Blazblue: Removing some of Hazama's powers and resistances

[LiveElvinClive]

There are a few powers and one resistance in Hazama's profile that should be removed.

Regeneration (Low-High; Regenerated from getting kicked so hard he was reduced to a drop of blood)

• This doesn't seem bad on its own until you realize the evidence is a cropped page. The full image shows he was kicked into a pool, and as shown in the next two pages, the “drop of blood” is Terumi’s ghost form.

Precognition and Cosmic Awareness (Observed and was aware of every single possibility to the point that he was able to outsmart Takamagahara by finding the one point in time where they wouldn't observe him, which was a really small timeframe)

• This was copy-pasted from Terumi's profile, and there's nothing in these scans that prove this ability would extend to Hazama. If it's supposed to be because they shared powers when he was Terumi's vessel, it's unnecessary when there's already a tab linking to Terumi's profile

Immunity to Soul Manipulation (Lacks a soul thanks to his separation with Terumi, who was his soul)

• The screenshot only says that Terumi severed his connection to Hazama using a sword that can cut the spirit. This on its own doesn't imply that Hazama is able to exist without a soul

Resistance to Sleep Manipulation (Scaling from Ragna who resisted being put into deep sleep by Shiori)

• Hazama has never shown this, and there is no reason to assume he’d share this resistance.
• Edit: Putting aside that this resistance doesn't have any scans in Ragna's profile, looking at the scene where it happens, it seems to be a power Ragna naturally resists. It's not something he can only resist because of his Azure Grimoire, which I'm assuming is why Hazama has this resistance

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Bumping

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Bump

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

this seems fine at a glance but I'm not a expert on the verse

 

[Theglassman12]

Why would terumi's ghost form pop out if he's tied to Hazama directly as his vessel? He'd only do that if some major damage happened to Hazama that he'd have to come out to do something himself, plus given how Hazama's entire body is an Azure Grimoire, something that gave Ragna intense healing factors, it's not that much of a stretch to say he'd be able to heal. Though I could argue the regen is much higher given he can self observe as a being outside of logic.

Hazama himself directly says this when talking about it to Ragna as well. Plus the games go out of their way to specify whether it's Hazama or Terumi speaking as evidenced with them swapping names when Noel confronts them.

Hazama exists as an empty vessel for Terumi to take over. Him and Kazuma only exists to be a proper vessel for Terumi to inhabit since he's a literal spirit who lives in other bodies to do his deeds.

The scans literally talk about how he's the holder of the azure grimoire as a way to warn those who's not familiar with Ragna in the first place. Hazama's entire body is a superior Azure Grimoire compared to Ragna's so I don't see why he wouldn't scale to it.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Why would terumi's ghost form pop out if he's tied to Hazama directly as his vessel? He'd only do that if some major damage happened to Hazama that he'd have to come out to do something himself, plus given how Hazama's entire body is an Azure Grimoire, something that gave Ragna intense healing factors, it's not that much of a stretch to say he'd be able to heal. Though I could argue the regen is much higher given he can self observe as a being outside of logic.

Going off what's shown in the chapter, there's nothing that says Hazama suffered any major damage. The only thing we're shown is Hazama gets kicked into a pool and Terumi emerges because he's pissed off at Meifang telling Hazama not to get too cocky.

Hazama himself directly says this when talking about it to Ragna as well. Plus the games go out of their way to specify whether it's Hazama or Terumi speaking as evidenced with them swapping names when Noel confronts them.

They do swap names under most circumstances, but not in the ending for Hazama's Continuum Shift story. Right after the cutscene where he talks about observing the continuum shift, the dialogue about creating the Azure Grimoire and Ragna's hatred anchoring him to the world is also labeled under "Hazama" when both of those would only apply to Terumi.

Hazama exists as an empty vessel for Terumi to take over. Him and Kazuma only exists to be a proper vessel for Terumi to inhabit since he's a literal spirit who lives in other bodies to do his deeds.

That still doesn't make the Immunity to Soul Manipulation screenshot relevant to its description. The description says he "Lacks a soul thanks to his separation with Terumi, who was his soul." It links a screenshot of Hazama talking about a blade that can cut the spirit and that blade being used to sever his connection. The screenshot by itself doesn't say anything about him lacking a soul.

The scans literally talk about how he's the holder of the azure grimoire as a way to warn those who's not familiar with Ragna in the first place. Hazama's entire body is a superior Azure Grimoire compared to Ragna's so I don't see why he wouldn't scale to it.

Nothing in the scans imply that the Azure Grimoire specifically is what allows Ragna to resist Shiori's poison. All they say is the poison doesn't work on Ragna, and Bell warns about him owning the Azure Grimoire after he uses an Ars Magus to destroy his binds. If Bell gave that warning immediately after it was revealed the poison didn't affect him, I could see the argument, but that's not what the scans show.

 

[Theglassman12]

Except for the fact that Terumi wouldn't exit Hazama's body unless something major happened to him. Plus they're tied as one singular being with the six heroes having to forcibly remove them from each other in order for the heroes to have a shot at killing Terumi. Also where does it say she just kicks him to the pool when we literally just see a huge explosion and only droplets of blood are there, with Terumi's ghost coming out of it?

Hazama is an azure grimoire, I don't see why he'd be incapable of knowing how to make one himself when he's literally an azure grimoire itself. As for the latter, we see Hazama in CF get empowered by hatred by himself when he angers Ragna over what he's doing to Rachel, so no that's not a Terumi specific thing, plus again, the game goes out of its way to show when it's Hazama and Terumi speaking when the hat's off and Hazama's hair starts to spike, it's literally Terumi.

Yes and he's a vessel to Terumi, who's literally a soul designed to possess specific individuals to exist as he doesn't have any real physical body after he shed the Susanoo unit itself. What part of that is hard to understand when the whole point of Hazama is that he's an artificial life form designed to be Terumi's vessel?

Except for the fact Shiori's poison hits Ragna's arm? The arm with the Azure Grimoire that he powers up with to break Taro's threads like it's nothing? We literally see them hit his arm and that same arm is what's activating the Azure grimoire.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Also where does it say she just kicks him to the pool when we literally just see a huge explosion and only droplets of blood are there, with Terumi's ghost coming out of it?

The "huge explosion" is him getting kicked into the pool of water where Meifang was bathing before he showed up. There aren't any droplets of blood when she kicks him in. If you're talking about the black streaks in the water, that's shading. We see similar streaks while Meifang is laying in the bath, and they're also beneath her when she kicks Hazama.

Hazama is an azure grimoire, I don't see why he'd be incapable of knowing how to make one himself when he's literally an azure grimoire itself. As for the latter, we see Hazama in CF get empowered by hatred by himself when he angers Ragna over what he's doing to Rachel, so no that's not a Terumi specific thing

Hazama being an Azure Grimoire doesn't mean he'd know how to make one. And that second point you're trying to make is wrong too. Hazama's amazed at how it feels to be hated and says it's no wonder Terumi could use it to grow stronger. That doesn't mean Hazama also has that power.

plus again, the game goes out of its way to show when it's Hazama and Terumi speaking when the hat's off and Hazama's hair starts to spike, it's literally Terumi.

The game still calls him Hazama when Terumi shows up with the hat off and hair spiked. We see this in Ragna's ending when Terumi- with his hair spiked up- is still called Hazama by the game while talking about how he created the Azure Grimoire.

Yes and he's a vessel to Terumi, who's literally a soul designed to possess specific individuals to exist as he doesn't have any real physical body after he shed the Susanoo unit itself. What part of that is hard to understand when the whole point of Hazama is that he's an artificial life form designed to be Terumi's vessel?

The point I'm trying to make is that the scan used to argue he's immune to soul manipulation doesn't say he lacks a soul. It says he had his connection to Terumi severed by a blade that can cut the spirit. Hazama being hit by a spirit-cutting blade doesn't prove he lacks a soul. The only thing the current scan proves is he'd resist soul manipulation.

 

[Theglassman12]

The "black streaks of water" comes from Terumi's spirit, and again, why would his literal ghost come out if Hazama as his vessel is ok? He'd wouldn't do that unless something severe happened to his vessel, like what he did when Relius tore up Hazama in Continuum Shift and used that to send his spirit to catch Takamagahara off guard.

Why are we assuming he wouldn't know how to make one when he's a captain of the NOL and is a part of the Intelligence Department? For a guy who's been with terumi for a long time it's not that out of left field to assume he'd be able to make the azure grimoire, especially when his entire body is an Azure Grimoire, he knows how the power works when he's able to use it more efficiently than Ragna can so why are we assuming that making an Azure would be far fetched to someone like Hazama? So Hazama saying he observed everything and not Terumi means Hazama would be able to do the same thing. If he didn't have that power, why is Hazama commenting on the hatred he's receiving on top of activating the azure's powers with the amount of killing intent and hatred he's getting from Ragna? That's implying he has the same access to Terumi's hatred empowerment, which isn't a far fetched concept when he's made to be his vessel.

Yes, and Terumi is the guy who's constantly possessing his body up until that point. We even see how Hazama's a literal shell of a being as he's showing the wound he got from Trinity. He's not a normal being, he's quite literally a shell that's made to house the spirit of a god.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Why are we assuming he wouldn't know how to make one when he's a captain of the NOL and is a part of the Intelligence Department?

Yes, Hazama likely would know how to make an Azure Grimoire, but unless that is directly stated it shouldn't be presented on his page as fact. It's speculation that makes sense, but is still speculation.

Same, even moreso in fact, with him being able to hate-amp himself like Terumi. Would it be weird if he could do that? No. Does it tell us directly that he can do that? Also no.

 

[Theglassman12]

He is from the Intelligence Department as a Captain and the NOL knows how to manage the Boundary unlike Sector Seven. I doubt he's incapable of doing such things, and again we literally have Hazama tell us he observed the entire Continuum Shift and in several other instances he can observe things or intervene at will so him doing the things Terumi can do isn't out of left field.

The hate amp is something Hazama is stated to be affected by in a positive way. He even comments on the hatred Ragna is giving him that's letting him power up his Azure Grimoire in the end of Central Fiction before he falls into the Cauldron to run away.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

The "black streaks of water" comes from Terumi's spirit, and again, why would his literal ghost come out if Hazama as his vessel is ok? He'd wouldn't do that unless something severe happened to his vessel, like what he did when Relius tore up Hazama in Continuum Shift and used that to send his spirit to catch Takamagahara off guard.

There's nothing in the page that suggests this, especially since, again, we see similar shading while Meifang is bathing and the same shading is under her in the same page where she kicks him. And he's appeared separate from Hazama in Variable Heart's final chapter, with there being nothing to imply Hazama was severely damaged at that time.

Why are we assuming he wouldn't know how to make one when he's a captain of the NOL and is a part of the Intelligence Department? For a guy who's been with terumi for a long time it's not that out of left field to assume he'd be able to make the azure grimoire, especially when his entire body is an Azure Grimoire, he knows how the power works when he's able to use it more efficiently than Ragna can so why are we assuming that making an Azure would be far fetched to someone like Hazama?

Because there is nothing directly stated or implied in the games that Hazama being an Azure Grimoire means he'd know how to make one. As Creaturemaster said, that's speculation, not a fact that's reflected in game.

Saying Hazama could make an Azure Grimoire because he is one and can use it more efficiently than Ragna would be like saying "Humans have skin. We've lived with it our entire lives, so we'd know how to recreate skin"

So Hazama saying he observed everything and not Terumi means Hazama would be able to do the same thing. If he didn't have that power, why is Hazama commenting on the hatred he's receiving on top of activating the azure's powers with the amount of killing intent and hatred he's getting from Ragna? That's implying he has the same access to Terumi's hatred empowerment, which isn't a far fetched concept when he's made to be his vessel.

The scene where he says he observed everything is Terumi speaking through Hazama. As I explained already, Hazama's ending still calls him Hazama even when it's visually Terumi taking over his body and speaking through him.

Hazama comments on the hatred he's receiving because he's amazed at how it feels to be hated this much. He's not saying being hated is making him stronger. He's saying he can see how Terumi became stronger from it. That doesn't mean he shares that ability.

Yes, and Terumi is the guy who's constantly possessing his body up until that point. We even see how Hazama's a literal shell of a being as he's showing the wound he got from Trinity. He's not a normal being, he's quite literally a shell that's made to house the spirit of a god.

Him being constantly possessed and his body being a shell aren't proof he doesn't have a soul.

 

[Theglassman12]

So explain why Terumi has to come out in his spirit form if Hazama's body isn't remotely destroyed by the kick Meifang threw at him, if Hazama was fine he's just come out normally, but he doesn't. Also that scene when Meifang talks to Terumi happens way before that scene with Hazama and Phantom btw, where he already got done talking to Meifang and turned her into a Black beast vessel, so you cannot say that they're separated at the same time when some time has passed between that conversation and the aftermath of the fight.

Nothing implied despite the fact he's in the intelligence department of the NOL, the same folks who knows how to manage cauldrons, something the Azure Grimoire is btw, and has worked with Terumi for a while now. Also nice false equivalence there when humans and Hazama are two completely different people here.

No, Hazama still has his hat on when talking, that's Hazama speaking not Terumi. The fact that the story portraits for Hazama when his hat is off literally mirrors Terumi's own portraits from Chronophantasma onward is a visual indicator Terumi is the one taking over. Otherwise their portraits wouldn't have been made to literally look identical to one another to show when Terumi is taking over or when Hazama is in charge. If he doesn't share the ability, explain why he claims he can use the hatred for his Azure Grimoire right before his fight with Ragna, something Rachel comments on that he's doing as well btw.

Except for the fact his only existence is to hold Terumi in as he literally has no physical form since he's the Susanoo unit's soul. Can you make an actual argument beyond just saying "it's not enough" without elaborating on how or why it's not enough?

 

[Armorchompy]

Can I get a summary of each side's points?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy I'll assume Clive's conceded on the sleep resistances given he's stopped responding to the points but I'll give the summary on the rest.

Regeneration: Clive's arguing it shouldn't count because all we see is a splash and nothing else with Hazama, my argument is that Hazama getting kicked so hard that the only thing left with Hazama is Terumi's own spirit, who's tied to him as an individual and is inseparable with the main heroes having to forcibly rip them apart to give them a chance to kill Terumi. There's literally no reason for us to assume Hazama's fine when Terumi's own ghost comes out, something he doesn't do unless something major in damage happens to Hazama, and Hazama's an Azure Grimoire, who has superior regenerative properties than Ragna, a guy who gets cut clean through and impaled numerous times and is still able to heal off such wounds.

Precognition and Cosmic Awareness: Clive's arguing it's a Terumi thing and not a Hazama thing for him to observe the future and see everything, I'm arguing that they both share the same abilities when not only does Hazama himself flat out say this, but he shares a lot of the same powers that Terumi would have, even the hatred empowerment given how Hazama comments on the hatred Ragna has towards him and is using it to amplify himself just like how Terumi does. Plus the game itself goes out of its way to show when Hazama is talking or when Terumi is talking via their portraits as Hazama has his default portraits when talking, and when Terumi takes over, his portraits mimic Terumi's actual portrait.

Immunity to Soul Hax: Clive's arguing that just because Hazama and Terumi separated, that it doesn't mean Hazama himself lacks a soul. I'm arguing that Hazama is an artificial human/Azure Grimoire made for the sole purpose of housing Terumi inside of him as Terumi is a literal spirit with no physical form, and Hazama is meant to be his physical body. Not only with that being the basic background of what Hazama is, him being an Azure Grimoire makes him compatible with a Prime Field Device, a being who's stated at several instances to lack a soul when they're created, and only gain a soul later on when they develop their own identity. There's also Hazama flat out showing an open wound he got where he literally is an empty shell of a person with nothing inside, and this is after they separated Hazama with Terumi.

 

[Planck69]

I disagree with the removals, based on the above posts. That Hazama statement for Precognition seems especially blatant to me. I think the only slightly debatable aspect is the regeneration, but the surrounding context seems solid enough to justify it staying.

 

[Reiner04]

Yeah, reading the thread i agree with Glassman here.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy I'll assume Clive's conceded on the sleep resistances given he's stopped responding to the points but I'll give the summary on the rest.

Regeneration: Clive's arguing it shouldn't count because all we see is a splash and nothing else with Hazama, my argument is that Hazama getting kicked so hard that the only thing left with Hazama is Terumi's own spirit, who's tied to him as an individual and is inseparable with the main heroes having to forcibly rip them apart to give them a chance to kill Terumi. There's literally no reason for us to assume Hazama's fine when Terumi's own ghost comes out, something he doesn't do unless something major in damage happens to Hazama, and Hazama's an Azure Grimoire, who has superior regenerative properties than Ragna, a guy who gets cut clean through and impaled numerous times and is still able to heal off such wounds.

This seems flatly wrong. The damage the profile claim happened just simply isn't shown. He wasn't "reduced to a drop of blood", even you seem to agree that the wisp there is Terumi's spirit and not what the profile says. If you wanna argue he necessarily took X damage for the spirit to come out sure, that can be Regen, but it doesn't imply the currently listed level of the ability. There's a lot of states between "major damage" and Low-High.

@Planck69 @Reiner04 in particular I would ask you to evaluate your own agreements with this part of the thread. What has been debated isn't really pertaining to the main issue, which is that there isn't any actual evidence for Low-High. Regeneration, maybe, but not that particular level.

Precognition and Cosmic Awareness: Clive's arguing it's a Terumi thing and not a Hazama thing for him to observe the future and see everything, I'm arguing that they both share the same abilities when not only does Hazama himself flat out say this, but he shares a lot of the same powers that Terumi would have, even the hatred empowerment given how Hazama comments on the hatred Ragna has towards him and is using it to amplify himself just like how Terumi does. Plus the game itself goes out of its way to show when Hazama is talking or when Terumi is talking via their portraits as Hazama has his default portraits when talking, and when Terumi takes over, his portraits mimic Terumi's actual portrait.

I'll admit this (specifically the "Is Hazama or Terumi talking" thing) seems like something that can't be really evaluated without context. I'd like to see Clive's response but I'm neutral for now.

Immunity to Soul Hax: Clive's arguing that just because Hazama and Terumi separated, that it doesn't mean Hazama himself lacks a soul. I'm arguing that Hazama is an artificial human/Azure Grimoire made for the sole purpose of housing Terumi inside of him as Terumi is a literal spirit with no physical form, and Hazama is meant to be his physical body. Not only with that being the basic background of what Hazama is, him being an Azure Grimoire makes him compatible with a Prime Field Device, a being who's stated at several instances to lack a soul when they're created, and only gain a soul later on when they develop their own identity. There's also Hazama flat out showing an open wound he got where he literally is an empty shell of a person with nothing inside, and this is after they separated Hazama with Terumi.

If he has a name, personality and will to act of his own, wouldn't that mean he's got an identity?

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, the wisp being Terumi's spirit is because Hazama suffered severe damage in of itself. Plus with the damage being only shown as droplets remaining when the smoke clears out, there's no reason for his spirit to come out if his vessel was ok in the first place.

His name was given to him by Terumi and Relius, he's not someone who was naturally birth, he's an artificial weapon designed to be a vessel for a spirit. His identity is to be Terumi's vessel and nothing else, plus he's made to be compatible with a Prime Field Device, another artificial life form just like him, who is made without a soul, they only gain souls later on and they don't need it to survive.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Also nice false equivalence there when humans and Hazama are two completely different people here.

What is it with people on this site thinking any comparison or allegory that's not a 1-1 is a false equivalence?

The comparison is an exaggeration, as you do when making a comparison to illustrate a point, but it still stands. We don't assume just because someone has or is made of something that they'd know how to create it from scratch.

Again, while that is a reasonable assumption to make about Hazama, it's still nothing more than an assumption, and should be aknowledged as such on the page with a "likely" at the very least.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, the wisp being Terumi's spirit is because Hazama suffered severe damage in of itself. Plus with the damage being only shown as droplets remaining when the smoke clears out, there's no reason for his spirit to come out if his vessel was ok in the first place.

Nobody said it was okay. But being severely damaged doesn't imply it was reduced to a puddle of blood. Please explain to me, what's the actual Low-High feat here?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Creaturemaster971 Being made of something isn't the only thing I've been arguing for Hazama being able to scale to things Terumi has, ignoring the fact we literally have Hazama tell us he can Observe everything when he's not being possessed by Terumi, he literally runs the Intelligence Department of the NOL, the same organization that knows how to operate the cauldrons and manage the Boundary.

@Armorchompy Him being kicked so hard that all that was left is literal droplets of blood when the smoke subsided by Meifang. The fact Terumi comes out of them in his spirit form implies major damage to Hazama as he's his vessel, and he's a superior Azure Grimoire to Ragna's, which lets him regenerate from being stabbed through and being cut clean through.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy Him being kicked so hard that all that was left is literal droplets of blood when the smoke subsided by Meifang.

As was mentioned before, the "droplets of blood" is just the spirit beginning to come out, and even if it isn't, there's no evidence that the rest of the body just isn't underwater. This isn't acceptable evidence.

The fact Terumi comes out of them in his spirit form implies major damage to Hazama as he's his vessel, and he's a superior Azure Grimoire to Ragna's, which lets him regenerate from being stabbed through and being cut clean through.

Stop repeating this, it's entirely irrelevant. I am not contesting that he took damage or that he is capable of regeneration, but neither fact is in any way evidence that it's a Low-High feat.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

@Creaturemaster971 Being made of something isn't the only thing I've been arguing for Hazama being able to scale to things Terumi has, ignoring the fact we literally have Hazama tell us he can Observe everything when he's not being possessed by Terumi, he literally runs the Intelligence Department of the NOL, the same organization that knows how to operate the cauldrons and manage the Boundary.

None of this is direct confirmation.
This are things that lend credence to the idea that he would know how to do this, but nothing directly states it. Hence, I would argue we should qualify it with a "likely". I'm not even motioning that we remove it from his page, just that there's an indication that this is an inference, rather than directly stated. I feel like that wouldn't be a repulsive compromise to consider.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Creaturemaster971 I know you're arguing for a likely, but given how you're saying all of it is an assumption that he'd share the same things Terumi does despite the fact we literally see him get empowered by hatred in the same way Terumi does, arguing it's only a possibility and not something concrete isn't helping when we have confirmation of doing things Terumi can do.

@Armorchompy The spirit coming out from the little remnants of Hazama after the kick that led to the big explosion, which we see look like blood droplets. That, plus the fact the explosion looks like it hit a wall rather than it hitting the pool when Meifang literally left the pool to talk to Hazama would imply he just hit the ground so hard that droplets of blood was all that remained.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy The spirit coming out from the little remnants of Hazama after the kick that led to the big explosion, which we see look like blood droplets. That, plus the fact the explosion looks like it hit a wall rather than it hitting the pool when Meifang literally left the pool to talk to Hazama would imply he just hit the ground so hard that droplets of blood was all that remained.

Not really, that's you working backwards to justify the ability. The spirit is coming from the body of water, it's perfectly feasible that the corpse is just underneath it. Regarding the "looks like it hit a wall" thing that's just kind of not true, it's a big burst of energy, that's going to happen either way. This isn't sufficient proof for such a high rating.

 

[Theglassman12]

Given the explosion from the kick has a vertical view like it came from a wall as opposed to the ground, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say she kicked him far off to the other side of the room. This is the same person who can make donuts into people’s bodies and survived a giant satellite beam from orbit so that’s not out of left field.

 

[Armorchompy]

Given the explosion from the kick has a vertical view like it came from a wall as opposed to the ground, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say she kicked him far off to the other side of the room.

No? It's a splash of water, he was thrown into the pool. Even if he was tossed onto a wall then that's not the area the next panels show meaning Low-High is bunk either way because we don't see where the body would've gone or what state it ended up in. You're seeing blood and concluding that's all that is left with no real reason to.

Can you give me the source for this? I wanna check the chapter.

This is the same person who can make donuts into people’s bodies and survived a giant satellite beam from orbit so that’s not out of left field.

I'm not saying it's out of left field, I'm saying there's no proof. Stop trying to explain that it could make sense I've never put that into question.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Can you give me the source for this? I wanna check the chapter.

The scene happens in Variable Heart chapter 4.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well the area is massive, so if he got kicked into a wall he'd have been way further than any panel we're shown. So I guess even with Glass' interpretation his body can just be off-screen.

 

[Theglassman12]

The body being offscreen doesn't make any sense when Hazama and Terumi are literally one and the same here, the Six Heroes make it a big deal in the 3rd game that they have to forcibly rip Terumi out of Hazama in order for them to have a shot at killing him.

 

[Armorchompy]

The body being offscreen doesn't make any sense when Hazama and Terumi are literally one and the same here, the Six Heroes make it a big deal in the 3rd game that they have to forcibly rip Terumi out of Hazama in order for them to have a shot at killing him.

You're the one who was arguing the body hit a wall. This just disproves that could have happened. And since the spirit comes from the pool, what you're saying very strongly implies that's where Hazama's body went, meaning it's just underwater.

 

[Theglassman12]

Barely anything implies the body is at the pool when both Meifang and Hazama are outside of the pool by the time the kick happened, plus I’m arguing the spirit comes out of the blood droplets.

 

[Armorchompy]

Barely anything implies the body is at the pool when both Meifang and Hazama are outside of the pool by the time the kick happened

Hazama got kicked into the pool. Even if we didn't see a water splash, the spirit comes from the water, and that's proof enough that the body went there.

plus I’m arguing the spirit comes out of the blood droplets.

And that's not enough because the body could just be underwater (or off-screen based on other interpretations). You need iron-solid proof for such a high regen rating, not just a possibility that what we see is all that's left.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

@Creaturemaster971 I know you're arguing for a likely, but given how you're saying all of it is an assumption that he'd share the same things Terumi does despite the fact we literally see him get empowered by hatred in the same way Terumi does, arguing it's only a possibility and not something concrete isn't helping when we have confirmation of doing things Terumi can do.

Do we have more concrete evidence on Terumi's side, then? Because from what I understand it seems like the justification for Hazama has been the aforementioned assumption. If Terumi's got better evidence for it, then that does lend more credence to the idea, in which case we'd probably just have to specify it as deriving from Terumi, and thus might not apply to post-split Hazama.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy The spirit comes from the blood, not the water, though if this whole back and forth is just going to boil down to if he was even in the water or not then I don't think we're gonna make much progress with this debate and we can just call some other staff to finish this.

@Creaturemaster971 Both Terumi and Hazama are stated to being able to do these things. The fact Hazama is meant to complement Terumi's existence to the point of having his own Ouroboros and being empowered by hatred despite being separated from Terumi would suggest he'd share the same kind of abilities, unless we're going to assume that Hazama flat out saying that he can Observe everything is just him lying despite us being shown that he's telling the truth.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy The spirit comes from the blood, not the water, though if this whole back and forth is just going to boil down to if he was even in the water or not then I don't think we're gonna make much progress with this debate and we can just call some other staff to finish this.

There's no evidence it's just coming from the blood because the body could very well be in the water. My problem isn't "he's 100% for sure in the water" although I do think that is the case but even if we didn't know either way the sole possibility would be enough to disagree with Low-High. By all means I'm fine with people getting called though

@Dalesean027 @LephyrTheRevanchist @FinePoint

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, the visuals alone don't really imply to me he got reduced to blood there. There's way too little shading imo if the intention was to show him splattered from the kick (and Meifeng herself should be drenched in it if that was the case). So debating through the visuals alone here is a fools errand when genuinely you could interpret it many different ways, and only a very extreme one concludes with Hazama being reduced to blood.

Are there other feats or showings of Hazama regenerating, tho?

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, the visuals alone don't really imply to me he got reduced to blood there. There's way too little shading imo if the intention was to show him splattered from the kick (and Meifeng herself should be drenched in it if that was the case). So debating through the visuals alone here is a fools errand when genuinely you could interpret it many different ways, and only a very extreme one concludes with Hazama being reduced to blood.

Are there other feats or showings of Hazama regenerating, tho?

To my understanding Hazama does genuinely have the regeneration ability and a fairly high level of it (upscaling from the Low-Mid/Mid range according to glass), my issue is that itself doesn't really prove he was splattered like that.