Re:Zero High/Top Tiers Revision

[MrTayman616]

This thread is to apply the accepted changes for these two calculations in these threads.

The changes:

• Reinhard clears the sky section is going to be removed.
• Garfiel Punches Clouds is going to be changed with this calculation, Calculation 2: Version 2.

There is no change in the scaling chain. Those who scales to Reinhard's sword attack will now scale to 10x above Garfiel's punch. The reasoning is that The Divine Dragon Volcanica, who was possessed by Aldebaran's memories, was able to easily defeat Garfiel. The Divine Dragon Volcanica was normally weakened to 1/10th of its usual power, and it became even less for Aldebaran since he hadn't learn how to use it at that point. Volcanica's situation is already accepted in the wiki and scaled that way as well.

I find it being "1/10th of it's usual strength" questionable though, since it doesn't appear to be about having only 1/10th of his power left but more of consciousness. I don't think this works as a multiplier. Of course, being weaker based on not having your spirit is a given, but not that "I'm half sleepy, so i'm at 50% of my strength" type of thing. The statement here isn't clear based on our multiplier standards.

If it's refused in this thread, the characters that are far above Garfiel will have "likely far higher" rating along with the new calculation's rating. Volcanica's 1/10th scaling will be removed.

Option 1:
"1/10th" remains the same, so those who scales to Garfiel:

At least Country level

Those who scales to Reinhard's attack

At least Country level, Large Country with "X", likely far higher

It depends on their profile.

Option 2:
"1/10th" is going to be removed, so those who scales to Garfiel:

At least Country level

Those who scales far above him

At least Country level, likely far higher

It depends on their profile again.

Additions:

• Reinhard's range will no longer be "Thousands of Kilometers" as there is actually no confirmation that Reinhard's slash affected the entire storm, and is heavily disagreed by anime and manga versions. In the anime version, it reaches the clouds and expands vertically but doesn't really expand horizontally nor close to affect the entire storm. In the manga version, it slashes through the sky straight and then clouds disband later by itself. The range should be the distance to reach the clouds, which should be 8304.8 meters in my opinion as it was a storm, raining and snowing etc. I also believe his "Tens of Kilometers" should also be removed, as being at the height of clouds isn't the same as horizon distance. It shouldn't be 20 kilometers but simply average cloud height. It'd be 914 meters in this case based on Cumulus clouds as they are the most common ones on land. I might be wrong about that though, maybe it just being "Tens of Kilometers" works with the current justification.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Yeah... Option 2 is far safer, since it's pretty clear it's not a multiplier that's talked about when mentioning being at only 10%.

I agree with the thread.

 

[Cipher72]

I am neutral but leaning towards disagreement on the 1/10th segment because it does correlate strength to it being hollow so I think it's viable but I can see that's its not very clear-cut per the standards. I will go with Option 1 for now. As for the range yes I agree with the removal of the reasoning being used but since Reinhard can EE the world shouldn't his hax via Reid scale to that or no ?

 

[Adestral]

Agree

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Agree

@Astral_Trinity439 What have I said about creating alt accounts?

 

[Zabazab]

Emilia should highkey scale to 1/50th the 6-B value...

“Absolute Zero.”

That was what Subaru had called it. It was a theory, an idea that they had decided would be difficult to actually perform.

Ironically, at the same time that Subaru was shouting about not being able to trust himself in a one-shot match on the highest stage, Emilia was testing her luck with something she had never once succeeded at, either.

—And she would have to make it succeed.

If Emilia’s natural magic power was at a level one, then the force of the magic that she was manifesting with her overflowing power now was at a level ten or maybe even a level one hundred. —Volume 25, Chapter 8, "—I Ask Thy Will"

 

[MrTayman616]

I am neutral but leaning towards disagreement on the 1/10th segment because it does correlate strength to it being hollow so I think it's viable but I can see that's its not very clear-cut per the standards. I will go with Option 1 for now.

The person would be weaker, yes. But the point is that would it be 1/10th of it's strength? This is basically "I'm half sleepy = I'm at half my strength" type of argument. Of course he'll be weaker, but it doesn't mean to same degree. That's why it doesn't work as a multiplier imo.

As for the range yes I agree with the removal of the reasoning being used but since Reinhard can EE the world shouldn't his hax via Reid scale to that or no ?

He doesn't actually destroy the entire planet. Heavily contradicted by manga as well (which seems to be the most accurate adaptation based on novel).

 

[Cipher72]

He doesn't actually destroy the entire planet. Heavily contradicted by manga as well (which seems to be the most accurate adaptation based on novel).

I thought it was accepted that he re-created the world mb, then yea I agree with the removal of that segment.

The person would be weaker, yes. But the point is that would it be 1/10th of it's strength? This is basically "I'm half sleepy = I'm at half my strength" type of argument. Of course he'll be weaker, but it doesn't mean to same degree. That's why it doesn't work as a multiplier imo.

I will have to disagree with this a bit, while I can acknowledge that it's not the perfect statement for a multiplier it still works.

“Emilia, that isn’t the issue. This can’t be called forgetfulness,” Beatrice said.
“Huh?”
“I suppose you feel it as well, Echidna. This dragon is…”
“You’re right. It’s obvious when you take a closer look. This isn’t mere mental degradation. The dragon is hollow.”
“Hollow”…?”
Emilia cocked her head in confusion at the two artificial spirits’ words.
“It’s exactly what it sounds like. The soul is gone… leaving nothing inside. What remains can only recite certain words and employ a limited set of responses.
Think of it like being ninety percent asleep.”
“Ninety percent… But it was really strong.”
“If its soul were present, it would have been incomparably stronger.”
Emilia shuddered, catching the implied You got lucky in Echidna’s tone.
With the help of her ice soldiers, Emilia had just barely survived. It was unbelievable that Volcanica had essentially been half asleep the entire fight.

I will try to explain my interpretation of this text (I have very vague memories of this ngl so correct me if I am missing some context)
Essentially Volcanica is mentally handicapped and hollow as in it lacks a soul which translates to it's strength being ⅒ of what it should be if it wasn't hollow and had it's soul.
The asleep comparison is used to help us understand by comparing the lack of it's soul and mental handicap to a person 90% asleep, essentially due to Volcanica being devoid of its soul it was acting half/90% asleep (limited response and mental functions) not that it was half asleep, later on its lack of soul is directly compared to its strength.
We also know that the % of it's sleepiness is irrelevant because of the contradiction between the last line and the 90% asleep best to interpret it as “fighting at 90% strength” because Emilia directly says

«90% but it was really strong»

Essentially;
Lack of Soul and Mental Handicap = 10% Strength
With Soul = 100% Strength
The “asleep” is just irrelevant and used to give us an idea of the state Volcanica was in during the fight since well we can't rlly tell what it's like to fight without a soul.

 

[MrTayman616]

I will try to explain my interpretation of this text (I have very vague memories of this ngl so correct me if I am missing some context)
Essentially the Dragon is mentally Handicapped and Hollow as in it lacks a soul which translates to it's strength being ⅒ of it should be if it wasn't hollow and had it's soul.
The asleep comparison is used to help us understand by comparing the lack of it's soul and mental handicap to a person 90% asleep, essentially due to Volcanica being devoid of its soul it was acting half asleep (limited response and mental functions) not that it was half asleep, later on its lack of soul is directly compared to its strength.
We also know that the % of it's sleepiness is irrelevant because of the contradiction between the last line and the 90% asleep.
Essentially;
Lack of Soul and Mental Handicap = 10% Strength
With Soul = 100% Strength
The “asleep” is just irrelevant and used to give us an idea of the state Volcanica was in during the fight since well we can't rlly tell what it's like to fight without a soul.

They're not calling it 10% strength though. They're not talking about his power level or state of strength while saying that value. His overall state is weak, which also affects it's power. Him being weaker based on his soul being lacking is a given, but it being to the same degree isn't.

If they were to say "He's only 10% awake, so he's only at 1/10th of his strength" or etc, it'd be fine. But they're saying "He's only 10% awake, he'd be incomparably stronger normally".

The point isn't to prove him being weaker or stronger based on it, but the rate of it being the same or not. This type of thing is not accepted based on our multiplier standards

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

It isn't specified. It doesn't work here.

 

[Cipher72]

They're not calling it 10% strength though. They're not talking about his power level or state of strength while saying that value. His overall state is weak, which also affects it's power. Him being weaker based on his soul being lacking is a given, but it being to the same degree isn't.

I C, I interpreted it as
He is 90% asleep = He is using 10% of his strength.

If they were to say "He's only 10% awaken, so he's only at 1/10th of his strength" or etc, it'd be fine. But they're saying "He's only 10% awaken, he'd be incomparably stronger normally".

I feel like being 10* stronger is a lot and sometimes there are exaggerations like these but yea I can see the concerns

The point isn't to prove him being weaker or stronger based on it, but the rate of it being the same or not. This type of thing is not accepted based on our multiplier standards

It isn't specified. It doesn't work here.

I am pretty neutral about that. Like I said it's the not the best of statements to use but I do agree that going the safe route i.e Option 2 has it's own merits.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

we should still figure out his range from the world destruction-recreation feat, since it has to be a long distance one way or another, whether its a hax or not

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Following but I am ready to do Multi Continental Deku Vs Reinhard

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Following but I am ready to do Multi Continental Deku Vs Reinhard

that is still not gonna work

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

that is still not gonna work

Unequal speed. Reinhard Vs Mr Fa Jin Gear Shift blitz ez

 

[Cipher72]

Unequal speed. Reinhard Vs Mr Fa Jin Gear Shift blitz ez

Didn't know Deku could blitz Low Godly Resurrection

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Didn't know Deku could blitz Low Godly Resurrection

This mf got knocked out and incapacitated in a previous match. I’m running with that

 

[Zabazab]

I also believe his "Tens of Kilometers" should also be removed, as being at the height of clouds isn't the same as horizon distance. It shouldn't be 20 kilometers but simply average cloud height. It'd be 914 meters in this case based on Cumulus clouds as they are the most common ones on land. I might be wrong about that though, maybe it just being "Tens of Kilometers" works with the current justification.

He scales from Cecilus who has tens of kilometres range regardless. Sky-splits are horizontal as well as vertical.

Reinhard's range will no longer be "Thousands of Kilometers" as there is actually no confirmation that Reinhard's slash affected the entire storm, and is heavily disagreed by anime and manga versions. In the anime version, it reaches the clouds and expands vertically but doesn't really expand horizontally nor close to affect the entire storm. In the manga version, it slashes through the sky straight and then clouds disband later by itself. The range should be the distance to reach the clouds, which should be 8304.8 meters in my opinion as it was a storm, raining and snowing etc.

The anime does not show the aftermath of the slash, it just shows Reinhard raising his sword and then Puck dying, so you can't say it disagrees with Reinhard affecting the whole storm.

The manga does not specify the clouds disband by themselves, and "later" actualy means "the very next page". The novel too describes it the dispersal as one moment. Reinhard destroyed and recreated everything that was frozen, so he does in fact scale to the full range of the storm.

The next instant, Reinhard raised the Dragon Sword above his head, and there was a single flash of light― the sky split, cracks running through the very air; the earth crumbled; mana swirled in a vortex; and along the arc of his slash the world... slid.

The moment after that cascading slash settled down, the white, cold air covering the world... recovered. The slide in the world was repaired, the parts that had become a swirling vortex of mana reverted to their proper forms, flowers budded forth from the shattered earth, and peace spread throughout the cracked air. From the sky, dazzling sunrays poured down.

The slash of the Sword Saint had ended the world and simultaneously brought about it's re-creation― and the enormous beast had been bathed in that slash had been annihilated from the world without a trace.

There were not even side-effects of destruction to be seen, that a battle had even taken place seemed like nothing but a dream. (Volume 12, Chapter 5)

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

This mf got knocked out and incapacitated in a previous match. I’m running with that

yeah that matchup needs to be sacked too, i do have some time now, Deku could get a 10x blitz gap and Reinhard would still be fine
plus like, he also adapts to shit, its just that garou adaption is really fast. Deku doesnt have that.

 

[VortechsTG]

Back to the topic of the thread. I am neutral on the 10x multiplier. I will admit the statement for it is a little questionable, but the actual difference is power between Garfiel and full power Volcanica should be way way way more than 10x anyway.

As for the range, the written description makes it clear that, at least to the horizon, the storm, all the snow on the ground, and all of the destruction caused by Puck were completely gone without a trace. Tens of kilometers should stay. I would find it odd if this had only been done to this small section of the total area Puck had frozen over and destroyed, but there isn't explicit mention of it so I am neutral on the removal of thousands of kilometers as well.

 

[MrTayman616]

He scales from Cecilus who has tens of kilometres range regardless. Sky-splits are horizontal as well as vertical.

I see. Scaling to Cecilus is fine. (does his cloud slashing feat reach the horizon though?)

The anime does not show the aftermath of the slash, it just shows Reinhard raising his sword and then Puck dying, so you can't say it disagrees with Reinhard affecting the whole storm.

We don't see the aftermath, but we can see it since he already used the slash there

The manga does not specify the clouds disband by themselves, and "later" actualy means "the very next page".

It doesn't have to specify something like that at all, especially since it is visually extremely clear. Reinhard doesn't slash the entire clouds or anything nor affects the entire of it, at least not in the manga.

The novel too describes it the dispersal as one moment. Reinhard destroyed and recreated everything that was frozen, so he does in fact scale to the full range of the storm

Novel doesn't really describe it like that though? It specifically talks about how the world slid and recovered.

Even if that wasn't the case, that text doesn't even imply the clouds that are thousands of kilometers away or anything of that level gets affected. We still don't have anything for beyond what's visible from Subaru's perspective there. It would just apply to the horizon.

Also, the explanation in the novel is basically what we see in the manga. Even in that case, it wouldn't apply to his sword slash's range.

 

[MrTayman616]

Back to the topic of the thread. I am neutral on the 10x multiplier. I will admit the statement for it is a little questionable, but the actual difference is power between Garfiel and full power Volcanica should be way way way more than 10x anyway.

This isn't how we apply multipliers though. I also think it's probably way way more than 10x. But in this case, it just means adding "likely far higher" alongside the rating.

We can't just turn it into a multiplier just because "it'd be logical power wise" or anything similar.

 

[Zabazab]

We don't see the aftermath, but we can see it since he already used the slash there

The anime does not show Reinhard swinging his sword. It shows him raising his sword, and then it cuts to Puck crumbling, and fades to white into the next scene.

The anime adapts up to "The next instant, Reinhard raised the Dragon Sword above his head, and there was a single flash of light―" and cuts the entire rest of the scene. You can't use it.

It doesn't have to specify something like that at all, especially since it is visually extremely clear. Reinhard doesn't slash the entire clouds or anything nor affects the entire of it, at least not in the manga.

Novel doesn't really describe it like that though? It specifically talks about how the world slid and recovered.

The manga shows that the storm has ceased, that the frozen earth and dead plantlife has been restored to normal, and that the cold nighttime has become the warm daytime by the time Reinhard sheathed his sword. And as the novel states, Reinhard destroyed and recreated the frozen world Puck created. Here it is again. He scales to the full range.

 

[VortechsTG]

This isn't how we apply multipliers though. I also think it's probably way way more than 10x. But in this case, it just means adding "likely far higher" alongside the rating.

We can't just turn it into a multiplier just because "it'd be logical power wise" or anything similar.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to think that the 10% awake thing suggests that because it aligns with everything else we know.

 

[MrTayman616]

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to think that the 10% awake thing suggests that because it aligns with everything else we know.

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

It would align of course, because we know it causes the dragon to be weaker and the difference in strength between Garfiel and Dragon is obvious.

But that isn't a reason for this statement to work as a multiplier.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I would like to emphasize the fact that Reinhard changed the night time to day time for no apparent reason, but I do want your speculations on it

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agree with everything. Yeah, I don't see how that statement works as multiplier valid for calculations, at least. It's like saying "If I'm not sleepy I am 2x better", but that's just referring to being more responsive and better combat, not sheer physical output

@Astral_Trinity439 What have I said about creating alt accounts?

How did bro find out

 

[Random-Helper323]

If the calculations are accepted that's acceptable.

Option 2 does seem a bit safer, but honestly option 1 doesn't seem unreasonable either.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Option 2 probably works best for now, and I think Reinhard should still scale to the range of Puck's storm.

 

[MrTayman616]

Whoops, i forgot i made this.

Re:Zero threads require two votes iirc, so i'll be applying Option 2. (Excluding Range)

 

[MrTayman616]

Oh, this can be closed.

 

[Cipher72]

Oh, this can be closed.

Lol

 

[Reiner04]

Closing.