moving half of its body weight; however, when looking at the scene, the distance between Orochimaru and Sasuke does not seem that large. Moreover, using Naruto as a reference point, even just a portion of the snake’s head already appears to be around 10m.
As the animation suggests, the snake seems to move only a limited upper portion of its body in order to reach Sasuke. Considering that the snake is 1,130m, it seems absurd that it would have moved more than 500m of its body.

I am not entirely sure about this assessment, so I would like to know what you think.
 
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