Giselle Gewelle Downgrade

[Apollonir.Scale]

This should be clear enough. In CFYOW, it was stated that Giselle couldn't turn Captain-level power-possessed individuals into zombies. If you ask how she could turn Kensei and Rojuro into zombies, it's because they were already severely injured and killed by Mask de Masculine. Even if Toshiro didn't die, he was severely wounded by Bazz B. He was almost dead.

We know from a conversation between Rukia and Byakuya that the Gotei 13 Shinigami ranks are related to power. So, since Captain-level characters are at least 6-B, we can say Giselle is below 6-B. She herself states that she's not very good at "combat ability."

Giselle is probably weaker than Zombie Bambietta, and Zombie Bambietta takes damage from Shikai Ikkaku and Shikai Yumichika. I don't think Ikkaku is significantly stronger than before, given that his zanpaktou was damaged in the fight with Edrard. Especially considering the databook states that both Ikkaku and Yumichika are lieutenant-level, and Kubo mentioned in a Q&A that Yumichika and Ikkaku are equal.

The novel also depicts Zombie Bambietta losing to Rudbornn, and it's stated in the same novel that Rudbornn is weaker than Tres Bestias and Espada.

Some might argue that all Sternritters are captain-level based on this statement from the anime. But that doesn't apply to everyone. Giselle might be an exception, and the fact that she herself ranks herself below captain level is more consistent with the general information given in the anime.

Edit: A few more things that contradict the profile statement with the "feats":

Bambietta~~>Komamura>Shinji>Halibel>Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro=Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro>>>>Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Giselle

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Zombie Bambietta

Zombie Bambietta>Giselle

Iba considers Komamura's Bankai stronger than Ikkaku's. Ikkaku's Bankai was damaged in his fight with Edrard, so he never used it again. Since the Edrard fight, there is no evidence to suggest that Shikai Ikkaku has become strong enough to surpass Komamura. Conversely, the fact that he lost to Zombie Toshiro without being able to do anything confirms that Shikai Ikkaku isn't at that level due to the Komamura > Shinji > Halibel > Kid Toshiro scaling chain.

Even in CFYOW, Base Liltotto tries to stay as far away from Base Halibel's water as possible, knowing he shouldn't let his guard down against Halibel. Giselle stays even further away from Liltotto.

Base Halibel > Base Liltotto > Base Giselle

It's also stated that they have gathered their powers. They have everything except Volstandig.

My suggestion is to rank her as "Unknown."

Also, Giselle's LS scaling is flawed. She doesn't have better LS than Meninas. Since she's also featless in terms of LS, we should lower her LS rating to Unknown.

 

[Thermor]

What about just human level for rank and LS? I think we only give unknown ratings to characters with HDE.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

First, TYBW AP. Based on the translation of the video, I disagree with the idea that Giselle doesn't have the combat capability of a Captain. Unless raws says something different, to me, she is talking about her actual ability not being something that works in a similar manner to the Power and the Glutton, that being killing with the power. And we do see her tactic is to control them, then kill as opposed to just kill. Still, that is just my interpretation, so it's understandable if that doesn't make sense. Second, she was stated to have better combat capabilities while using Blut to fight compared to alive Bambi in Klub Outside (currently on her profile). This would mean Bambi is weaker than a Captain, which contradict the anime and manga with her fight against Sajin in the first invasion. Third, and perhaps most important, this is a quote from Giselle after she lost a decent chunk of power from Yhwach's vacuum. I see no reason why this has to be applied to her TYBW key, especially since we have no idea how much weaker she got. Fourth, and maybe this doesn't matter, but I don't see how her ability to not turn someone because they have Captain level power means she's weaker, as it could be a limitation of her ability like how she can't use it on Quincies. Maybe her ability requires the opponent to be weakened first? This last point is more guesswork than substantial proof though, so you can ignore it. But we do have examples in universe such as Kido that is hard to break from one side but extremely easy from another, but again, speculation.

Second, LS. I have no opinions on anything involving LS and Speed rn, so whatever

Third, CFYOW Giselle. These keys are terrible rn, but for that matter, I could easily see CFYOW Giselle having an Unknown rating due to her power loss.

 

[Lynieryz]

Even without Blut, it's stated that Giselle is physically stronger than Bambietta.

Q525.​

2023.10.09

Is the hierarchy of strength for the Bambies: Liltotto > Giselle > Meninas > Bambi > Candice?

A525.​

If they engage in battle with Blut, then that’s probably the order. If it’s a bare-handed fight then it’s: Liltotto → Meninas → Candice → Gigi → Bambi.

This would make Komamura a captain who isn't captain-level. It would also destroy the idea that being a captain makes you captain-level, so all scaling would have to be redone analyzing which captains qualify for captain-level.

[Disagree FRA ]

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yea I dont quite understand destroying her AP in general to unknown when its clearly a limitation of her ability.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Isn't that just what downscaling is

we can say Giselle is below 6-B.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Disagree fra as 3 others have pointed out
We have no mentions of how weak Giselle has gotten in CFYOW. So throwing CFYOW on TYBW key doesn't make much sense... When they are two separate keys and two different settings and times have taken place

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

First, TYBW AP. Based on the translation of the video, I disagree with the idea that Giselle doesn't have the combat capability of a Captain. Unless raws says something different, to me, she is talking about her actual ability not being something that works in a similar manner to the Power and the Glutton, that being killing with the power. And we do see her tactic is to control them, then kill as opposed to just kill. Still, that is just my interpretation, so it's understandable if that doesn't make sense. Second, she was stated to have better combat capabilities while using Blut to fight compared to alive Bambi in Klub Outside (currently on her profile). This would mean Bambi is weaker than a Captain, which contradict the anime and manga with her fight against Sajin in the first invasion. Third, and perhaps most important, this is a quote from Giselle after she lost a decent chunk of power from Yhwach's vacuum. I see no reason why this has to be applied to her TYBW key, especially since we have no idea how much weaker she got. Fourth, and maybe this doesn't matter, but I don't see how her ability to not turn someone because they have Captain level power means she's weaker, as it could be a limitation of her ability like how she can't use it on Quincies. Maybe her ability requires the opponent to be weakened first? This last point is more guesswork than substantial proof though, so you can ignore it. But we do have examples in universe such as Kido that is hard to break from one side but extremely easy from another, but again, speculation.

Bambietta possesses Dura Neg. She can damage Komamura with Dura Neg.

Also, I believe there was a rule on this wiki prohibiting asking authors about power scaling. I thought character ordering wasn't included, but in this CRT, even a question about the ordering of characters like Highbeerd, Vilgax, and Darkstar was considered "asking the author about power scaling."

More importantly, how do we know that the Bambietta mentioned in this statement is the living Bambietta?

I don't understand why the CFYOW form is considered weaker than the TYBW form. Didn't Yhwach only take Volstandig and Sklaverei from her? Candice and Meninas, who turned into zombies, were weaker than their Base forms in their living forms. I don't think the same applies to Giselle.

but I don't see how her ability to not turn someone because they have Captain level power means she's weaker, as it could be a limitation of her ability like how she can't use it on Quincies.

Yea I dont quite understand destroying her AP in general to unknown when its clearly a limitation of her ability.

In Bleach, you can nullify abilities with your Power level. This is also considered Limited Power Nullification in the wiki.

Aizen not being affected by Soi Fon's shikai ability

Cien being strong enough not to be affected by Baraggan's respira

Ikomikidomoe being able to break Ichibei's name seal after eating Soul King fragments

So, Giselle's ability not affecting those with Captain-level power shows that her Hax is limited by her own AP. If it were said that it doesn't affect those with Quincy blood, like with Quilge, I would say that this is a special limitation, not AP. But being Captain-level doesn't grant Hax resistance; this is clearly overcoming it with power.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Bambietta possesses Dura Neg. She can damage Komamura with Dura Neg.

Bambietta has to have power equal to Komamura's Bankai in order to steal it, as that is how Bankai medallions work. She also matched Komamura with her sword, not just her explosives.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Bambietta has to have power equal to Komamura's Bankai in order to steal it, as that is how Bankai medallions work. She also matched Komamura with her sword, not just her explosives.

I understand.

But when the character sees himself as below the captain's level, which contradicts the author's view of him as far superior to the character's own perception, should the author's statement carry more weight?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Also, isn't this Bambi ranking scan for h2h? Kubo's use of stegoro terms seems to refer to h2h.

Furthermore, since feat is considered a statement, and the character explicitly states that she couldn't turn into a zombie at captain level, and that she tried and failed, I think it would be more consistent than the author's statement. Even if Bambietta scaled Komamura, I wouldn't say Giselle should scale as well.

And I remembered something later. In the novel, it was Zombie Bambietta who dealt damage to Hikone. Giselle, as stated in the CRT scan, couldn't do anything either.

Even Zombie Bambietta took damage from Shikai Ikkaku and was defeated by Rudbornn, which also reduces Giselle's scaling.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Bambietta has to have power equal to Komamura's Bankai in order to steal it

Apologies if this is derailing, but can you get me the scan/chapter number for this?

 

[ItsMeat]

Op, cfyow is the same place where it's stated she could turn ichigo into one of her zombies…
And it’s just as @Lynieryz said, she isn't even the weakest of the bambies and with blut she’s the second strongest(although I'm a bit skeptical on anyone below zaraki being stronger than meninas raw ap wise)

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Op, cfyow is the same place where it's stated she could turn ichigo into one of her zombies…

This is a very vague statement. They're planning to turn Ichigo into a zombie by catching him off guard. Otherwise, they couldn't overcome his dura. Besides, the statement doesn't say they'll turn Ichigo into a zombie. It says Ichigo would be the strongest shinigami to be turned into a zombie. And that would be when his power wanes, like Rojuro, Kensei, and Toshiro, as I explained in CRT.

The fact that the Statement and True Shikai couldn't turn Base Hikone, who is much weaker than Ichigo, into a zombie shows that they couldn't turn Ichigo into a zombie in a fair fight either. As I said, their plan is to turn Ichigo into a zombie when he's not in combat and not using his reiatsu. We also see Liltotto stating that after Giselle suggested this idea, they were too weak to fight those protecting Ichigo.

Edit: It wasn't Giselle, it was Liltotto who considered turning Ichigo into a zombie. Liltotto might have overestimated Giselle's abilities by using NLF.

 

[SacredDao]

Disagree FRA. There are enough showings to prove she ranks similar to captain level. and that statement more tells us that it's the limitation of her ability.

so yes clearly sprinkle of blood ain't gonna cut it for captain class.

 

[ItsMeat]

This is a very vague statement. They're planning to turn Ichigo into a zombie by catching him off guard. Otherwise, they couldn't overcome his dura. Besides, the statement doesn't say they'll turn Ichigo into a zombie. It says Ichigo would be the strongest shinigami to be turned into a zombie. And that would be when his power wanes, like Rojuro, Kensei, and Toshiro, as I explained in CRT.

The fact that the Statement and True Shikai couldn't turn Base Hikone, who is much weaker than Ichigo, into a zombie shows that they couldn't turn Ichigo into a zombie in a fair fight either. As I said, their plan is to turn Ichigo into a zombie when he's not in combat and not using his reiatsu. We also see Liltotto stating that after Giselle suggested this idea, they were too weak to fight those protecting Ichigo.

Edit: It wasn't Giselle, it was Liltotto who considered turning Ichigo into a zombie. Liltotto might have overestimated Giselle's abilities by using NLF.

The official translation is different



It clearly says she can do it but it’s not wise to try it because of the amount of strong people constantly being around ichigo

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

It clearly says she can do it but it’s not wise to try it because of the amount of strong people constantly being around ichigo

It's nice, but as I said, since they can't turn him into a zombie in a potential confrontation, they try to transform Ichigo into his non-combatant form. The fact that they mention there are people who will protect Ichigo also proves this.

 

[ItsMeat]

It's nice, but as I said, since they can't turn him into a zombie in a potential confrontation, they try to transform Ichigo into his non-combatant form. The fact that they mention there are people who will protect Ichigo also proves this.

Ok, yeah, I didn’t read the rest of the things you said. I will answer them now:

First, how weak do you think human ichigo is? Even before the events of tybw, he's able to casually do this



To someone who can clash with his shikai form and even survive a getsuga tensho from his bankai form with just some burns



Although he doesn't have a zanpakto, human ichigo isn't much weaker than his shinigami form

Further, for the hikone thing, it's as @SacredDao said, the more powerful they are, the more blood it takes Giselle to zombify them. Not that they can't.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Apologies if this is derailing, but can you get me the scan/chapter number for this?

For the Bankai Medallions, it's TYBW episode 6, after Yamamoto beats Royd. For Bambietta vs Komamura, it's TYBW episode 4, after Byakuya fails to kill As Nodt.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ok, yeah, I didn’t read the rest of the things you said. I will answer them now:

First, how weak do you think human ichigo is? Even before the events of tybw, he's able to casually do this



To someone who can clash with his shikai form and even survive a getsuga tensho from his bankai form with just some burns



Although he doesn't have a zanpakto, human ichigo isn't much weaker than his shinigami form

Further, for the hikone thing, it's as @SacredDao said, the more powerful they are, the more blood it takes Giselle to zombify them. Not that they can't.

Ebern was just talking there. He wasn't expecting Ichigo to throw a flying kick at him. I think that was off-guard.

Also, I suspect Giselle and Liltotto would try to turn him into a zombie while he was sleeping or something. I mean, they'd probably do that to an off-guard human Ichigo.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Bambietta possesses Dura Neg. She can damage Komamura with Dura Neg.

Also, I believe there was a rule on this wiki prohibiting asking authors about power scaling. I thought character ordering wasn't included, but in this CRT, even a question about the ordering of characters like Highbeerd, Vilgax, and Darkstar was considered "asking the author about power scaling."

There's a difference between a power scaler question and just asking for a general power ranking. The latter is something that is typical for a shonen consumer to ask since this type of shonen is literally about battling and people being stronger than the other.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

There's a difference between a power scaler question and just asking for a general power ranking. The latter is something that is typical for a shonen consumer to ask since this type of shonen is literally about battling and people being stronger than the other.

Ben 10 is just completely different circumstances since power scalers are actually verifiably asking and spamming these questions.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There's a difference between a power scaler question and just asking for a general power ranking. The latter is something that is typical for a shonen consumer to ask since this type of shonen is literally about battling and people being stronger than the other.

While there is a difference, the difference is very small. Asking the author how strong the Bambi's are in relation to each other and the author gives their answer isn't a leading question, but proposing a list yourself that the author corrects or edits leads into disallowed power scaling question territory.

It's like the difference between asking "How much power does Royd/Loyd copy?" and "Does Royd/Loyd copy 50% of the target's power?"

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I found a statement suggesting that Liltotto and Giselle were able to regain their powers, except for losing their Volstanding.

Even Zombie Bambietta can damage Base Hikone, while Giselle can't do anything significant.

Chulhornn > Zombie Bambietta > Giselle

 

[Lynieryz]

Even Zombie Bambietta can damage Base Hikone, while Giselle can't do anything significant.

Irrelevant, this was through transmutation.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Here's what I think about Kubo's ranking:

He said "probably" for the Blut ranking. He's not saying a different ranking is absolutely impossible.

Stegoro uses terms like h2h, and Bambietta doesn't prefer h2h. She either uses swords or long-range explosives. Being better at h2h than someone doesn't necessarily mean you have enough AP to overcome their dura. It might just mean you're fighting better.

We also saw Giselle struggle against Shikai Ikkaku and Shikai Yumichika. She was cornered and waited for Bambietta.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Irrelevant, this was through transmutation.

Even if it happens through transformation, wouldn't it still scale because it damages it?

 

[Lynieryz]

Even if it happens through transformation, wouldn't it still scale because it damages it?

What scales? Bambietta didn't hurt him with a punch, she transmuted his skin with hax.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What scales? Bambietta didn't hurt him with a punch, she transmuted his skin with hax.

But at least for his dura neg to affect Hikone, he needs to be close to a certain level of reiatsu, right? Otherwise, he could have neutralized her dura neg with reiatsu.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Besides all that, the Zombie form Kensei also managed to surpass Giselle's durability.

I don't think you'll say Zombie Kensei > Giselle > Bambietta~~Komamura.

Being cornered by Shikai Ikkaku and Shikai Yumichika is another matter entirely. Ikkaku's Zanpakuto might even be weaker than before, as it was injured in the battle with Edrard. Mayuri mentioned that he couldn't repair his Zanpakuto.

 

[ItsMeat]

Ebern was just talking there. He wasn't expecting Ichigo to throw a flying kick at him. I think that was off-guard.

He still really felt the damage as you can see and was even sweating after that kick

Also, I suspect Giselle and Liltotto would try to turn him into a zombie while he was sleeping or something. I mean, they'd probably do that to an off-guard human Ichigo.

That still doesn't lower his power at all… Not to mention this is only speculation

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

He still really felt the damage as you can see and was even sweating after that kick

There's no such thing as damage taken from an off-guard blow disappearing when you stop being off-guard. For example, Tosen took damage from Hisagi while off-guard. If he later switched to on-guard and still felt the effects of the damage, would that be a feat for Hisagi?

To give examples from other series, Isshiki took damage from Kaguya while off-guard and was on his deathbed. Even if he later switched to on-guard, Kaguya shouldn't be scaled down.

That still doesn't lower his power at all… Not to mention this is only speculation

Why doesn't it reduce it? It's been stated many times that you can't use your powers if you don't focus. Besides, the character doesn't sleep or do daily tasks while in shinigami form. It's very clear that this statement refers to Ichigo outside of combat. Because later in the conversation, they talk about the people around Ichigo who can protect him. They couldn't defeat Ichigo when they fought him before. Why would they believe they could defeat him again and consider fighting him?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

A few more things that contradict the profile statement with the "feats":

Bambietta~~>Komamura>Shinji>Halibel>Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro=Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro>>>>Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Giselle

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Zombie Bambietta

Zombie Bambietta>Giselle

Iba considers Komamura's Bankai stronger than Ikkaku's. Ikkaku's Bankai was damaged in his fight with Edrard, so he never used it again. Since the Edrard fight, there is no evidence to suggest that Shikai Ikkaku has become strong enough to surpass Komamura. Conversely, the fact that he lost to Zombie Toshiro without being able to do anything confirms that Shikai Ikkaku isn't at that level due to the Komamura > Shinji > Halibel > Kid Toshiro scaling chain.

Even in CFYOW, Base Liltotto tries to stay as far away from Base Halibel's water as possible, knowing he shouldn't let his guard down against Halibel. Giselle stays even further away from Liltotto.

Base Halibel > Base Liltotto > Base Giselle

It's also stated that they have gathered their powers. They have everything except Volstandig.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Giselle

Are you seriously trying to use the scene where Giselle is (not very successfully) trying to trick them into cutting her so that she can get some new zombies?
Really? She actively wants her opponents to believe she's helpless for her powers. (Though this does remind me I should consider revising her durability to acknowledge that)

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Are you seriously trying to use the scene where Giselle is (not very successfully) trying to trick them into cutting her so that she can get some new zombies?
Really? She actively wants her opponents to believe she's helpless for her powers. (Though this does remind me I should consider revising her durability to acknowledge that)

No, he was waiting for Bambietta to rescue him. What would have happened if Ikkaku and Yumichika had attacked him before Bambietta arrived? If it were like the scene where he splattered blood on ordinary Shinigami, I would say he tanked the attack by lowering his durability to get more blood. But that's not the case at all in the Ikkaku and Yumichika scene.

Also, he was cut down by Zombie Kensei. It can't be said that he lowered his durability in that scene either.

 

[Random-Helper323]

What's been concluded here so far?

 

[Crobatman44]

A few more things that contradict the profile statement with the "feats":

Bambietta~~>Komamura>Shinji>Halibel>Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro=Kid Toshiro

Zombie Toshiro>>>>Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Giselle

Shikai Ikkaku & Shikai Yumichika>Zombie Bambietta

Zombie Bambietta>Giselle

Iba considers Komamura's Bankai stronger than Ikkaku's. Ikkaku's Bankai was damaged in his fight with Edrard, so he never used it again. Since the Edrard fight, there is no evidence to suggest that Shikai Ikkaku has become strong enough to surpass Komamura. Conversely, the fact that he lost to Zombie Toshiro without being able to do anything confirms that Shikai Ikkaku isn't at that level due to the Komamura > Shinji > Halibel > Kid Toshiro scaling chain.

Even in CFYOW, Base Liltotto tries to stay as far away from Base Halibel's water as possible, knowing he shouldn't let his guard down against Halibel. Giselle stays even further away from Liltotto.

Base Halibel > Base Liltotto > Base Giselle

It's also stated that they have gathered their powers. They have everything except Volstandig.

TYBW Post training/second invasion Toshiro/Zombie Toshiro is not scaling to halibel at all if you looked at the profiles or the scaling map that was used in the old cour 2 CRT.
It's not a valid arguement in this CRT at the moment.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

TYBW Post training/second invasion Toshiro/Zombie Toshiro is not scaling to halibel at all if you looked at the profiles or the scaling map that was used in the old cour 2 CRT.

Toshiro isn't normally Halibel level anyway. Doesn't Halibel still have higher AP? Also, even if they had the same values, Ikkaku and Yumichika don't scale to either Toshiro or Komamura.

Besides these, I can also use the following scaling from the novel:

Base Halibel > Base Liltotto > Cang Du <~~ Toshiro = Zombie Toshiro >>> Ikkaku & Yumichika