The Short Awaited Hazbin Hotel Season 2 Downgrade (Part 1. "The only way I know how… SONG!”)

[OmenISTIRED]

Question.

Why are we assuming Alastor lost Durability just cause his staff broke? Like is that not a purely magical thing, And its nots like their using magic to amp physicality if that was possible the Goetia wouldn't be in Wall Level hell right now.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I’m fairly certain he only began losing Approval after he started firing Might of Lilith at Sinners.

Even if we assume he was already getting weaker in the Alastor fight, Vel and Val only managed to hurt him at his absolute lowest point, while the one that survived Shok.wav was an unknown but higher point.

Ya know what that fits with Possibly, just put another > there.

Or "9-A, likely higher, possibly 8-B" or some ugly shit

Question.

Why are we assuming Alastor lost Durability just cause his staff broke? Like is that not a purely magical thing, And its nots like their using magic to amp physicality if that was possible the Goetia wouldn't be in Wall Level hell right now.

Do I need to pull the shots of Alastor LITERALLY HAVING A HUGE WOUND ACROSS HIS TORSO?!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ya know what that fits with Possibly, just put another > there.

Or "9-A, likely higher, possibly 8-B" or some ugly shit

Could also just throw away the 8-B, the Overlords' scaling to it is basically akin to scaling everyone to 15 Fingers Sukuna cause they can hurt the 3 Fingers one.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Could also just throw away the 8-B, the Overlord's scaling to it is basically akin to scaling everyone to 15 Fingers Sukuna cause they can hurt the 3 Fingers one.

That's pretty different IIRC, since I'm pretty sure 15 fingers was handing folks their own asses(Though, I'm not a JJK guy, just going on what I've heard) while Vox... the guy's just ******* weird in tiering.

 

[OmenISTIRED]

Do I need to pull the shots of Alastor LITERALLY HAVING A HUGE WOUND ACROSS HIS TORSO?!

why would that lower his overall durability from(Assuming we do nuke T5) 1Kiloton-0.05Tons aka a 20,000x decrease.

Sure if they hit the gash specifically like Val did that would make sense, But we see bith Vox and Velvet deal damage to Alastor.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

This isn't what I'm saying at all.

The Low 5-B ratings of anyone that doens't scales to Lucifer comes from dividing the result of the Might of Lilith by this amount time despite being completely separate scenes (per Husk's profile). The division per amount of participants is on itself 5-B.

If you're only talking about the reduction over time itself, then honestly I don't know if it's calc stacking or not.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

why would that lower his overall durability from(Assuming we do nuke T5) 1Kiloton-0.05Tons aka a 20,000x decrease.

Sure if they hit the gash specifically like Val did that would make sense, But we see bith Vox and Velvet deal damage to Alastor.

Technically, Alastor was faking it for much of this fight (except when they directly hit his wound).

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

why would that lower his overall durability from(Assuming we do nuke T5) 1Kiloton-0.05Tons aka a 20,000x decrease.

Sure if they hit the gash specifically like Val did that would make sense, But we see bith Vox and Velvet deal damage to Alastor.

Does Full Power Alastor even have durability feats? Rn he's just scaling off the other Overlords' Tier 5 rating

This do be why I wanted the scaling to be its own CRT, there's a lot of intricacies to it that aren't "They were amped lol"

 

[OmenISTIRED]

Technically, Alastor was faking it for much of this fight (except when they directly hit his wound).

We still se Velvet cut Alastor directly

 

[DaReaperMan]

Does Full Power Alastor even have durability feats? Rn he's just scaling off the other Overlords' Tier 5 rating

This do be why I wanted the scaling to be its own CRT, there's a lot of intricacies to it that aren't "They were amped lol"

I wouldn't be unhappy saying "Full Power Alastor is At least 8-B physically and Low 7-C with magic"

 

[ShionAH]

Carmilla harms an Excorcist with a non-angelic knee. no.

If OP is accepted that knee would count as Angelic Steel enhanced. Read bro read

when circular scaling pops up, you cut out what causes the circular scaling. In this case, it's Excorcists being that durable.

We aren’t ignoring a main plot point of a character. Exorcist have no Invulnerability, no actual Immortality and now they arent even durabile according to you? What a sick joke

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

We still se Velvet cut Alastor directly

It was just a small cut, so at most Velvette would have climbed with a piercing AP.

 

[OmenISTIRED]

I wouldn't be unhappy saying "Full Power Alastor is At least 8-B physically and Low 7-C with magic"

Honestly neither would i, But wouldn't it be Multi City Block cause he manage to successfully block an attack from Adam who even casual should be Multi City Block based on the Blimp Feat

 

[OmenISTIRED]

It was just a small cut, so at most Velvette would have climbed with a piercing AP.

Would that be piercing? He was cut not stabbed.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

If you're only talking about the reduction over time itself, then honestly I don't know if it's calc stacking or not.

It is. It's slapping the result of a different feat to get numbers from another. The results of the cloud dispersion cannot be used as a baseline value for the thing exploding and dividing it by the amount of time it took to stop it.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Huh? The point is that this occasion is the first time happening.

I'm saying they might not have known that singing actually amplifies their power.

Wait, like, this amplification only happens on this occasion?...That's too convenient for just one supposed amplifier.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If OP is accepted that knee would count as Angelic Steel enhanced. Read bro read

Damn, I guess Carmilla has the superpower of making her laces cover all of her legs... sigh.

It is. It's slapping the result of a different feat to get numbers from another. The results of the cloud dispersion cannot be used as a baseline value for the thing exploding and dividing it by the amount of time it took to stop it.

I don't know how to tell you this but scaling one shot to another shot isn't calc stacking.

We aren’t ignoring a main plot point of a character. Exorcist have no Invulnerability, no actual Immortality and now they arent even durabile according to you? What a sick joke

Which is of course why Carmilla treats Vaggi like she's a beta bottom *****?

Honestly neither would i, But wouldn't it be Multi City Block cause he manage to successfully block an attack from Adam who even casual should be Multi City Block based on the Blimp Feat

 

[Mythic381]

Why are we assuming Alastor lost Durability just cause his staff broke? Like is that not a purely magical thing, And its nots like their using magic to amp physicality if that was possible the Goetia wouldn't be in Wall Level hell right now.

Sinner power and Goetia power is different anyways. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure there's still a direct relation between the way they get their magical power and their physical strength, otherwise Vox wouldn't been genuinely throwing Alastor around that easily.

Also the fact he has a gash but whatever that doesn't matter much

 

[Mythic381]

Wait, like, this amplification only happens on this occasion?...That's too convenient for just one supposed amplifier.

That's what the WoG says Also it's not that the amplification only happens, because Lilith exists.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Would that be piercing? He was cut not stabbed.

If I'm cutting something, I'm piercing something, and that's just terminology. Basically, it refers to concentrating force in a smaller area, allowing for more damage, like stabbings, shootings, etc.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I don't know how to tell you this but scaling one shot to another shot isn't calc stacking.

What are you talking about? You can scale as many shots as you want, you cannot try to use that result for another scene altogether and say that because it took them 60 seconds, then you have to divide the result of another calculation by that amount.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

That's what the WoG says Also it's not that the amplification only happens, because Lilith exists.

What WoG?

 

[Thunderman101]

Dosent Alastor Havs a 7-c calc iirc

 

[DaReaperMan]

What are you talking about? You can scale as many shots as you want, you cannot try to use that result for another scene altogether and say that because it took them 60 seconds, then you have to divide the result of another calculation by that amount.

Are you done lying? It's the same weapon, except it's shooting in a 360° arc cause it's overloading. I didn't know scaling one shot with the same weapon to another shot was calc stacking.

 

[Mythic381]

What WoG?

...? You do know my whole argument about it only happening in this case is WoG stating it right? Which I mentioned a while ago before?

“Hear My Hope” is the first song in the show that really explicitly taps into something that's alluded to throughout [the show], about music and power.

Dosent Alastor Havs a 7-c calc iirc

I think that was him causing a crater via destroying Pentious' ship. Which was downgraded as it's accepted that the explosion was done via him crushing it, which downgrades it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Dosent Alastor Havs a 7-c calc iirc

Full Power Alastor, who nobody scales to, has a Low 7-C calc.

Even trying to get Vox to scale in Full Demon is pushing it.

I think that was him causing a crater via destroying Pentious' ship. Which was downgraded as it's accepted that the explosion was done via him crushing it, which downgrades it.

Nobody actually ever got around to that IIRC. Even then he's got an 8-A feat to scale to.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

...? You do know my whole argument about it only happening in this case is WoG stating it right? Which I mentioned a while ago before?

Okay, but that doesn't justify an amplifier that's trillions of times louder. My problem isn't with having an amplifier, but with that amplifier being so absurd that it doesn't make sense within the rest of the plot.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Damn, I guess Carmilla has the superpower of making her laces cover all of her legs... sigh.

I mean

Which is of course why Carmilla treats Vaggi like she's a beta bottom *****?

Yeah it's also reinforced by the episode

Vaggi: How can I harm Exorcists?

Carmilla: Just like hit them hard.

Vaggi: Huh?

Carmilla: Yeah, just like kick them, really hard. That's how I did it.

Tho the Exorcists don't even have any feats so if the Overlords scale or not ain't really relevant.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean

Yeah it's also reinforced by the episode

Hey, the animation don't lie, IIRC in one of the hits there was no glowing stuff that hit Vaggi.

I don't feel like going through 20 Hellaverse threads to find it, but it was argued after season 2 dropped

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Are you done lying?

Yes, because I never started doing so.

It's the same weapon, except it's shooting in a 360° arc cause it's overloading.

So what? Calc Staking as a term was not introduced into this wiki because the characters performing any sort of feat might be different. If it was, there wouldn't be a problem in using calculated speeds of character explictly going at their maximun capacity as a baseline for other scenes. You literally cannot even use an explicit statement about a character's speed to get their reactions on calculation because that falls on the calc stacking umbrella as it requires a conversion - but you can get the value out of dividing the cinematic timing on an scene because in another one the output was calculated to be X?

 

[Mythic381]

Yeah it's also reinforced by the episode

My favorite line was definitely when Carmilla said "kick them, really hard" I even shed a tear.

Okay, but that doesn't justify an amplifier that's trillions of times louder. My problem isn't with having an amplifier, but with that amplifier being so absurd that it doesn't make sense within the rest of the plot.

Well...

But the point of the singing [in “Hear My Hope”] is that their singing serves a plot point, regardless of what words they're singing.

But the choral main sections in “Hear My Hope,” their voices are actually serving a purpose, a dramatic physical purpose.

There are implications in [this song] that these characters' voices and these characters' music give them power. “Hear My Hope” is the first example we've seen explicitly of these people's power being manifested through song to achieve an end.

The idea that music has power is very straightforward on an emotional level, and it's very fun to have a property that treats it not just as emotionally powerful, but as something that will affect the physical world.

Sure, it may be random, but this is a show treating constantly showcasing reality-warping effects during songs and has the Queen of Hell first ever empowering people via her song.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, because I never started doing so.

So what? Calc Staking as a term was not introduced into this wiki because the characters performing any sort of feat might be different. If it was, there wouldn't be a problem in using calculated speeds of character explictly going at their maximun capacity as a baseline for other scenes. You literally cannot even use an explicit statement about a character's speed to get their reactions on calculation because that falls on the calc stacking umbrella as it requires a conversion - but you can get the value out of dividing the cinematic timing on an scene because in another one the output was calculated to be X?

Remove all bullet dodging feats from fiction as speed feats because they're calc stacking(After all, we calculate the speed of bullets IRL to know how fast they are, do we not?), then come back and tell me a big gun firing does not have the same energy and whatnot as other shots from the same weapon. With the same power source/ammo.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh, and for the record, argue with @Agnaa, a Super Moderator and Calculation Group Member, and is the one who brought the seconds thing to my attention, that it's calc stacking. I would have just done the normal division like we do for... well every other verse with a feat like this. Shit is regularly divided between the people who do it or by seconds. Powerpuff Girls comes to mind for dividing a calc between the folks that did it.

Not what this thread is arguing though, as it's arguing that due to Inverse Square Law getting a lower result than dividing by 14 and the barrier faltering that neither method is usable for durability and whatnot. so I'm gonna call this derailing and stop here.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Remove all bullet dodging feats from fiction as speed feats because they're calc stacking(After all, we calculate the speed of bullets IRL to know how fast they are, do we not?), then come back and tell me a big gun firing does not have the same energy and whatnot as other shots from the same weapon. With the same power source/ammo.

You have not addresed a thing I said.

A bullet is a real constant that requires a layer of assumption we don't give to fiction because we accept that fiction isn't 1:1 with IRL consistency. It's a faulty analogy.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am a busy individual, as life continues to draw and quarter me. Nevertheless, I am making an effort to be here. I have not read the four pages of banter, because a lot of it seems pretty toxic and if it needs action in that regard, I will get to it later.

I have read the OP, and I want to say outright that I agree that this seems to be a case of an outlier. Some in-verse context mitigates this, but not to the extent that I would agree with everyone scaling to one Tier 5 feat when they broadly land in the territory of Tier 9/8 feats with what seems, at least, to be extraordinary regularity.

I'd like to see a more formal proposal from OP on how the scaling looks, in detail, if this downgrade goes through. I saw Reaper's proposal, though I lack the verse knowledge to verify it as sound (I do not watch this show, and in fact would like to actively avoid it ).

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'd like to see a more formal proposal from OP on how the scaling looks, in detail, if this downgrade goes through. I saw Reaper's proposal, though I lack the verse knowledge to verify it as sound (I do not watch this show, and in fact would like to actively avoid it ).

Could also just throw away the 8-B, the Overlords' scaling to it is basically akin to scaling everyone to 15 Fingers Sukuna cause they can hurt the 3 Fingers one.

This was Eden's only contention with what I did, so same shit, just replace Possibly 8-B with likely Higher

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Sure, it may be random, but this is a show treating constantly showcasing reality-warping effects during songs and has the Queen of Hell first ever empowering people via her song.

I read that, but it doesn't make the amplifier any less absurd, even considering the requirements. But at least it has some basis, so meh.

Regarding Reality Warping, they also do it outside of music. Alastor has a forest in his room, Lucifer literally opened a portal to the place where he sang "Greatest Dad" when he sang the duet with Charlie, and both (Lucifer and Alastor) also had matter manipulation outside of music. It's just that they use this type of ability more in the musical parts, but they have them.

 

[Electronic74947]

Would that be piercing? He was cut not stabbed.

Papercuts exist

Are humans paper level

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Papercuts exist

Are humans paper level

I am.

 

[Alexander]

Let me remind you of a detail that I think everyone seems to ignore or simply doesn't care about...the cannon is literally something angelic and it's known that that thing doesn't give a damn about your durability and can completely negate your regeneration.
so it is unlikely that the thing that would have killed them was the explosion power itself, and instead, it was the angelic thing (which is 10 times more likely anyway)