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Project Moon Discussion 2

DMUA said:
not even flavor text, random attack names. It's made incredibly clear by the story that Araya's quantum entanglement is screwing with her consciousness and ability to really understand what's going on. It jettisons her out of current moments, it doesn't give her insights into the future until she's severed by Arayashiki and she can see her whole life more clearly. An attack name being labelled "You have failed to stop the future" is an insanely weak foundation to say otherwise (And afterimage of the future is just like... even trying to take it at completely face value, we SEE her make afterimages with her blows, that has nothing to do with precognition)
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It's 1 attack name and 1 passive, and you nd I both know that those names are not random. It's true that Araya's Temporal Entanglement does mess with her consciousness that which is probably why she isn't able to make proper use of her Precognition. Also her "From Dawn til Dusk" passive also has this description: "The past, the present, the future—the myriad moments converge together, rendering the distinction of time meaningless. Youthful and aged selves alike are pulled into the here and now from every point along the continuum of time."
 
MysticBrawler said:
It's 1 attack name and 1 passive, and you nd I both know that those names are not random.
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Compared to the entire story around it, and all the other attack names around it? Yeah, I'd think that is a random place to say they can actually use precognition, actually.
MysticBrawler said:
It's true that Araya's Temporal Entanglement does mess with her consciousness that which is probably why she isn't able to make proper use of her Precognition.
Click to expand...
Let's read Precognition, shall we?
Precognition is the ability to know the future. Characters with this ability can, through varying means, accurately predict future events.
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Now, I think those words are important. Precognition is about gaining future information in the present, and implies that you can act on it for strategies or combat. Neither characters that are temporally omnipresent nor characters that can time travel are given this ability despite objectively being able to exist in the future and perceive events, because they don't innately use it for those purposes (Or maybe can't, for one reason or another)

So what exactly about her state of temporal entanglement is actually the ability to know the future? Especially when we actively see her seemingly have a revelation about what the future was meant to be after she's severed by Arayashiki and experiences a radical change in her existence?
MysticBrawler said:
"The past, the present, the future—the myriad moments converge together, rendering the distinction of time meaningless. Youthful and aged selves alike are pulled into the here and now from every point along the continuum of time."
Click to expand...
What about "The distinction of time becoming meaningless" including the past implies, much less actually states, that she can coherently see the future and use that information properly?
 
DMUA said:
Compared to the entire story around it, and all the other attack names around it? Yeah, I'd think that is a random place to say they can actually use precognition, actually.

Let's read Precognition, shall we?

Now, I think those words are important. Precognition is about gaining future information in the present, and implies that you can act on it for strategies or combat. Neither characters that are temporally omnipresent nor characters that can time travel are given this ability despite objectively being able to exist in the future and perceive events, because they don't innately use it for those purposes (Or maybe can't, for one reason or another)

So what exactly about her state of temporal entanglement is actually the ability to know the future? Especially when we actively see her seemingly have a revelation about what the future was meant to be after she's severed by Arayashiki and experiences a radical change in her existence?

What about "The distinction of time becoming meaningless" including the past implies, much less actually states, that she can coherently see the future and use that information properly?
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So what your saying is that even if Araya could see the future it still shouldn't be indexed since she can't make proper use of it?
 
Yes.
 
First_Witch said:
...? Yes there is? The lack of proof that they are? Because the claim "relativistic bullets" I reckon is quite extraordinary, to the point that it requires adequate proof even.

I made this point because your rebuttal alone, EVEN IF IT WERE UNCONTESTABLE, would not solve the whole situation. This scaling is shaky on so many different fronts its actually crazy.

1. Its ambigious as ****. It relies on assumption due to its nature as a offscreen feat. Matthias could have won this fight in different ways that would not end up in a speed upscale the size of a small moon.

2. Guns. Guns are a narrative soft cap that needs to be adressed. Saying that guns are possibly rel because they are capable of tagging rel god tiers as a counterargument to the initial argument being "guns of unknown speed, possibly of, sit down for that, GUN SPEED, being able to tag supposed Rel speed characters, whose correct rating are still being determined BTW, is a significant counter to that proposed rating and that needs to be disproven", is a argumentation so circular you could call it a Pi argument. Its so Pi you could take it to a birthday party.

3. Its a massive outlier. Like guys, what is the next closest feat to it? Is the concept of inconsistency just not applicable anymore? There is a 87x difference between the highest point of massively hypersonic, where some calcs are (And even that rating i find grossly high) vs the lowest point of relativistic. 87x! Not from a narrativly important scene, not from a major fight, no, from a offscreen feat.

4. It causes scaling issues. There has been no actual arguments as to why some guns could supposedly shoot faster than others. No, let me correct myself, its obvious that some more advanced and stronger guns shoot faster than others. BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT REL TO SONIC SPEEDS. So unless we can live with Thumb goons being able to shoot at Rel speeds, or heck even sub rel if we operate under "better gun = faster gun" and thus ANY SEMI COMPETENT CHARACTER BEING SUB REL AT THE BARE MINIMUM.

Like I'm not even arguing that rel PMoon is impossible, but can we at least have a proper feat to go off of first???
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You continue to misrepresent my point.
I was refuting the argument that "they are not subluminal because they can be shot at with a gun," not "whether their speeds are comparable to those not generally considered subluminal, yet the evidence is strong enough to warrant considering them subluminal."
 
Onyoury said:
You continue to misrepresent my point.
I was refuting the argument that "they are not subluminal because they can be shot at with a gun," not "whether their speeds are comparable to those not generally considered subluminal, yet the evidence is strong enough to warrant considering them subluminal."
Click to expand...
Your refutation boils down to "Guns could be Rel because no direct proof against it exist". Which is like, not how arguing works. If someone claim something, they have to proof it. I dont have to proof that guns are probably gun speed. You have to proof that they are Rel. Tagging characters that are maybe rel is not proof. See my argument about circularity.
 
First_Witch said:
Your refutation boils down to "Guns could be Rel because no direct proof against it exist". Which is like, not how arguing works. If someone claim something, they have to proof it. I dont have to proof that guns are probably gun speed. You have to proof that they are Rel. Tagging characters that are maybe rel is not proof. See my argument about circularity.
Click to expand...
I thought you are done with PM powerscaling 🗿
 

Well this is probably non-canon so not really usable for anything, but man this was some Peak animations.
 
First_Witch said:
Your refutation boils down to "Guns could be Rel because no direct proof against it exist". Which is like, not how arguing works. If someone claim something, they have to proof it. I dont have to proof that guns are probably gun speed. You have to proof that they are Rel. Tagging characters that are maybe rel is not proof. See my argument about circularity.
Click to expand...
You keep creating straw men. Stop trying to educate others.

I simply argued that the fact that bullets are effective doesn't justify Roland's failure to reach subluminal speed.
Whether Mathias's feat suffices for subluminal speed is a completely different matter, and I have never affirmed that it does.
Therefore, you are still distorting my argument.
 
Onyoury said:
You keep creating straw men. Stop trying to educate others.
Click to expand...
How can you claim this, but then repeat the point that affirms my argument?
Onyoury said:
I simply argued that the fact that bullets are effective doesn't justify Roland's failure to reach subluminal speed.
Click to expand...
It does though. It literally does. For it to not disqualify, the guns would have to be demonstrably Rel or in the ballpark. Being tagged by something hundreds of time slower literally disqualifies you to be the proposed rating.
Onyoury said:
Whether Mathias's feat suffices for subluminal speed is a completely different matter, and I have never affirmed that it does.
Click to expand...
This shit does not exist in a vacuum. It is not a different matter at all, its one of the basis for this ludicrously high rating in the first place.
Onyoury said:
Therefore, you are still distorting my argument.
Click to expand...
Then make a actual coherent argument
 
@Onyoury
Bro stop bringing this debate again, it's already been done before you replied to Witchy once more

It could be just me but I'm tired seeing the back and forth argument about the guns and speed stuffs
 
First_Witch said:
This shit does not exist in a vacuum. It is not a different matter at all, its one of the basis for this ludicrously high rating in the first place.

Then make a actual coherent argument
Click to expand...
This debate is so tiresome. It's the same old logic over and over again.
I said from the beginning that I disagreed with the claim that Mathias's feat was close to the speed of light.
I simply said that your "justification for Roland's failure to reach sublight speed was the fact that the bullet was effective" was wrong.
 
Onyoury said:
This debate is so tiresome. It's the same old logic over and over again.
Click to expand...
This has not been a debate. There has been no logic to it
Onyoury said:
I simply said that your "justification for Roland's failure to reach sublight speed was the fact that the bullet was effective" was wrong.
Click to expand...
But it is not wrong. And I have explained multiple times already why this is. "Over and over again" but you keep repeating this trite nonsense over and over yourself. Make a actual argument or disengage from the topic.
 
First_Witch said:
This has not been a debate. There has been no logic to it

But it is not wrong. And I have explained multiple times already why this is. "Over and over again" but you keep repeating this trite nonsense over and over yourself. Make a actual argument or disengage from the topic.
Click to expand...
No offense witchy but it seems you gotten too harsh on him, but then again it might be because the way you worded make me see you as harsh so my bad if I take what you said wrong lel
 
First_Witch said:
It was meant to harsh
Click to expand...
Damn, I was right then
I already told him to just stop but he doesn't listen, and let's be honest, this debate has gotten tiresome, don't you think? If he's still keep debating with your latest comment above then there's something need be done
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
Damn, I was right then
I already told him to just stop but he doesn't listen, and let's be honest, this debate has gotten tiresome, don't you think? If he's still keep debating with your latest comment above then there's something need be done
Click to expand...
I'm tired of hearing this guy's nonsense over and over again, but I don't think there's a need to force this conversation to stop.
 
Hi hello everyone

Just finished lobcorp and library

Only distord detective and Leviathan left before reading limbus right?
 
Ubdon said:
Hi hello everyone

Just finished lobcorp and library

Only distord detective and Leviathan left before reading limbus right?
Click to expand...
Ehhh, it's good to read those but you can enjoy limbus without needing to read those novels with the exception being Leviathan
 
Cuz it's name is kinda reference to Roland going insane and Angelica never shown to use it
 
Ubdon said:
I was curious recently (today)

Does angelica know furioso?
Click to expand...
Probably not. It's specifically a Roland reference, plus Roland himself has the Orlando passive that goes with that. "Orland Furioso"

And Rien was specifically made to copy Roland hence why he got Furioso. Heck, Rien Sang mentions "copying" a passionate heart in reference to Roland before using the 2nd variant of his.
Ubdon said:
Btw. Do we know how strong Roland without his gloves and keypages? Is it grade 1
Click to expand...
Roland and Angelia (before becoming a Colour) were both elite Grade 1 Fixers like all Fixers of Charles' Office. Though in terms of strength, he was basically at the level of a "Colour". Colours being Grade 1 Fixers who just passed the examination for it.
 
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