Undertale Calculations - 90% of them are wrong

[StrymULTRA]

It's been brought up already but if you need MORE proof that Mettaton EX is indeed metal lol, he even says he uses metal hair gel in response to one of the essay answers you can give. Anyways if you are going to talk about "narrative intent" i suggest playing the video game first! Goes on sale all the time.

How is that there's always stuff I don't know with this game. It's insanity.

 

[Homie890]

Agree with this crt
...
Is this a CRT?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Agree with this crt
...
Is this a CRT?

Sir, this is a calc group members discussion thread. Comment here only if you are calc group member or have important information to share

 

[Rodriiogo]

If this is gonna start going in circles might aswell wait for CGMs / Mods to catchup.

I will let you have the last message, whatever. I'm tired of repeating the same thing and I gotta go aswell.

I still stand by what I said here, hence why I'm not replying to Strym's entire message right now, and I ask to please let mods/CGMs catch up before commenting again.

However:

It's been brought up already but if you need MORE proof that Mettaton EX is indeed metal lol, he even says he uses metal hair gel in response to one of the essay answers you can give. Anyways if you are going to talk about "narrative intent" i suggest playing the video game first! Goes on sale all the time.

This is an actual decent point and does indeed prove mettaton ex is at least made out of some metal. The last part of it is just acting entitled for no reason but whatever, I can accept a decent point when I see one so I have edited the "no metal" section out of the OP to it simply being a lesser metal.

However just to clarify that this part being scrapped doesn't mean anything of the point is. The whole point still includes the fact that, as the OP says, and even some cgms already talked about it, the feat is entirely invalid, not just wrongly calculated. (Which it still is via the rest of the point in the OP about the proportions of the leg, the metal not being as hard as steel - titanium etc etc, everything is already said in the OP)

 

[Qurbonboev]

the metal not being as hard as steel - titanium

Already solved via using data from humanoid robots, which are made from materials that are less durable than most steel and titanium alloys(cus they are designed for flexibility and with maximising high strength-per-weight ratio in mind)

 

[Homie890]

Sir, this is a calc group members discussion thread. Comment here only if you are calc group member or have important information to share

Thousand apologies.
Didn't see it.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Okay so having read through the arguments through the thread, this is my eval of the OP and any additional comments I got:

• Agree:
  • Pyrope's Bomb
    • 20 PSI hasn't been the baseline for explosions for a while so agree on that
  • Knight Knight Meteors
  • Ice Cap Ice Cones
  • Mettaton EX Supersonic Kicks:
    • Both for some of the reasons given but also cause the electricity calc used for the speed just straight up isn't eval'd from what I can tell and Agnaa also brings up a decent point on the variability of electricity in the comments of that blog
• Neutral:
  • Undyne Oven Explosion:
    • Not gonna comment much on this cause I get the arguments for both but I am gonna note that ISL may not be the best for distances this short cause unless the distance is above like a quarter of a meter or so the ISL formula is going to start saying they took higher yields of energy than the actual explosion dished out.
• Disagree:
  • Mettaton Destroying a Metal Wall
  • Flowey Elevator Feat:
    • The overall feat is seemingly supposed to happen fast so I think that either of those timeframes (ones used in the current and previous calc) would be fine. Though, dividing by the vines would probably be preferable.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Okay so having read through the arguments through the thread, this is my eval of the OP and any additional comments I got:

Thanks for your participation.

Ice Cap Ice Cones

OP only objection was that we should use different method to calculate energy. And my recalc does use method proposed by them.

Both for some of the reasons given but also cause the electricity calc used for the speed just straight up isn't eval'd from what I can tell and Agnaa also brings up a decent point on the variability of electricity in the comments of that blog

Electricity speed that is used is currently approved for use for now. And many staff member think we should use it anyways. And thread about ditching or changing it went nowhere.
Current calc assumes solid block of steel, which is obviously incorrect, but my recalc doesn't have such problems.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Both for some of the reasons given but also cause the electricity calc used for the speed just straight up isn't eval'd from what I can tell and Agnaa also brings up a decent point on the variability of electricity in the comments of that blog

What reasons?

Plus, for the Electricity stuff it is still debated whether to still use it nor not, that thread isn't even complete yet lol. Don't think it's fair to just throw it away from just that.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Plus, for the Electricity stuff it is still debated whether to still use it nor not, that thread isn't even complete yet lol. Don't think it's fair to just throw it away from just that.

Wasn't aware of that when I made that comment which was one of the main issues I had with it so may be best to wait for that thread then in regards to this specific calc

What reasons?

Apart from the electricity stuff, using 100% steel for the legs. I think using steel is fine but assuming it's literally a 100% steel leg is what I don't agree with

 

[Qurbonboev]

Apart from the electricity stuff, using 100% steel for the legs. I think using steel is fine but assuming it's literally a 100% steel leg is what I don't agree with

Hmm..

Current calc assumes solid block of steel, which is obviously incorrect, but my recalc doesn't have such problems.

If you missed, my calc uses data from actual humanoid robots(it was proposed by Armor), whose actual density is usually much lesser than most alloys(since robots have hollowness, they use thin armor plating, they usually sacrifice strength for flexibility, etc.)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wasn't aware of that when I made that comment which was one of the main issues I had with it so may be best to wait for that thread then in regards to this specific calc

Armor said we can keep to use it until a better alternative comes out.

Apart from the electricity stuff, using 100% steel for the legs. I think using steel is fine but assuming it's literally a 100% steel leg is what I don't agree with

That's where @Qurbonboev recalcs comes in, yes.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I may change some of my votes after the other cgms have commented

 

[Rodriiogo]

Alright I guess I will answer this now. (I will ignore the metal mettaton argument since I already agreed it is a type of metal just not a strong one)

I mean, yeah? Survival instincts and stuff like that. Unless you mean that there's much more going on. Like how much do you think the Elevator could be moving for, a whole hour? I mean we'd simply use the maximum timeframe given by common sense, you seem to argue just because you just want the feat to be invalid atp.

Ok, prove there are more vines besides vibes (almost rhymed).

This will be two in a row. You can't make assumptions like this in a calculation with no supporting evidence, that is NOT how calculations work on the wiki. For the timeframes, we can not assume anything there is no "assumption" to make, and if the lifting is already more than some seconds long, unless you think Flowey simply lifted it in quick jerk motion then and didnt do any more force at all throughout the travel, it is already unusable especially for AP (which the current calc does):

Spoiler: Calculation Rules

However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean and jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human-type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow, sustained motion which allows for many more muscle fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to assist by storing energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. Using real-world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly five times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements. Similarly, if telekinesis (or any other ability of a similar nature) is used, the lifting must be performed in a timeframe that makes it capable of being used as an attack. (From our calculations page)

As for the vines, the elevator isn't just the door, the fact that Flowey used so many vines on a singular place when the elevator is like 3x the width of the door is very telling. Do you think Flowey only used vines on the door and that's it? He lifted while only grabbing the width of the door? So much for "common sense" critique.

You bringing up these examples do not defeat my point of simply using just the fight in itself to evaluate said fight, instead of bringing others.

Those examples are to prove it to you that it is 100% Toby's and Undertale's style to use different sprites for attacks which are made by the monster's physical body, and the intent is way more clear to be that they are indeed representations of Mettaton kicking and that those legs arent meant to be 6x bigger than his own.
I already told you why but I will say it again, he can't use his leg attacks once he loses his own legs, and you genuinely saying Mettaton's magic involves creating physical robot parts is already an insane killing of the narrative of Mettaton. You mean to tell me he dreamt about a body his entire life and his magic can apparently just create robot parts? What type of magic is this? Your only example is the singular exception of the story with Sans and Papyrus where it is actually made clear that they can create bones. Mettaton being able to just constantly replicate his own body parts makes no sense with how he needs Alphys to create, and then re-create his body after the fight.

You may not do that intentionally, but you still are doing that. If your entire thing is "MTT's electricity is slow compared to attacks thrown by [insert unrelated monster]", then it falls apart as you fail to consider how Frisk increases their speed depending on how much DT has, heck Omega Flowey was blitzing Frisk by just having much more DT than them at that point of time, and it'd basically force a comparison between monsters by how many pixels per second they move on-screen.

That's indeed not my "entire thing". My "entire thing" is that I brought up how multiple legs that DON'T move at that level of speed as the "supersonic legs" do the same amount of damage to Frisk already disproves the idea that speed is helping with Mettaton's power at all, which is what KE is meant to do. You then tried to go on how "the speed is inconsistent" on-screen so I ask you, if it is so inconsistent why are you comparing the leg's speed to the electricity in the first place. I'm not saying it's slow, I'm saying you yourself agreed that using the px/s on screen for those attacks is inconsistent... yet you do it on calcs? Pick a side, and if you think it's fine to use it then so is my point on how legs way slower do the same amount of damage. Kinetic energy is not a factor here.
Also do you genuinely think Frisk got like 10x faster between each attack to make the legs look that much slower lmao, the level of stretching this calculation does is insane.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What happened to "it's going circular and I'll just wait for CGMs"?

This will be two in a row. You can't make assumptions like this in a calculation with no supporting evidence, that is NOT how calculations work on the wiki. For the timeframes, we can not assume anything there is no "assumption" to make, and if the lifting is already more than some seconds long, unless you think Flowey simply lifted it in quick jerk motion then and didnt do any more force at all throughout the travel, it is already unusable especially for AP (which the current calc does)

Outside the fact that several CGMs disagreed with you on this thing (good thing you said that my argument was invalidated prior because of that), we can still use what's going on on-screen to get a good estimate on this stuff. I don't really like this "all or nothing" approach you're using, like we still can still deduce how much time is reasonably passing. Like, I do not believe for a second that it took a super long time like a hour, and the way the feat is shown it definitely was reasonably fast.

As for the vines, the elevator isn't just the door, the fact that Flowey used so many vines on a singular place when the elevator is like 3x the width of the door is very telling. Do you think Flowey only used vines on the door and that's it? He lifted while only grabbing the width of the door? So much for "common sense" critique.

I mean, yes? Where's the evidence he used more?

Those examples are to prove it to you that it is 100% Toby's and Undertale's style to use different sprites for attacks which are made by the monster's physical body, and the intent is way more clear to be that they are indeed representations of Mettaton kicking and that those legs arent meant to be 6x bigger than his own.
I already told you why but I will say it again, he can't use his leg attacks once he loses his own legs, and you genuinely saying Mettaton's magic involves creating physical robot parts is already an insane killing of the narrative of Mettaton. You mean to tell me he dreamt about a body his entire life and his magic can apparently just create robot parts? What type of magic is this? Your only example is the singular exception of the story with Sans and Papyrus where it is actually made clear that they can create bones. Mettaton being able to just constantly replicate his own body parts makes no sense with how he needs Alphys to create, and then re-create his body after the fight.

I love how this entire point gets disproved by Mad Mew Mew not using any of the previous attacks she used as Mad Dummy once she's changed bodies. I think it's clear that Ghosts in Undertale get attacks depending on the bodies they use, and the state of said body is simply related to the attacks they can use.

Again, do not bring again the "narrative" thing as it's just a very nice way to hide the usage of headcanon, just use what's on screen ffs.

That's indeed not my "entire thing". My "entire thing" is that I brought up how multiple legs that DON'T move at that level of speed as the "supersonic legs" do the same amount of damage to Frisk already disproves the idea that speed is helping with Mettaton's power at all, which is what KE is meant to do. You then tried to go on how "the speed is inconsistent" on-screen so I ask you, if it is so inconsistent why are you comparing the leg's speed to the electricity in the first place. I'm not saying it's slow, I'm saying you yourself agreed that using the px/s on screen for those attacks is inconsistent... yet you do it on calcs? Pick a side, and if you think it's fine to use it then so is my point on how legs way slower do the same amount of damage. Kinetic energy is not a factor here.
Also do you genuinely think Frisk got like 10x faster between each attack to make the legs look that much slower lmao, the level of stretching this calculation does is insane.

1. Prove the legs move considerably faster/slower between attacks. I said that in the fight MTT's electricity doesn't move fast, meaning that all the legs are generally that speed within his fight, don't warp my words.
2. I mean, Frisk is the same who gets super big jumps in AP/Speed depending on how much DT they have, maybe by ratting a bit we can argue that.

 

[Rodriiogo]

What happened to "it's going circular and I'll just wait for CGMs"?

I said its better to wait for cgms to catch up before I continue to not overwhelm them when they were reading the entire thread, though looking at the counter arguments you just gave me... oof.

Outside the fact that several CGMs disagreed with you on this thing (good thing you said that my argument was invalidated prior because of that), we can still use what's going on on-screen to get a good estimate on this stuff. I don't really like this "all or nothing" approach you're using, like we still can still deduce how much time is reasonably passing. Like, I do not believe for a second that it took a super long time like a hour, and the way the feat is shown it definitely was reasonably fast.

And I told you the way you got your estimate is faulty. Your evidence is a non-existent video that is inside your brain man. Please give me any estimate via what's actually seen on-screen instead of your headcanon.

I mean, yes? Where's the evidence he used more?

You can not be real.

I love how this entire point gets disproved by Mad Mew Mew not using any of the previous attacks she used as Mad Dummy once she's changed bodies. I think it's clear that Ghosts in Undertale get attacks depending on the bodies they use, and the state of said body is simply related to the attacks they can use.

This does indeed not disprove anything and where did the "state of said body" being related to the attacks come from? Why would part of their magic disappear because the body is damaged. Mad Mew Mew was, 1, Not even fully fused with the body, and 2, did not use replicate their body, this is just another false equivalence. Nothing in the story says what you're saying.

Again, do not bring again the "narrative" thing as it's just a very nice way to hide the usage of headcanon, just use what's on screen ffs.

No it's called logical thinking and actually using what the story is trying to portray instead of having a powerscaling brain that goes "powerscaling overwrites the narrative" which is what you said by the way.

Prove the legs move considerably faster/slower between attacks. I said that in the fight MTT's electricity doesn't move fast, meaning that all the legs are generally that speed within his fight, don't warp my words.

""Supersonic legs"" here.
This legs are not only slower when moving, BUT DO THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE EVEN WHEN STANDING STILL. (if you don't shoot them) There's no KE here man.

I mean, Frisk is the same who gets super big jumps in AP/Speed depending on how much DT they have, maybe by ratting a bit we can argue that.

Next level ratting man, an actual rat would be jealous of you. Mind you, the attacks are slower in the beginning of the fight so it'd mean Frisk somehow only sped up via determination in the first attack to be alot faster than something faster than electricity, in-between the attacks slowed down right after since there is an attack where Frisk is slower than the electricity again, sped up again in the exact attack where Mettaton kicks again, and slowed down for the rest of the fight again.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I said its better to wait for cgms to catch up before I continue to not overwhelm them when they were reading the entire thread, though looking at the counter arguments you just gave me... oof.

And I told you the way you got your estimate is faulty. Your evidence is a non-existent video that is inside your brain man. Please give me any estimate via what's actually seen on-screen instead of your headcanon.

If you just don't wanna be convinced and keep stonewalling while keeping to say "no" over and over, again, I can't help much.

You can not be real.

Yet I am talking to you rn!

This does indeed not disprove anything and where did the "state of said body" being related to the attacks come from?

Context clues.

Why would part of their magic disappear because the body is damaged. Mad Mew Mew was, 1, Not even fully fused with the body, and 2, did not use replicate their body, this is just another false equivalence. Nothing in the story says what you're saying.

The merging part literally doesn't matter, otherwise Mad Mew Mew would have still been able to use the attacks of Mad Dummy, something she didn't show to.

And, you know, Monsters' bodies are made of magic, I think it's pretty relevant too.

""Supersonic legs"" here.

Yeah, I do see legs that should be supersonic off being faster than electricity here, why are you showing me that?

This legs are not only slower when moving, BUT DO THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE EVEN WHEN STANDING STILL. (if you don't shoot them) There's no KE here man.

I see them moving towards you, though. Not horizontally like the ones in the feat, but vertically. I do not think the direction matters much.

Next level ratting man, an actual rat would be jealous of you.

Are you getting agitated lil' bro?

Mind you, the attacks are slower in the beginning of the fight so it'd mean Frisk somehow only sped up via determination in the first attack to be alot faster than something faster than electricity, in-between the attacks slowed down right after since there is an attack where Frisk is slower than the electricity again, sped up again in the exact attack where Mettaton kicks again, and slowed down for the rest of the fight again.

Frisk randomly switching to peak DT in the middle in the fight between Asgore and Asriel

Even then, this doesn't defeat my point of the bolts being generally slower than the rest of MTT attacks, so you kinda wrote for nothing

 

[ElJoaki5]

Rodri has a point on the ke, it seems weird to calculate ke when the attack does the same damage regardless of speed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Rodri has a point on the ke, it seems weird to calculate ke when the attack does the same damage regardless of speed.

My point is that the legs all are on the same speed roughly in the fight, it's weird to say that his attacks get randomly x300 faster between turns.

 

[Rodriiogo]

If you just don't wanna be convinced and keep stonewalling while keeping to say "no" over and over, again, I can't help much.

Give me a valid reasoning and I will agree. I agreed for the metal mettaton stuff when someone actually brought up good evidence for it, something you have failed to do as of right now for your timeframe and vines assumption.

Context clues.

Which are...?

The merging part literally doesn't matter, otherwise Mad Mew Mew would have still been able to use the attacks of Mad Dummy, something she didn't show to.

And, you know, Monsters' bodies are made of magic, I think it's pretty relevant too.

So... no evidence that actually contradicts what I said. Okay thought so. Also you'd need to prove it to me the legs hes creating is of the same exact, material, density and for some reason has all the electronic parts he has in his own legs inside it otherwise its invalid regardless since its magic. (I know we agree that magic has the same properties of the real thing but this is a completely different scenario, especially when you are trying to argue the legs are 6x the size of mettaton's regular legs lmao)

Yeah, I do see legs that should be supersonic off being faster than electricity here, why are you showing me that?

It was for the comparison between them and the slower legs.

I see them moving towards you, though. Not horizontally like the ones in the feat, but vertically. I do not think the direction matters much.

At a much slower speed than the speed used to get the supersonic legs that high. Also funny thing, if you wait for the "supersonic legs" themselves to stop moving and run into them, they do the exact same damage as when the "force" is applied to them. Nice Kinetic energy.

Are you getting agitated lil' bro?

You yourself called it ratting bro what, I was literally going off your words of it being ratting.

Even then, this doesn't defeat my point of the bolts being generally slower than the rest of MTT attacks, so you kinda wrote for nothing

The bolts are faster than most attacks actually. Also if the wiki actually accepts that the mini mettatons are FALLING AT SUPERSONIC SPEEDS while their fall is being softened by UMBRELLAS, that is stupid aswell.

My point is that the legs all are on the same speed roughly in the fight, it's weird to say that his attacks get randomly x300 faster between turns.

Except they visibly aren't on-screen. Them being the same speed is just not true on-screen. The calculation is using on-screen speed, either use it completely or disregard it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, Frisk is the same who gets super big jumps in AP/Speed depending on how much DT they have, maybe by ratting a bit we can argue that.

Next level ratting man, an actual rat would be jealous of you.

Are you getting agitated lil' bro?

Drop this shit.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Give me a valid reasoning and I will agree. I agreed for the metal mettaton stuff when someone actually brought up good evidence for it, something you have failed to do as of right now for your timeframe and vines assumption.

Something I did all the time, though. Again, we do run on assumptions if these are likely enough due to common sense.

So... no evidence. Okay thought so. Also you'd need to prove it to me the legs hes creating is of the same exact, material, density and for some reason has all the electronic parts he has in his own legs inside it otherwise its invalid regardless since its magic. (I know we agree that magic has the same properties of the real thing but this is a completely different scenario, especially when you are trying to argue the legs are 6x the size of mettaton's regular legs lmao)

Occam's Razor says that they're made of the same stuff as he is. Are you argiung that Papyrus' bone attacks aren't as dense as he is? That'd be a giant leap on logic that's even unsubstained.

The bolts are faster than most attacks actually. Also if the wiki actually accepts that the mini mettatons are FALLING AT SUPERSONIC SPEEDS while their fall is being softened by UMBRELLAS, that is stupid aswell.

Or, these umbrellas are just that tuff. Flowers in Undertale can already reduce the impact of a fall of hundreds of meters, so why can't umbrellas do the same?

Except they visibly aren't on-screen. Them being the same speed is just not true on-screen. The calculation is using on-screen speed, either use it completely or disregard it.

Again with this "all or nothing" mentality. Prove they are of drastically different speeds on-screens or don't argue, thanks.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Rodri has a point on the ke, it seems weird to calculate ke when the attack does the same damage regardless of speed.

It is overall legitimate concern. But I have 2 arguments against it:
1. Toby didn't have neither time nor programming provess to make damage inflicted variable based on speed of projectiles.
2. Current KE rules state that verse needs clear correlation between power and speed if feat in question is carrying small objects(like lifting small sword at relativistic sword). And we don't need to prove such correlation if:
a) Character uses fast moving object to attack
b) Character moves large objects at great speed
c) Character throws object to attack at great speed
We argue that legs that Mettaton summons are linked to his actual legs, but they are distinct from them. When he uses legs for attack, we can see that his acthal legs aren't moving at all. When he uses heart to attack us, we can see his actual heart attacking us, and Mettaton comments on this fact. If we accept that Mettaton summons 12 ton legs to attacks us, we automatically satisfy exceptions above, so we don't need to prove clear correlation between power and speed. (I don't want to seem rude, but I think question whether Mettaton uses his actual legs or summons legs isn't jurisdiction of CGM, but should be handled in CRT, since it's about specifically inverse question).
Edit: You can obviously argue that we should be more stricter with KE rules, but it should be handled in staff discussion, not here, since it would affect almost all verses on site

 

[Rodriiogo]

Something I did all the time, though. Again, we do run on assumptions if these are likely enough due to common sense.

You haven't done it on the thread, I have only seen you do it on that old calculation and I already explained why that explanation doesn't work messages ago.

Occam's Razor says that they're made of the same stuff as he is. Are you argiung that Papyrus' bone attacks aren't as dense as he is? That'd be a giant leap on logic that's even unsubstained.

Re-read, I addressed this idea:

(I know we agree that magic has the same properties of the real thing but this is a completely different scenario, especially when you are trying to argue the legs are 6x the size of mettaton's regular legs lmao)

Also why would the magical legs (which I will say again, are just representations of his kicks, I do not agree they are magical legs he summons, im going off your own head canon) contain the electronic properties of his actual body if they aren't connected to it? Why would they need stuff like cables and devices going through them? 6x size is also an issue as I said.

Or, these umbrellas are just that tuff. Flowers in Undertale can already reduce the impact of a fall of hundreds of meters, so why can't umbrellas do the same?

Umbrellas upscale. Atp nothing is an anti-feat or showing that stuff isn't actually how it works and its always an upscale, "gun upscale" in most verses incoming I guess man.

Again with this "all or nothing" mentality. Prove they are of drastically different speeds on-screens or don't argue, thanks.

1. Doing some quick calculations, the current calculation makes the supersonic legs move 186px in 9 frames. In the same time (9 frames) on other leg attacks, the legs fall 80px, that's a 2.325x difference in speed. Using this on the KE formula with the current values, the difference in speed should make the potency of the legs go from the current 2.42 tons of tnt used to ~0.448 Tons of TNT. That's a 5.40x gap in AP. The difference in speed does indeed affect the AP drastically.

2.

Also funny thing, if you wait for the "supersonic legs" themselves to stop moving and run into them, they do the exact same damage as when the "force" is applied to them.

 

[ElJoaki5]

It is overall legitimate concern. But I have 2 arguments against it:
1. Toby didn't have neither time nor programming provess to make damage inflicted variable based on speed of projectiles.

I can see that yeah. Im mostly waiting on other cgms.

but I think question whether Mettaton uses his actual legs or summons legs isn't jurisdiction of CGM, but should be handled in CRT, since it's about specifically inverse question).

I agree

 

[Rodriiogo]

1. Toby didn't have neither time nor programming provess to make damage inflicted variable based on speed of projectiles.

If this was the case then using KE is wrong to begin with via author's intent, the intent obviously wasn't for the attack to be stronger via it's speed then which makes using it KE just overscaling it for the sake of it.

2. Current KE rules state that verse needs clear correlation between power and speed if feat in question is carrying small objects(like lifting small sword at relativistic sword). And we don't need to prove such correlation if:
a) Character uses fast moving object to attack
b) Character moves large objects at great speed
c) Character throws object to attack at great speed
We argue that legs that Mettaton summons are linked to his actual legs, but they are distinct from them. When he uses legs for attack, we can see that his acthal legs aren't moving at all. When he uses heart to attack us, we can see his actual heart attacking us, and Mettaton comments on this fact. If we accept that Mettaton summons 12 ton legs to attacks us, we automatically satisfy exceptions above, so we don't need to prove clear correlation between power and speed. (I don't want to seem rude, but I think question whether Mettaton uses his actual legs or summons legs isn't jurisdiction of CGM, but should be handled in CRT, since it's about specifically inverse question).
Edit: You can obviously argue that we should be more stricter with KE rules, but it should be handled in staff discussion, not here, since it would affect almost all verses on site

Just because the KE rules don't say the same to giant characters doesn't mean it wouldnt also be applied if there's a direct contradiction for it's KE usage inverse which there is here as I showed so like.
I also already gave multiple examples of battle box sizes of the actual "Objects" being way bigger or way smaller than their actual size with Froggit, Toriel and Lemon Bread. Using pixel scaling to argue those legs are 6x the size of mettaton's actual legs is insane overscaling. Those legs arent of a "giant" so regular KE rules apply. Undertale has graphics limitations so Toby couldn't make Mettaton actually jump out from where he is on screen and kick you fast.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ignoring the rest to avoid useless bickering (also because this thread is only to talk about the math, whether these are his actual kicks or not is something that needs an actual CRT to be discussed).

Umbrellas upscale. Atp nothing is an anti-feat or showing that stuff isn't actually how it works and its always an upscale, "gun upscale" in most verses incoming I guess man.

I mean, yes? Yours is just incredulity that doesn't help.

I can see that yeah. Im mostly waiting on other cgms.

@Psychomaster35 is also said he's coming.

 

[Mommyleona]

I mean, yes? Yours is just incredulity that doesn't help.

You can't just say that anything that doesn't fit with your scaling actually simply upscales, so that it's no longer an issue

 

[Qurbonboev]

I agree

If other cgm agree on this part(CGMs shouldn't discuss whether Mettaton uses his legs or summons then, since it's not their sphere of expertise), OP could drop this objection(of legs beings much longer than actual Mettaton legs) and move it to CRT, which we would cover similar objections.

If this was the case then using KE is wrong to begin with via author's intent, the intent obviously wasn't for the attack to be stronger via it's speed then which makes using it KE just overscaling it for the sake of it.

Stop misinterpreting me. I said that he wouldn't be able to implement such relationship between speed and power due to constraints, not that he didn't intended such relationship to be true from the start.

Snip about moving legs doing same damage as not moving one

1. Again, this objections would apply only if we were trying to use KE for small objects.
2. Contact damage exists in UT(as gameplay mechanic), and it's power scales with target ATK. In many games Player receives same damage when getting hit by an enemy, and when just running into it.
3. We are not arguing that legs do damage purely via KE. They do damage through KE+Magic. So they still would be able to damage us when they are moving slowly(since there still magic component in them). Naoya punches obviously have more KE than Yuji, but their AP is lower than Yuji punches, since Yuji is better at enhancing them with cursed energy. We can't calculate directly magic part of equation obviously. But we can calculate KE part of it. If Frisk can withstand legs kicks, that contain such and such KE, we can safely say that their Dura scales to such value

 

[Rodriiogo]

If other cgm agree on this part(CGMs shouldn't discuss whether Mettaton uses his legs or summons then, since it's not their sphere of expertise), OP could drop this objection(of legs beings much longer than actual Mettaton legs) and move it to CRT, which we would cover similar objections.

You do know it being longer or not does not only come from it being a representation of him kicking or not right? It's just nonsensical to begin with and I already showed multiple inconsistencies in the sizes of objects when in the battle box: Toriel's hands ; Froggit ; LemonBread's teeth, eyes and mouth, twice.

It being him kicking or not would not change the fact that using pixel-scaling on battle box objects is already extremely faulty and inconsistent.

Stop misinterpreting me. I said that he wouldn't be able to implement such relationship between speed and power due to constraints, not that he didn't intended such relationship to be true from the start.

Yes he very much would, if anything, since your argument is that Toby wanted to make KE a factor, EVERY SINGLE ATTACK in UNDERTALE should deal more damage when it's faster than the same attack when slowed down should have a higher damage value. This isn't something he can't do or doesn't have time to, if he really was thinking "hmm via kinetic energy this attack would be stronger" he'd just change the bool damage value of said sprite/attack and be done with it, this isn't something hard or impossible to do, it's programming 123 considering how UNDERTALE's attacks and damage sytem works.

Again, this objections would apply only if we were trying to use KE for small objects.

Stop using this argument, I already told you just because the rules say "it's valid when giants over 200kg" does not mean that EVERY GIANT WITH OVER 200KG is valid. That's why the rule also says it's case by case. A giant moving is a valid way of using KE, that's why it's in the examples of valid ways BUT that's if there's no contradictions for the usage of KE in said movement. Here there is, so it doesn't matter if it's small, medium sized or big, it's invalid. Mettaton's leg could be the size of the entire planet for all I care.

Contact damage exists in UT(as gameplay mechanic), and it's power scales with target ATK. In many games Player receives same damage when getting hit by an enemy, and when just running into it.

What is this trying to prove?

We are not arguing that legs do damage purely via KE. They do damage through KE+Magic. So they still would be able to damage us when they are moving slowly(since there still magic component in them). Naoya punches obviously have more KE than Yuji, but their AP is lower than Yuji punches, since Yuji is better at enhancing them with cursed energy. We can't calculate directly magic part of equation obviously. But we can calculate KE part of it. If Frisk can withstand legs kicks, that contain such and such KE, we can safely say that their Dura scales to such value

And what is the proof for that? Magic in UNDERTALE has never worked like this. In literally all the fights in the game, attacks do the same amount of damage when moving slow, when moving fast, and even when STANDING STILL. The potency of the magic in Undertale is fully based on ATK stats, not KE at all. The example you gave with Naoya and Yuji is one where it's valid to use KE for Naoya because the STORY ITSELF STATES that his attacks get stronger based on how much speed it's put into them. This is not the case for Undertale.

Also as I already showed the gap in AP between the "supersonic legs" and, the same leg, in the same fight, but moving at a different speed is of OVER 5X. If Frisk's durability scales to the supersonic leg, if KE was valid (it isn't), that slow leg would deal 0 damage.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Why is “gun upscale in every verse” being mentioned here if that’s quite literally the case, lots of verses still use guns and knives despite having consistent numerous far higher feats.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Why is “gun upscale in every verse” being mentioned here if that’s quite literally the case, lots of verses still use guns and knives despite having consistent numerous far higher feats.

The context here is that inconsistencies for the calculations are genuinely being justified by "umbrella upscales" and "wall upscales". This is different than if a verse has numerous higher feats then proceeds to get hurt by a gun.

 

[Qurbonboev]

You do know it being longer or not does not only come from it being a representation of him kicking or not right? It's just nonsensical to begin with and I already showed multiple inconsistencies in the sizes of objects when in the battle box: Toriel's hands ; Froggit ; LemonBread's teeth, eyes and mouth, twice.

CGM thread isn't place for such discussion. It should be handled in CRT thread.

Yes he very much would, if anything, since your argument is that Toby wanted to make KE a factor, EVERY SINGLE ATTACK in UNDERTALE should deal more damage when it's faster than the same attack when slowed down should have a higher damage value. This isn't something he can't do or doesn't have time to, if he really was thinking "hmm via kinetic energy this attack would be stronger" he'd just change the bool damage value of said sprite/attack and be done with it, this isn't something hard or impossible to do, it's programming 123 considering how UNDERTALE's attacks and damage sytem works.

STOP MISREADING ME! It geniunely annoys me. I didn't say that this was intent of Toby. I said that even if such intend existed in reality, implementing it would take precious time and resources, things Toby lacked.

This isn't something he can't do or doesn't have time to

No. Anyone that looked at code of Undertale can see for themselves limits of his abilities. Anyone that knows about specifics about development, knows that he didn't have time. "This mechanic is not difficult, I can just add it with ease" is mindset that kills many gamedev projects. And wasting time on UT is even worse, since it wasn't even his goal, Toby goal was creating DR. UT was supposed to be more easier game(in complexity), wasting time on such unimportant thing such as relationship between damage and speed would he idiotic to him.

If Frisk's durability scales to the supersonic leg, if KE was valid (it isn't), that slow leg would deal 0 damage.

No. I have already said that objects in UT deal contact damage. Didn't you see me spouting about it

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah, the classic "but gun", only use that shit if you're planning to downgrade them to low-mid end 9-B or 9-C, not to 9-A or 9-B+.

 

[Rodriiogo]

CGM thread isn't place for such discussion. It should be handled in CRT thread.

I'm pretty sure CGM thread can be used to discuss if a pixel-scaling method should not be used in a calculation. Some CGM can correct me on this if I'm wrong.

STOP MISREADING ME! It geniunely annoys me. I didn't say that this was intent of Toby. I said that even if such intend existed in reality, implementing it would take precious time and resources, things Toby lacked.

I am indeed not misreading you. I'm telling you the only way this point is valid is if it was clear that it was Toby's intent, which it isn't so we can't assume.

No. Anyone that looked at code of Undertale can see for themselves limits of his abilities. Anyone that knows about specifics about development, knows that he didn't have time. "This mechanic is not difficult, I can just add it with ease" is mindset that kills many gamedev projects. And wasting time on UT is even worse, since it wasn't even his goal, Toby goal was creating DR. UT was supposed to be more easier game(in complexity), wasting time on such unimportant thing such as relationship between damage and speed would he idiotic to him.

You are slowly getting to my point, keep going, let me repeat myself, the KE was never meant to be a factor for UT characters for Toby. Using it like this calc does is stupid and contradicted by said damage. You yourself said Toby wouldn't waste time on it because, I will tell you again, he never took it as a factor, and it never will be. Magic in UT works on ATK, that's it, speed doesn't change the power of attacks in any of the fights and is never said to. This alongside all the other inconsistencies already tells you everything.

No. I have already said that objects in UT deal contact damage. Didn't you see me spouting about it

I did see, and I asked you what does that prove, if we go by KE like the calc does, said object, regardless of contact damage, it would do even more damage if launched at supersonic speeds, yet it doesn't here.

Ah, the classic "but gun", only use that shit if you're planning to downgrade them to low-mid end 9-B or 9-C, not to 9-A or 9-B+.

No one is saying this man. It's that one of the defense for calculation was just that gravity and umbrellas are somehow upscaled in Undertale just so the calc can be valid, be so fr. Read the entire context.

The context here is that inconsistencies for the calculations are genuinely being justified by "umbrella upscales" and "wall upscales". This is different than if a verse has numerous higher feats then proceeds to get hurt by a gun.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Reaper Ninja'd me

 

[Qurbonboev]

I'm pretty sure CGM thread can be used to discuss if a pixel-scaling method should not be used in a calculation. Some CGM can correct me on this if I'm wrong.

This isn't about classical pixelscaling problems(like panels showing same things at totally different size), this is about whether objects in battlebox are actual representation of things, whether battlebox is diegetical or nah. It requires much deeper conversation than this one.

I did see, and I asked you what does that prove, if we go by KE like the calc does, said object, regardless of contact damage, it would do even more damage if launched at supersonic speeds, yet it doesn't here.

I have already said it, contact damage in UT is just gameplay mechanics. We tend to ignore such things.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can't just say that anything that doesn't fit with your scaling actually simply upscales, so that it's no longer an issue

If you wanna pull this kind of shit to umbrellas that were created with magic, then that's just dishonest as hell. You can't prove these are normal umbrellas, meaning that using it as an anti-feat is nonsensical. Atp the next thing is saying that Immeasurable speed for God tiers is dumb because Asriel still uses lightning bolts as attacks.

Anyway, anything else was already handled by Qurbonboev, thank him for writing in my place.

And yes, a lot of these complaints have to be taken in a CRT, Calculation forum should talk about only the math.

 

[Rodriiogo]

This isn't about classical pixelscaling problems(like panels showing same things at totally different size), this is about whether objects in battlebox are actual representation of things, whether battlebox is diegetical or nah. It requires much deeper conversation than this one.

Not really deep and the idea of the legs he summons being that much bigger and the same density is still bs regardless. But whatever.

I have already said it, contact damage in UT is just gameplay mechanics. We tend to ignore such things.

Genuinely explain your point cause it's making no sense right now. "It's game mechanics so we can't use basic logic on the fact that speed does not buff it's damage" is that what you're saying?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Not really deep and the idea of the legs he summons being that much bigger and the same density is still bs regardless.

Still not question that should be solved by CGM.

Genuinely explain your point cause it's making no sense right now. "It's game mechanics so we can't use basic logic on the fact that speed does not buff it's damage" is that what you're saying?

I am just saying that you are digging too deep by thinking about why even motionless legs do damage to us. In many games just being in contact with enemy is enough to get damage.