Undertale Calculations - 90% of them are wrong

[Rodriiogo]

Still not question that should be solved by CGM.

Pretty sure it very easily should be considering how inconsistent it is but as I said, whatever, if anything a CGM can correct me on this.

I am just saying that you are digging too deep by thinking about why even motionless legs do damage to us. In many games just being in contact with enemy is enough to get damage.

Yea, and in those games we don't assume that if the enemy moves at supersonic speeds its large building level damage now. You have to think logically when applying KE, just as you say it ain't that deep I can as equally say Magic has never been equated to "ATK + KE" as "it's not that deep". It has always been just ATK, KE was never shown to be a factor so the damage being equal when fast as when still is indeed a straight up inconsistency with no support.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yea, and in those games we don't assume that if the enemy moves at supersonic speeds its large building level damage now

Referring to KE rules.

Waiting for other CGM opinions. And recalcs evaluatiom

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yea, and in those games we don't assume that if the enemy moves at supersonic speeds its large building level damage now

No, KE rules aren't that restrictive. You are deadass arguing that we shouldn't use any KE calculation, essentially due to existence of contact damage(again purely gameplay mechanic, Frisk wouldn't actually receive any damage if they just touched motionless monsters). Besides, verse not having clear correlation between power and speed is not overall disqualifier of KE calcs, only disqualifier for certain type of calcs. Current calc, and all others KE and LS don't require for verse to have a such clear correlation to be valid. They are valid by current standarts, period.
We recently had CRT about Naruto you linked(should lifting 1 kg sword at relativistic speed give you Moon level LS). Staff decided that verse doesn't have sufficient correlation between speed and power. Does it mean that all KE calcs are invalid now? No. Why? Again, proving correlation between power and speed inverse is needed only for certain type of calcs.
There were also concerns about outlier in relation to that feat and many other KE feats, but they are not relevant here. Mettaton recalc is x4.8 higher than current best feat(Frisk receiving no damage from explosion). Every monster upscales from this feat, Mettaton Ex is one of the strongest monsters ingame(only behind Undyne and boss monsters).

Esteemed CGMs can decide that current KE rules are too relaxing, and we should be more restrictive towards them, and current KE calcs of the verse should be gutted. It is absolutely normal position. But such things shouldn't be discussed here, but in distinct Staff Discussion, since changing them would change situation for almost any verse in site. This is not place for such a discussion.

Pretty sure it very easily should be considering how inconsistent it is but as I said, whatever, if anything a CGM can correct me on this.

This is not about consistency at all. Inconsistency is when different panels show same objects at totally different size. This is not our case. We can see Mettaton attack legs and his actual legs at same time, and we can clearly see that his actual legs are much smaller. Are attack legs his actual legs(so they shouldn't be bigger than them) or not(so they can be much bigger than them) is important question. But it's not about unreliable pixelscaling, it's about questions such as "How much battlebox is diegetical", and it's not sphere of expertise of CGM.

Still waiting for CGM opinion(mostly on whether they should overhaul KE rules), and recalcs evaluation( Mettaton recalc , ice cap recalc , shaking building, and some other quick, but very important calcs)

 

[Rodriiogo]

No, KE rules aren't that restrictive. You are deadass arguing that we shouldn't use any KE calculation, essentially due to existence of contact damage(again purely gameplay mechanic, Frisk wouldn't actually receive any damage if they just touched motionless monsters). Besides, verse not having clear correlation between power and speed is not overall disqualifier of KE calcs, only disqualifier for certain type of calcs. Current calc, and all others KE and LS don't require for verse to have a such clear correlation to be valid. They are valid by current standarts, period.

I don't know why you're still saying that when I already explained it to you a total of 5 TIMES that just because something isn't written out on the page doesn't mean it isn't a disqualifier, a CGM (Joakin) even came here and told you that it is indeed a disqualifier if said Kinetic Energy is proved to not increase the potency of the attack in-verse, regardless of the size. The page is there to give you an idea of how the main rules work but you still need some logical and criticial thinking when applying kinetic energy to an attack. Going by "but the rules don't say that" is killing common sense.

I will tell you again, read the literally first part of the rule that you are copying from: "Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case", they then say examples on small objects yes but it DOES NOT stop there. They are giving you examples, and so is the "Speed can be used to find KE when" and "Speed cannot be used to find KE when" sections. They are EXAMPLES, not all possibilities. Your "giant" rule in "can be used" is an example where its regularly valid to do it, however it will vary from situation to situation, not ALL giants over 200kg will be valid for KE depending on other factors, here with Mettaton, regardless if you are inflating the values for him to be 6x over his regular size for no reason other than overscaling, it's a completely different situation where KE is just invalid via multiple other factors of logic within our rules and basic common sense.

We recently had CRT about Naruto you linked(should lifting 1 kg sword at relativistic speed give you Moon level LS). Staff decided that verse doesn't have sufficient correlation between speed and power. Does it mean that all KE calcs are invalid now? No. Why? Again, proving correlation between power and speed inverse is needed only for certain type of calcs.

This is not about "proving the correlation". This is about, alongside all the other issues with the calc that wank it to be even close to valid named on OP, there's a direct contradiction to that correlation which is a completely different story, if such a thing exists then it is no longer about said "giant or not" it's "KE is literally a non-factor here, why are we using it?".

Esteemed CGMs can decide that current KE rules are too relaxing, and we should be more restrictive towards them, and current KE calcs of the verse should be gutted. It is absolutely normal position. But such things shouldn't be discussed here, but in distinct Staff Discussion, since changing them would change situation for almost any verse in site. This is not place for such a discussion.

This is already something done in the current KE rules because it is quite literally just common sense. And yes the current KE calcs of the verse should be gutted, or at least alot of them should. I point that out IN THE OP by saying Sans's Bones KE and Papyrus's lifting bone strength KE calc should likely also be completely removed by the same reason Mettaton's would aswell. These all make no sense within the verse, this is the definition of overscaling a verse because "why not" and ignore what it's actually being portrayed/showed, which I can tell you, is not KE.
Also even if they are kept, both Dale and Life of King already explained how UES doesn't mean you can apply that lifting strength to their physicals etc.

This is not about consistency at all. Inconsistency is when different panels show same objects at totally different size. This is not our case. We can see Mettaton attack legs and his actual legs at same time, and we can clearly see that his actual legs are much smaller. Are attack legs his actual legs(so they shouldn't be bigger than them) or not(so they can be much bigger than them) is important question. But it's not about unreliable pixelscaling, it's about questions such as "How much battlebox is diegetical", and it's not sphere of expertise of CGM.

Again, they are representations of his legs or magic versions of his legs that he summoned, either example gives the same concluson that saying they are 6x bigger than his legs is a complete strech. A regular CGM can tell you "why are you using density of his regular leg with electronics/devices etc inside it for a magical leg" or "why are you pixel scaling this leg size via the soul when you literally have views of the same type of leg on the otherworld". The whole calc is inflating values via an inconsistent powerscaling method (battle box) so it's wrong regardless, it's that simple.
Objects are consistently shown to be a different size in the battle box, this is a matter of completely banning pixel scaling battle box scaling unless there's no other way (Ex: Pyrope's bomb). Not even touching on the fact that souls themselves have inconsistent sizes throughout the game. This is indeed a consistency issue in the pixel scaling of the verse.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Also just to point out EVEN FURTHER how the pixel scaling is completely broken and you are wrong on "We can see Mettaton attack legs and his actual legs at same time, and we can clearly see that his actual legs are much smaller."

Spoiler: PixelScaling1

If we go by full on battle sizes, using the "696.34cm" for the attack leg the current calc uses via comparing it to the soul, Mettaton's actual leg is 378.5cm long.

Keep in mind he is in a different distance/scenario of the screen compared to the leg, aka hes more to the back scenario/far away, so in reality the legs "on-screen" would indeed be around the same size. But for the sake of the argument let's assume that they are in the same scenario somehow.

You are probably curious why I pixel scaled the chest and head aswell, well, if we cut to actual overworld perspective:

Spoiler: PixelScaling2

Frisk who we currently accept as 137cm in height is almost the same height as said chest and head together, if we go by battle sizes then using that awful pixel scaling leg, Frisk would be OVER 3.59 METERS TALL. And you can see if we use our 137cm accepted size, the height and chest goes all the way down to only 1.55m, and the legs would be even smaller.

The pixel scaling is indeed inconsistent in battle, any CGM can see this immediatly. (Don't try to pull the "but the monsters size is inconsistent in the battle" since you are the one that just tried saying "We can see Mettaton attack legs and his actual legs at same time, and we can clearly see that his actual legs are much smaller." and by that logic the legs (and any attacks really) should also have inconsistent size.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I don't know why you're still saying that when I already explained it to you a total of 5 TIMES that just because something isn't written out on the page doesn't mean it isn't a disqualifier

Won't comment further on this, just waiting for CGM opinion.

there's a direct contradiction

And that contradiction entirely stems from the fact that contact damage is gameplay mechanic in UT. Contradiction entirely relays on existence of contact damage(purely gameplay mechanic, that exists across many genres and games). I can provide example of Silksong, where Hornet often receives same damage from touching enemy and by being hit by enemy at full speed (just example, HK IIRC doesn't use any KE calcs, but many verses who have such mechanic do have such calcs).
You can at this point downgrade every video game verse with fall damage(gameplay mechanic) to 9-B. What is actually difference between this and your reasoning?

I point that out IN THE OP by saying Sans's Bones KE and Papyrus's lifting bone strength KE calc should likely also be completely removed by the same reason Mettaton's would aswell

I don't care about Sans KE. What are problems with Papyrus calc? We know that his "bones" are separate from him. Calc just calculates how much big bone weighs, and how much force Papyrus would need to exert to move it. What problems are with it? Or are you geniunely trying to gut every LS and KE calc because of existence of contact damage(gameplay mechanics), and existence of such mechanics ingame(which doesn't actually exists in verse, Frisk won't get damaged if he just touches enemy) disqualifies from any type of KE calculation?

Also even if they are kept, both Dale and Life of King already explained how UES doesn't mean you can apply that lifting strength to their physicals etc.

With all due respect to both of them, TK LS applying to physical LS was accepted long ago by staff. If you disagree with this notion, make separate CRT and debunk it. It's obviously not jurisdiction of CGM to decide how verse specific UES works.

Also just to point out EVEN FURTHER how the pixel scaling is

I again only see arguments about diegeticity of battlebox. Everything you laid out is downstream of this question. And this question should be handled in different place

 

[Rodriiogo]

And that contradiction entirely stems from the fact that contact damage is gameplay mechanic in UT. Contradiction entirely relays on existence of contact damage(purely gameplay mechanic, that exists across many genres and games). I can provide example of Silksong, where Hornet often receives same damage from touching enemy and by being hit by enemy at full speed (just example, HK IIRC doesn't use any KE calcs, but many verses who have such mechanic do have such calcs).
You can at this point downgrade every video game verse with fall damage(gameplay mechanic) to 9-B. What is actually difference between this and your reasoning?

AGAIN. If the game mechanic/intent was to fully rely on ATK, then using KE is just inflating the numbers, there's a reason HK as you said doesn't use KE despite "dashes at full speed" existing, even if the enemies were now the size of planets, KE would not be usable regardless because of stuff you just said about it's damage.
The difference between here and your example is that you pointed out an anti-feat when I'm pointing out a wrong calculation. Anti-Feats can be ignored if there's obvious contradictions to such a tier, a calculation using faulty and inconsistent reasoning isn't something you can just ignore, especially when said calculation's basis is "it moves fast" and give no evidence of said intent by the game or author when there's contradictions to it. This is not at all the same thing lol, if Toby came out and said, or there was some random info dump in the game, that kinetic energy is a factor in their attack's power then sure that contradiction could be ignored, there isn't so there's just contradictions and no supporting evidence so it can't be ignored like a" fall" anti-feat can.

I don't care about Sans KE. What are problems with Papyrus calc? We know that his "bones" are separate from him. Calc just calculates how much big bone weighs, and how much force Papyrus would need to exert to move it. What problems are with it? Or are you geniunely trying to gut every LS and KE calc because of existence of contact damage(gameplay mechanics), and existence of such mechanics ingame(which doesn't actually exists in verse, Frisk won't get damaged if he just touches enemy) disqualifies from any type of KE calculation?

"gameplay mechanics" I won't explain it again. This is indeed a disqualification, justifying everything to "game mechanics" while trying to use PHYSICS TO INFLATE THE VERSE'S AP is funny. Why is the speed of the attack not just a game mechanic as well? Do you have any evidence that KE was a factor or intent in Undertale? Or is it just based on vibes even though theres contradictions that you keep tryna justify by saying "game mechanics" with no basis?

With all due respect to both of them, TK LS applying to physical LS was accepted long ago by staff. If you disagree with this notion, make separate CRT and debunk it. It's obviously not jurisdiction of CGM to decide how verse specific UES works.

Go back to the second page of this thread and see for yourself.

I again only see arguments about diegeticity of battlebox. Everything you laid out is downstream of this question. And this question should be handled in different place

I was debunking your idea of "We can see Mettaton attack legs and his actual legs at same time, and we can clearly see that his actual legs are much smaller." by showing it to you that on-screen that's not true at all. Mettaton's "actual legs" while in a much further back scenario of the screen was still only around 1.84x smaller. So that point you made was indeed wrong, I just took that argument to my advantage to explain even further to the CGMs reading how bad the pixel scaling is.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Go back to the second page of this thread and see for yourself.

Calc group discussion thread is last place where "would TK LS scale to physical LS in verse" should he discussed. CGMs opinion on this question is no different than opinion of blue users. This question should be handled in CRT, period. This thread is about calcs, not scaling.

gameplay mechanics" I won't explain it again. This is indeed a disqualification, justifying everything to "game mechanics" while trying to use PHYSICS TO INFLATE THE VERSE'S AP is funny. Why is the speed of the attack not just a game mechanic as well?

We justify many things with game mechanics. We still calculate KE for verses with FTL movements(as long as particular object speed isn't FTL).

"Why is the speed of the attack not just a game mechanic as well"
You probably should get a rest, since this particular sentence is meaningless(what could it possibly means for speed to be gameplay mechanics????). I can say why contact damage is gameplay mechanic(touching motionless enemy inverse won't damage Frisk, while it does during the battle, and this is widespread gameplay mechanic). I don't think you could what you mean by "speed being gameplay mechanic".

there's a reason HK as you said doesn't use KE despite "dashes at full speed" existing,

HK doesn't have KE calcs, because it doesn't good KE calcs. There are plenty of verses, that have contact damage and use KE calcs.

Mettaton's "actual legs" while in a much further back scenario of the screen was still only around 1.84x smaller.

And what exactly it proves

 

[Qurbonboev]

I would try to find more examples. But there are clear examples of speed and power being related. Similar to Dragon Ball Ki, having more Soulpower(UT UES) increases speed of character(not 1:1 as Ki though). Opponents in late game are faster than from early game, Omega Flowey blitzes main cast, and god tiers with their immeasurable speed

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There is the counter-example of Undyne, who when she refuses to die in Neutral becomes significantly faster than before, but starts only doing 1 damage. Also sans is there.

 

[Qurbonboev]

There is the counter-example of Undyne, who when she refuses to die in Neutral becomes significantly faster than before, but starts only doing 1 damage. Also sans is there.

Speed of danmaku can be wildly different than speed of character itself. You can create very difficult even with slow moving projectiles. So Undyne becaming weaker overall while having faster danmaky for one turn isn't really contradiction.
Sans is already accepted as sort of anomaly(it's not like AP and Speed increase being 1:1 is always correct for DB)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Alright, I feel y'all have said your piece and have started going in circles now and involving stuff that's not related to OP, so I advise you stop now and let the calc group members evaluate properly.

 

[Armorchompy]

Could I have a summary of the discussion so far?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Could I have a summary of the discussion so far?

I could try to summarise CGMs opinions, and main discussion points(but it would he incomplete)

Pyrope explosion:
Both CGM(Abaddon and Eljoaki) agree that it shouldn't be usable(20 PSI wasn't baseline for a long time)

Knight Knight Meteor
Both agree that Meteors are in fire due to Knight magic, not them being too fast

Ice cap ice
Abaddon agrees that freezing of the air should be used. My recalc tackles this problem

Undyne Owen explosion:
Eljoaki disagrees with it. Abaddon is neutral. OP is proposing alternative methods(not specifying exact methods)

Flowey elevator
Abaddon thinks that either timeframes are good enough. Eljoaki thinks that calc should be recalced via alternative methods, like shaking

Mettaton destroys a wall
Eljoaki: knowledgeable members of the verse should tackle it
Abaddon: it's fine

Main discussion is obviously Mettaton supersonic kicks
Eljoaki thinks it's flawed, but shouldn't be throwed away. Abaddon have issues with it, but seemingly main problems he have is a) using current speed of electricity and b) assuming 100% solid steel
I asked about what speed to use for electricity in staff thread, and you answered that using 556 is fine for now. Calc assuming 100% steel was already brought up as problem by you, and my recalc tackles this issue(by using density value you proposed).

Relevant posts:
Eljoaki opinion
Abaddon opinion
Abaddon clarification in regards with problems of Mettaton calc

Will post more detailed summary of Mettaton calc below, since this one is already too big

 

[Qurbonboev]

Op arguments against Mettaton kick calc:
1. Legs with which he attacks us are much bigger and longer than Mettaton actual legs.
Sups Counter: Sups argue that attack legs are separate from Mettaton actual legs. When Mettaton attacks with his heart we can clearly see that he is using his actual legs. When Asgore uses trident we can clearly see that he is using his actual trident, same for Undyne Spear. And most importantly such questions should be handled by stuff and knowledgeable members, not CGMs, since it involves questions like diegeticity of battlebox ( Eljoaki agrees that such questions isn't their jurisdictions)

2. Legs do same damage when they touch them while they aren't in motion, and when are moving.
Sups Counter: It mainly due to gameplay mechanic: contact damage. In many games touching enemy hitbox would automatically net you damage, most notable users of this mechanic are metroidvania(Metroid, Mario, HK, where enemies charging at your full speed deal same damage as when Knight/Hornet just touches them). This is popular mechanic in Bullet Hells too, when touching enemy bullets would always invariably deal you damage. Frisk wouldn't receive damage if they touched Mettaton legs when not in the battle. It dealing same damage is mostly due to Toby not having neither programming provess, nor time or resources to implement mechanics of damage being dependent on speed(I genuinely don't think many games outside of simulators have such mechanics).

3. Calcing KE feats such as it shouldn't be allowed unless verse has clear correlation between speed and power.
Sups counter: Our Kinetic energy feats rule state that proving such correlation is only required when you are trying to calculate specific type of feats(such as calculating KE of relativistic character, which would yield 7-A Energies even when most of verse showings is mostly below it). Mettaton calc is not such feat at all

4. Since verse apparently verse has one showing that contradicts relationship between speed and power in OP opinion(see above for motionless legs doing same damage), so no KE and LS feats for whole verse should be allowed
Sups counter: Not only this contradiction isn't real(see above), but:
a) Verse has showings of speed and power being related, when more powerful characters are more faster. Such evidence convinced staff that Soulpower is UES that increases both AP, LS and speed.
b) OP proposal is not only outrageously restrictive(OP is actually saying that Papyrus moving giant bone or Flowey moving elevator should be invalid now), it is not supported at all by our KE rules. I don't think there were any examples of such restriction in any verse, despite many verses having contradictions to speed ~ power correlation. I can provide example of recent Naruto CRT(that OP linked themselves) which was denied due to insufficient evidence (and sometimes contradictions) for speed~power. Yet, verse still has many LS and KE feats on page, since not having such clear correlation doesn't mean that verse should get rid of all KE and LS feats

 

[Armorchompy]

Op arguments against Mettaton kick calc:
1. Legs with which he attacks us are much bigger and longer than Mettaton actual legs.
Sups Counter: Sups argue that attack legs are separate from Mettaton actual legs. When Mettaton attacks with his heart we can clearly see that he is using his actual legs. When Asgore uses trident we can clearly see that he is using his actual trident, same for Undyne Spear. And most importantly such questions should be handled by stuff and knowledgeable members, not CGMs, since it involves questions like diegeticity of battlebox ( Eljoaki agrees that such questions isn't their jurisdictions)

I think the idea that Mettaton is just spawning giant legs into reality is a bit strange, maybe not wholly unjustified but very much a leap of logic. It doesn't super debunk the feat on its own but it certainly casts it into doubt.

2. Legs do same damage when they touch them while they aren't in motion, and when are moving.
Sups Counter: It mainly due to gameplay mechanic: contact damage. In many games touching enemy hitbox would automatically net you damage, most notable users of this mechanic are metroidvania(Metroid, Mario, HK, where enemies charging at your full speed deal same damage as when Knight/Hornet just touches them). This is popular mechanic in Bullet Hells too, when touching enemy bullets would always invariably deal you damage. Frisk wouldn't receive damage if they touched Mettaton legs when not in the battle. It dealing same damage is mostly due to Toby not having neither programming provess, nor time or resources to implement mechanics of damage being dependent on speed(I genuinely don't think many games outside of simulators have such mechanics).

I disagree with this counter, it's reading a lot into something being game mechanics (i.e. the game not actually simulating the KE) while also taking that same gameplay at face value (The legs are moving at a certain speed and doing that damage because of their KE rather than inherent properties) to actually make this into a feat.

Undertale magic attacks consistently hurt regardless of their speed and KE. Look at Froggit who just spawns slow-moving flies at you and still manages to do damage, or Whimsun or so many other enemies that do seemingly harmless attacks only to still hurt. This isn't a question of Toby being unable/unwilling to program the legs to do damage only when they're moving, it's clearly intentional that they hurt no matter what, it's important to the fight's design even. Really the fact that they're even moving fast is a construct made up by the calc, they're fairly slow in gameplay, the electricity just so happens to not be much faster - I don't think KE is actually meant to ever be a factor regarding this attack, especially when the actual damage dealt is soulhax anyways.

Also even if you follow the argument of "Toby isn't a good enough programmer to implement KE" the logical conclusion of that is "That means Frisk isn't actually getting hit by that KE".

3. Calcing KE feats such as it shouldn't be allowed unless verse has clear correlation between speed and power.
Sups counter: Our Kinetic energy feats rule state that proving such correlation is only required when you are trying to calculate specific type of feats(such as calculating KE of relativistic character, which would yield 7-A Energies even when most of verse showings is mostly below it). Mettaton calc is not such feat at all

A feat should make sense no matter what, not just because a standard says that it has to. Trying to turn a slow-moving attack into a supersonic KE-kick is obviously just abusing the KE rules to make nothing into something, and we have clearly set a precedent that KE feats should be put under particular scrutiny precisely because it's so easy to get a random motion into high tiers. I would point to that same recent Naruto thread that was trying to give characters Class P for moving a sword during a Rel+ feat - we rejected that not because it explicitly broke any of our standards but because it was obviously not actually a real feat, these standards are just meant to outline that, they won't cover every edge case.

This is obviously a lower tier but the principle is similar. The fact that this is so abstract and requires several assumptions (like Mettaton creating giant legs rather than just kicking, the electricity actually being X speed, the KE being properly represented or even intended, the electricity being real, the legs actually moving at speeds comparable to it, hell even a lot of battle box/UT standard interpretations like how you interpret the Soul taking damage, or its size being fine to pixel scale things...) to all be correct just to make sense pretty clearly outlines that it's not good to use - some of these assumptions may be fine on their own but all things together there's too many points of failure for this to be the leading AP feat for a verse.

4. Since verse apparently verse has one showing that contradicts relationship between speed and power in OP opinion(see above for motionless legs doing same damage), so no KE and LS feats for whole verse should be allowed

This seems like too much. I disagree with this. Inconsistencies are common in media but rarely do they get so bad that an entire type of calc should be discarded and this isn't on that level.

a) Verse has showings of speed and power being related, when more powerful characters are more faster. Such evidence convinced staff that Soulpower is UES that increases both AP, LS and speed.

This however is really dumb. Literally ALL verses are going to draw some kind of correlation between speed and power "fast objects hurt" is something anyone understands, and better fighters being faster is equally obvious. When our standards request that a verse "treats speed, and its relation to attack potency, in a realistic manner" they're applying a much higher level of scrutiny than that (i.e. characters directly referring to KE or thorough realism in its portrayal - scientific accuracy, which is very far from anything UT does).

 

[Armorchompy]

Also while it's true that UT monsters' creation can create tangible objects it's equally true that it can also make intangible ones. Almost always in combat (and in the Undyne chase) spells just phase through you even when them not doing so (like with any barrier-type attack, which Mettaton has a few of) would have a fairly noticeable effect. When it's actually intended for them to be tangible then gameplay does reflect that(Sans' platforms), so it's not like you can argue it's game mechanics either. There's a fairly strong argument to make that even if there is KE Frisk simply isn't being hit by it, and while you can argue that isn't provable (neither is the opposite) it's another big issue that casts the feat into more doubt.

EDIT: You could also argue that linear momentum is a thing here, given impact with Frisk doesn't stop the attacks which are much larger than them. Not sure if I would push that too hard since it's a semi-common inconsistency but it's another problem with the calc to throw on the pile.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Thanks for your assessment of Mettaton legs calc viability.

Your evaluation is also needed on other calcs, specifically: Undyne owen explosion, Mettaton destroying wall, Flowey moving elevator. Are they valid, should they be changed in some way or another, etc.. ?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Also while it's true that UT monsters' creation can create tangible objects it's equally true that it can also make intangible ones.

It’s currently not accepted on profiles and Sans is seen one of the only users of this. And fairly, since most attacks are indeed tangible.

Almost always in combat (and in the Undyne chase) spells just phase through you even when them not doing so (like with any barrier-type attack, which Mettaton has a few of) would have a fairly noticeable effect.

Uh, are you referring to after Frisk is hit? If so it’s because Frisk becomes intangible briefly after damage, not attacks, because of INV frames mechanic.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Since verse apparently verse has one showing that contradicts relationship between speed and power in OP opinion(see above for motionless legs doing same damage), so no KE and LS feats for whole verse should be allowed

I do wanna clarify here, I just think calculations like Papyrus's Bones, Sans's bones etc etc shouldn't be used via the same reason as mettaton's (The damage argument on KE being a non-factor), not literally all type of KE calcs. If it's something being thrown in the overworld it might be fine depending on how its showed/works (Just shouldnt be used for AP), so for example, using acceleration in this calculation to upgrade LS might be fine (CGMs would have to confirm), it just shouldn't be used for AP.

Meanwhile this should be completely deleted for the same reason as Mettaton's KE is not a factor in their attacks.

 

[Armorchompy]

It’s currently not accepted on profiles and Sans is seen one of the only users of this. And fairly, since most attacks are indeed tangible.

Proof? There's literally only one instance on the profiles and it's just them colliding with the bottom of the battle box, which is fairly flimsy.

Uh, are you referring to after Frisk is hit? If so it’s because Frisk becomes intangible briefly after damage, not attacks, because of INV frames mechanic.

Yes, but why would that be assumed to be game mechanics? The attacks are magical and directly strike the soul (which is portrayed as physically inside the body) anyways, it's a fairly reasonable assumption. I'm not saying it should go on the profiles (though I don't think that'd be too crazy) but it's not something you can just discount when it comes to KE applicability.

Pyrope explosion:
Both CGM(Abaddon and Eljoaki) agree that it shouldn't be usable(20 PSI wasn't baseline for a long time)

Fine, though it can be recalced.

Knight Knight Meteor
Both agree that Meteors are in fire due to Knight magic, not them being too fast

Yes.

Ice cap ice
Abaddon agrees that freezing of the air should be used. My recalc tackles this problem

Seems ok, approved.

Undyne Owen explosion:
Eljoaki disagrees with it. Abaddon is neutral. OP is proposing alternative methods(not specifying exact methods)

I feel like... I'd agree with calcing this as an explosion of some sort (low pressure, breaks windows) but if you're calcing it as a heat feat while fine it's not really gonna scale back to characters that tanked it, in the same way standing inside a house fire isn't hitting you with the like 8-B AP that'd take to set a whole house aflame.

Flowey elevator
Abaddon thinks that either timeframes are good enough. Eljoaki thinks that calc should be recalced via alternative methods, like shaking

Kinda funny given I downgraded the feat a while ago but I have no opinion on the timeframes. Haven't really looked into it.

Mettaton destroys a wall
Eljoaki: knowledgeable members of the verse should tackle it
Abaddon: it's fine

Unsure.

If it's something being thrown in the overworld it might be fine depending on how its showed/works (Just shouldnt be used for AP), so for example, using acceleration in this calculation to upgrade LS might be fine (CGMs would have to confirm), it just shouldn't be used for AP.

Why should it not be used for AP? You can't get LS from striking feats but you can absolutely get AP from lifting ones.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Meanwhile this and this one should be completely deleted for the same reason as Mettaton's KE is not a factor in their attacks

1. Sans bones are intangible. So they shouldn't be used for calculating KE anyways
2. Huh?!? Papyrus calc is neither KE nor AP calculation. It just calculation of how much force Papyrus needs to exert in order to move giant bone. There is no speed, let alone KE in sight here.

Yes, but why would that be assumed to be game mechanics?

INV (invincibility frames) aren't game mechanics, but something that actually exists diegetically in verse

Kinda funny given I downgraded the feat a while ago but I have no opinion on the timeframes. Haven't really looked into it.

What would you think if I try to calc it as shaking feat?

I feel like... I'd agree with calcing this as an explosion of some sort (low pressure, breaks windows) but if you're calcing it as a heat feat while fine it's not really gonna scale back to characters that tanked it, in the same way standing inside a house fire isn't hitting you with the like 8-B AP that'd take to set a whole house aflame.

Currently it is a explosion feat though. If you want to make a heat feat, how should it be calced?

And if you some time, could you eval those calcs, since we are in dire need of them(concentrating on their technical validity during evaluation, we could talk about their overall validity here)

 

[Rodriiogo]

Why should it not be used for AP? You can't get LS from striking feats but you can absolutely get AP from lifting ones.

Oops I completely butchered my phrase despite editing it my bad, I meant KE shouldn't be used for the AP of the characters in their magic attacks. I even repeated it twice

1. Sans bones are intangible. So they shouldn't be used for calculating KE anyways
2. Huh?!? Papyrus calc is neither KE nor AP calculation. It just calculation of how much force Papyrus needs to exert in order to move giant bone. There is no speed, let alone KE in sight here.

Point remains on the calc being deleted on Sans's regardless if it wasn't intangible, as for Papyrus's thats mb I was looking at the old calc, I edited it out in the message after noticing.

 

[Armorchompy]

What would you think if I try to calc it as shaking feat?

Using what formula?

Currently it is a explosion feat though. If you want to make a heat feat, how should it be calced?

It's not really, it's using a "fireball formula" I haven't seen before. Either way it's based on heat rather than conventional force, I think.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I’ll leave my final comment now.

I agree with the op and Armor on the kick calc.

I can agree with Abaddon on the Flowey calc. Although I would prefer the 15 s end over the onscreen time end since there is still a cut. I don’t agree with dividing the LS over the vines used.
I’d also wanna point out that the LS calculation doesn’t make sense. You don’t just take the speed at which the elevator is moved and divide by the time the elevator is moved for. Cause first of all it doesn’t look like the elevator is constantly accelerating throughout the whole journey and second of all the method doesn’t make mathematical sense as the distances traversed wouldn’t line up.
The time would be how long force is exerted until the elevator moves at that speed, which would be the time from when the doors are closed until the elevator moves, at most.
That’s a problem I have with a good amount of calcs actually.

A quick note on the pyrope bomb calc is that it could use 1 psi since it does damage.
I keep my vote on anything not mentioned.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Proof?

It was discussed and concluded like that here.

Sans' intangible attacks

So after seeing this thread, the OP was just completely wrong. Sans' attacks were intangible due to being able to completely phase through Frisk (INV frames were just some additional elaboration ig, they were not primary justification). For comparison, Papyrus' bones completely disappear after...

vsbattles.com

Yes, but why would that be assumed to be game mechanics?

That’s not game mechanics, it’s recognized on Frisk’s and Sans’ profiles. It’s just that most monsters don’t have intangible attacks.

 

[Armorchompy]

It was discussed and concluded like that here.

Sans' intangible attacks

So after seeing this thread, the OP was just completely wrong. Sans' attacks were intangible due to being able to completely phase through Frisk (INV frames were just some additional elaboration ig, they were not primary justification). For comparison, Papyrus' bones completely disappear after...

vsbattles.com

I don't think they all actually disappear on hit but I won't continue arguing that then.

That’s not game mechanics, it’s recognized on Frisk’s and Sans’ profiles. It’s just that most monsters don’t have intangible attacks.

That's... a choice. Alright.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Cause first of all it doesn’t look like the elevator is constantly accelerating throughout the whole journey and second of all the method doesn’t make mathematical sense as the distances traversed wouldn’t line up.

I noticed it too. Turns it non written rule is that for calculating KE we use average velocity over the path. But if you want to get acceleration(and thus force), you need to assume constant acceleration (for lowball) and use average velocity as final velocity(which obviously downplays the results). I personally use a=2*S/(t^2) for case of constant acceleration. With it formula used calced acceleration(and thus force) of this feat doubles, and distances actually line up.

The time would be how long force is exerted until the elevator moves at that speed, which would be the time from when the doors are closed until the elevator moves, at most.

It seems to me as good idea. I should ask other CGMs about what they think about it

Using what formula?

1. What do you think about above mentioned method for finding LS?
2. Shaking was proposed early, but elevator shaking is too chaotic for usual formulas

It's not really, it's using a "fireball formula" I haven't seen before. Either way it's based on heat rather than conventional force, I think.

It's using formula from here.
Heat does produce shockwaves. Any place with higher than usual thermal energy would push onto neighbour part. And whole sequence def was intended as mini explosion rather than just heat transfer

 

[Armorchompy]

It's using formula from here.

... This is for nuclear bombs. I don't think it'd be applicable to any heat spread.

Heat does produce shockwaves. Any place with higher than usual thermal energy would push onto neighbour part. And whole sequence def was intended as mini explosion rather than just heat transfer

But those shockwaves provably aren't very strong given the lack of destruction in this case.

 

[Qurbonboev]

... This is for nuclear bombs. I don't think it'd be applicable to any heat spread.

So what you(or others) propose?

 

[Armorchompy]

So what you(or others) propose?

Well for that feat you can calc it as a low-pressure explosion, since it does break windows. I'm not sure it'll give much but as is I don't think the calc is good.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Probably 0.15 or 0.5 - 1 PSI if we go by that since the windows do seem to be destroyed but nothing else seems affected by anything other than heat.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Well for that feat you can calc it as a low-pressure explosion, since it does break windows. I'm not sure it'll give much but as is I don't think the calc is good.

So, just use PSI 1?
At that point feat isn't good even as supporting one. So it probably should be ditched, and when recalc is evaluated, should be replaced with it.

Only calc left to discuss is Flowey elevator feat. Did you look into it more closely?
And what do you think of Eljoaki proposed method to calculate it's LS?
(There is also Mettaton destroying wall feat, but you were just unsure about it. One calc member agrees with it, another think that it should be tackled by knowledgeable members of the verse. And it was considered valid in last CRT, but needed change to account for a fact that we accept it being done via 1 punch).

 

[Qurbonboev]

Well for that feat you can calc it as a low-pressure explosion, since it does break windows. I'm not sure it'll give much but as is I don't think the calc is good.

Question:
Is Mettaton legs feat still usable for LS? He is still moving pretty heavy objects (obviously, if we assume that he spawns them)?

I changed things in some calcs
I changed Wolf throwing ice cube calc.
Added scans to Sans vehicle lift
Added formula source for Mettaton shaking building feat.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Recalced Pyrope and Undyne owen explosions.

 

[WizardPowers101]

Recalced Pyrope and Undyne owen explosions.

Both seem fine, we'll see what the CGM thinks.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Recalced Pyrope and Undyne owen explosions.

I don't get it with Undyne explosion. Rodri's complaint was that it is not an explosion, and even if it is, surface area is not accounted for. While you just used Charmander's method while putting 1 PSI. Unless I missed something over these 5 pages, if that's the case then nevermind, but OP should probably update that.

Also "Frisk didn't die to it so it shouldn't be 20 PSI" in OP is still a terrible reason, "it's not 20 PSI because there is no reason to be" is more than enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't get it with Undyne explosion. Rodri's complaint was that it is not an explosion, and even if it is, surface area is not accounted for. While you just used Charmander's method while putting 1 PSI.

It did break Undyne's windows, so it can be calced as a suitably weak explosion.

 

[Rodriiogo]

So, the agreement as of right now seems to be:

- Pyrope's Bomb: Recalc using 3(?) PSI (All CGMs agreed with the removal of 20PSI, the recalc is done)
- Undyne's Oven Explodes: Recalc using 1 PSI Explosion End via what Armor said (Joaki and Armor seem to agree, dk about abaddon as he was netural, the recalc is done regardless)
- KnightKnight summons Meteors: Remove it (All CGMs agreed)
- Mettaton destroys Metal Wall: ??? (Abaddon disagreed with deletion tho irc)
- Flowey's Elevator feat: ???
- IceCap's Ice cones: Recalc using the new formula (All CGMs agreed with the new formula, the recalc is done)
- Mettaton Ex's Supersonic Kicks: Remove it (I think? Might need CGMs to confirm this just in case)

Mettaton's Wall and Flowey's elevator is what I think is left to be addressed on what to do with it.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Mettaton destroys Metal Wall: ??? (Abaddon disagreed with deletion tho irc)

Abaddon disagrees with deletion, Eljoaki thinks it should be handled by knowledgeable members(who together with staff affirmed it validity in the latest CRT, that went on about it), Armor is unsure. So outright disagree of 1 CGM, and effective disagree of 2 CGM

It did break Undyne's windows, so it can be calced as a suitably weak explosion.

We still need your opinion on overall validity of Flowey elevator feat, and LS of it

And what do you think of Eljoaki proposed method to calculate it's LS?

Plus, is Mettaton feat still usable for LS calculation? Mettaton still moves heavy objects. We can affirm via metal sounds that legs weren't moving before attack can be seen, so calculating acceleration and force should be possible.

And I changed Wolf girl ice throw again, after hearing your objections