Minor for some, major for others downgrade for Sonic speed

[Alexander]

They explicitly are under a time limit to complete a task which shouldn't be an issue if they have infinite speed, they can finish a task in 0 seconds, but narratively they don't complete the task in 0 seconds.

all of the infinite speed feats aren't even a time zero thing, they are a finite time vs infinite distance (but i just wanted to clarify anyway).
it is almost at the same level of a FTL character not being FTL because they don't do x in a short period of time, even when the feat has nothing to do with that (some)

 

[Maniaunavailable]

how exactly does this debunk inf speed super forms? (sorry if that is stoobid question me am dum sometime )

It’s a mid half debunk because 2006 onwards they still get inf-imm speed, it’s just that you can’t get infinite speed by just amping urself lol

 

[AlloyAmi]

Completely agree with infinite removal, and theres a multitude of other showings like Shadow you can bring up as well.

Since we are already on the topic of major removals, why don't we discuss the night palace feat? It comes from a prima guide that in almost certain does not meet the new canon standards based on approval, as its just a guide written by a random from the UK, with no real input from the actual devs/writers of the game themselves and evidentially so. It even gets major plot recap details wrong such as claiming Darkspine Sonic has 4 of the world Rings despite only having 3. It even gets the forms name wrong calling him "Darkspines" instead of just Darkspine.

Now regarding the claim of it being infinite, this is the corridor that supposedly "turns into an infinite space", not only is it just spatially expanding to where you can still literally see the exit, it only extended and is blocked by 3 gates that Sonic uses the Astral Plane to fix (shown in more extensive gameplay). I'm more included to believe it is a hyperbole rather then completely literal just to enhance the effect of the spatially extending corridor. Even if this were to be taken literally if the statement was completely reliable, it'll be more like infinitely expanding rather then an innately infinite space based in its portrayal in game. However I don't think the claim that its infinite is reliable at all based on what's shown in game along with the source of the statement itself, an unreliable prima guide that doesn't meet canon approval standards. I've even completely looked at a much more reliable Japanese Secret Rings Guide published by Shogakukan: Sonic to Himitsu no Ring Saikyou Kouryaku Guide, and I did not find any statement suggesting the same infinite size that the prima guide does. Therefore, this feat should be removed entirely.

 

[AyOgUyS]

It’s a mid half debunk because 2006 onwards they still get inf-imm speed, it’s just that you can’t get infinite speed by just amping urself lol

I just don't understand the arguments for pre-06 super forms being capped at finite speed

 

[AyOgUyS]

They explicitly are under a time limit to complete a task which shouldn't be an issue if they have infinite speed, they can finish a task in 0 seconds, but narratively they don't complete the task in 0 seconds.

so basically: super sonic beats mech in lets say 5 minutes, if he was rly inf speed, he could do it in 0 seconds. because the boss fight isn't 0 seconds, he cant be inf speed

 

[AlloyAmi]

so basically: super sonic beats mech in lets say 5 minutes, if he was rly inf speed, he could do it in 0 seconds. because the boss fight isn't 0 seconds, he cant be inf speed

essentially yes, but they also treat the time passing not just as a gameplay thing but as a big deal within major plot points, further iterating that they are bound by time narratively

 

[Alexander]

Completely agree with infinite removal, and theres a multitude of other showings like Shadow you can bring up as well.

Since we are already on the topic of major removals, why don't we discuss the night palace feat? It comes from a prima guide that in almost certain does not meet the new canon standards based on approval, as its just a guide written by a random from the UK, with no real input from the actual devs/writers of the game themselves and evidentially so. It even gets major plot recap details wrong such as claiming Darkspine Sonic has 4 of the world Rings despite only having 3. It even gets the forms name wrong calling him "Darkspines" instead of just Darkspine.

Now regarding the claim of it being infinite, this is the corridor that supposedly "turns into an infinite space", not only is it just spatially expanding to where you can still literally see the exit, it only extended and is blocked by 3 gates that Sonic uses the Astral Plane to fix (shown in more extensive gameplay). I'm more included to believe it is a hyperbole rather then completely literal just to enhance the effect of the spatially extending corridor. Even if this were to be taken literally if the statement was completely reliable, it'll be more like infinitely expanding rather then an innately infinite space based in its portrayal in game. However I don't think the claim that its infinite is reliable at all based on what's shown in game along with the source of the statement itself, an unreliable prima guide that doesn't meet canon approval standards. I've even completely looked at a much more reliable Japanese Secret Rings Guide published by Shogakukan: Sonic to Himitsu no Ring Saikyou Kouryaku Guide, and I did not find any statement suggesting the same infinite size that the prima guide does. Therefore, this feat should be removed entirely.

Hey, maybe the one in IDW works better than this

 

[Alexander]

essentially yes, but they also treat the time passing not just as a gameplay thing but as a big deal within major plot points, further iterating that they are bound by time narratively

I think we have more than one character who suffers from that problem, and yet many of their feats always involve covering an infinite distance in a finite time, but i think it will be redundant to mention it.

 

[AyOgUyS]

essentially yes, but they also treat the time passing not just as a gameplay thing but as a big deal within major plot points, further iterating that they are bound by time narratively

I agree then

 

[JJSliderman]

Completely agree with infinite removal, and theres a multitude of other showings like Shadow you can bring up as well.

Since we are already on the topic of major removals, why don't we discuss the night palace feat? It comes from a prima guide that in almost certain does not meet the new canon standards based on approval, as its just a guide written by a random from the UK, with no real input from the actual devs/writers of the game themselves and evidentially so. It even gets major plot recap details wrong such as claiming Darkspine Sonic has 4 of the world Rings despite only having 3. It even gets the forms name wrong calling him "Darkspines" instead of just Darkspine.

Now regarding the claim of it being infinite, this is the corridor that supposedly "turns into an infinite space", not only is it just spatially expanding to where you can still literally see the exit, it only extended and is blocked by 3 gates that Sonic uses the Astral Plane to fix (shown in more extensive gameplay). I'm more included to believe it is a hyperbole rather then completely literal just to enhance the effect of the spatially extending corridor. Even if this were to be taken literally if the statement was completely reliable, it'll be more like infinitely expanding rather then an innately infinite space based in its portrayal in game. However I don't think the claim that its infinite is reliable at all based on what's shown in game along with the source of the statement itself, an unreliable prima guide that doesn't meet canon approval standards. I've even completely looked at a much more reliable Japanese Secret Rings Guide published by Shogakukan: Sonic to Himitsu no Ring Saikyou Kouryaku Guide, and I did not find any statement suggesting the same infinite size that the prima guide does. Therefore, this feat should be removed entirely.

I don't disagree and would be fine with removing it but I think that might be more for a separate thread, as the series get a lot of its sourcing from strategy guides and it might be better to cover them all in one go.

Just to clarify though, this isn't removing infinite entirely, it's just changing the baseline to a different value.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I don't disagree and would be fine with removing it but I think that might be more for a separate thread, as the series get a lot of its sourcing from strategy guides and it might be better to cover them all in one go.

that makes sense to me

 

[Starsprite53]

Completely agree with infinite removal, and theres a multitude of other showings like Shadow you can bring up as well.

Since we are already on the topic of major removals, why don't we discuss the night palace feat? It comes from a prima guide that in almost certain does not meet the new canon standards based on approval, as its just a guide written by a random from the UK, with no real input from the actual devs/writers of the game themselves and evidentially so. It even gets major plot recap details wrong such as claiming Darkspine Sonic has 4 of the world Rings despite only having 3. It even gets the forms name wrong calling him "Darkspines" instead of just Darkspine.

Now regarding the claim of it being infinite, this is the corridor that supposedly "turns into an infinite space", not only is it just spatially expanding to where you can still literally see the exit, it only extended and is blocked by 3 gates that Sonic uses the Astral Plane to fix (shown in more extensive gameplay). I'm more included to believe it is a hyperbole rather then completely literal just to enhance the effect of the spatially extending corridor. Even if this were to be taken literally if the statement was completely reliable, it'll be more like infinitely expanding rather then an innately infinite space based in its portrayal in game. However I don't think the claim that its infinite is reliable at all based on what's shown in game along with the source of the statement itself, an unreliable prima guide that doesn't meet canon approval standards. I've even completely looked at a much more reliable Japanese Secret Rings Guide published by Shogakukan: Sonic to Himitsu no Ring Saikyou Kouryaku Guide, and I did not find any statement suggesting the same infinite size that the prima guide does. Therefore, this feat should be removed entirely.

Ami makes sense.

 

[JJSliderman]

Although, if enough people voice support in this thread to remove the Night Palace feat, I can rework the scaling chain. Currently we have Colors era Sonic scaling to ships that can travel "across the universe" to Planet Wisp, which is currently accepted as infinite, along with scaling to Dodon Pa's rocket doing the same feat.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Currently we have Colors era Sonic scaling to ships that can travel "across the universe" to Planet Wisp, which is currently accepted as infinite, along with scaling to Dodon Pa's rocket doing the same feat.

Technically we don't know if the ships Sonic fights can perform the same feat as it was the Egg Shuttle specifically, and Dodon Pa seems to be considered somewhat superior to Eggman iirc. That being said, it's far more likely than not

But yeah if people voice their opinion on removing the Night Palace feat in this thread, I do agree with that.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Currently we have Colors era Sonic scaling to ships that can travel "across the universe" to Planet Wisp, which is currently accepted as infinite, along with scaling to Dodon Pa's rocket doing the same feat.

Don't wanna crazy derail, but the only eggman ships we see reach planet wisp is the egg shuttle, one designed specifically for quick light speed travels, and sonic never directly compares to it. the other ships that he fights are more akin to defense battle guard ships for the tractor beams. So im not sure if this is really solid personally.

He also doesn't have a direct comparison to Dodonpa's rocket either, and Dondonpa's tech is really gassed up with Tails even calling it scary, wanting to analyze it for hours, and his tech is likely even comparable to The Ancients as of crossworlds with sage saying his simulations are able to rival Cyberspace itself, so imo this definitely shouldn't be used along with the fact that theres no real comparison to provide actual scaling/downscaling/upscaling or really anything

 

[TheStinkeer]

To play devil's advocate of those ships Sonic fights scaling, and while names of things aren't typically a good way to scale, both ships are referred to as "frigate," sometimes referred to as a warship that was built for speed and maneuverability. We also see it acting as a sort of transport ship like how the Egg Shuttle was used to transport badniks to take over Planet Wisp. It's also built to combat Sonic, fastest thing alive and faster than light. There also wouldn't be much reason for Eggman to not incorporate similar technology to defeat him. (He also uses light speed electrical parade in starlight carnival similar to his "light speed access," but idk what exactly it's referring to so.) So, in my opinion, saying the frigate ships scale has some assumptions but I also think it can be fairly solid, at least as a supporting feat

Anyways, apologies for derailing

 

[JJSliderman]

Don't wanna crazy derail, but the only eggman ships we see reach planet wisp is the egg shuttle, one designed specifically for quick light speed travels, and sonic never directly compares to it. the other ships that he fights are more akin to defense battle guard ships for the tractor beams. So im not sure if this is really solid personally.

He also doesn't have a direct comparison to Dodonpa's rocket either, and Dondonpa's tech is really gassed up with Tails even calling it scary, wanting to analyze it for hours, and his tech is likely even comparable to The Ancients as of crossworlds with sage saying his simulations are able to rival Cyberspace itself, so imo this definitely shouldn't be used along with the fact that theres no real comparison to provide actual scaling/downscaling/upscaling or really anything

I think you’re kinda right but that is what’s accepted rn.

Unless, again, people want to debate that too.

In which case the next example of possible infinite speed would probably be either paradox prism scaling, or Sonic outpacing the energy of the phantom Ruby which was used to create an endless space.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I think you’re kinda right but that is what’s accepted rn.

Unless, again, people want to debate that too.

In which case the next example of possible infinite speed would probably be either paradox prism scaling, or Sonic outpacing the energy of the phantom Ruby which was used to create an endless space.

understandable, considering how much there is to discuss we should probably split some stuff for another time.

 

[JJSliderman]

understandable, considering how much there is to discuss we should probably split some stuff for another time.

Right, a general infinite speed feat run-through I suppose.

 

[Snek]

Right, a general infinite speed feat run-through I suppose.

On that note the old scaling chain relies on upscaling over characters from the modern era so, in order to avoid circular scaling, should we have the super forms baseline upscale the Final Egg Blaster at 58 billion c off of the Chaos Emeralds definitive superiority over adventure era Eggman's technology while otherwise having super forms just upscale base forms for the points in the timeline where base characters are MFTL+ to a degree that surpasses the Final Egg Blaster?

 

[JJSliderman]

On that note the old scaling chain relies on upscaling over characters from the modern era so, in order to avoid circular scaling, should we have the super forms baseline upscale the Final Egg Blaster at 58 billion c off of the Chaos Emeralds definitive superiority over adventure era Eggman's technology while otherwise having super forms just upscale base forms for the points in the timeline where base characters are MFTL+ to a degree that surpasses the Final Egg Blaster?

That seems fair, as currently the wiki sometimes has base forms upscale super form level bosses, so super forms clearly aren’t scaling to the frontiers speed at every time point.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump

 

[AlloyAmi]

out of curiosity whats the main reason for the universe being infinite? (assuming its treated as so because you said the 2 universe crossing feats are). Is it the void?

 

[JJSliderman]

Yes, in Prime there’s a statement by Shadow that the Void consists of an eternity of darkness, and the French translation is being used to supplement it being infinite.

Personally I don’t really buy into it? But again, accepted, so.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Tbh I agree with the removal of the infinite hallway bullshit being added to this thread.

But I think any talk of touching the MFTL+ scaling should be for another thread. Altering the scaling this much with making MFTL+ the baseline Super State speed AND altering where Infinite Speed scaling starts is already altering a lot of pages.

@JJSliderman You can probably look through old versions of the Stats Blog to see where the Infinite Speed scaling used to be iirc.

 

[Snek]

Tbh I agree with the removal of the infinite hallway bullshit being added to this thread.

Oh me too. Frankly I just held off on saying as much because I didn't expect that stance to be popular

And technically that topic is only tangentially related to the proposals.

But I think any talk of touching the MFTL+ scaling should be for another thread. Altering the scaling this much with making MFTL+ the baseline Super State speed AND altering where Infinite Speed scaling starts is already altering a lot of pages.

Good point, you're probably right about that. The specifics of the MFTL+ scaling chain probably don't matter that much at the moment.

For now I agree with the proposals even if vaguely MFTL+ with no specific value, or that few sextillion c number from the old scaling chain or 58 billion c off the Final Egg Blaster are used as a place holder value until something is worked out in a later thread.

 

[Theuser789]

Tbh I agree with the removal of the infinite hallway bullshit being added to this thread.

But I think any talk of touching the MFTL+ scaling should be for another thread. Altering the scaling this much with making MFTL+ the baseline Super State speed AND altering where Infinite Speed scaling starts is already altering a lot of pages.

@JJSliderman You can probably look through old versions of the Stats Blog to see where the Infinite Speed scaling used to be iirc.

I agree with this post. Plus I am pretty sure the boss of Starlight Carnival and Asteroid Coaster is indeed an Egg Shuttle (plus Metal Sonic should upscale from all of them and he races Sonic in Colors Ultimate).

 

[ShakeResounding]

For now I agree with the proposals even if vaguely MFTL+ with no specific value, or that few sextillion c number from the old scaling chain or 58 billion c off the Final Egg Blaster are used as a place holder value until something is worked out in a later thread.

We should simply revert the scaling to what it was before and work our way from there, essentially making it so that the prior upgrade never took place and the only Infinite Speed scaling comes from Post-Frontiers shit.

The Stats Blog has the history of all such cases across the various different instances of our scaling, making it easy to work with and apply.

 

[JJSliderman]

I agree with this post. Plus I am pretty sure the boss of Starlight Carnival and Asteroid Coaster is indeed an Egg Shuttle (plus Metal Sonic should upscale from all of them and he races Sonic in Colors Ultimate).

The Egg Shuttle has a notably different design from Frigate Orcan and Skullion, the latter two are primarily combat focused while Shuttle is purely for traversal. Idk about Metal Sonic upscaling either, he’s not referred to as Eggman’s fastest creation, or anything.

 

[AyOgUyS]

The Egg Shuttle has a notably different design from Frigate Orcan and Skullion, the latter two are primarily combat focused while Shuttle is purely for traversal. Idk about Metal Sonic upscaling either, he’s not referred to as Eggman’s fastest creation, or anything.

narratively, sonic should be faster than any of eggman's machines and metal is consistently equal to sonic

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbh I agree with the removal of the infinite hallway bullshit being added to this thread.

But I think any talk of touching the MFTL+ scaling should be for another thread. Altering the scaling this much with making MFTL+ the baseline Super State speed AND altering where Infinite Speed scaling starts is already altering a lot of pages.

Good point. I think at least the proposal to remove infinite as the baseline has been accepted. Although there hasn’t been specific comments on the scaling chain in the OP or the removal of infinite speed from Secret Rings by the mods yet.

 

[Omegabronic]

We should simply revert the scaling to what it was before and work our way from there, essentially making it so that the prior upgrade never took place and the only Infinite Speed scaling comes from Post-Frontiers shit.

The Stats Blog has the history of all such cases across the various different instances of our scaling, making it easy to work with and apply.

The universe would still be 6x universal via prime, so the colors feats and similar would still need to be recalced

 

[Omegabronic]

The Egg Shuttle has a notably different design from Frigate Orcan and Skullion, the latter two are primarily combat focused while Shuttle is purely for traversal. Idk about Metal Sonic upscaling either, he’s not referred to as Eggman’s fastest creation, or anything.

I don't see why they would be slower than standard nameless Eggman ships

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the Finalhazard downgrade.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I don't see why they would be slower than standard nameless Eggman ships

yea, I think sonic should comfortably upscale the vast majority of eggman tech

 

[JJSliderman]

yea, I think sonic should comfortably upscale the vast majority of eggman tech

I mean Sonic is not immune to being outsped by Eggtech, he gets caught by Eggman’s egg walker extendable arm in the Unleashed intro

 

[JJSliderman]

Agree with the Finalhazard downgrade.

Any comment on the scaling chain in the OP or the infinite speed secret rings scaling being removed?

Regardless at least the proposal to change super form speed baseline is approved. I have an interview today so I’ll start on the changes tomorrow.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I mean Sonic is not immune to being outsped by Eggtech, he gets caught by Eggman’s egg walker extendable arm in the Unleashed intro

i honestly think that unleashed eggtech is just built different cuz bro straight up overpowered and cancelled super sonic

 

[Theuser789]

The Egg Shuttle has a notably different design from Frigate Orcan and Skullion, the latter two are primarily combat focused while Shuttle is purely for traversal.

We literally see them use the same methods of travels in their boss fights that the Egg Shuttle has.

Idk about Metal Sonic upscaling either, he’s not referred to as Eggman’s fastest creation, or anything.

Omega says he's the only Eggman creation that is "on par with Sonic". That means speed as well.

 

[AyOgUyS]

We literally see them use the same methods of travels in their boss fights that the Egg Shuttle has.

Omega says he's the only Eggman creation that is "on par with Sonic". That means speed as well.

IS THIS METAL>EGG WIZARD I SEE?!?!