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@Eden_Warlock99 I do want to ask, what would you think about using the Carmilla's statement only and assuming this is weaker than the beam to scale them at like Mountain to Island level (as far as I remember). That would make the jump in power MUCH more believable right?
Otherwise I do believe this makes sense, I will hold off my vote as neutral but leaning towards agreeing right now... not that it matters lol.
This approach doesn't really address the stuff about the explosion being so deadly to them that they didn't even try to escape (Even just being 1 meter away from an explosion should reduce its power by 16), nor the music amp stuff. Plus, 6-C is still a MASSIVE jump for people who's best feat otherwise is 9-A.
Eden, you’re genuinely acting like it’s the first time you are in a Hazbin CRT. There is a damn reason why Hazbin is listed in controversial verses and requires three staff approvals!
Listen, I've seen Dragon Ball threads, they get lots of comments fast cause of how big their fanbase is.
What's Hazbin's excuse? Yall are what, 4 people? No thread should go to 2 pages this fast cause of 4 people lol
Just don't multi-post, if you want to say something say it all in one post.
Ya know the drill. Any amount of derailment from here on will be deleted. Anyone that persists trying to derail, will get threadbanned. Y'all are warned.
I'm gonna be honest imo that's the only thing worth arguing. Without it, any other reason as to why this feat shouldn't count is just cope or vibescaling
This approach doesn't really address the stuff about the explosion being so deadly to them that they didn't even try to escape (Even just being 1 meter away from an explosion should reduce its power by 16), nor the music amp stuff.
This approach doesn't really address the stuff about the explosion being so deadly to them that they didn't even try to escape (Even just being 1 meter away from an explosion should reduce its power by 16), nor the music amp stuff. Plus, 6-C is still a MASSIVE jump for people who's best feat otherwise is 9-A.
I straight up don't think the explosion would even work like that, I always assumed it would work like this. So, I don't really like that we just ASSUME the "it will blow" part was very accurate when said by a mortal who doesn't know Lucifers whole power.
I straight up don't think the explosion would even work like that, I always assumed it would work like this. So, I don't really like that we just ASSUME the "it will blow" part was very accurate when said by a mortal who doesn't know Lucifers whole power.
I don’t really understand the comparison you're trying to make here? Instead of working like an explosion, you think it'd work like... another explosion?
Or is this about the AoE discrepancy? Cause if so, DB has an actual mechanic explaining so, that being Ki Control. Hazbin has no such thing. And like, even in DB, the more condensed the Ki the more powerful the blast is, that's why the Kamehameha, Dodon-Pa or any other special beam attack is vastly stronger than any ordinary strike.
Not a fan with dismissing Carmilla's assessment either, this is the same person who knew exact moment her weapon would overload.
Plus, how does her not knowing it's Lucifer's power, help your argument at all? Doesn't it straight-up weaken it?
Under your logic, this supposed 5-B thought a regular 6-C explosion would unquestionably kill her and that escape was pointless. Like huh?
I don't see how guns in animation being often portrayed as more explosive than they are IRL (This isn’t unique to Hazbin) is a get-out-of-jail-free card when we also have countless examples of those same guns failing to get past metal surfaces like cars, cages, etc.
I don't know why we're acting like guns are the only anti-feats they have either, it's a single anti-feat among many.
We literally have one of the supposed 5-Bs failing to get past a wall. Like I can't stress how insane that is for a 5-B lol
What City Block stuff??? Shok.wav? The shark who the two strongest Sinners in their Demons Forms (And have no scaling to any other Overlords) could do nothing to?
And to repeat it again, I'll provide a rating for the Overlords in Part 2, this thread is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
I don’t really understand the comparison you're trying to make here? Instead of working like an explosion, you think it'd work like... another explosion?
Or is this about the AoE discrepancy? Cause if so, DB has an actual mechanic explaining so, that being Ki Control. Hazbin has no such thing. And like, even in DB, the more condensed the Ki the more powerful the blast is, that's why the Kamehameha, Dodon-Pa or any other special beam attack is vastly stronger than any ordinary strike.
Not a fan with dismissing Carmilla's assessment either, this is the same person who knew exact moment her weapon would overload.
Plus, how does her not knowing it's Lucifer's power, help your argument at all? Doesn't it straight-up weaken it?
Under your logic, this supposed 5-B thought a regular 6-C explosion would unquestionably kill her and that escape was pointless. Like huh?
I don't see how guns in animation being often portrayed as more explosive than they are IRL (This isn’t unique to Hazbin) is a get-out-of-jail-free card when we also have countless examples of those same guns failing to get past metal surfaces like cars, cages, etc.
I don't know why we're acting like guns are the only anti-feats they have either, it's a single anti-feat among many.
We literally have one of the supposed 5-Bs failing to get past a wall. Like I can't stress how insane that is for a 5-B lol
What City Block stuff??? Shok.wav? The shark who the two strongest Sinners in their Demons Forms (And have no scaling to any other Overlords) could do nothing to?
What City Block stuff??? Shok.wav? The shark who the two strongest Sinners in their Demons Forms (And have no scaling to any other Overlords) could do nothing to?
A shark's bite is its strongest attack, in addition to having piercing AP, and yet Shock.Wav didn't rip off Alastor's arm. So yes, a weakened Alastor scales with Shock.Wav.
I don’t really understand the comparison you're trying to make here? Instead of working like an explosion, you think it'd work like... another explosion?
Or is this about the AoE discrepancy? Cause if so, DB has an actual mechanic explaining so, that being Ki Control. Hazbin has no such thing. And like, even in DB, the more condensed the Ki the more powerful the blast is, that's why the Kamehameha, Dodon-Pa or any other special beam attack is vastly stronger than any ordinary strike.
Not a fan with dismissing Carmilla's assessment either, this is the same person who knew exact moment her weapon would overload.
I don't see how guns in animation being often portrayed as more explosive than they are IRL (This isn’t unique to Hazbin) is a get-out-of-jail-free card when we also have countless examples of those same guns failing to get past metal surfaces like cars, cages, etc.
I don't know why we're acting like guns are the only anti-feats they have either, it's a single anti-feat among many.
We literally have one of the supposed 5-Bs failing to get past a wall. Like I can't stress how insane that is for a 5-B lol
What City Block stuff??? Shok.wav? The shark who the two strongest Sinners in their Demons Forms (And have no scaling to any other Overlords) could do nothing to?
And to repeat it again, I'll provide a rating for the Overlords in Part 2, this thread is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
A shark's bite is its strongest attack, in addition to having piercing AP, and yet Shock.Wav didn't rip off Alastor's arm. So yes, a weakened Alastor scales with Shock.Wav.
And again I want to emphasize that the only two people who might scale to Shok.wav are Demon Form W!Alastor and 100% Approval Vox, both of which are the 1# and 2# of all Sinners in Hell, with the other Vees only scaling point being the fact that they could scratch BASE W!Alastor's cheek.
But we're delving into "What's the Overlord new Tier" talk so I'll just leave it as that.
It's really just that we sometimes ignore anti-feats like that when a Tier has a lot of backup, see Danganronpa with its 4 Tier 7 feats across multiple games and such.
In Hazbin's case, their Tier is based on a single dubious feat that isn't even internally consistent with itself.
About bullets, it's piercing damage at play. I think somebody once make a try to see how much durable someone would need to be to have bullets bounce off them and it dropped an 8-A result or something like that.
Anyways, getting to the thread, whereas I see from where OP comes from, this wiki does has a background to let fiction be fiction with certain stuff. I remeber this happened with Ben 10 going back and forth with Tier 7, to tier 8/9 (because of several visible tier 9/8 anti-feats) and now Stinkfly sits at Tier 4? I do think this wiki does has a pretty wide leeway.
With that said, I do find merit on the assertion that Tier 5 does not seem to fit the wider cast. But I believe I'm not the best person to judge that.
It's really just that we just sometimes ignore anti-feats like that when a Tier has a lot of backup, see Danganronpa with its 4 Tier 7 feats across multiple games and such.
In Hazbin's case, their Tier is based on a single dubious feat that isn't even internally consistent with itself.
Yes, undoubtedly so. Before Might of Lilith (the doomsday weapon) overloads, Carmilla warns Vox that if he fires it again, it will blow and "take you, us and half the Pentagram with it." Vox then attempts to fire it again, fails and causes it to overload. Charlie suggests to evacuate but Carmilla responds with resignation, saying it’s no use.
That response makes no sense for someone who's 1/14th of the power of that explosion, surviving an explosion will always be leagues lower than the AP of the explosion itself, even just being a meter from the epicenter can divide the durability needed to tank it by 16. Yet she treats the blast as something that would unquestionably kill them all.
That and as they keep repeating "Everyone dies if we don't do this!" Hard to have a Season 3 when the entire cast is dead. What's PIS again?
Holy Manipulation (As a fallen angel he possesses angelic powers that trump over those of any demon)
Regeneration (Low-Godly) Negation, Soul Erasure (Similar to Adam he should be able to permanently kill sinners and make their souls cease to exist.
Even though Carmilla literally possessed the same power as Lucifer, she would still die because he was a Seraphim. The only reason the shield worked is because everyone amplified Emilly's shield.
Holy Manipulation (As a fallen angel he possesses angelic powers that trump over those of any demon)
Regeneration (Low-Godly) Negation, Soul Erasure (Similar to Adam he should be able to permanently kill sinners and make their souls cease to exist.
Even though Carmilla literally possessed the same power as Lucifer, she would still die because he was a Seraphim. The only reason the shield worked is because everyone amplified Emilly's shield.
It's not dura neg? It still needs to overcome her Durability to erase her. And as an explosion, it'd have to be significantly stronger than her to do so.
No, ever since Vox started shooting, Shock.Wav was trying to attack Alastor to protect him, and there's nothing indicating that Vox contacted Shock.Wav about it (especially during his fit of madness), so it's just your assumption.
Yes, undoubtedly so. The feats and anti-feats of Overlords and those who scale to them really only hover around Tier 9. Here are some of those anti-feats:
Velvette was taken out by a fall from V Tower. Even if she didn’t die, her doll form still broke apart on impact, which makes so very little sense if she was supposedly taking Tier 5 blows like nothing not even a few seconds ago (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 8)
Was not expecting the Overlords to rack up more anti-feats than I.M.P lol, that is pretty funny
That said, these aren’t super critical to the argument and could be left out if need be, really just here for support.
This might not seem like a huge number of anti-feats compared to other series, but you have to factor in how little screentime (In regards to combat) the Overlords actually have.
And how, when they do get into fights, the anti-feats listed above tend to make up the conclusions, or at least a major part of said fights, which I’ll go into more below.
I will not be counting split second fights like Zestial's match against Pentious and Baxter or Prick and Hatchet's scuffle.
Husk and Cherri vs. Valentino: While it was initially Husk solo vs. Val, once Cherri joined and they figured out how to close the distance, they completely beat Val down, with Cherri (Who's not an Overlord) doing the bulk of the beatdown, bruising and even drawing blood from Val. [CHECK CHERRI SECTION FOR MORE INFO]
Vox makes a crater - 0.05168336372610001 Tons of TNT (Small Building level)
Frankly, all of this circles back to the fact that, while Overlords are stronger than regular Sinners, they are never portrayed as these invincible and untouchable deities the profiles would led you to believe. This is most evident when we compare them to the one group that is treated that way in Hazbin; the Exorcists.
Just proposing the idea of fighting the angels was seen as laughable back in S1, an entire episode had to be dedicated to secure weapons capable of harming them.
Nothing even remotely similar happens with the Vees. In fact, Vaggi and Charlie, who have no knowledge of Nifty’s former status, assigned her on security duty against Vox.
And nowhere is this clearer than with Cherri Bomb.
I think this scene speaks for itself (Here's a youtube link if the imgur one doesn't work)
After Husk restrains Valentino with his rings, Cherri (Who's currently 9-B) proceeds to wail on him, bruising and even drawing blood from the supposed Tier 5.
The original thread argues she shouldn’t scale because,
As for the claim that her bomb “did no damage” to Valentino, that seems entirely based on the lack of visible bruising (If so, Ig none of Husk's attacks did anything to Val). Yet he still groans in pain and Cherri attempts to finish him off by shoving a bomb into his face. The framing makes it pretty clear that her bombs are a legitimate threat to him.
Now regarding "Angel Dust is stronger than her," not really?
Cherri is blindsided by a hypnotized Angel and knocked down by an attack she clearly didn't expect. He then restrains and strangles her using his extra arms, which she breaks free from within seconds. The only reason she fails to immediately retaliate is because Angel’s body proportions give him longer reach.
Even then, so what if Angel scales to Cherri? The issue isn’t whether Overlords are stronger, it's whether the gap is absurdly massive (Which this scene clearly doesn’t support).
Is it a unique or exceptional incident?
Yes, undoubtedly so. Before Might of Lilith (the doomsday weapon) overloads, Carmilla warns Vox that if he fires it again, it will blow and "take you, us and half the Pentagram with it." Vox then attempts to fire it again, fails and causes it to overload. Charlie suggests to evacuate but Carmilla responds with resignation, saying it’s no use.
That response makes no sense for someone who's 1/14th of the power of that explosion, surviving an explosion will always be leagues lower than the AP of the explosion itself, even just being a meter from the epicenter can divide the durability needed to tank it by 16. Yet she treats the blast as something that would unquestionably kill them all.
That and as they keep repeating "Everyone dies if we don't do this!" Hard to have a Season 3 when the entire cast is dead. What's PIS again?
Is the event unexplained and unjustified?
Actually.
Why it's NOT an Outlier
In the very first scene of the series, Charlie narrates the history of Hell and states the following.
Note Hazbin is diegetically a musical and singing has already played a narrative role back in S1, with Charlie singing being the thing that gets the Cannibals to join her side.
So is it really far-fetched, to take the creators on their word when they state that the singing in 'Hear My Hope' served a purpose in the plot,
and that it's straight-up them manifesting power (In a very literal way) to achieve a certain goal,
that when they perform something that is a gazillion times over their usual power, it's actually affecting their power?
Especially in this case, the barrier they form doesn't just instantly poof into existence, but gradually builds up the more they sing and outright stagnates when they're not.
A common response to this is, "if this amp exists, why don’t they abuse it constantly in combat?"
It may simply be impractical to sing and fight at the same time, perhaps there's a certain mechanic to it that makes it require multiple singers, maybe they need to be "in perfect harmony" (as the show puts it) or maybe the characters are just dumb, this is the series where a character didn't realize Angels could be harmed, despite being an angel who was.
The intricacies of the mechanics really doesn't matter. We know they're stronger than normal. That's all that matters.
Removal of Low 5-B (Not Lucifer)
The current interpretation for the build up of the barrier, that it’s merely accumulating power over time, doesn’t align with what we see on-screen. As mentioned earlier, the barrier visibly stagnates during Lute’s intermission and even shrinks afterward. This detail was very much intentional.
All in all, I’m completely fine with either treating it as an outlier or listing it under a specific music amp, as long as it doesn't scale to their base.
And to keep things organized, I’d like to avoid discussing the Overlord's new tier here (So no Vox should downscale to Alastor and Shok.wav stuff), I'll make another thread for that after this one. This one is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
I'll be taking a look at this at some point. Hopefully at least after Tuesday cause I got a shit ton of work till then. I'll probably agree with a good portion of it, but still wanna give it a good read.
It's not dura neg? It still needs to overcome her Durability to erase her. And as an explosion, it'd have to be significantly stronger than her to do so.
Angelic magic doesn't negate durability, but it surpasses demonic magic by an unknown level. Adding to that the fact that the explosion already had more than a One Shot value above the Overlords' power, it's completely plausible that everyone there would have died.
Just to be clear, I disagree with everything in the CRT except the timing logic for creating the barrier; that really doesn't make any sense in the context of the scene.
I also disagree with everything except the timing, I always thought it was obvious it worked like a minecraft bed, you need all players or it shows how many are missing
It's not dura neg? It still needs to overcome her Durability to erase her. And as an explosion, it'd have to be significantly stronger than her to do so.
Angelic magic doesn't negate durability, but it surpasses demonic magic by an unknown level. Adding to that the fact that the explosion already had more than a One Shot value above the Overlords' power, it's completely plausible that everyone there would have died.
Feel like there's been a misunderstandment somewhere
No one is arguing that Carmilla is stronger than Lucifer, in fact I'm the saying the idea that they're relative at all is absurd given her reaction to his explosion.
Feel like there's been a misunderstandment somewhere
No one is arguing that Carmilla is stronger than Lucifer, in fact I'm the saying the idea that they're relative at all is absurd given her reaction to his explosion.
Vaggi not punting a dent into MoL with her Angelic Spear kills it.
My point is, the advantage of Angelic Power against Demonic Power can be so great that even a character of equal tier can be easily defeated. And that doesn't mean Carmilla is equal to Lucifer.
Adding to that the already significant difference between Lucifer and the rest of the cast, it's pointless to argue that an explosion not shown on screen killing everyone within its radius makes no senseake sense.
Edit - Furthermore, when Adam used his divine light with his angelic weapon, he extinguished Alastor's magic. Considering that Lucifer is stronger, and that the explosion occurs due to the overloading of MoL, which is made of angelic metal, it could replicate this effect.
My point is, the advantage of Angelic Power against Demonic Power can be so great that even a character of equal tier can be easily defeated. And that doesn't mean Carmilla is equal to Lucifer.
Adding to that the already significant difference between Lucifer and the rest of the cast, it's pointless to argue that an explosion not shown on screen killing everyone within its radius makes no senseake sense.
Edit - Furthermore, when Adam used his divine light with his angelic weapon, he extinguished Alastor's magic. Considering that Lucifer is stronger, and that the explosion occurs due to the overloading of MoL, which is made of angelic metal, it could replicate this effect.
The advantage Angelic Power has over demons is that it can null their regen, it's far-fetched to say it can kill demons regardless of how weak it is, in fact we even have a counterexample with Nifty. Alastor is also a specific case, his powers are directly tied to his staff. It wasn't due to Adam hitting him with Holy Light that he lost his powers, anything that would've broken his staff would've done the same.
Popping in to say: If Angelic Steel dura negged and everything, it'd obviously be immune to it's own shit since if it wasn't, forging the stuff would be impossible. And we're not giving every Excorcist magic, are we? Or giving Carmilla Angelic Magic for being able to make a weapon out of it?
Read the crt, skimmed the thread. My general philosophy when discussing outlier stuff is to go with whatever line of scaling forces you to ignore the least amount of feats (with some acknowledgment to what's narratively important). I think overlords being tier whatever normally, tier 5 with their singing magic seems like a wonderful solution. But if push comes to shove, I'd rather the feat be thrown out then have it just be their default statistic, holly molly is that a lot of anti-feats
The current interpretation for the build up of the barrier, that it’s merely accumulating power over time, doesn’t align with what we see on-screen. As mentioned earlier, the barrier visibly stagnates during Lute’s intermission and even shrinks afterward. This detail was very much intentional.
Because it breaks the rules against Calc Staking. It made sense when the whole thing was about stopping the explosion that would've destroyed half of Pentagram City because that was the feat. Now, not so much.
A shark's bite is its strongest attack, in addition to having piercing AP, and yet Shock.Wav didn't rip off Alastor's arm. So yes, a weakened Alastor scales with Shock.Wav.
I don’t really understand the comparison you're trying to make here? Instead of working like an explosion, you think it'd work like... another explosion?
Or is this about the AoE discrepancy? Cause if so, DB has an actual mechanic explaining so, that being Ki Control. Hazbin has no such thing. And like, even in DB, the more condensed the Ki the more powerful the blast is, that's why the Kamehameha, Dodon-Pa or any other special beam attack is vastly stronger than any ordinary strike.
Not a fan with dismissing Carmilla's assessment either, this is the same person who knew exact moment her weapon would overload.
Plus, how does her not knowing it's Lucifer's power, help your argument at all? Doesn't it straight-up weaken it?
Under your logic, this supposed 5-B thought a regular 6-C explosion would unquestionably kill her and that escape was pointless. Like huh?
I don't see how guns in animation being often portrayed as more explosive than they are IRL (This isn’t unique to Hazbin) is a get-out-of-jail-free card when we also have countless examples of those same guns failing to get past metal surfaces like cars, cages, etc.
I don't know why we're acting like guns are the only anti-feats they have either, it's a single anti-feat among many.
We literally have one of the supposed 5-Bs failing to get past a wall. Like I can't stress how insane that is for a 5-B lol
What City Block stuff??? Shok.wav? The shark who the two strongest Sinners in their Demons Forms (And have no scaling to any other Overlords) could do nothing to?
And to repeat it again, I'll provide a rating for the Overlords in Part 2, this thread is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
And again I want to emphasize that the only two people who might scale to Shok.wav are Demon Form W!Alastor and 100% Approval Vox, both of which are the 1# and 2# of all Sinners in Hell, with the other Vees only scaling point being the fact that they could scratch BASE W!Alastor's cheek.
But we're delving into "What's the Overlord new Tier" talk so I'll just leave it as that.
It's really just that we sometimes ignore anti-feats like that when a Tier has a lot of backup, see Danganronpa with its 4 Tier 7 feats across multiple games and such.
In Hazbin's case, their Tier is based on a single dubious feat that isn't even internally consistent with itself.
Allow me to clarify some things that I feel are pertinent:
I don't actually agree that anyone should scale to the MoL in AP at all due to how god tier Lucifer is portrayed as (aside from some no duhs like Sera as possibly)
shock.wave should be a good reinforcement for 8-B to 8-A overlords, although there HAS to be something for town (I hope)
Even IF the mid-tiers scaled to the MoL, the oneshot multiplier on this site is 8x, the blast would be 14x anyone there, so I think that solves the issue
about the whole inverse square law, I brought up Vegeta because his "Explosion" was one consistent energy wave, the center just as powerful as the edge (or at least not that much weaker), and people like Adam never seem to show any damage falloff, so why would an explosion caused by angelic energy be any different?
The Carmilla thing isn't against my point, as I don't think the overlords are truly planetary
Angel actually supports this as Vox seemingly struggled here, Val has something similar in the music video for Addicted
Alastor wasn't even trying to fight Shock.wav, just running, so we don't really know how he scales aside from the bite he took, and the hit Vox took, there is literally no time you can point out where Al attacked Shock.wav
That should be most of the things that either have relevance for the previous arguments, or the OP in question.
About bullets, it's piercing damage at play. I think somebody once make a try to see how much durable someone would need to be to have bullets bounce off them and it dropped an 8-A result or something like that.
Anyways, getting to the thread, whereas I see from where OP comes from, this wiki does has a background to let fiction be fiction with certain stuff. I remeber this happened with Ben 10 going back and forth with Tier 7, to tier 8/9 (because of several visible tier 9/8 anti-feats) and now Stinkfly sits at Tier 4? I do think this wiki does has a pretty wide leeway.
Cuz those things were addressed back then with heavy blogs Zamasu, Green and Reiner had multiple threads going with this back then also Classic cast is not scaling to tier 4 and AF will get downgraded to tier 5 already
