[Mega Man X + Zero (& ZX too)] Infinite Speed Downgrades

[AlloyAmi]

This CRT upgraded the series to "possibly infinite" speeds via these scans.

However, the first scan is rather weak, as SeijiSetto explained here on how it doesn't literally mean infinite, but infinitely expanding.

The second scan is from the most literal random mobile spin off and can much reasonably be dismissed as a hype statement as its to advertise the game on its website.

This also contradicts direct statements as already used in this blog about Duo, (along with this scan here) about primary material from within mainline games suggesting the universe has an edge or "farthest reach", aka a place that has a most distant part which shouldn't be applicable for an infinite universe.

Even if this isn't decided to be enough proof to remove the reasoning for infinite universes, it should be regarded as an Outlier anyway due to the vast amount of anti feats and showings putting the casts at finite speeds as I will explain here:

The characters are narratively very much bound by time on multiple occasions including grand finales such as Zero's final fight against Weil. This is also reflected with gameplay segments such as X4's Cyberspace stage where you rank is determined on how fast you complete each area, and X8's Troia Base where your speed determines your rank for the next challenge or how many enemies can you defeat under a time limit.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

I agree

 

[StarShooter80]

I agree, however the anti-feats in question would also be an anti-feat for the MFTL+ tiers of the verse (heck even FTL scaling) though the supporting feats seems to outweigh that anyways.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I agree, however the anti-feats in question would also be an anti-feat for the MFTL+ tiers of the verse (heck even FTL scaling) though the supporting feats seems to outweigh that anyways.

I don't think any verse (especially games) can incorporate time limits in a way that works for higher speed scaling as they are usually designed in a way for the players to comprehend, i moreso just see it as a representation that they are bound by finite speed and have some form of limited time narratively. And yeah there are a lot of MFTL+ feats to support the rating narratively since the classic era with Mega Man 3, V, and 8.

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree, however the anti-feats in question would also be an anti-feat for the MFTL+ tiers of the verse (heck even FTL scaling) though the supporting feats seems to outweigh that anyways.

That's not entirely inaccurate, but I think it misses the key point, da real issue is the "concept" of characters having infinite speed. MFTL+ is so fast, yet it remains finite still constrained by time and distance which can be interpreted or handled in different ways (Light goes brrrr) whereas infinite speed operates under a fundamentally different treatement.

 

[StarShooter80]

I don't think any verse (especially games) can incorporate time limits in a way that works for higher speed scaling as the representations are usually designed in a way for the players to comprehend, i moreso just see it as a representation that they are bound by finite speed and have some form of limited time narratively.

I get what you mean but honestly it just seems like game mechanics otherwise

 

[LaserPrecision]

Isn't it possible that the countdowns for the stages are from their perspective? Not to say I disagree with the CRT, but playing devils advocate: Infinite speed characters would still have their own sense of time, and said time could be seconds from their frame of reference. Not real time seconds (The 10 hour one isn't what I'm referring to here. Only the in-game timers).

 

[StarShooter80]

That's not entirely inaccurate, but I think it misses the key point, da real issue is the "concept" of characters having infinite speed. MFTL+ is so fast, yet it remains finite still constrained by time and distance which can be interpreted or handled in different ways (Light goes brrrr) whereas infinite speed operates under a fundamentally different treatement.

A character that moves in the quintillions of c range should not struggle with the issue of a two minute long time limit when completing a task, that time for them is far too infinitesimal, it'd be the equivalent of millions of years as ridiculous as that sounds, this timer should not be a factor at all during the fight it's more likely to just be a game mechanic. An infinite speed character is just more blatant in this aspect

 

[AlloyAmi]

Isn't it possible that the countdowns for the stages are from their perspective? Not to say I disagree with the CRT, but playing devils advocate: Infinite speed characters would still have their own sense of time, and said time could be seconds from their frame of reference. Not real time seconds (The 10 hour one isn't what I'm referring to here. Only the in-game timers).

X5 is a major narrative one that applies to everyone, so it definitely cannot be ignored.

The X3 one is a timer on a bomb set to blow up an area with a direct time frame of minutes given. The same applies to the Hidden Phantom stage, with minutes also given as a time frame before they blow up the area.

The last one with weil is the time until Ragnarok crashes to the earth and destroys area zero, similar to Eurasia timing, its a timer that applies to everyone.

The other more gameplay sided stuff serves as supplementary evidence supporting them being bound by finite time.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Honestly, the infinite speed seems baseless, and the Anti-feats are pretty damning for MFTL+ too...

 

[AlloyAmi]

Why does MFTL+ keep getting brought up? the purpose of this thread and the anti feats is to establish them being bound by finite time and the issues with the proof regarding infinite. The main beef of this crt is the infinite reasoning being weak, the anti feats are just there to add onto it by being an outlier even if legit. There is a multitude of MFTL+ feats that solidify the rating narratively since the earliest point in the timeline and I already explained how the divide between being presentable to the player and lore feats co exist. If this is "pretty damning", then i can only imagine the amount of "pretty damning" stuff for some other verses higher finite feats.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

However, the first scan is rather weak, as @SeijiSetto explained here on how it doesn't literally mean infinite, but infinitely expanding.

In the same way we use that type of sayings to say that "this desert expands to kilometers", it doesn't mean that the desert literally does that, it's already a defined size. Really, this type of argumentation was made because people were trying to debunk Infinite Universe DB, but as explained by native japanese speaker and other translators, it's really straight up infinity

The second scan is from the most literal random mobile spin off and can much reasonably be dismissed as a hype statement as its to advertise the game on its website

Don't see why it would be "hype", it's just stating the immense size of the universe in the series. It's not really just hype and aura.

This also contradicts direct statements as already used in this blog about Duo

This is a strong argument and i may be neutral. However, it should be noted that 'farthest' is usually in reference to what is the most distant from a speaker. But overall, i think this should be fine

along with this scan here

This scan says Duo came from the other side of the universe not necessarily a contradiction.

I also don't think the time spans are necessarily contradictions. Most of them are simply gameplay mechanics and either don't affect the lore much or are involving MFTL+ characters who are pretty much fighting in a grand final battle. Also, it's pretty much impossible to portray a MFTL+ or Infinite speed character in their actual speed. Hell, GT Goku is Infinite yet he fails to defeat the Three Star Dragon in 5 seconds.

For reference, i think it's fine to treat it as an outlier, but the lore does say it's infinite in size. The Xtreme feat should be straight up Immeasurable but i have no idea how the standards work for that type of stuff

 

[AlloyAmi]

In the same way we use that type of sayings to say that "this desert expands to kilometers", it doesn't mean that the desert literally does that, it's already a defined size. Really, this type of argumentation was made because people were trying to debunk Infinite Universe DB, but as explained by native japanese speaker and other translators, it's really straight up infinity

Setto and several mods on the other thread seemed to disagree and found the first scan alone as too weak, with the argument mainly being relian on the 2nd scan. and my r/translator post translated it as infinitely expanding so perhaps we can get more external evaluation from others in this thread.

Don't see why it would be "hype", it's just stating the immense size of the universe in the series. It's not really just hype and aura.

While yes you can interpret it as literal as it is, i feel like its just hyperbolic to enhance the theme of being in space and rescuing people in it which is the main theme of the game. Obviously you aren't going through an entire infinite space and rescuing people spanning it all but it just sounds cooler for the sake of a marketing statement then one of lore. statements that go more with the story like duo coming from the farthest side of the universe poke a hole in this statement.

This is a strong argument and i may be neutral. However, it should be noted that 'farthest' is usually in reference to what is the most distant from a speaker. But overall, i think this should be fine This scan says Duo came from the other side of the universe not necessarily a contradiction.

I don't really get the point of the speaker argument cuz both statements are from books telling the story from an omniscient point of view to the reader and not characters in verse, so its more likely they just intended him to come from the farthest side of the universe, which pokes a big hole in the logic of that of an infinite sized one as I said before.

I also don't think the time spans are necessarily contradictions. Most of them are simply gameplay mechanics and either don't affect the lore much or are involving MFTL+ characters who are pretty much fighting in a grand final battle. Also, it's pretty much impossible to portray a MFTL+ or Infinite speed character in their actual speed. Hell, GT Goku is Infinite yet he fails to defeat the Three Star Dragon in 5 seconds.

My main point is that they are bound by finite time in several plot beats, and while its in a way thats presentable to he player, its still supposed to represent some form of having limits under time. mftl+ is also extremely consistent and has tons of support, while infinite is already flimsy at best feat wise.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Currently neutral, but fine with either.

The infinite speed reasoning, while imo is genuinely passable, could be much stronger. I'm perfectly okay if the rating's taken down in the interest of a stronger argument before it's put back up (although it might sting a bit because I lowkey do have this interpretation myself).

 

[JJSliderman]

Admittedly some of the infinite speed reasoning could be better.

In terms of the anti-feats, Mega Man’s infinite speed rating in spite of them is consistent with how at least some other infinite speed series on the wiki are treated, so I’m neutral.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Adding on: I think the narrative stuff like X5 and maybe Z4 is fine to argue but using stages like X4 Cyberspace and X8 Troia Base doesn't quite hold up as well and could also be disregarded as simply being gameplay mechanics as there's no way to determine a canonical, story-related timelapse as it is entirely dependent on the player's ability to play the game and what they choose to do in the moment.

But even if we could, it's honestly most likely that X and Zero could've no-diffed these stages in particular, time limits be damned, given how capable they are already shown to be. The overall point's not lost on me, and I think there's validity to it, but using these two stages that are mostly just gameplay as supporting anti-feats isn't as solid to me because there's hardly any story to these levels aside from what they are, what's happening to the place, and who's responsible a majority of the time.

The difference between MFTL+ and Infinite in these timelapses, while numerically very notable, is also practically speaking miniscule. These MFTL+ characters should logically be blitzing and gathering the Enigma parts or beating up Weil fused with Ragnarok in a manner of seconds—if even that. Infinite speed characters would now just be doing it, quite literally speaking, instantly.

What this truly comes down to, to me at least (and you're all free to agree or disagree), is whether or not a stronger overall argument for Infinite speeds than the one we currently have can be made. Space Rescue is honestly kind of ridiculous in hindsight and there's not even a proper consensus on what the MMV guidebook scan is even saying. That makes the whole thing dubious to me.

 

[Da3ggman]

I agree with nuking it

 

[SweetDao]

I think the infinite speed should be nuked, but I agree the mention of "timer" is kind of pointless here, especially since the "timer" exists from a meta-perspective and not literally in-game. Even if it has some "implications" in the gameplay, it's moreso for the player rather than the character themselves. Unless I missed something, I feel like a direct mention of "you took two minutes to reach that place", with said place being extremely limited spatially, would be more damning in my opinion, especially if it's something that seldom happens.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Adding on: I think the narrative stuff like X5 and maybe Z4 is fine to argue but using stages like X4 Cyberspace and X8 Troia Base doesn't quite hold up as well and could also be disregarded as simply being gameplay mechanics as there's no way to determine a canonical, story-related timelapse as it is entirely dependent on the player's ability to play the game and what they choose to do in the moment.

Just wanna say I pointed these out as more supplementary gameplay supporting evidence that supports the more bigger narrative points used before them, and theres more narrative sided moments such as Vile and Hidden Phantom's bombs that I also brought up. Overall though, my main case is infinite has basically no consistency or support going for it.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Just wanna say I pointed these out as more supplementary gameplay supporting evidence that supports the more bigger narrative points used before them, and theres more narrative sided moments such as Vile and Hidden Phantom's bombs that I also brought up. Overall though, my main case is infinite has basically no consistency or support going for it.

No worries, I understood the intent behind it. Just wanted to offer my own perspective on it.

 

[IDK3465]

Not much of a Megaman expert, but I agree given the evidence presented

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This CRT upgraded the series to "possibly infinite" speeds via these scans.

However, the first scan is rather weak, as SeijiSetto explained here on how it doesn't literally mean infinite, but infinitely expanding.

The second scan is from the most literal random mobile spin off and can much reasonably be dismissed as a hype statement as its to advertise the game on its website.

This also contradicts direct statements as already used in this blog about Duo, (along with this scan here) about primary material from within mainline games suggesting the universe has an edge or "farthest reach", aka a place that has a most distant part which shouldn't be applicable for an infinite universe.

A little neutral on this point. I do agree with statements like farthest reach and such would be detrimental to a supposed infinite universe but there are times in which those are the known reaches of space, not to full limit. It's odd to use an advertise statement for a mobile game but I don't know Maga Man lore/continuity enough to say anything.

Even if this isn't decided to be enough proof to remove the reasoning for infinite universes, it should be regarded as an Outlier anyway due to the vast amount of anti feats and showings putting the casts at finite speeds as I will explain here:

The characters are narratively very much bound by time on multiple occasions including grand finales such as Zero's final fight against Weil. This is also reflected with gameplay segments such as X4's Cyberspace stage where you rank is determined on how fast you complete each area, and X8's Troia Base where your speed determines your rank for the next challenge or how many enemies can you defeat under a time limit.

This is a point I can agree with. I will say that people in the comments are correct about timers, however the ones directly involving plot points would be considered anti-feats. These can't really be time sensitive threats when dealing with infinite speed characters, and I understand the counterpoint that it may be used against higher finite speeds, it's clear that they are from the narrative perspective not infinite speed characters. Characters can move at different speeds, yes, they might always hit their maximum or go at a needed pace. but when you're arguing that they possess infinite speed, I'd rather more backing.

So overall, I can agree with this revision as of this moment.

 

[AlloyAmi]

A little neutral on this point. I do agree with statements like farthest reach and such would be detrimental to a supposed infinite universe but there are times in which those are the known reaches of space, not to full limit.

I can see that but the statements comes from an omniscient narrators giving specific details about what's happening in the story as opposed to like an inverse statement from someone's perspective, along with multiple statements being consistent with this detail.

It's odd to use an advertise statement for a mobile game but I don't know Maga Man lore/continuity enough to say anything.

Most mega man fans prob don't even know the game exists nor is it really acknowledged by anything. It doesn't play any part in the lore/continuity/story and is really just akin to a minigame where you rescue people in space for a really early official 2000s mobile phone game.


Thank you for your overall input, if you don't mind me asking how many staff would be required for this thread?

 

[TyranoDoom30]

It's odd to use an advertise statement for a mobile game but I don't know Maga Man lore/continuity enough to say anything.

For reference, we do not treat the game as non-canon, as it's an official game made by Capcom Japan that has little story, so zero contradictions or relevant lore. The statement is also coming from the official (now defunct) website for it.

That said, the Haoh Game Special scan is way more significant. I still go by the idea that the translation should really mean straight up infinity but infinite universe DB threads really messed up how we translate that

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Thank you for your overall input, if you don't mind me asking how many staff would be required for this thread?

2 if I'm not mistaken. (So you'd need one more approval)

 

[AlloyAmi]

bump

 

[Dalesean027]

This seems fine

 

[AlloyAmi]

This seems fine

thats 2 approvals, is this thread good to pass now?

 

[StarShooter80]

thats 2 approvals, is this thread good to pass now?

Yup it's accepted per content revision rules

 

[Dalesean027]

thats 2 approvals, is this thread good to pass now?

Yeah

 

[AlloyAmi]

Finished updating the pages, this can be closed now.