The Short Awaited Hazbin Hotel Season 2 Downgrade (Part 1. "The only way I know how… SONG!”)

[StrymULTRA]

I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but it still doesn't prove everyone was contributing equally, or that this is something they could just do on a whim.

Actually we do have a precendent of splitting a feat equally regardless of how strong the parties are compared to each other.

 

[Mythic381]

I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but it still doesn't prove everyone was contributing equally,

No one is arguing that they're contributing equally. Argument is that they'd contribute to be somewhere around the tier. Otherwise the point of them being amped by the song would've been totally useless.

or that this is something they could just do on a whim.

The WoG does address that idea.

“Hear My Hope” is the first song in the show that really explicitly taps into something that's alluded to throughout [the show], about music and power.

It's the first shown that's shown their capability to do that.

 

[FinePoint]

Actually we do have a precendent of splitting a feat equally regardless of how strong the parties are compared to each other.

Okay, well I don't like that precedent. It doesn't make sense. I was under the impression we treated fused attacks as their own thing unless explicitly told otherwise.

No one is arguing that they're contributing equally. Argument is that they'd contribute to be somewhere around the tier. Otherwise the point of them being amped by the song would've been totally useless.

They may not even be contributing in energy. Could be stabilization. Moral Support. Some obscure concept of music. Friendship.

But regardless, we can't just assume their energy outputs are anywhere near the same since they're regularly not portrayed as anywhere near equal.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

For all we know it was 99.9% Emily and she just needed the emotional support.

I dunno, the size of the shield does seem to reflect its strength and the no-name Overlords would've had to contribute a hefty amount to make it jump from 20% complete to 70% when they joined in. We also do have a section of the song where Charlie and Emily together admit they can't do it alone too.

 

[Mythic381]

They may not even be contributing in energy. Could be stabilization. Moral Support. Some obscure concept of music. Friendship.

The WoG is directly saying they were contributing in power.

“Hear My Hope” is the first song in the show that really explicitly taps into something that's alluded to throughout [the show], about music and power.

There are implications in [this song] that these characters' voices and these characters' music give them power. “Hear My Hope” is the first example we've seen explicitly of these people's power being manifested through song to achieve an end.

The idea that music has power is very straightforward on an emotional level, and it's very fun to have a property that treats it not just as emotionally powerful, but as something that will affect the physical world.

But regardless, we can't just assume their energy outputs are anywhere near the same since they're regularly not portrayed as anywhere near equal.

I agree that we can't, but this feat is basically a whole different thing from the normal. This is explicitly a feat where we know there's an amp going on helping them do it.

 

[FinePoint]

I dunno, the size of the shield does seem to reflect its strength and the no-name Overlords would've had to contribute a hefty amount to make it jump from 20% complete to 70% when they joined in. We also do have a section of the song where Charlie and Emily together admit they can't do it alone too.

That really doesn't change anything. How do you know 99.9% of the energy isn't in starting the spell, and arranging the shield isn't just the last 0.1% of effort, and Emily tragically fell just short?

How would Charlie and Emily even know that for sure? Do they have some sixth sense I don't know about? How did Rosie know they needed Alastor's help? How did any of the Overlords know they were actually contributing anything? How do we know they weren't mostly contributing something obscure? Sometimes I need help carrying something because it's too wide I don't have enough hands, not because it's too heavy.

In a cloud of mysterious bullshit, I find it unreasonable to somehow assume they all scale near Lucifer despite having a number of more direct feats.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That really doesn't change anything. How do you know 99.9% of the energy isn't in starting the spell, and arranging the shield isn't just the last 0.1% of effort, and Emily tragically fell just short--

because with eleven other ******* joining in with magic, they STILL could not do it and required Alastor to help.

 

[StrymULTRA]

People, Fine has already conceded to us having it a precedent, this discussion is worthless.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Actually we do have a precendent of splitting a feat equally regardless of how strong the parties are compared to each other.

“For combination attacks, similar standards to multipliers apply. It should not be assumed that a combination attack performed by multiple characters has Attack Potency equal to the sum of the participating characters Attack Potency unless there is specific evidence for it.”

Multipliers

A multiplier is generally some number a different number is multiplied with to get a new number. For our VS Battles use we more specifically refer to a number as multiplier, if that number is multiplied with some statistic of a character or its attacks to get a new statistic for the character...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is literally in the very standards we have for combination attacks.


I don’t understand why you using a Naruto combination attack calculation for this specific part since I am pretty sure there was some discussion on that particular calculation.

Outside of that, I have no actual input on the CRT here

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In fact, now I think about it, here is the specific discussions regarding combination attacks here.

Multipliers - Clarifications and regulations

Hello, as you can see by the title of this thread this'll be going over the current. This is in regards to some inconsistents regarding on how we treat our multiplier standards. Going by the wiki page multipliers are only to be given out if they're outright stated, and here's the actual passage...

www.vsbattles.com

 

[FinePoint]

because with eleven other ******* joining in with magic, they STILL could not do it and required Alastor to help.

That still doesn't technically prove it. It could be that only with all those people and Alastor did they add up to 0.1% of Emily's power (in this theoretical, I'm not claiming any specific numbers here obviously).

 

[Phsccarvalho]

How are the votes going?

 

[Mythic381]

How are the votes going?

2 Mods voted for it to be an outlier.
And I'm confused on FinePoint's stance till now to be honest.

 

[FinePoint]

2 Mods voted for it to be an outlier.
And I'm confused on FinePoint's stance till now to be honest.

I agree on not using it to scale everyone.

 

[Mythic381]

I agree on not using it to scale everyone.

So what I'm getting here, everyone will just be removed from scaling to it even with WoG.

I guess this is concluded?

 

[Tank1418]

That still doesn't technically prove it. It could be that only with all those people and Alastor did they add up to 0.1% of Emily's power (in this theoretical, I'm not claiming any specific numbers here obviously).

Hey guys, I’m not here to vote , but I don’t think we can interpret it that way. In that situation, Emily was injured, so the amount of energy she released only formed about 10% of the barrier at most (and Charlie, Husk, and Niffty were helping as well). It’s worth noting that when the two ex-overlords joined in, the barrier started to become visibly clearer.


After that, six more overlords stepped in, expanding the barrier to cover roughly 30% of the cannon. Then Alastor and Rosie joined, which caused the barrier to become a complete 100% sphere and even lift upward. You can clearly see that Al and Ros’s power had a significant impact.


So I’d suggest scaling their power proportionally, something like:
(Char & Em) : (the 10 overlords) : (Ros & Al), or along those lines.


As for the context, if I remember correctly, that scene emphasized the unity of Hell’s citizens and showed that Hell does have a fair amount of power, which contradicts the old belief in HH Season 1 that Heaven was untouchable and immortal, and that Hell had no chance of winning or even surviving the exterminations.


To put it simply, the writer buffed the overlords of Hell (as representatives of Hell’s people) and nerfed Heaven and the Princess of Hell by injuring Emily and showing that Charlie still doesn’t fully know how to use her own power yet.

 

[Mythic381]

To put it simply, the writer buffed the overlords of Hell (as representatives of Hell’s people) and nerfed Heaven and the Princess of Hell by injuring Emily and showing that Charlie still doesn’t fully know how to use her own power yet.

You know, I have a small assumption that might be the point of the WoG for the song....

 

[Tank1418]

You know, I have a small assumption that might be the point of the WoG for the song....

"Grass is green"

 

[Saqphire]

I aint realise that Hazbin scaling would be this toxic, damn.

Agree with the CRT. Also, whatever "precedent" someone was talking about above is literally invalid lmao, just cuz Naruto has a calc like that, that doesn't mean that calc is necessarily valid either unless it's explicit and that calc would warrant a re-calc in that regard. Whataboutism aint it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Disagree FRA

 

[Thunderman101]

Disagree FRA

Its joever

 

[Tank1418]

I’m not trying to take anyone’s side. I just feel uncomfortable with it being treated as an outlier, even though it had its own purpose at the time . If anything should be downgraded, it would make more sense to downgrade the calculation of the cannon that fired at Heaven instead.

just cuz Naruto has a calc like that, that doesn't mean that calc is necessarily valid either unless it's explicit and that calc would warrant a re-calc in that regard.

I wasn’t even referring to Naruto at all. I was just sharing my opinion. Even if it means recalculating everything again , I think that would be better than just dividing it by 14 .

 

[DaReaperMan]

I aint realise that Hazbin scaling would be this toxic, damn.

Agree with the CRT. Also, whatever "precedent" someone was talking about above is literally invalid lmao, just cuz Naruto has a calc like that, that doesn't mean that calc is necessarily valid either unless it's explicit and that calc would warrant a re-calc in that regard. Whataboutism aint it.

So does Powerpuff Girls, so... yes, there is precedent for dividing feats by the people who do it.

 

[Saqphire]

So does Powerpuff Girls, so... yes, there is precedent for dividing feats by the people who do it.

Weren't the PPG explicitly said to be equal? Which is why I said "unless it's explicit" here.

I don't see anything that puts the 14 people in the HH calc to be all equal to each other, same with the Naruto calc

 

[DaReaperMan]

Weren't the PPG explicitly said to be equal? Which is why I said "unless it's explicit" here.

I don't see anything that puts the 14 people in the HH calc to be all equal to each other, same with the Naruto calc

In other words: You're inventing standards.

 

[Saqphire]

In other words: You're inventing standards.

Am I?

For combination attacks, similar standards to multipliers apply. It should not be assumed that a combination attack performed by multiple characters has Attack Potency equal to the sum of the participating characters Attack Potency unless there is specific evidence for it.

The PowerPuff Girls have specific evidence of them being equal. Neither calcs here do, so please quit the whataboutism here bro.

In fact, this division couldn't even be used because it would wildly contradict the multiplier standards, which combo attacks follow here, specifically because of these:

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

Lastly, multipliers will obviously only be used if they are not contradicted. A typical case of that would be if a character gets 10 times stronger, but fighters that were previously equal to it can still somehow keep up.

Not only is the division reasoned from anything other than statements, fourteen 9-A characters (or whatever tier these mfs are that is lower than 5-B that comes independently from this feat) somehow multiplying to 5-A is clearly a contradiction lmao. Not only that, the stated DC clearly doesn't match the calc results

 

[FinePoint]

So what I'm getting here, everyone will just be removed from scaling to it even with WoG.

I guess this is concluded?

Except Lucifer.

 

[ShionAH]

it would make more sense to downgrade the calculation of the cannon that fired at Heaven instead.

We just can't. Wdym? We'd have to... like lie to do that lol. It's a direct feat that cannot be put below like High 6-A+

 

[Mythic381]

Except Lucifer.

I mentioned before. Lucifer and people who directly scale to him shouldn't be affected by this being a downgrade.

Lucifer, Adam and rage-empowered Charlie. Alastor arguably, though I'm not sure if that's even accepted right now.

 

[Mythic381]

We just can't. Wdym? We'd have to... like lie to do that lol. It's a direct feat that cannot be put below like High 6-A+

Maybe Stonekillerz was right...

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

The only profiles that should be getting a change are the overlords and Shock.wav, Alastor could downscale Adam pretty reliably, and his weakened state should probably still scale to his casual low 7-C or even just the 8-A, which can be supported by how Shock.wav (an 8-B+) handles him

 

[ShionAH]

Alastor could downscale Adam pretty reliably

You need a CRT for this still.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

You need a CRT for this still.

I'll make one after this one, just to keep things clean and less confusing

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Well, shit. I was literally just in the process of finishing my updated CRT which has literally all of these same arguments.

Anyway yeah, Agreed FRA.

(P.S, I also apologize for disappearing on you all. Been busy with college mid-terms)

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Do not use Gunfire or falling as an anti-feat if you're not downgrading them to 9-C.

This has probably already been said, but I highly doubt that guns in Hell aren't significantly stronger than they are in the human world, given that it's already accepted that demons are considered "extra resilient".

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Also also, are we downgrading Lucifer/Adam too or do they still scale to the MoL?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also also, are we downgrading Lucifer/Adam too or do they still scale to the MoL?

Seems like they'll still scale.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Last thing I'll say. While I do agree with the downgrades, I still have many issues with some of the arguments in this thread. I'll be talking about them very in-depth soon.

 

[ShionAH]

Also also, are we downgrading Lucifer/Adam too or do they still scale to the MoL?

They wont be affected since they directly scale to the feat rather than needing Hear my Hope.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This has probably already been said, but I highly doubt that guns in Hell aren't significantly stronger than they are in the human world, given that it's already accepted that demons are considered "extra resilient".

The "extra resilient" thing is pretty explicitely talking about Sinners' regen/immortality rather than their durability.

They're also extra resilient, like you know, they get crushed and shot and beat up all the time and that doesn't really kill them (...) Like you just kinda can get messed up, and be okay. Right now I have it that the only way you can really die is by an angel.

We also have countless times where Hell guns fail to pierce through metal surfaces, so if there is a difference between them and human guns, it's not big.

Also also, are we downgrading Lucifer/Adam too or do they still scale to the MoL?

Lucifer still scales to MoL and everyone who scales to him directly does too. Here's what's changing exactly.

More or less.

The revised scaling is entirely anchored to Vox, whose rating after this revision is going to be "Varies; 9-A, up to 8-B"

The "Varies" is there cause his power is directly tied to his Approval rating, and as such fluctuates with it.

• 9-A comes from two feats he performs in his fight with W!Alastor. At this point, he’s far from his weakest, but it’s still before his ratings start to skyrocket later in S2.
• 8-B comes from Vox at his strongest shrugging off Shok.wav unintentionally hitting him with his tail, and just the movement of Shok.wav alone has been calced at 8-B.

Those who scale to 9-A and why

1. W!Alastor: While intentionally trying to lose, held his own against 9-A Vox and the other two Vees.
2. Valentino: Can harm Vox when his Approval rating was higher than during his 9-A feats.
3. Husk: Fought Valentino and could clash with him.
4. Cherri: Can harm and draw blood from Valentino.
5. Velvette: Relative to the other Vees but also fought and defeated Husk.
6. Nifty: Fought on par with Velvette.
7. The Exorcists (Lute and Vaggi): Are seen as invincible by Hell’s population, Overlords included, and it's believed that Angelic Weapons are required to kill them.
8. Carmilla Carmine: While her "fight" with Vaggi can be attributed to the fact she was smacking her with an Angelic Weapon, she's still one of the highest ranking Overlords, with enough authority to organize and end their meetings, so could see her getting "Likely 9-A"?
9. Maybe Angel Dust: Can spar with Cherri and knock her down, force Vox to exert effort to move his head and stop an Exorcist mid-swing with his Angelic Tommy Guns. Note his current rating is x20 below the 9-As.

Those who scale to 8-B and why

1. Shok.wav: Its originator.
2. W!Alastor's Demon Form: Held his own against 100% Approval Vox and his arm could withstand Shok.wav's bite.

Special Cases​

• Lucifer, Adam and Rage Charlie remain the same.
• Alastor drops to Low 7-C.
• The Sins, Emily and Base Charlie are completely featless, so they become Unknown.
• Pentious' physicals go to Unknown (Is repeatedly said to be weak and purely relies on his eggs and inventions for combat) while his inventions become "At least 9-A, possibly higher" cause Adam had no way of knowing if the Death Ray could hurt him or not.