Chainsaw Man: Is Lazy

[GunshyFever]

Gonna keep this short and sweet.

This calc was rejected by DMUA for calc stacking, specifically because it assumes Pochita's speed is Supersonic based on scaling from Quanxi. The logic there is that Quanxi is canonically Supersonic in base, becomes faster when transformed and Pochita is able to speed blitz her in that state. He can also blitz characters who are capable of perceiving fighters on her level and is generally portrayed as moving so fast that he kills people and destroys objects simply because he can't control his speed or strength.

That said, DMUA brings up a fair point: character speeds are not consistent across every context. Even if Pochita is far beyond baseline Supersonic overall, that does not automatically mean he is moving at that level in every single scene.

In this particular moment, Pochita is visibly far more restrained. There's a noticeable lack of the effort we normally associate with him when he's actually trying or acting on instinct. This is especially important because later in the manga, we repeatedly see Pochita interrupt Yoru's weaponization outright. In contrast, here we have a situation where weapons are able to travel from places like the Gulf of Mexico and Mount Elbrus, complete their weaponization and reach Yoru before Pochita can even touch her.

That difference in portrayal strongly suggests that Pochita is holding back in this scene, or at the very least moving well below his usual combat speed.

Because of that, I made a completely separate calculation that does not rely on scaling from Quanxi or assuming Supersonic chainsaw speed. Instead, I treated Pochita's movement here as Superhuman as a conservative low-end, since we can actually see him moving in the moment, unlike other scenes where he casually kills or destroys things against his will (see the above). This is also a stronger version of Pochita, which further goes to show that this is him not going all out.

If the counter arg is that this entire situation comes down to panel perception or timing ambiguity, that's fine. I'm open to adjusting the endpoint. I'm not trying to push anything above the norm here. If there's a better conservative speed assumption to use for this scene, I'm open to hearing it. The new calc, is also consistent with speeds that Pochita already scales to.

Agree: (0:1) @Breadbear83

Disagree: (3:1) @ElJoaki5 (Believes the former calc is fair game), @Drite77, @Saqphire, @Dalesean027

Neutral: (0:0)

 

[Breadbear83]

Gonna keep this short and sweet.

This calc was rejected by DMUA for calc stacking, specifically because it assumes Pochita's speed is Supersonic based on scaling from Quanxi. The logic there is that Quanxi is canonically Supersonic in base, becomes faster when transformed and Pochita is able to speed blitz her in that state. He can also blitz characters who are capable of perceiving fighters on her level and is generally portrayed as moving so fast that he kills people and destroys objects simply because he can't control his speed or strength.

That said, DMUA brings up a fair point: character speeds are not consistent across every context. Even if Pochita is far beyond baseline Supersonic overall, that does not automatically mean he is moving at that level in every single scene.

In this particular moment, Pochita is visibly far more restrained. There's a noticeable lack of the effort we normally associate with him when he's actually trying or acting on instinct. This is especially important because later in the manga, we repeatedly see Pochita interrupt Yoru's weaponization outright. In contrast, here we have a situation where weapons are able to travel from places like the Gulf of Mexico and Mount Elbrus, complete their weaponization and reach Yoru before Pochita can even touch her.

That difference in portrayal strongly suggests that Pochita is holding back in this scene, or at the very least moving well below his usual combat speed.

Because of that, I made a completely separate calculation that does not rely on scaling from Quanxi or assuming Supersonic chainsaw speed. Instead, I treated Pochita's movement here as Superhuman as a conservative low-end, since we can actually see him moving in the moment, unlike other scenes where he casually kills or destroys things against his will (see the above). This is also a stronger version of Pochita, which further goes to show that this is him not going all out.

If the counter arg is that this entire situation comes down to panel perception or timing ambiguity, that's fine. I'm open to adjusting the endpoint. I'm not trying to push anything above the norm here. If there's a better conservative speed assumption to use for this scene, I'm open to hearing it. The new calc, is also consistent with speeds that Pochita already scales to.

Agree: (0:0)

Disagree: (0:0)

Neutral: (0:0)

i support your recalc using lower speed for pochita, for also the argument that you can see that in the very next panel after the one where pochitas chainsaws are 16cm
far from Yoru´s Face, Yoru can move her Cut arms a bit higher, and her hair start going up, meaning her hair and arms even moved a few centimeters before pochita moved his chainsaws 16cm, and yorus movement speed (and so her hair that would be moving for some reason) is far below Pochita´s as in previous Chapters, Yoru couldn land a single hit on quanxi even with the help of nail fiend

also your ends for the calcs is supposed to be Low Balls because they assume that from the exact moment the chainsaws were 16cm away from yorus face, Gun and Tank Devil were already started to being weaponized and came at full speed to tokyo, even thought Yoru moved her arms and her hair moved up on the next panel that she now started to actually think of turning them into Weapons and started the weaponization, meaning a small gap before they started coming at Yoru´s Hands

i remember Acertainbcplayer making a Gun Goddess recalc where he considered Yorus hair movement, could it be applied to this? it would be easier to calculate Yoru´s arms movement tho

 

[ElJoaki5]

The issue of if stated speeds can be used in calcs this way has been discussed.

Are Stated Speeds/Timeframes For Characters Calc Stacking?

I hold that they are. Despite the Calc Stacking page not explicitly saying anything on this, it does say some things which I think imply it: Using speed of characters or attacks calculated at other instances can't be used, as characters and attacks can vary in speed. This is the case regardless...

vsbattles.com

Basically its fair game unless it is clear that they aren’t actually going at that speed.

I dont think it's clear, your reasoning is half vibes and the other half is Pochita being able to stop the weaponization in other cases. Thing is the speed at which these things are pulled in probably depends, in this case she is pulling stuff from the other side of the world so it makes sense for it to be specially fast. And well, in this case Pochita is actually brutally outsped by it.

And even if I agreed with that. If we consider Pochita was holding back, whats the point of using superhuman speed for him instead?

This kinda just seems like you wanna be able to scale Pochita to the feat. Which I don’t think should be a thing. Since he gets completely outsped by this.

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

Considering that it's fair game, I am more than willing to assume that Pochita is not actually moving at supersonic speeds here and is instead holding back or being sluggish due to the already valid and significant speed gap between him and all his opponents at the time, including Yoru.

I agree with you that it's not clear, which is why I brought up the fact that when Yoru does the same thing later on and Pochita is actually prepared and serious, he is able to stop the weaponification from happening at all. We know it's not a case where the weapon itself differs in speed, because the process of turning the target into a weapon is also FTL. The Gun and Tank Devils transformed into gauntlets before Pochita's chainsaws could even touch her and after they completed their route to Yoru (Based on the fact that Yoru at the time, could only transform things into weapons that we're close enough to her). That shows the weaponification speed is correlated with the summoning speed. It's not a matter of cherry picking because regardless of whether she is pulling things from the other side of the world or not, the speed of the process remains the same.

Take the spear for example. It was already at a great distance away and made its way to Earth without much difficulty, which shows consistency in the weaponification speed process. The fact that Pochita got brutally outsped is also a testament to him holding back, considering that in a serious scenario where Yoru has no reason to hold back her weaponification speed, especially in a scenario where she gets interrupted multiple times, treating the speed as faulty is illogical.

The superhuman end as I said is meant to be conservative to the norm. My intent on scaling is that this Pochita contextually matters, since he is deliberately faster than this process. His initial speed depends entirely on how fast he was moving at the time and considering that he was intercepted, it shows that he likely was not going all out. That is a given.

 

[GunshyFever]

Yoru can move her Cut arms a bit higher, and her hair start going up, meaning her hair and arms even moved a few centimeters before pochita moved his chainsaws 16cm, and yorus movement speed (and so her hair that would be moving for some reason) is far below Pochita´s as in previous Chapters, Yoru couldn land a single hit on quanxi even with the help of nail fiend

Given the fact that she could even do this, is an even bigger testament to why Pochita was definitely not going at full speed, unless you are trying to argue that Pochita and base Quanxi are relative, despite Pochita being blitz tiers above her.

 

[Armorchompy]

If the counter arg is that this entire situation comes down to panel perception or timing ambiguity, that's fine. I'm open to adjusting the endpoint. I'm not trying to push anything above the norm here. If there's a better conservative speed assumption to use for this scene, I'm open to hearing it. The new calc, is also consistent with speeds that Pochita already scales to.

The calc seems ok (I think) but Pochita logically can't scale to it, given it's entirely based on the fact that it blitzed him despite much greater travel distance.

 

[Drite77]

I personally don't really like how we treat speed like in the first Pochita calc, technically it is allowed, but it feels a lot like calc Stacking, it's how Demon Slayer got MHS+ and I personally do not enjoy it. I personally like the superhuman version better since it doesn't inflate calcs that much, but by all means Eljoaki's version is still fair game.

And as a sidenote, is there any reason Pochita would be slowing his movements instead of going at full speed?

 

[GunshyFever]

The notion that he cant scale to it, but he ends up outspeeding the same ability multiple times in the future, is not really up for debate. But that's not what this thread is about.
(Assuming your talking about my re-calc)

 

[Drite77]

The notion that he cant scale to it, but he ends up outspeeding the same ability multiple times in the future, is not really up for debate. But that's not what this thread is about.
(Assuming your talking about my re-calc)

Well, I'm asking why Pochita was moving slower then he would normally be, I'm not talking about scaling

 

[GunshyFever]

And as a sidenote, is there any reason Pochita would be slowing his movements instead of going at full speed?

Everyone he was facing at the time was significantly slower than him, and he could take them out with simple movements. He likely was not expecting Yoru to pull off that attack, which is why he got caught off guard by it.
That also explains why later on he is able to actually stop the attack itself while moving at full speed.

 

[GunshyFever]

Well, I'm asking why Pochita was moving slower then he would normally be, I'm not talking about scaling

That wasn't in response to you, but rather Armor, I thought I quoted him. My mistake.

 

[Drite77]

Everyone he was facing at the time was significantly slower than him, and he could take them out with simple movements. He likely was not expecting Yoru to pull off that attack, which is why he got caught off guard by it.
That also explains why later on he is able to actually stop the attack itself while moving at full speed.

But isn't that woman someone very dangerous? Why would he slow down just because he is much faster then her?

 

[Breadbear83]

But isn't that woman someone very dangerous? Why would he slow down just because he is much faster then her?

he was slowly walking towards Yoru instead of just Speed Blitzing like he does with everyone else, he already speed blitzed her before by cutting her left arm alongside Katana Mans head at the same time, and saw an injured Yoru kneeling before his knees

in terms of speed and strength, at that time, Pochita Saw Yoru as weak and slow because she couldnt do anything to him at that point yet

Pochita would also see that its Asa´s (body), a person who denji liked, so i dont see him just kill her in the fraction of a second like he does to everyone else, not going all out until Yoru became an actual threat

 

[Drite77]

he was slowly walking towards Yoru instead of just Speed Blitzing like he does with everyone else, he already speed blitzed her before by cutting her left arm alongside Katana Mans head at the same time, and saw an injured Yoru kneeling before his knees

Could you link those?

in terms of speed and strength, at that time, Pochita Saw Yoru as weak and slow because she couldnt do anything to him at that point yet

I mean, do you have a source for that? Does Pochita use no effort when someone is weaker and slower then him?

also, after Yoru Hit Pochita with his Bang, and Pochita gets above a building, Yoru call him out on if he knows remembers her, the pain she just did to him, you may even say Pochita didnt know it was the War Devil because at the start he didnt see her turning stuff into Weapons, looking like another human

That requires knowledge about the series I don't have

 

[GunshyFever]

But isn't that woman someone very dangerous? Why would he slow down just because he is much faster then her?

At the time, she wasn't dangerous to him. She was not even comparable to another character that Pochita was able to no diff in an even weaker state.

In the prior chapter (Chapter 175) she and a group of other people attempt to ambush him but fail miserably. He simply throws her aside with his movements while everyone else is dismembered.

 

[Saqphire]

I think the debunk (and the re-calc) assumes the wrong thing. Pochita's movement, whether it was supersonic or average human speed, shouldn't be what's being put in question, but rather if his perception is supersonic or not. First off, it should be because for Quanxi/Pochita to even do their feats, they need to know what's going on so that's that. Although it has been brought to my attention that you can't use any of the timeframes in the Reactions and Perceptions page as those would be calc stacking (seriously, what's the point of that page then? All of those timeframes use 1m/speed for their results)

Second, Pochita has shown cases where characters who are far below him try to attack him from behind and to the sides with utter failure (Yoru + Aging + Katana Man three-way attack) so Pochita is capable of sensing attacks trying to tag him; so the fact that Gun Goddess succeeded would mean it exceeded his perception here. Aging Devil was capable of catching the attack and he's weaker than Pochita so.

in terms of speed and strength, at that time, Pochita Saw Yoru as weak and slow because she couldnt do anything to him at that point yet

This is headcanon. Pochita in his Black form doesn't talk whatsoever and his dog form never mentioned anything about Yoru's strength. Even Denjita never mentioned anything about Yoru's strength being why Pochita "held back".

 

[Breadbear83]

Could you link those?

I mean, do you have a source for that? Does Pochita use no effort when someone is weaker and slower then him?


That requires knowledge about the series I don't have

ignore the last one about the building (as i edited it out), because pochita sometimes is shown to see throught Denjis eyes, he may know yoru or at the very least asa

as gunshyfever, its in chapter 175 where Pochita speedblitz Yoru and Katana Man

about Pochita walking towards Yoru, its still in chapter 175, Yoru lost her other arm, its very injured, Pochita is slowly walking towards her, and she kneels before him, they are all missing their mouths because Pochita erased the Mouth Devil

I think the debunk (and the re-calc) assumes the wrong thing. Pochita's movement, whether it was supersonic or average human speed, shouldn't be what's being put in question, but rather if his perception is supersonic or not. First off, it should be because for Quanxi/Pochita to even do their feats, they need to know what's going on so that's that. Although it has been brought to my attention that you can't use any of the timeframes in the Reactions and Perceptions page as those would be calc stacking (seriously, what's the point of that page then? All of those timeframes use 1m/speed for their results)

Second, Pochita has shown cases where characters who are far below him try to attack him from behind and to the sides with utter failure (Yoru + Aging + Katana Man three-way attack) so Pochita is capable of sensing attacks trying to tag him; so the fact that Gun Goddess succeeded would mean it exceeded his perception here. Aging Devil was capable of catching the attack and he's weaker than Pochita so.

This is headcanon. Pochita in his Black form doesn't talk whatsoever and his dog form never mentioned anything about Yoru's strength. Even Denjita never mentioned anything about Yoru's strength being why Pochita "held back".

well yes, better ´´would have saw´´ instead of affirming as a fact that he saw, but from the context of the scene, first time Pochita Meets the War Devil in years, probably not even recognizing her but rather only Asa (throught Denjis eyes and mind) this first impression to him doesnt let yoru seems like a threat, failling an attack to him, losing an arm and keeling before him while clearly injured, and Pochita just walking towards her instead of being more aggresive like he is with anyone that dares to attack him

 

[Drite77]

Yeahhh, if something needs to be chosen for this, ElJoaki's version prob still makes more sense, as much as I hate that type of usage for the timeframe, so count me for disagree

 

[Breadbear83]

Havent seem anyone talk about me pointing out in my first comment that in the span of Pochita´s Chainsaws being 16cm away of yorus face, she could move her arms a bit higher and her hair going up when she now finally started weaponizing Gun and Tank Devils

if we used Pochita Supersonic baseline speed, Yoru still has to have lower Movement speed than Supersonic because She couldnt even hit base quanxi so even less move as fast as Pochita

so in theory, in this feat, if Pochitas Chainsaws were moving at Supersonic speed, and Yoru moving her arms (and hair) at much slower than Supersonic speed, i could hardly see her moving her arms a few centimeters like she seems to do

the problem in this feat would that realistically for Yoru moving her arms and hair, she needs to move them at at least a similar or higher speed than pochitas chainsaws (probably even a much higher speed because in the panel i shown, Pochitas Chainsaws are not even seen)

so one thing is get the conclusion of Pochitas Arms Speed (what we are discussing) and also Yorus arms speed and the movement of her hair

TLR i believe a calc on Yoru arms and hair speed related to Pochitas Arms movements speed is needed, as Yorus made those movements within the 16cm far away far away that pochitas arm were away

 

[GunshyFever]

Forgive me for being vauge above, I was making myself breakfast and was distracted.

Could you link those?

Here

At this point on it's pretty obvious that this version of Yoru is far more inferior than Pochita and not taken seriously by him. If he really had the urgency to kill her, he would've done something like this

I mean, do you have a source for that? Does Pochita use no effort when someone is weaker and slower then him?

Here's a few:

• Ignoring Katana Man and still ends up dismembering him
• Cuts Reze to pieces with ease (similar to his movement against Yoru)
• Ignoring the whip hybrid

etc...

Yeahhh, if something needs to be chosen for this, ElJoaki's version prob still makes more sense, as much as I hate that type of usage for the timeframe, so count me for disagree

If you consider that Pochita is considerably faster than a supersonic character like Quanxi, whom he takes out while she is transformed and again while he himself is weakened, then it works. He is faster to the point that it is viable that even when he is not going all out, he is still supersonic. Is that premise.

I'll add new votes in a moment.

 

[Drite77]

Well, I'm going to go biking, I'll read the thread when I come back to see if my stance changes, but as of now, I believe there is no holds for the lower timeframe given Pochita would be able to see those coming and accelerate his attack, as much as I dislike the usage of stated timeframes for other characters, I'll request once more to put me in the Disagree section here

 

[Armorchompy]

The notion that he cant scale to it, but he ends up outspeeding the same ability multiple times in the future, is not really up for debate. But that's not what this thread is about.
(Assuming your talking about my re-calc)

It's plenty about that. If you're arguing that he scales back to it then the feat is inconsistent and shouldn't be used for scaling at all.

 

[GunshyFever]

Well, I'm going to go biking, I'll read the thread when I come back to see if my stance changes, but as of now, I believe there is no holds for the lower timeframe given Pochita would be able to see those coming and accelerate his attack, as much as I dislike the usage of stated timeframes for other characters, I'll request once more to put me in the Disagree section here

It is not an attack, but rather a process. The weapons actually severed Pochita's arms on impact. It was really a last second effort in general. Because Pochita was being casual, similar to the examples above, he was caught off guard by this, but later he is able to counter it when serious, it's not something that he could have optionally noticed as you are claiming.

It's plenty about that. If you're arguing that he scales back to it then the feat is inconsistent and shouldn't be used for scaling at all.

It really isn't. The context of the scene is that Yoru is far slower, weaker and more feeble than Pochita, and she is shown to be casually brushed aside by him and not taken seriously. We know that Pochita does not go full speed against all his opponents and this is an example where him moving at casual speeds cost him for underestimating what Yoru would do in the moment. Later, when he is aware, he is able to completely disrupt the process. This is another example of a character being casual and then getting caught off guard.

This is not the first time this has happened in the series. We have characters like Yoshida and Quanxi, who initially fight on equal grounds in hand to hand combat. Quanxi gets bloodied by Yoshida because she does not take him seriously, but once she does, she effortlessly takes him out. This is important because that same Yoshida is blitzed by a Yoru who has not adjusted to her speed and that same Yoru later fights Quanxi in a group and cannot even place a scratch on her.

That is an example of a character holding back and then getting serious after punishment, not inconsistency. There is a clear disparity between the two.

Edit: Also remember that if you are arguing that Pochita got blitzed by this, you are proposing that Quanxi, who is a supersonic character, would be vastly slower than this Yoru. This would be based on her being able to move her arms while Pochita's chainsaw is moments away from her skull, despite Quanxi speed checking Yoru as shown above. This is also despite Yoru currently being blitzed by a character who is many times faster than that same supersonic character. It simply does not make sense.

At the time, she wasn't dangerous to him. She was not even comparable to another character that Pochita was able to no diff in an even weaker state.

In the prior chapter (Chapter 175) she and a group of other people attempt to ambush him but fail miserably. He simply throws her aside with his movements while everyone else is dismembered.

Forgive me for being vauge above, I was making myself breakfast and was distracted.

Here

At this point on it's pretty obvious that this version of Yoru is far more inferior than Pochita and not taken seriously by him. If he really had the urgency to kill her, he would've done something like this

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

That is not what is being measured here. What matters is the speed at which Pochita is swinging his chainsaw arms, which is independently supersonic or, at the very least, conservatively superhuman. This is not a scenario where we are searching for reactions or perceptions, but rather the movement speed of the characters involved. Quanxi in base can move at supersonic speed and Pochita can blitz Quanxi without any effort while she is transformed and in a much more powerful state.

In the case of the Gun Goddess, Pochita was caught off guard. He was anemic, low on blood, missing an arm and preoccupied, which explains that scenario. The attack on Pochita involving the Aging Devil, Yoru and Katana was a showcase of Pochita speed blitzing the majority of his opponents. He has enhanced senses, but there are moments where he is vulnerable and can be caught off guard.

 

[Armorchompy]

It really isn't. The context of the scene is that Yoru is far slower, weaker and more feeble than Pochita, and she is shown to be casually brushed aside by him and not taken seriously. We know that Pochita does not go full speed against all his opponents and this is an example where him moving at casual speeds cost him for underestimating what Yoru would do in the moment. Later, when he is aware, he is able to completely disrupt the process. This is another example of a character being casual and then getting caught off guard.

Pochita would've had literally all the time in the world to see the object approaching him from the horizon. He can be moving slower for whatever reason but his perception speed isn't going to change. Unless he just willingly sat there and took the hit there's no possible excuse for him not dodging.

This is not the first time this has happened in the series. We have characters like Yoshida and Quanxi, who initially fight on equal grounds in hand to hand combat. Quanxi gets bloodied by Yoshida because she does not take him seriously, but once she does, she effortlessly takes him out. This is important because that same Yoshida is blitzed by a Yoru who has not adjusted to her speed and that same Yoru later fights Quanxi in a group and cannot even place a scratch on her.

An inconsistency being reoccurring isn't implication that it's a consistent verse mechanic. It just means the verse is consistently inconsistent.

Edit: Also remember that if you are arguing that Pochita got blitzed by this, you are proposing that Quanxi, who is a supersonic character, would be vastly slower than this Yoru. This would be based on her being able to move her arms while Pochita's chainsaw is moments away from her skull, despite Quanxi speed checking Yoru as shown above. This is also despite Yoru currently being blitzed by a character who is many times faster than that same supersonic character. It simply does not make sense.

Obviously Yoru's combat speed wouldn't scale either. This is at best an attack speed feat and at worst just an inconsistent calculation to be disregarded entirely.

 

[Kachon123]

I think it’s quite outlandish to claim that a character who can’t even move 0.15993214285 meters before another traverses 7809.5 kilometers was simply "holding back" to that extent. That level of suspension of disbelief isn’t solid enough to make this a usable feat for scaling in my opinion.

 

[Breadbear83]

I think it’s quite outlandish to claim that a character who can’t even move 0.15993214285 meters before another traverses 7809.5 kilometers was simply "holding back" to that extent. That level of suspension of disbelief isn’t solid enough to make this a usable feat for scaling in my opinion.

Pochita baseline Super Sonic from the original calc is used from chainscaling of Base Quanxi being stated to be faster than sound (Massively Hypersonic Pochita is not used because it would be calc stacking from the calcs that put him there)

same base quanxi, who Yoru ,a few chapters ago even with the help of the Nail Fiend, couldnt land a single hit on her, meaning that Yoru is slower than that quanxi that is said to be faster than sound

so Yoru, in combat/movement speed is transonic at best, while Pochita upscales from an already supersonic character

yet, Yoru can move her cut arms, and her hair move up, in the time that Pochita is 16cm away to hit her

if Pochita wasnt holding back, thereforebeing much faster in combat/movement speed to Yoru in that moment, then besides the Fact that Yoru wouldnt be able to move her cut arms or her hair going up, she also wouldnt have so much time to overthink if she should transform Gun and Tank Devil into weapons (as there were even ´...´´ in her dialogues, which is used when a character makes a short pause in his dialogue)

all of this would either mean for the Superhuman Pochita recalc ´´pochita was holding back so much that Yoru seemed faster than him in reaction/movement speed to the point of she thinking for a while midattack, even move her arms at similar speed ETC´´ or for the super Sonic calc: ´´Yoru somehow had insane Reaction speed there, far above than quanxi and Pochita who blitzed her before´´

both arent perfect arguments but its more likely of Pochita Holding back to a seeminly absurd point than Yoru Having a massively Higher Reaction speed than normal, to such point that her reaction speed in this Feat could be called an outlier

 

[GunshyFever]

I'm sorry, but simply because you believe it doesn't make any sense doesn't mean there is no logic behind it. This is a manga series, and the author is trying to make a clear distinction and push a narrative to advance the story.

Pochita would've had literally all the time in the world to see the object approaching him from the horizon. He can be moving slower for whatever reason but his perception speed isn't going to change. Unless he just willingly sat there and took the hit there's no possible excuse for him not dodging.

That is assuming he is massively faster than the object itself, which he is not shown to be. He is clearly focusing on eliminating Yoru and the argument is that he is not moving at top speed in this scenario. He was caught off guard briefly, and the author shows what he is capable of when he is on guard in the same sense, it's not that hard to interpret.

An inconsistency being reoccurring isn't implication that it's a consistent verse mechanic. It just means the verse is consistently inconsistent.

I'm sorry, how is that an inconsistency when there is logic and reasoning to be considered and it has been displayed to you? What happened to trying to make sense of and distinguish feats? Are we really just going to slap an inconsistency label on something when we do not understand or know how to interpret the medium? I am sure we are better than that.

Obviously Yoru's combat speed wouldn't scale either. This is at best an attack speed feat and at worst just an inconsistent calculation to be disregarded entirely.

By speed logic, Yoru is making short movements, which we already accept on our speed page as reaction speed sections. If Yoru cannot even use that short movement to dodge someone who is many times slower than the character in front of her, then your reasoning is illogical. It would be best to look toward the fact that Pochita is not moving at his full speed.

I think it’s quite outlandish to claim that a character who can’t even move 0.15993214285 meters before another traverses 7809.5 kilometers was simply "holding back" to that extent. That level of suspension of disbelief isn’t solid enough to make this a usable feat for scaling in my opinion.

That's not a good argument at all. That would simply mean the object massively blitzed Pochita because he was not initially moving fast enough. Those numbers seem bad because of how far apart they are, but this is fiction. The gaps and jumps are bound to be large and you cannot look at this on the same spectrum as reality in certain scenarios.

 

[Kachon123]

The argument that it's fiction and so something that doesn't make sense can be overlooked or deemed passable doesn't hold up. The calc demands that the object was moving 50 million times faster than Pochita was in that instant. Pochita wasn't simply "not moving fast enough", he was operating at speeds so far below his peak that the disparity is comparable to the difference between the slowest known object in the universe and the speed of a lightning bolt.

Nobody is claiming that the feat isn't real and doesn't exist. The problem arises when folks try to justify the scene's logic and apply it to scaling.

 

[GunshyFever]

The argument that it's fiction and so something that doesn't make sense can be overlooked or deemed passable doesn't hold up. The calc demands that the object was moving 50 million times faster than Pochita was in that instant. Pochita wasn't simply "not moving fast enough", he was operating at speeds so far below his peak that the disparity is comparable to the difference between the slowest known object in the universe and the speed of a lightning bolt.

Nobody is claiming that the feat isn't real and doesn't exist. The problem arises when folks try to justify the scene's logic and apply it to scaling.

I don't blame you for thinking that gap was that large and if I were in your shoes, I would agree with you too. Most of CSM's current profile speed scaling is in the dumps right now, but a CRT has been in the works for years and the evaluation of calcs and things like that has been relatively slow. As soon as the recent arc in the manga ends, I will push the CRT. To answer your concerns, Pochita would currently be 1.25c with feats, and this feat is only about 2x faster than him.

To further support consistency, he massively scales above 1.25c, considering Denji Man (which is Pochita's body with Denji's brain) was able to dodge a 1.25c accelerating spear that was constantly homing in on him without much difficulty. He was actually dancing around it until it wore him out or he was left vulnerable and distracted.

Now it doesn't seem as bad to say that Pochita was simply moving about 2x slower than he usually does while being caught off guard by an attack. Not only is that not a big jump, but things like this happen in fiction all the time, which is primarily what I am emphasizing here. This is also why it is best not to use the supersonic end, because it makes far less sense in the context of the actual manga, what happens in the scene, how the author uses the feat and how Pochita reacts to it later on. Everything links back together, you just have to snatch it.

 

[Kachon123]

The specific values of calcs are largely irrelevant to the point I’m making. The issue is the disparity in distance traveled. Regardless of how fast Pochita was moving, the fact that he couldn’t cover even a few centimeters before Yoru’s weaponization traversed a distance comparable to the width of the continental United States is a serious problem. What I'm trying to point out is that in this context, Pochita is functionally stationary relative to the attack. There's no world where somebody can be holding back to that extent. It simply does not work.

 

[GunshyFever]

And hence, that loops right back to my point that within fictional spaces, logic works differently. Just because the weapon has significant travel speed when moving from America to Japan does not mean Pochita is as slow as you make it seem. It is simply a difference between travel speed and combat speed, which is another example of how speed is used differently in fiction. If it were combat speed and Yoru was moving that fast, you would have gotten the same result. You cannot use the logic of travel speed = combat speed.

It is that fast because the feat itself is FTL in terms of travel, while Pochita is a lower FTL over far shorter movements while also holding back his speed by about 2x. The projectile traveling 2x faster than Pochita is naturally going to intercept him before he even gets the chance to react, because it can cross extreme distances within short periods of time. Of course, Pochita would have been parried rather than outright statued by that due to it moving and traveling a greater distance and faster than him.

But to make you all more comfortable, I will pull something on the side for you to think about.

Considering I am repeating myself a lot, it is best I bring up a very important point on every Chainsaw Man profile so we can make more sense of this:

Varies (As the devil embodying the fear of chainsaws, the more feared he is, the more powerful he becomes, even a relatively minor boost in fear can immensely boost a devil's overall strength and effects of their abilities)
"An organization which successfully gathered over 350,000 members across multiple nations. This sham church was in reality a method for the Fire Devil, incognito as the "Justice Devil" to gain as many contractors as possible who would be transformed into hundreds of thousands of Chainsaw Man-like devils, thereby inspiring fear of both Chainsaw Man and War, all in order to empower Chainsaw Man and the War Devil so that they can be made capable of defeating the Death Devil."

It's noted that around this time and going into the future, the Fake Chainsaw Man agenda was created to make him strong enough to face the Death Devil. That alone caused him to grow in power and it would not be a stretch to say that, considering this is much later on, Pochita grew significantly stronger. Hence, he was able to intercept this attack.

I don't really think it is necessary to bring this up, but it is factual, so I will mention it as evidence to sway the majority. I cannot stress enough that this is not a feat you can simply throw away, considering the general thematic weight behind it. Therefore, sense must be made of it. I am proposing that the 2x difference is enough for the attack to not statue but parry Pochita in that moment. He is also not holding back to the great extent you claim, as it is really only a 2x difference, as I have consistently stated.

 

[GunshyFever]

I thought I would give an example for my explanation above.

Assume Character X launches a projectile with FTL travel speed. Character Y has FTL combat speed, but:

• The projectile itself is about 2x faster than Y
• Y is operating at about 2x below peak speed and is holding back

Now X's projectile crosses about 7800 km, while Y only attempts to move about 0.16 m before interception.

You are framing this as "outlandish" because Y appears functionally stationary relative to the attack. But in this setup, that outcome is exactly what you would expect. The projectile has higher raw velocity and essentially zero startup over extreme distance, while Y is both slower relative to the projectile and not moving at full speed.

That does not require Y to be statued. It only requires:

1. The projectile being faster
2. Y holding back by a modest factor
3. The feat occurring in a travel speed context

At that point, covering thousands of kilometers before Y can meaningfully reposition a fraction of a meter becomes completely natural.

This is also why I keep stressing travel speed vs combat speed.

You are treating the disparity in distance as proof that Y's speed "collapses", but distance traveled alone does not determine reaction or combat speed, especially in fictional scenarios where a projectile can cross intercontinental distances 2x faster than a character who can make short movements at FTL speeds. A projectile crossing continental distances uninterrupted is fundamentally different from two characters exchanging blows at close range.

If travel speed automatically equaled combat speed, then Yoru herself would have to operate at that same level in that situation and parry Pochita's chainsaws up close, which would result in her parrying him regardless.

So when you say Pochita is functionally stationary, that is only true relative to a faster projectile in a travel scenario. That does not translate into his combat speed being invalid.

In short, this does not demonstrate that Pochita is slow compared to Yoru's weaponization. BUT demonstrates that the projectile has higher raw travel velocity in that moment. Those are not the same thing. Unless we are prepared to treat every extreme distance projectile feat as universal combat speed scaling (which would break consistency across the wiki) the only coherent interpretation here is faster travel speed + context and combat speed.

 

[Saqphire]

That is not what is being measured here. What matters is the speed at which Pochita is swinging his chainsaw arms, which is independently supersonic or, at the very least, conservatively superhuman. This is not a scenario where we are searching for reactions or perceptions, but rather the movement speed of the characters involved. Quanxi in base can move at supersonic speed and Pochita can blitz Quanxi without any effort while she is transformed and in a much more powerful state.

Ah right, I must've completely lost track. Yeah in that case I completely agree with the CGMs here (and thus disagree with DMUA/the re-calc) because stated movement speeds are fine.

In the case of the Gun Goddess, Pochita was caught off guard. He was anemic, low on blood, missing an arm and preoccupied, which explains that scenario. The attack on Pochita involving the Aging Devil, Yoru and Katana was a showcase of Pochita speed blitzing the majority of his opponents. He has enhanced senses, but there are moments where he is vulnerable and can be caught off guard.

Would that nerf Pochita to below nerfed Denji levels tho? Because a nerfed Denji was stalemating with Quanxi (while he was even more nerfed due to damage). We know when Pochita is really down-bad, he regresses in forms and at that point, he didn't regress to Red or his Dog form at the time.

I don't blame you for thinking that gap was that large and if I were in your shoes, I would agree with you too. Most of CSM's current profile speed scaling is in the dumps right now, but a CRT has been in the works for years and the evaluation of calcs and things like that has been relatively slow. As soon as the recent arc in the manga ends, I will push the CRT. To answer your concerns, Pochita would currently be 1.25c with feats, and this feat is only about 2x faster than him.

To further support consistency, he massively scales above 1.25c, considering Denji Man (which is Pochita's body with Denji's brain) was able to dodge a 1.25c accelerating spear that was constantly homing in on him without much difficulty. He was actually dancing around it until it wore him out or he was left vulnerable and distracted.

Now it doesn't seem as bad to say that Pochita was simply moving about 2x slower than he usually does while being caught off guard by an attack. Not only is that not a big jump, but things like this happen in fiction all the time, which is primarily what I am emphasizing here. This is also why it is best not to use the supersonic end, because it makes far less sense in the context of the actual manga, what happens in the scene, how the author uses the feat and how Pochita reacts to it later on. Everything links back together, you just have to snatch it.

I believe this is just fallacious reasoning though. Using a lowballed speed for Pochita in the Gun Goddess calculation to make it's speed faster than light while at the same time asserting that "he's FTL tho" is just trying to have both slices of the cake. You can't concede on Pochita being Superhuman for that one instance while at the same time concretely scale him to FTL, the disparity is way too much here for it to even be remotely believable. Either Pochita is faster than light and the Gun Goddess/Flag Pole is actually wayyyy into MFTL+ (which is calc stacking + circular scaling so no go), or the cast doesn't scale to FTL other than with attack speed.

And also, the 1.25c calc isn't even a Pochita feat, that's another Yoru attack speed feat. Pochita should not scale to either the Gun Goddess or the flagpole as he's literally the target being outdone in distance and speed as Kachon is saying.

 

[Dalesean027]

The calc itself is fine since its going by character's canonical speeds given statements and not just calculations but yeah I'm with armor and Saqphire here, pochita shouldn't scale to it

 

[GunshyFever]

Would that nerf Pochita to below nerfed Denji levels tho? Because a nerfed Denji was stalemating with Quanxi (while he was even more nerfed due to damage). We know when Pochita is really down-bad, he regresses in forms and at that point, he didn't regress to Red or his Dog form at the time.

No, Pochita can be severly weakened in multiple factors without regressing to his puppy form, it's also likely a choice considering that he only changed his form in order to avoid the hunt from the four horsemen and considering we see him take alot of damage and still not regress leaves it to the obvious that it is more likely a choice than anything.

I believe this is just fallacious reasoning though. Using a lowballed speed for Pochita in the Gun Goddess calculation to make it's speed faster than light while at the same time asserting that "he's FTL tho" is just trying to have both slices of the cake. You can't concede on Pochita being Superhuman for that one instance while at the same time concretely scale him to FTL, the disparity is way too much here for it to even be remotely believable. Either Pochita is faster than light and the Gun Goddess/Flag Pole is actually wayyyy into MFTL+ (which is calc stacking + circular scaling so no go), or the cast doesn't scale to FTL other than with attack speed.

And also, the 1.25c calc isn't even a Pochita feat, that's another Yoru attack speed feat. Pochita should not scale to either the Gun Goddess or the flagpole as he's literally the target being outdone in distance and speed as Kachon is saying.

I don't think you understand the disparity of what is being discussed here, nor how it works. Other than that Kachon stated that it wasn't his point, hence why I decided to discuss in other means of literal interpretation. Best not to start up something which has no discussing value.

 

[GunshyFever]

The calc itself is fine since its going by character's canonical speeds given statements and not just calculations but yeah I'm with armor and Saqphire here, pochita shouldn't scale to it

That's the issue we are dealing with. Pochita scales to it in the future and interrupts it twice as seen in the OP. We (practically only me) are trying to interpret a way of understanding the feat within the story due to how Pochita is able to react to it later on. I make a few reasonable assumptions, but it does not seem to be garnering any attention.

I do not have a hand to force, so if it is the general consensus to ignore the feat and the scaling around it, I will oblige. Just remember that it causes serious problems and can be reasoned. See these for reference.

And hence, that loops right back to my point that within fictional spaces, logic works differently. Just because the weapon has significant travel speed when moving from America to Japan does not mean Pochita is as slow as you make it seem. It is simply a difference between travel speed and combat speed, which is another example of how speed is used differently in fiction. If it were combat speed and Yoru was moving that fast, you would have gotten the same result. You cannot use the logic of travel speed = combat speed.

It is that fast because the feat itself is FTL in terms of travel, while Pochita is a lower FTL over far shorter movements while also holding back his speed by about 2x. The projectile traveling 2x faster than Pochita is naturally going to intercept him before he even gets the chance to react, because it can cross extreme distances within short periods of time. Of course, Pochita would have been parried rather than outright statued by that due to it moving and traveling a greater distance and faster than him.

But to make you all more comfortable, I will pull something on the side for you to think about.

Considering I am repeating myself a lot, it is best I bring up a very important point on every Chainsaw Man profile so we can make more sense of this:

It's noted that around this time and going into the future, the Fake Chainsaw Man agenda was created to make him strong enough to face the Death Devil. That alone caused him to grow in power and it would not be a stretch to say that, considering this is much later on, Pochita grew significantly stronger. Hence, he was able to intercept this attack.

I don't really think it is necessary to bring this up, but it is factual, so I will mention it as evidence to sway the majority. I cannot stress enough that this is not a feat you can simply throw away, considering the general thematic weight behind it. Therefore, sense must be made of it. I am proposing that the 2x difference is enough for the attack to not statue but parry Pochita in that moment. He is also not holding back to the great extent you claim, as it is really only a 2x difference, as I have consistently stated.

I thought I would give an example for my explanation above.

Assume Character X launches a projectile with FTL travel speed. Character Y has FTL combat speed, but:

• The projectile itself is about 2x faster than Y
• Y is operating at about 2x below peak speed and is holding back

Now X's projectile crosses about 7800 km, while Y only attempts to move about 0.16 m before interception.

You are framing this as "outlandish" because Y appears functionally stationary relative to the attack. But in this setup, that outcome is exactly what you would expect. The projectile has higher raw velocity and essentially zero startup over extreme distance, while Y is both slower relative to the projectile and not moving at full speed.

That does not require Y to be statued. It only requires:

1. The projectile being faster
2. Y holding back by a modest factor
3. The feat occurring in a travel speed context

At that point, covering thousands of kilometers before Y can meaningfully reposition a fraction of a meter becomes completely natural.

This is also why I keep stressing travel speed vs combat speed.

You are treating the disparity in distance as proof that Y's speed "collapses", but distance traveled alone does not determine reaction or combat speed, especially in fictional scenarios where a projectile can cross intercontinental distances 2x faster than a character who can make short movements at FTL speeds. A projectile crossing continental distances uninterrupted is fundamentally different from two characters exchanging blows at close range.

If travel speed automatically equaled combat speed, then Yoru herself would have to operate at that same level in that situation and parry Pochita's chainsaws up close, which would result in her parrying him regardless.

So when you say Pochita is functionally stationary, that is only true relative to a faster projectile in a travel scenario. That does not translate into his combat speed being invalid.

In short, this does not demonstrate that Pochita is slow compared to Yoru's weaponization. BUT demonstrates that the projectile has higher raw travel velocity in that moment. Those are not the same thing. Unless we are prepared to treat every extreme distance projectile feat as universal combat speed scaling (which would break consistency across the wiki) the only coherent interpretation here is faster travel speed + context and combat speed.

 

[Dalesean027]

That's the issue we are dealing with. Pochita scales to it in the future and interrupts it twice as seen in the OP. We (practically only me) are trying to interpret a way of understanding the feat within the story due to how Pochita is able to react to it later on. I make a few reasonable assumptions, but it does not seem to be garnering any attention.

Post those scans, if he shows he can replicate reacting to it later on several times then I don't see why a "possibly at most FTL+" doesn't work

 

[GunshyFever]

Post those scans, if he shows he can replicate reacting to it later on several times then I don't see why a "possibly at most FTL+" doesn't work

We had a scuffle about that, but sure.

This is especially important because later in the manga, we repeatedly see Pochita interrupt Yoru's weaponization outright.

 

[Machmatej]

I personally don't really like how we treat speed like in the first Pochita calc, technically it is allowed, but it feels a lot like calc Stacking, it's how Demon Slayer got MHS+ and I personally do not enjoy it.

i don't want to derail the thread, but that's not how demon slayer got MHS+