Mega Man X/Zero/ZX Speed Revision

[Maestro_Churches]

A minor revision for the speed ratings from the Mega Man X/Zero/ZX saga.

Infinite Speed Removal​

This speed feat was calculated in the realms of Quintillions C, but got upgraded with a possible Infinite Speed rating due to this scan saying that the Mega Man universe is infinite in size. However, I believe this is a hyperbolic quote, as the text states that you, as the player, will be saving individuals trapped in space, and they obviously reference the fact that space is vast by using the word infinity to emphasize how important is your mission to save these lives. Furthermore, the battle between Duo and the Dark Energy took place at the edge of the universe according to Rockman 8's Daizukan, which wouldn't make sense if the universe were infinite. The fact that characters have infinite speed is an idea with virtually no support that invalidates the overwhelming amount of feats and quotes that put characters' speeds on finite scales, so I believe it should be removed.

Sextillions C​

With that in mind, the highest calculated speed feat, as shown above, was Quintillions C, but I think it's possible to bring it to the next level: Sextillions C.

The feat I'll be using for that is Mother Elf killing the Sigma Virus in an instant, which was calculated as Billions C assuming that the distance covered was that of the Earth's surface to the moon (434,996,000 meters) and the timeframe being 0.00000000291 seconds.

The timeframe is correct, but the distance covered is potentially bigger, as in Mega Man X5's manual, it is implied that the Sigma Virus covered the entire galaxy:

The year is AD 21XX ...
The galaxy is at peace after centuries of fighting the Reploid Wars ...
The moon is the center of a swarm of orbiting colonies.
The largest, a massive colony named Eurasia, is undergoing extensive
renovation to make it the most colossal and most advances of all
the orbiting outposts.

When an unknown evil force occupies Eurasia, the peace collapses!
Eurasia's artificial gravity device is wrecked. The colony spins out
of orbit, and is now headed on a collision course toward Earth!

Using now the distance of 100.000 light years, we would get 100.000 LY / (0.00000000291 seconds) = 1.0844724914093392e+21 C or 1.084 sextillion times faster than light. Calculation done here.

Is there any problem with this feat?​

Honestly, the information about the Sigma Virus covering the galaxy is from the US MMX5 manual; I never find that in any original JP material. So, if it's truly not present in the original source of the series (Japan), it might just be "non-canon" or completely useless, but I would like to hear the thoughts of the people here, if it can be used or not.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

Requesting evaluation from knowledgeable members:

@Migue79 @Starter_Pack @Chaos Jester25 @TyranoDoom30

 

[Dalesean027]

Requesting evaluation from knowledgeable members:

@Migue79 @Starter_Pack @Chaos Jester25 @TyranoDoom30

@Migue79 @Starter_Pack @Chaos Jester25 @TyranoDoom30

 

[TyranoDoom30]

However, I believe this is a hyperbolic quote, as the text states that you, as the player, will be saving individuals trapped in space, and they obviously reference the fact that space is vast by using the word infinity to emphasize how important is your mission to save these lives.

There is no reason to say it's a hyperbole when it's just describing the open and vast nature of space, not the mission, along with the lack of any word that might be seen as hyperbole. Additionally, there's another scan that calls the universe "infinitely expansive" that was used in the same CRT

Furthermore, the battle between Duo and the Dark Energy took place at the edge of the universe according to Rockman 8's Daizukan, which wouldn't make sense if the universe were infinite.

This is not stated at all. It is just stated that they were at the "farthest reaches" of it aka the farthest they could go which we assume it's the distance to the edge of the observable universe. The kanji also implies it's a distance impossible to achieve despite the fact this is an universe where characters consistenly observe the universe, outside solar systems and galaxies, which could imply they surpassed infinity and the feat would be Infinite

These points were also made in the CRTs involving the universe and we agreed it didn't really downgraded the likely rating

 

[Maestro_Churches]

There is no reason to say it's a hyperbole when it's just describing the open and vast nature of space, not the mission, along with the lack of any word that might be seen as hyperbole.

This is a casual quote extolling the importance of the mission to save lives in space; the "infinity" may well have been used to emphasize how vast space is. This is a very weak justification for wanting to place the franchise's characters at infinite speeds, when all the dozens of feats point to the exact opposite.

Additionally, there's an another scan that calls the universe "infinitely expansive" that was used in the same CRT

This is not the same as an infinite universe. If anything, it only argues in favor of the Mega Man universe being the same as ours, instead of actually infinite in size.

This is not stated at all. It is just stated that they were at the "farthest reaches" of it aka the farthest they could go which we assume it's the distance to the edge of the observable universe. The kanji also implies it's a distance impossible to achieve despite the fact this is an universe where characters consistenly observe the universe, outside solar systems and galaxies, which could imply they surpassed infinity and the feat would be Infinite

There is no evidence for any distinction between "observable universe" and the supposedly infinite space "beyond it". Duo and the Evil Energy were at the edge ("farthest reach", in other words) of the universe, described as 大宇宙 ("macrocosm" or "greater universe"), meaning it's the entire scope of the universe. Yet their battle takes place at finite speeds, enough for Dr. Light to detect their presence in space approaching the Earth in real time.

The かなた does not mean anything related to "unreachable", but beyond; across; the other side; distance. The dictionary used to say that it's an "unreachable distance" doesn't even have to do with distance, but with the fact that something is separating another thing, thus it cannot be reached:

１ 話し手・聞き手の双方から離れた場所・方向をさす。また、現在から遠く離れた過去・未来を示す。あちら。あっち。「—の山」「忘却の—」

２ ある物に隔てられて見えない場所・側などをさす。向こうがわ。「山の—」「海の—の国」

1. Refers to a place or direction far from both the speaker and the listener. Also indicates the past or future far away from the present. Over there. "The mountain of -" " The forgotten -"

2. Refers to a place or side that is separated by something and cannot be seen. The other side. "The mountain side" "The sea side"

In this case, there is nothing separating the (greater) universe where Duo and EE were fighting, which was in its farthest reach - implying a limit and therefore not being infinite in size.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

This is a casual quote extolling the importance of the mission to save lives in space

This is not said in the slightest at all. It's simply making a question wherever they (the player) can truly save all the guys in space, which is described as infinite. There's zero contradictions to this statement as well and yet again zero reason to say it's hyperbole when it's ignoring what an actual hyperbole is actually like. Prove it's purposely a hyperbole (It isn't).

the "infinity" may well have been used to emphasize how vast space is

So descriptive. This is not an argument.

This is a very weak justification for wanting to place the franchise's characters at infinite speeds, when all the dozens of feats point to the exact opposite.

Feat consistency doesn't mean anything. If we go by that logic Infinite speed DB Toei is bunk because the characters have more MFTL+ feats than Infinite ones. Unless they have anti-feats, they are scaling to those levels.

This is not the same as an infinite universe. If anything, it only argues in favor of the Mega Man universe being the same as ours, instead of actually infinite in size.

It literally is.

Duo and the Evil Energy were at the edge ("farthest reach", in other words) of the universe, described as 大宇宙 ("macrocosm" or "greater universe"), meaning it's the entire scope of the universe.

Then this just means they are beyond the observable universe and fighting across the entirety of an infinite sized space. Yet again, "farthest reaches" ≠ edge. You have to prove that up. The fact they even call it the greater universe instead of just universe clearly implies a distinction, specially since they are two completely separated guidebooks with their own words, the "Dai Uchū" is never once used in reference to the edge

Yet their battle takes place at finite speeds, enough for Dr. Light to detect their presence in space approaching the Earth in real time.

Or they are Infinite speed and Light's technology is that good.

The かなた does not mean anything related to "unreachable", but beyond; across; the other side; distance. The dictionary used to say that it's an "unreachable distance" doesn't even have to do with distance, but with the fact that something is separating another thing, thus it cannot be reached

I don't feel like this debunks anything, if anything it actually futher provides that they flew straight up to infinity (Greater Universe) that is on other side (one of the definitions), and there is something separating it and the normal universe, therefore, the feat should still be Infinite and doesn't contradict an infinite sized universe in the slightest. Also if you ask me the Xtreme feat should be Immeasurable but that is another question for another day.

As i've said, these arguments have already been presented and we agreed the likely infinite universe size still remains

 

[Maestro_Churches]

This is not said in the slightest at all. It's simply making a question wherever they (the player) can truly save all the guys in space, which is described as infinite. There's zero contradictions to this statement as well and yet again zero reason to say it's hyperbole when it's ignoring what an actual hyperbole is actually like. Prove it's purposely a hyperbole (It isn't).

It is an implication. Mega Man: Space Rescue takes place in space and you go out to save the people in there, so it's obvious that in something like a website they will magnify the space by calling it infinite, to emphasize the importance of the mission.

Feat consistency doesn't mean anything.

They do, and are pretty much a key point on this wiki. No one here would upgrade a MHS+ manga character to Infinite Speed based on a single, vague feat, ignoring the countless others that put him below that level.

If we go by that logic Infinite speed DB Toei is bunk because the characters have more MFTL+ feats than Infinite ones. Unless they have anti-feats, they are scaling to those levels.

I agree, Infinite Speed DB is stupid and shouldn't even be a thing. They have anti-feats for that as well, but DB is not relevant to this thread.

It literally is.

It's not. The word used is hirogaru (広がる), which means to spread (out); to extend; to stretch; to reach to; to get around; to fill (e.g. a space). What this means is that by converting the word from Japanese to English, we have a gerund phrase, which in turn means that the guide is not saying that the universe is literally infinite in size, but it's expanding infinitely (i.e without an end). Something that is expanding is something that is constantly growing, not something that is already big (in this case, infinite).

I found particularly funny that the guy in your capture said that the kanji means spread/extended and not expand, despite the fact that these words are synonyms.

Then this just means they are beyond the observable universe and fighting across the entirety of an infinite sized space.

This is begging the question. No evidence for that.

Yet again, "farthest reaches" ≠ edge. You have to prove that up.

Cambridge Dictionary:

Edge
noun
the outer or furthest point of something

"Farthest reaches" implies you cannot go beyond, i.e the limit of something. Edge is precisely the limit of any given structure. This is a basic thing.

The fact they even call it the greater universe instead of just universe clearly implies a distinction, specially since they are two completely separated guidebooks with their own words, the "Dai Uchū" is never once used in reference to the edge

This is irrelevant, and a double standard as well. If you're going to dismiss the argument because the 大宇宙 is not used in both guides, then you can pretty much throw out of the window the idea of Duo/EE crossing the universe, because the 大宇宙 from the guide was precisely used to prove that the 宇宙 from the other guide refers to universe instead of simply space:

I’ll start this part by saying that all translations that use “universe” should be more accurate than the ones that use “space”. Why? Because of the following scan below from the Rockman 8 Metal Heroes Hisshouhou Special

In other words, they are being treated as the same thing. Moreover, 大宇宙 is also a synonym of simply "the universe", but obviously meant to represent its entire scope. This is a direct counter of the idea of "edge of the observable universe", when there is no evidence for that.

It's even more funny because your argument implies that the writers of the Rockman 8 Metal Heroes guide know that the MM universe is bigger than ours (hence the supossedly reason why they used 大宇宙 instead of 宇宙), even though 大宇宙 is always used to represent our normal universe, but in its entire scope.

Weblio's definition of 大宇宙:

《macrocosm》宇宙そのもの。人間と宇宙とに類比関係があると考える立場から、人間を小宇宙とするのに対していう。

《macrocosm》The universe itself. It is used in contrast to considering humans as a microcosm, based on the idea that there is an analogical relationship between humans and the universe.

This is a reference to the Microcosm–macrocosm analogy, where humans are the microcosm, and our universe/cosmos as a whole is the macrocosm. Therefore, yes, the guide is talking about the limit of the entire universe, its edge/farthest reach.

Or they are Infinite speed and Light's technology is that good.

They are not. The entire point of the scene is them taking their time approaching the Earth and Light noticing that. Infinite Speed means that Duo would already reach the Earth and Light himself wouldn't have noticed it. And to think his technology can detect infinite speeds despite Space Rush clearly taking time to cross interstellar distances is iffy, to say the least.

This doesn't debunk anything, if anything it actually futher provides that they flew straight up to infinity (Greater Universe) that is on other side (one of the definitions), and there is something separating it and the normal universe, therefore, the feat should still be Infinite and doesn't contradict an infinite sized universe in the slightest.

There is nothing suggesting a separation, you're making that up. 大宇宙 and 宇宙 are being used as synonyms.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

It is an implication. Mega Man: Space Rescue takes place in space and you go out to save the people in there, so it's obvious that in something like a website they will magnify the space by calling it infinite, to emphasize the importance of the mission.

Why the hell would it be a purposeful hyperbole? If it's clearly descriptive and no source ever clearly implies it's hyperbole, then Occam's Razor says that the statement is saying the universe is infinite, no if's or but's. If it's used to describe the vastness of space and NOT the mission (the former), then yes space is infinite. Saying it's being used to describe the size of space but saying it's actually not is one big of an oxymoron.

They do, and are pretty much a key point on this wiki

But not for this

No one here would upgrade a MHS+ manga character to Infinite Speed based on a single, vague feat, ignoring the countless others that put him below that level.

This is straight up NOT how speed actually works. If we go by this logic millions of other verses would also have to be downgraded. Obviously they aren't because this is just not how speed scaling or AP scaling works. Prove it's an outlier with anti-feats. If the MHS+ character has no anti-feats (Like a statement where they cap at Mach 3), then he is Infinite.

I agree, Infinite Speed DB is stupid and shouldn't even be a thing. They have anti-feats for that as well

They don't, and neither does Mega Man.

It's not. The word used is hirogaru (広がる), which means to spread (out); to extend; to stretch; to reach to; to get around; to fill (e.g. a space). What this means is that by converting the word from Japanese to English, we have a gerund phrase, which in turn means that the guide is not saying that the universe is literally infinite in size, but it's expanding infinitely (i.e without an end). Something that is expanding is something that is constantly growing, not something that is already big (in this case, infinite).

This is literally the same argument that has already been addressed in both the infinite universe Mega Man and Dragon Ball threads. The scan i posted is from a natural japanese speaker, and it's straight up infinity. Other translators agree as well.

This is begging the question. No evidence for that.

Read the scans again.

"Farthest reaches" implies you cannot go beyond, i.e the limit of something. Edge is precisely the limit of any given structure. This is a basic thing.

the most distant or remote point that can be reached or affected by something, whether physically, metaphorically, or figuratively

Nope.

This is irrelevant, and a double standard as well

It isn't and it's absolutely relevant if they make that clear distinction.

If you're going to dismiss the argument because the 大宇宙 is not used in both guides, then you can pretty much throw out of the window the idea of Duo/EE crossing the universe, because the 大宇宙 from the guide was precisely used to prove that the 宇宙 from the other guide refers to universe instead of simply space:

Nah, the Daizukan still says Duo and ER fought across the universe and is also extremely consistent with his lore. It still doesn't dismiss the other guide where they clearly say they were on the Outside Universe (Remember, another translation is "Beyond the Universe"). For them to reach Earth from the Outside Universe would still be Infinite speed. "Uchū" also generally means universe rather than space.

In other words, they are being treated as the same thing. Moreover, 大宇宙 is also a synonym of simply "the universe", but obviously meant to represent its entire scope

No, it's more than that. "Dai" means great, implying it's even greater than just "Uchū", which just generally means universe. If they meant just in the sense of "whole universe" then "zen uchū" would be more appropiate.

This is a reference to the Microcosm–macrocosm analogy, where humans are the microcosm, and our universe/cosmos as a whole is the macrocosm. Therefore, yes, the guide is talking about the limit of the entire universe, its edge/farthest reach.

Read above points.

They are not.

They are.

The entire point of the scene is them taking their time approaching the Earth and Light noticing that

Humans in Mega Man are nothing like real life ones. This is an old man who can use Hadouken.

Infinite Speed means that Duo would already reach the Earth and Light himself wouldn't have noticed it.

Cinematic timing. This is on the same level as "Kratos takes time to do stuff in gameplay hence he isn't Infinite". Straight up horrendeous argumentation.

And to think his technology can detect infinite speeds despite Space Rush clearly taking time to cross interstellar distances is iffy, to say the least.

Same as above.

There is nothing suggesting a separation, you're making that up. 大宇宙 and 宇宙 are being used as synonyms

Then they wouldn't have used "Dai Uchū". Read above points, again.

As i've said, these arguments have already been presented and we agreed the likely infinite universe size still remains

 

[Maestro_Churches]

Why the hell would it be a purposeful hyperbole? If it's clearly descriptive and no source ever clearly implies it's hyperbole, then Occam's Razor says that the statement is saying the universe is infinite, no if's or but's. If it's used to describe the vastness of space and NOT the mission (the former), then yes space is infinite

There's nothing to prevent this from being hyperbole either, and it being used within the context of explaining the game's mission (which in itself already disproves your nonsense that it has nothing to do with the mission) should already be enough to doubt it. The internal coherence of the plot suggests that none of these characters have infinite speed, so using such a vague "infinity" quote to prove it is meaningless.

Hyperbolic quotes have nothing to do with Occam's Razor anyway.

But not for this

"Because yes". Not an argument.

This is straight up NOT how speed actually works. If we go by this logic millions of other verses would also have to be downgraded. Obviously they aren't because this is just not how speed scaling or AP scaling works. Prove it's an outlier with anti-feats

Explain how speed "works", then.

They don't, and neither does Mega Man.

They do, but I guess if I show them, the excuse will be: "Game cinematic, PIS, plot, outlier", but appareantly, using an quote from a dead website to upscale the feat of another series is somehow valid and objective proof. Lmao.

This is literally the same argument that has already been addressed in both the infinite universe Mega Man and Dragon Ball threads. The scan i posted is from a natural japanese speaker, and it's straight up infinity. Other translators agree as well.

You are ignoring the entire argument and appealing to authority, how should I take you seriously? The Reddit people said it's infinite, but the infinite context is the universe expanding without end, so it doesn't matter. And again, expanding and extending are synonyms.

Read the scans again.

This is not an argument.

the most distant or remote point that can be reached or affected by something, whether physically, metaphorically, or figuratively

Nope.

This doesn't debunk anything. Edge = furthest point (i.e furthest reaches of something). Reply the actual sources instead of ignoring them.

It isn't and it's absolutely relevant if they make that clear distinction.
Nah, the Daizukan still says Duo and ER fought across the universe and is also extremely consistent with his lore. From them to reach Earth from the Outside Universe would still be Infinite speed.
No, it's more than that. "Dai" means great, implying it's even greater than just "Uchū", which just generally means universe. If they meant just in the sense of "whole universe" then "zen uchū" would be more appropiate.

This pretty much ignores the entire Weblio japanese dictionary explaining the definition of 大宇宙, which is "the universe itself". The "Greater" in "Greater Universe" is not used to distinct "universe from greater universe", but to distinct microcosm (small universe within humans) and macrocosm (the actual universe).

Read above points.

Again, this is not an argument.

They are.
Humans in Mega Man are nothing like real life ones. This is an old man who can use Hadouken.
Cinematic timing. This is on the same level as "Kratos takes time to do stuff in gameplay hence he isn't Infinite", straight up horrendeous.
Same as above.

Yes, because showing the characters limitations in real time through cutscene, the same thing used to grant their feats (as here with Duo), is wrong. The only thing horrendeous here is that lame excuse. There is no internal coherence in your arguments the moment you are indirectly implying that Light has infinite speed, or even bringing Kratos here (a character with 400+ anti-feats that legitimately occurred in the story, in fact, they are more present in the canonical books than in the games themselves, and there is no way to have gameplay mechanics in something non-audiovisual). It's a canonical plot point that Rock takes time to travel between planets using Space Rush, and no contortionism will deny that.

Should I bring all the guide quotes implying several limitations on both speed and power of the Robot Masters for you to realize how stupid and convenient your logic is?

Then they wouldn't have used "Dai Uchū". Read above points, again.

How about you read the actual sources calling 大宇宙 the same as 宇宙, instead of being ignorant?

 

[TyranoDoom30]

There's nothing to prevent this from being hyperbole either, and it being used within the context of explaining the game's mission (which in itself already disproves your nonsense that it has nothing to do with the mission)

What are you even talking about? It has zero nothing to do in describing the missions and instead is describing the location of where the mission takes place, that is space. Again, you'd have to prove that it's purposely hyperbolic instead of simply just describing the nature of space There is zero reason people would say it's hyperbolic, and only powerscalers who see a blatant statement and yet still think it is something else (oxymoron) will see it as hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic quotes have nothing to do with Occam's Razor anyway.

Actually, they do. Occam's razor says it's not hyperbolic, thus it's valid.

"Because yes". Not an argument

Either you abide by the standards or don't argue it then

Explain how speed "works", then.

Read the speed page, read the power scaling page, read the PIS page, read the CT page and read the outlier page as well.

They do, but I guess if I show them, the excuse will be: "Game cinematic, PIS, plot, outlier", but appareantly, using an quote from a dead website to upscale the feat of another series is somehow valid and objective proof

If it's said by Capcom, then it's word of god aka the most authorative source on the series; and unless they later disagree with it, the statement still counts.

You are ignoring the entire argument and appealing to authority, how should I take you seriously? The Reddit people said it's infinite, but the infinite context is the universe expanding without end,

Prove that in-context of the scan it's refering to it infinitely expanding instead of being straight up infinite. I'm also gonna trust a native japanese speaker who actually grew up and understands the language than a non-speaker

. And again, expanding and extending are synonyms.

"Expansive" is already definitive, which is what the scan means.

This doesn't debunk anything. Edge = furthest point (i.e furthest reaches of something). Reply the actual sources instead of ignoring them.

the most distant or remote point that can be reached or affected by something, whether physically, metaphorically, or figuratively

Nope.

This pretty much ignores the entire Weblio japanese dictionary explaining the definition of 大宇宙, which is "the universe itself". The "Greater" in "Greater Universe" is not used to distinct "universe from greater universe", but to distinct microcosm (small universe within humans) and macrocosm (the actual universe).

Thanks for proving what i'm saying

Again, this is not an argument.

Read above points.

The only thing horrendeous here is that lame excuse. There is no internal coherence in your arguments the moment you are indirectly implying that Light has infinite speed

Ok, and? Again, this is an old man who can use Hadouken. Ad incredulum.

a character with 400+ anti-feats that legitimately occurred in the story,

Yep, knew it. Reminder that the wikia doesn't work like or likes r/whowouldwin level argumentations.

It's a canonical plot point that Rock takes time to travel between planets using Space Rush, and no contortionism will deny that.

Because he can't fly. Also, he literally teleports between planets in V. It's literally impossible to show a character actually going by their actual speed on screen.

Should I bring all the guide quotes implying several limitations on both speed and power of the Robot Masters for you to realize how stupid and convenient your logic is?

Which are automatically debunked by either simple explanations or by consistent higher feats that debunks them

How about you read the actual sources calling 大宇宙 the same as 宇宙, instead of being ignorant?

I did, and there's a distinction.

 

[AlloyAmi]

disagree with the statements of it being infinite being a hyperbole, its just talking about the vastness of space and theres also another guidebook statement where a translator says its basically saying the universe is infinite.

the duo thing thing would just be a writers inconsistency as obviously they arent keeping track of something like that as its not important.

this is moreso a wiki issue tbh but i think infinite speed just simply isnt scrutinized enough as it doesnt work for a shit ton of characters in a narrative sense, but yeah the entire timeline is very clearly bound by time with zeros final fight in zero 4 at his peak literally having a countdown timer. there are multiple things that you can argue as immeasurable by extending to multiple space times such as sigma and the mother elves rewriting but id again just chalk it up as an outlier and use the lower finite ends.

so yeah i do agree with its removal in the sense of consistent speed feats in the series and narrative but it should still be good for cosmology stuff.

regarding that mother elf calc, that is a very blatant calc stack with that insane value of ftl perception reploids being included. realistically the calc should use the amount of frames it took to do it as shown in the video,and i counted 7 frames. sigmas abilities are also pretty much that of a cyber elf so this calc should just be very similar in scale to the mother computer one, along with proof that they can affect multiple worlds at once at cyber elves work in the zero 4 cyberspace, similar to sigma affecting the multiple cyberspaces at once.

the galaxy timeframe id be fine with if the manual wasnt so contradictory such as stating blatantly incorrect things such as the reploid wars going on for centuries so i wouldnt use that either and it being confined to earth kinda just makes more sense especially with how they only just go to the moon in x8 though i will say sigma has a far heavier influence and spread in cyberworlds then the real world.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

regarding that mother elf calc, that is a very blatant calc stack with that insane value of ftl perception reploids being included. realistically the calc should use the amount of frames it took to do it as shown in the video,and i counted 7 frames. sigmas abilities are also pretty much that of a cyber elf so this calc should just be very similar in scale to the mother computer one, along with proof that they can affect multiple worlds at once at cyber elves work in the zero 4 cyberspace, similar to sigma

Same opinion in this

 

[AlloyAmi]

forgot to say this but realistically the mother elf should have a calc of them doing that flash to multiple worlds on a universal scale because it should not be inferior to sigma who already does that in the x era alone

 

[Maestro_Churches]

What are you even talking about? It has zero nothing to do in describing the missions and instead is describing the location of where the mission takes place, that is space. Again, you'd have to prove that it's purposely hyperbolic instead of simply just describing the nature of space There is zero reason people would say it's hyperbolic, and only powerscalers who see a blatant statement and yet still think it is something else (oxymoron) will see it as hyperbolic.

Yes, they describe where the mission takes place, and as such, exalts it with the "infinite" word to give greater importance to the place where the mission occurs, which is my entire point.

Actually, they do. Occam's razor says it's not hyperbolic, thus it's valid.

Wrong, the two are completely unrelated. If any textbook says something like "he eats so much that he could eat a person!", this will be interpreted (obviously) as an hyperbole, instead of taking at face value that the person in question can eat an entire human being literally. Hyperbolic quotes demand basic interpretation from the reader. No Occam's razor example admits hyperbole.

Either you abide by the standards or don't argue it then
Read the speed page, read the power scaling page, read the PIS page, read the CT page and read the outlier page as well.

The outlier page debunks your entire logic, so I don't know what you're even talking about.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

The jump from finite speed to infinite speed is... infinite.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

It's one (two, if stretching) quote about the size of the universe, and another one or two feats from other series entirely. The characters here also have several feats placing them at finite speeds.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.

They are not only contradicted by the guide saying the universe has an edge/furthest point, but also by the fact that all previous and posterior feats are bound by time.

Prove that in-context of the scan it's refering to it infinitely expanding instead of being straight up infinite. I'm also gonna trust a native japanese speaker who actually grew up and understands the language than a non-speaker

I already did, hirogaru means to spread (out); to extend; to stretch; to reach to; to get around; to fill (e.g. a space) according to Jinsho, which is arguably the most reliable japanese dictionary when it comes to translate japanese words to english. The quote forms a geround phrase, which forms the word "expanding". The second part is, again, appeal to authority.

Thanks for proving what i'm saying

I didn't "prove" your point. You said there is a distinction between "Universe" and "Greater Universe", and used that to "prove" that the edge quote (which you never debunked) is talking about an "observable universe" (which is never even mentioned). However, I showed that the distinction comes from the fact that "Greater Universe" (Macrocosm) refers to our normal standard universe in its totality, a distinction with Microcosm, which refers to the small, inner universe inside humans. The Weblio dictionary states it balantly:

《macrocosm》宇宙そのもの。人間と宇宙とに類比関係があると考える立場から、人間を小宇宙とするのに対していう。

《macrocosm》The universe itself. It is used in contrast to considering humans as a microcosm, based on the idea that there is an analogical relationship between humans and the universe.

So yes, 大宇宙 and 宇宙 are the same thing, but the first is used to distinct itself from microcosm and/or to directly refer to universe, while the second can be either universe or space. The guide is still talking about the universe having an edge.

Ok, and? Again, this is an old man who can use Hadouken. Ad incredulum.

This is irrelevant for the topic. Implying Dr. Light having infinite speed is not a strecth because "he can use Hadouken" is insanely stupid. Again: do I really need to bring all the guide quotes placing the characters with several limitations for you to realize how bad your logic is?

Yep, knew it. Reminder that the wikia doesn't work like or likes r/whowouldwin level argumentations.

So you're not going to counter the argument here. Concession accepted.

Because he can't fly. Also, he literally teleports between planets in V. It's literally impossible to show a character actually going by their actual speed on screen.

So? If you're saying that his techonology can track infinite speeds, then Space Rush should also be moving at those speeds, which is contradicted by the entire plot of it taking time in crossing distance A to B, which is not even limited to "game cinematic" but narrative as well.

Which are automatically debunked by either simple explanations or by consistent higher feats that debunks them

Yes, and the same thing applies: if you are using a single piece of information, far-strecthed for the series, to give them infinite speeds, then one can do the exact same thing by using several pieces of information, far-low for the series, to give them lower than MFTL speeds. Your logic is convenient and only counts when it's to bring the characters at ridiculous levels, so there is no impartiality, only bias.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Yes, they describe where the mission takes place, and as such, exalts it with the "infinite" word to give greater importance to the place where the mission occurs, which is my entire point.

It has zero nothing to do in describing the missions and instead is describing the location of where the mission takes place, that is space. Again, you'd have to prove that it's purposely hyperbolic instead of simply just describing the nature of space

There is zero reason people would say it's hyperbolic, and only powerscalers who see a blatant statement and yet still think it is something else (oxymoron) will see it as hyperbolic.

any textbook says something like "he eats so much that he could eat a person!", this will be interpreted (obviously) as an hyperbole, instead of taking at face value that the person in question can eat an entire human being literally. Hyperbolic quotes demand basic interpretation from the reader. No Occam's razor example admits hyperbole.

And here isn't a hyperbole and there's zero reason to believe so, so Occam's razor applies.

The jump from finite speed to infinite speed is... infinite

Unless they have anti-feats to contradict it, it's valid. And they don't.

It's one (two, if stretching) quote about the size of the universe, and another one or two feats from other series entirely. The characters here also have several feats placing them at finite speeds.

Same as above. And

This is straight up NOT how speed actually works. If we go by this logic millions of other verses would also have to be downgraded. Obviously they aren't because this is just not how speed scaling or AP scaling works

They are not only contradicted by the guide saying the universe has an edge/furthest point

the most distant or remote point that can be reached or affected by something, whether physically, metaphorically, or figuratively

Nope

I already did, hirogaru means to spread (out); to extend; to stretch; to reach to; to get around; to fill (e.g. a space) according to Jinsho, which is arguably the most reliable japanese dictionary when it comes to translate japanese words to english. The quote forms a geround phrase, which forms the word "expanding". The second part is, again, appeal to authority.

This is literally the same argument that has already been addressed in both the infinite universe Mega Man and Dragon Ball threads. The scan i posted is from a natural japanese speaker, and it's straight up infinity. Other translators agree as well.

Ad nauseam. It's also up to you that a native japanese speaker is wrong in his own language.

I didn't "prove" your point. You said there is a distinction between "Universe" and "Greater Universe", and used that to "prove" that the edge quote (which you never debunked) is talking about an "observable universe" (which is never even mentioned). However, I showed that the distinction comes from the fact that "Greater Universe" (Macrocosm) refers to our normal standard universe in its totality, a distinction with Microcosm, which refers to the small, inner universe inside humans. The Weblio dictionary states it balantly:

No, it's more than that. "Dai" means great, implying it's even greater than just "Uchū", which just generally means universe. If they meant just in the sense of "whole universe" then "zen uchū" would be more appropiate.

So yes, 大宇宙 and 宇宙 are the same thing, but the first is used to distinct itself from microcosm and/or to directly refer to universe

You realize you just seppuku'd your argument with this, right?

This is irrelevant for the topic. Implying Dr. Light having infinite speed is not a strecth because "he can use Hadouken" is insanely stupid. Again: do I really need to bring all the guide quotes placing the characters with several limitations for you to realize how bad your logic is?

Stop with the ad incredulum. Both Wily and Light have shown feats that are by themselves far beyond what a real life human can do in very much anything. If Capcom thinks Light has reaction speed that fast, then so be it. Your argument relies on absolute fcking nothingess that only a non powerscaler would buy that ignores the blatant feats and statements for agenda making and

Which are automatically debunked by either simple explanations or by consistent higher feats that debunks them

So you're not going to counter the argument here.

I don't have to if the wikia already trashed them LOATS of times lmfao. You clearly have no idea how outliers and feats work from the looks of it. If the characters were that fast and strong in gameplay it would be impossible to show due to limitations and story stakes.

So? If you're saying that his techonology can track infinite speeds, then Space Rush should also be moving at those speeds, which is contradicted by the entire plot of it taking time in crossing distance A to B, which is not even limited to "game cinematic" but narrative as well.

There is zero narrative going on here. You made that shit up. Cinematic time is also the explanation. It's

literally impossible to show a character actually going by their actual speed on screen.

Yes

Concession accepted.

and the same thing applies: if you are using a single piece of information, far-strecthed for the series, to give them infinite speeds, then one can do the exact same thing by using several pieces of information, far-low for the series, to give them lower than MFTL speeds

Except those information are contradicted by the higher feats. Infinite speed isn't contradicted by anything and you could make a case for Immeasurable

Your logic is convenient and only counts when it's to bring the characters at ridiculous levels, so there is no impartiality, only bias

Except if the data says that they are that fast, then it overrides the dogma.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

Not wasting any more time with this ad nauseam nonsense. "If they meant just in the sense of "whole universe" then "zen uchū" would be more appropiate" yet ignores the very dictionary that calls 大宇宙 the whole universe. Negationism =/= argument.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Sextillions C​

With that in mind, the highest calculated speed feat, as shown above, was Quintillions C, but I think it's possible to bring it to the next level: Sextillions C.

The feat I'll be using for that is Mother Elf killing the Sigma Virus in an instant, which was calculated as Billions C assuming that the distance covered was that of the Earth's surface to the moon (434,996,000 meters) and the timeframe being 0.00000000291 seconds.

The timeframe is correct, but the distance covered is potentially bigger, as in Mega Man X5's manual, it is implied that the Sigma Virus covered the entire galaxy:

Using now the distance of 100.000 light years, we would get 100.000 LY / (0.00000000291 seconds) = 1.0844724914093392e+21 C or 1.084 sextillion times faster than light. Calculation done here.

Is there any problem with this feat?​

Honestly, the information about the Sigma Virus covering the galaxy is from the US MMX5 manual; I never find that in any original JP material. So, if it's truly not present in the original source of the series (Japan), it might just be "non-canon" or completely useless, but I would like to hear the thoughts of the people here, if it can be used or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to it as long as nothing contradicts the Sigma Virus covering the galaxy. Not sure how you'll even scale the X era characters to Sextillions though since that's a Mother Elf feat. Worst case it's good MMZ speed buffs.

I'm also actually personally fine with Infinite speeds as there's a few scans saying the universe is infinite and that there's flat-out "unreachable" parts of the universe but that's not my place to argue. Not like a "likely" or "possibly" rating is super harmful or anything, either, since it's speculative in nature. There's a lot of gray area within the whole "infinite universe" thing.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Following.