The Short Awaited Hazbin Hotel Season 2 Downgrade (Part 1. "The only way I know how… SONG!”)

[StrymULTRA]

And to repeat it again, I'll provide a rating for the Overlords in Part 2, this thread is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.

That's not allowed, the Discussion Rules are pretty clear on this:

The full scope of the pages affected by a content revision thread should be known by the time it's applied. Changes which affect site standards as a whole are completely exempt from this, but usage of those new standards to update specific series isn't. Upgrades to statistics and changes to abilities are required to include a list of characters believed to be affected in the post introducing those changes. Downgrades to statistics and changes in accordance with alterations in site standards should include such a list if possible, but if not, a mention that one is unsure will suffice.

You gotta add what they're gonna be downgraded to if the basis of the tier is just that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's not allowed, the Discussion Rules are pretty clear on this:

You gotta add what they're gonna be downgraded to if the basis of the tier is just that.

I don't quite see where it says that? It's essentially the same thing you did with your Hazbin revision, delaying its application till a separate CRT cause some stuff might not stick.

And like, if the Hear My Hope feat is gone, then they just default to their next highest feat, that being 9-A.
Now, there are arguments that some of them might scale higher than that (None of which is currently reflected on their profile) but diving into that would just bloat this thread and shift focus away from the main point (The outlier) so why bother ya know

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's essentially the same thing you did with your Hazbin revision, delaying its application till a separate CRT cause some stuff might not stick.

I never did this, nice strawman. I only said that some things can be discussed in the thread itself, not that I'm delaying to another CRT. OP had already all the suggested ratings that'd replace these.

For the rest I only have interpreted it as you delaying what tier they'd be downgraded to in Part 2, but alright then.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

OP had already all the suggested ratings that'd replace these.

What about the Overlords

But yeah this revision is just removing the one feat that was added to them in this CRT, so they'd just revert back to their previous rating.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

What about the Overlords

But yeah this revision is just removing the one feat that was added to them in this CRT, so they'd just revert back to their previous rating.

Wouldnt that be 8-B?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldnt that be 8-B?

8-B has been removed quite a long ago.

 

[Homie890]

8-B has been removed quite a long ago.

Did it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Did it?

Do you see any 8-B Pentious anywhere in this wiki sir?

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

8-B has been removed quite a long ago.

Do you see any 8-B Pentious anywhere in this wiki sir?

8-B overlords, there should be more than enough for that, for overlords to scale to

 

[Electronic74947]

Just a small note on the antifeats thing. Piercing damage is accounted for in this wiki right? Isn't that why we scale spiderman to building level despite having numerous times of which he's not bulletproof, because of piercing?

A planetary dude shouldn't be hurt by bullets but a small building/wall level dude most certainly can afaik.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Just a small note on the antifeats thing. Piercing damage is accounted for in this wiki right? Isn't that why we scale spiderman to building level despite having numerous times of which he's not bulletproof?

Yea basically, most writers think that building busters aren't immune to bullets due to piercing, the Boys is a verse that doesn't do that, which is a bit rare

 

[Electronic74947]

Yea basically, most writers think that building busters aren't immune to bullets due to piercing, the Boys is a verse that doesn't do that, which is a bit rare

the boys is a bit weird


Anyways I agree with the downgrade, how do you watch the show and honestly come to the conclusion that Alastor is planetary lmfao

Hell the size of the beam isn't even consistent in the scene, but thats starting to derail

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

the boys is a bit weird


Anyways I agree with the downgrade, how do you watch the show and honestly come to the conclusion that Alastor is planetary lmfao

I dont, i think he caps at city at a high end, just not below his small town level and multi-cityblock showings

 

[Electronic74947]

I dont, i think he caps at city at a high end, just not below his small town level and multi-cityblock showings

Where does alastor even scale/was scaled before the great shift?

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Where does alastor even scale/was scaled before the great shift?

About what I said, he had the low 7-C pilot thing, a multi cityblock one in episode 1, prolly a lot more in S2, and can downscale Adam, who is funnily enough only 2ish times stronger than AL off of just calcs, which honestly explains how that battle went down FAR better IMO

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What's the currently accepted best next feat for them to scale to?

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

What's the currently accepted best next feat for them to scale to?

Small building sadly, since Shock.wav isnt usable and people dont like overlords downscaling casual AL feats

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Then that's acceptable as a placeholder.

Well, currently, I'm more on OP side and haven't seen anything that suggests the feat isn't an outlier even if we remove the bullets point from the OP.

However, I should note, I have only seen Season 1 of the show and am only familiar with the youtube version of Helluva Boss (and am not planning on watching the actual series as of yet, only Season 2 of Hazbin).

There, first staff evaluation, now we need 2 more

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

A common response to this is, "if this amp exists, why don’t they abuse it constantly in combat?"
It may simply be impractical to sing and fight at the same time, perhaps there's a certain mechanic to it that makes it require multiple singers, maybe they need to be "in perfect harmony" (as the show puts it) or maybe the characters are just dumb, this is the series where a character didn't realize Angels could be harmed, despite being an angel who was.

Seriously, an amplifier that amplifies millions, billions, trillions, or however many times, of your power just by singing, and it's not used in any fight in a musical animation? If this amplifier existed and was so powerful, why didn't Alastor lose his title as the strongest sinner when Vox or Carmilla sang and he didn't? Why didn't the characters specialize in singing while fighting since they talk while fighting?

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Anyways.

After a closer look, I do agree with this part in particular:

Because it breaks the rules against Calc Staking. It made sense when the whole thing was about stopping the explosion that would've destroyed half of Pentagram City because that was the feat. Now, not so much.

As far as I know, scale multipliers or dividers do not fall under Calc Stacking.

 

[Electronic74947]

Seriously, an amplifier that amplifies millions, billions, trillions, or however many times, of your power just by singing, and it's not used in any fight in a musical animation? If this amplifier existed and was so powerful, why didn't Alastor lose his title as the strongest sinner when Vox or Carmilla sang and he didn't? Why didn't the characters specialize in singing while fighting since they talk while fighting?

Power of friendship and allat jazz. No im not joking that's probably the reason

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Power of friendship and allat jazz. No im not joking that's probably the reason

its exactly the reason

once again, Bread Boys have the closest power system to the Hellaverse one, and learning that has let me understand this one more, the planetary/multiversal crusaders are literally overpowered by the power of friendship

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

The advantage Angelic Power has over demons is that it can null their regen, it's far-fetched to say it can kill demons regardless of how weak it is, in fact we even have a counterexample with Nifty. Alastor is also a specific case, his powers are directly tied to his staff. It wasn't due to Adam hitting him with Holy Light that he lost his powers, anything that would've broken his staff would've done the same.

The superiority of angelic power over demonic power has shown no limitations; it's no exaggeration to say that it might have an advantage against demonic magic simply because what was shown was the negation of regeneration, and Nifty surviving a casual attack from Adam doesn't confirm anything. But anyway, without knowing how the explosion would happen, there's no way to know how the damage would be distributed, and in any case, the explosion would be more than 10 times more powerful than anyone else's.

Regarding Adam nullifying Alastor's magic, I really don't know why that's in the profile. He can only do that with an angelic weapon.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Power of friendship and allat jazz. No im not joking that's probably the reason

I think the power of not wanting to be killed also works.

 

[Da3ggman]

I agree with the OP, axe this ******* abomination of scaling.

 

[Mythic381]

Seriously, an amplifier that amplifies millions, billions, trillions, or however many times, of your power just by singing, and it's not used in any fight in a musical animation? If this amplifier existed and was so powerful, why didn't Alastor lose his title as the strongest sinner when Vox or Carmilla sang and he didn't? Why didn't the characters specialize in singing while fighting since they talk while fighting?

It is stated in WoG that it's the first song to actually tap into that idea. I do mostly doubt they were aware of their capability to do that but eh

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Regarding the attacks in general, besides contradicting even the Imps' scales, most of them boil down to piercing AP and surface area. Regarding bombs, Reze (manga) and Bakugou injure characters with bomb attacks that shouldn't hurt them due to their size, but still do. But the funniest part is with Husk, Velvette, and the car. Why does Husk hide behind a car in season 1? Velvette is literally pulled by Alastor, crushing a car, and Husk and Nifty face Velvette, so somehow Car > Husk ≈ Velvette > Car. And to make matters worse, she falls from the V tower and is shattered (because she's a doll), which didn't happen when Alastor crushed a car with her, therefore Fall from Building > Crushing a Car, fascinating.

Following the logic applied here, any character above wall level cannot use any weapon, which fiction simply ignores or not depending on the work.

Well, anyway, there's not much more to say that others haven't already mentioned or discussed. Good luck with the CRT, I hope the CGMs will come and vote.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

As far as I know, scale multipliers or dividers do not fall under Calc Stacking.

This isn’t a multiplier or a divider. Multipliers are ”This character is 10 times stronger than before”, dividers are the same thing but on the opposite end.

This is counting the amount of seconds it took a number of given characters to perform a different feat to divide it by X value because it comes from a power that was calculated to be that powerful on a different scene. That cannot be done.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

It is stated in WoG that it's the first song to actually tap into that idea. I do mostly doubt they were aware of their capability to do that but eh

It's a musical, how come nobody noticed that he became extremely more powerful singing? Anyway, if that amplifier existed, Rose and Alastor's agreement would have been broken multiple times (unless weakened Alastor and 100% Vox are trillions of times stronger than the others).

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

This isn’t a multiplier or a divider. Multipliers are ”This character is 10 times stronger than before”, dividers are the same thing but on the opposite end.

This is counting the amount of seconds it took a number of given characters to perform a different feat to divide it by X value because it comes from a power that was calculated to be that powerful on a different scene. That cannot be done.

It's simply a reduction in scale. To give an example, if 3 characters create a barrier against another character with a feat of 3 tons of TNT, they will be scaled to at least 1 ton of TNT, even if using another feat, because it's known that that character has that power. In the case of MoL, it's known that an overload is superior to a regular shot.

Edit - Which doesn't mean that assuming the shield increased over time is correct, considering the whole scene, it isn't, but the division between the characters is.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

It's simply a reduction in scale. To give an example, if 3 characters create a barrier against another character with a feat of 3 tons of TNT, they will be scaled to at least 1 ton of TNT, even if using another feat, because it's known that that character has that power

This isn't what I'm saying at all.

The Low 5-B ratings of anyone that doens't scales to Lucifer comes from dividing the result of the Might of Lilith by this amount time despite being completely separate scenes (per Husk's profile). The division per amount of participants is on itself 5-B.

 

[Mythic381]

It's a musical, how come nobody noticed that he became extremely more powerful singing? Anyway, if that amplifier existed, Rose and Alastor's agreement would have been broken multiple times (unless weakened Alastor and 100% Vox are trillions of times stronger than the others).

Huh? The point is that this occasion is the first time happening.

I'm saying they might not have known that singing actually amplifies their power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ignoring everything else going on, obviously I disagree with the thread(MoL blast should still be usable even if you argue the 5-B end shouldn't) or scaling normal sinners to Overlords in any way(Don't forget, Overlords regularly gore and rip apart normal sinners)

But assuming it all goes through...

5-B: Lucifer, Adam
Low 7-C: FP Alastor
8-B: Shok.wav, W!Alastor Demon Form, 100% Vox(Unless you rate Shok.wav as 9-A, 8-B via Kinetic Energy, Vox would scale to the 8-B, if downscaling due to other factors like Alastor refusing to fight it head on, scaling chain would be Shok.wav>100% Vox>W!Alastor)
(My scaling) 9-A, possibly 8-B: Vees, Husk, etcetera, scale to Vox's 9-A feat, and 8-B comes from Velvette being able to minority harm 100% Vox with a kick. Scaling chain would be W!Alastor>Base Vees=Husk and Niffty>Cherri[still disagree but I digress]). Vox would get something mentioning FP Alastor, but that's just me and for another thread since it's controversial.

Weirdos: Carmilla, Excorcists, other rando Overlords, and Zestial. Don't know where to put them exactly. Probably 9-A, possibly 8-B for the excorcists, being honest, but the rest I dunno.

 

[ShionAH]

Wouldn't the Exorcist scale to Alastor because of their invulnerability statements although maybe him being gone for 7 years could be used as a counter argument. At the very least straight 8-B.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wouldn't the Exorcist scale to Alastor because of their invulnerability statements? Or at the very least 8-B.

Why? FP Alastor like, is BLATANTLY above Excorcists. They wouldn't have hurt themselves on his shield if they were at all comparable?

 

[ShionAH]

Why? FP Alastor like, is BLATANTLY above Excorcists. They wouldn't have hurt themselves on his shield if they were at all comparable?

Good point, I'd say 8-B then since they should be above Shock.vaw

 

[DaReaperMan]

Good point, I'd say 8-B then since they should be above Shock.wav

Carmilla harms an Excorcist with a non-angelic knee. no.

when circular scaling pops up, you cut out what causes the circular scaling. In this case, it's Excorcists being that durable.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

8-B comes from Velvette being able to minority harm 100% Vox with a kick.

He already lost the Approval that made him the strongest Sinner by that point, and like, Val legit rips his head off afterwards, he's pretty clearly weakened.

 

[DaReaperMan]

He already lost the Approval that made him the strongest Sinner by that point, and like, Val legit rips his head off afterwards, he's pretty clearly weakened.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when he tanked Shok.wav throwing him back, wasn't he already losing approval?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when he tanked Shok.wav throwing him back, wasn't he already losing approval?

I’m fairly certain he only began losing Approval after he started firing Might of Lilith at his people.

Even if we assume he was already getting weaker in the Alastor fight, Vel and Val only managed to hurt him at his absolute lowest point, while the one that survived Shok.wav was an unknown but higher point.