TenSura WN Revision — Back to Tier 1 (Recreated)

[Mbpoops]

Quick question. Even if there is a hypertimeline has rimuru showed that he can affect the entire hypertimeline because from what ive seen even if there was a hypertimeline hes only affecting one snapshot from it and not the entire thing. I couldve missed smthn tho.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Quick question. Even if there is a hypertimeline has rimuru showed that he can affect the entire hypertimeline because from what ive seen even if there was a hypertimeline hes only affecting one snapshot from it and not the entire thing. I couldve missed smthn tho.

We aren't arguing for Rimuru's time travel to be the hypertimeline.
It's Chloe's time travel ability, that allows her to go between different world-lines

Both are different.

 

[Mbpoops]

I see my bad then

 

[TheHyperGuy]

We aren't arguing for Rimuru's time travel to be the hypertimeline.
It's Chloe's time travel ability, that allows her to go between different world-lines

Both are different.

How can I dislike a post

So are you saying if its true that Chloe goes between world-lines, as in other dimensions or universes world-lines, then thats her affecting the hypertimeline? Wouldnt that still only be affecting snapshots of it?

Cause if she was to move one world-line entirely, its not like she's is affecting the hypertimeline, only the world-line she is currently in, within the space-time. So how would that even translate over to affecting the entire hypertimeline?

Or am I just missing something in this post and this is just you restating the feat that makes hypertimeline possible?

 

[Mbpoops]

How can I dislike a post

So are you saying if its true that Chloe goes between world-lines, as in other dimensions or universes world-lines, then thats her affecting the hypertimeline? Wouldnt that still only be affecting snapshots of it?

Cause if she was to move one world-line entirely, its not like she's is affecting the hypertimeline, only the world-line she is currently in, within the space-time. So how would that even translate over to affecting the entire hypertimeline?

Or am I just missing something in this post and this is just you restating the feat that makes hypertimeline possible?

thats more of what i was asking honestly. even if there was a hypertimeline is rimuru or chloe actually affecting the hypertimeline or just the snapshots because if they are just affecting the snapshots are then even low 2-C?

 

[Berga14]

So are you saying if its true that Chloe goes between world-lines, as in other dimensions or universes world-lines, then thats her affecting the hypertimeline?

she will gey low 1c range to her timetravell ability

thats more of what i was asking honestly. even if there was a hypertimeline is rimuru or chloe actually affecting the hypertimeline or just the snapshots because if they are just affecting the snapshots are then even low 2-C?

Chloe time travell is basically going forward between the low2c snapshots. So her timetravell will have 5D range. Rimuru is the only one capable of going backwards. More or less.

 

[Mbpoops]

Chloe time travell is basically going forward between the low2c snapshots. So her timetravell will have 5D range. Rimuru is the only one capable of going backwards. More or less.

this does not sound like it has been explained in the other replies or the op (correct me if im wrong). from what it seemed like she was described doing was just jumping for one snapshot (worldline) to the other without manipulating the hypothetical hyper timeline. and even then with the opposing arguments it makes more sense for her to just be moving the original worldline.

to add to this; how can you even prove chloe is affecting the hypertimeline after having this much trouble proving a hypertimeline even exists in the first place?

 

[Berga14]

without manipulating the hypothetical hyper timeline

What do you mean with "manipulating"?

from what it seemed like she was described doing was just jumping for one snapshot (worldline) to the other

Yeah, that is the point

with the opposing arguments it makes more sense for her to just be moving the original worldline.

I Half followed this crt so i'm not aware of your entire conversation but if i'm correct astral posted a scan that showed how chloe never affected the l2c world line.

how can you even prove chloe is affecting the hypertimeline

Chloe just travels in it

 

[Mbpoops]

What do you mean with "manipulating"?

Manipulating as in affecting my bad

Yeah, that is the point

Sooo.. what does this have to do with a hypertimeline..

I Half followed this crt so i'm not aware of your entire conversation but if i'm correct astral posted a scan that showed how chloe never affected the l2c world line.

Chloe just travels in it

Im more inclined to believing shadow and viethaii’s responses in which explains chloe traveled to the past of the same worldline which makes a lot more sense with the translations in page 4.

 

[Berga14]

Sooo.. what does this have to do with a hypertimeline..

1 Snapshot = 1 world line (4D).
Just realised you ment world line's snapshot.

Idk about the other dude explanations, i have no real intention of completely engage in the debate but it will be cool if you could show me exactly the messages that contains Rainer explanation that you support. Also which translation exactly?

Manipulating as in affecting my bad

yeah, i get that but why do you want her to affect it? Her AP isn't really important rn.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I've been wanting to make a detailed summary post, but I haven't been able to get on PC to do so (doing it on phone is too inconvenient given the length), but I think I'll get on PC tonight or tomorrow, and make it then.

How can I dislike a post

Tell that to the mods

So are you saying if its true that Chloe goes between world-lines, as in other dimensions or universes world-lines, then thats her affecting the hypertimeline? Wouldnt that still only be affecting snapshots of it?

I never said she's going to other dimensions or universes. She's only going to the divergent world-lines in the same dimension/Universe. Different things. Stop twisting my words lol

Cause if she was to move one world-line entirely,

Able to move between world-lines*
I assume you missed what Seiji said earlier (well not the first time so I'm kinda used to your shenanigans and expected it)

Are you agreeing with vietti or saying that it means movement between timelines

Seiji: latter from my brief read

its not like she's is affecting the hypertimeline, only the world-line she is currently in, within the space-time. So how would that even translate over to affecting the entire hypertimeline?

Moving between world-lines/timelines via time travel requires hypertimeline. Nothing said she's only so on a single World-Line (not only does saying otherwise contradict the author note inside the chapter but also his WoG in impressions on Time being a one-way street before chapter 248's Rimuru)

Or am I just missing something in this post and this is just you restating the feat that makes hypertimeline possible?

Maybe try reading the thread actually

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I've been wanting to make a detailed summary post, but I haven't been able to get on PC to do so (doing it on phone is too inconvenient given the length), but I think I'll get on PC tonight or tomorrow, and make it then.

As promised, here's the summary post.

Key Points indicating the Hypertimeline
Well, here are the main points that indicate that there's a hypertimeline:

1. Chloe uses Time Travel to travel between divergent Timelines.
2. The "World" (Dimension/Universe) is a structure that exists outside All-Time, containing it. This "World" has its own flow of Time, and stopping this "Time" can block Chloe's Time Travel ability (which can go to different timelines).
3. Time beyond Infinite Time.
4. Name of an ability that sends you outside 4D Time being "Hyper/Super Space-Time Magic".

Hyper Time Travel

Spoiler: Explanation

So this is Chloe's ability, before evolution and after evolution.
BEFORE

――Are the things in the future decided too?
No, what is decided to that extend is unknown.
What I know is this moment now, when the True Hero awakened, only to that extent.
At the time I flew into the past, the Hero whose existence overlaps disappeared and is untied from all limitations.
That is, even though it’s an existence of the assimilated me and you, it can be said to be another person.
Chapter 124

Though it might be impossible, even if she calculated it with the Unique Skill 『Mathematician』 , however she understood that the possibility for this is improbable.
(But still, I can’t help but pray. Because to die is to give up and make the best use of my life for everyone........)
Hinata accepted the offer.
“Thank you,” she muttered in small voice to the girl, Chloe, Hinata and Chloe’s soul mixed together as one and leapt through the barrier of time.
To a far-off past.
And now, the endless journey of the girl called Chloe and Hinata begins.
Chapter 124

AFTER

Because she went to the past together with Hinata’s Will, Chloe didn’t taste solitude. And under the tutoring of Hinata, an excellent teacher, she was able to learn all the skills that Hinata had known. Because of that the foundation was made......

――She awoke the Ultimate Skill 『Space-Time King (YogSothoth)』 ――

Thanks to this ability she was able to recall the future memory. It’s a thing that Chloe from previous iterations was not able to do.

Originally, Hinata’s 『Mathematician』 and 『Usurper』 were unified with 『Absolute Severance』 and 『Infinity Prison』 and she acquired Ultimate Skill 『Hope King (Sariel)』 .

This time, she absorbed the energy from Hinata’s Soul without a problem, so she could remain without being mixed, and Hinata’s soul could be revived in pure form. What it brought was an absolute power that rules over time and space.

It was the awakening of two abilities called Ultimate Skill『Space-Time King (Yog-Sothoth)』 and『Hope King (Sariel)』.

Chloe who awoke this ability and obtained an ability to memorize and repeat the time she spent on this moment again and again.

During combat, she was able to start over again after she saw the enemy’s attack.

That absolute superiority Chloe had, made Hero Chloe becomes the strongest existence.
Chapter 125

The attack that Guy used――Calamity Claw――, was an attack that carried an intense poison property.

But it wasn't something on the level of a "poison", it was an attack that infected the target with an infectious virus, which also corrodes the mind, starting from the point of contact.

In fact, Chloe has... Really "died" once to this attack.

Although her absolute defense automatically blocks incoming attacks, it doesn't stop the virus which spread to her from her sword.

As such, Chloe met her demise from the virus that was spread unto her from receiving Guy's attack.

Using Ultimate Skill『Space-Time King (Yog-Sothoth)』, she successfully evades the attack, after "remembering" the memory of dying once in the future.

After experiencing the event once, she returns to the past.

In other words, "remembering" a memory from the future.

To the opponent facing her, it’d simply look like Chloe made the "lucky" choice of evading the attack, but the truth is far from that.

With great confidence, Chloe was making the best choices in defense she could choose.
Chapter 209

So the one sole difference is her ability to or to not remember the future. But here's the thing, she can only travel to the past of different world-lines, because Time is a one-way street. It doesn't allow for conventional time travel.

Author’s Note
Explanation time. I wrote it and was confused.

I notice that the consistency was sketchy and I couldn’t write freely when I began to think about the concept of time. Though it almost got mixed up several times, but is it alright?

I pray that there will be no fatal mistakes found in there.

This time Chloe succeeded in moving between World-Lines!
(Or Chloe has successfully moved between worldlines this time., ableit this requires a more explicit approval)

Isn’t the World-Line volatility change by about 1%?

By the way, she acquired Reading Steiner too this time!
Chapter 125

[一言]
まあ、ぶっちゃけ「未来に送っただけなら時空系能力で戻ってこれる」ので…ユウキがそれを防ぐ為にどんな手札を残してるかが問題ですよね。
問題は時間を越えて戻ってこれると言うことは、その手札の攻略にどれだけの時間を費やそうが問題ない点でしょうか…
…と、いうか未来の果てに追放した、ユウキ一人では発動できない最終手段をいともたやすくコピー＆実行失そうなえげつないシエルさんしか予測できないｗ
ついでに、更に先ほどの戦闘からいろいろヒントを得て、リムル再強化してそうな気がしてならないｗｗ


そしてさり気なく、実にさり気なくラミリスさんが完全形態に…！

• 投稿者： 空っぽ
• 2014年 07月06日 22時35分

管理
　今の所、時間の流れは一方通行、だったんですけどね。

• 伏瀬
• 2014年 07月06日 22時39分

[一言]
問題の先送りて……失敗する画しか浮かびませんわ

未来に送られた側からすれば、自分におきたことを解析する時間が存分にとれるワケで
この戦いの間に既に未来から帰還したリムルが影で様子を窺ってても不思議じゃない

• 投稿者： 醤油煎餅
• 2014年 07月06日 22時50分

管理
　いやいや、送った隙に全て終らせる、これは良い手だと思いますよ。
　普通は、未来から過去へは移動不可能ですし。
　世界の法則＝ヴェルダナーヴァの作ったルールを超えるヤツがいるなんて、想定外もいいところ。

• 伏瀬
• 2014年 07月06日 22時58分

Suspended World, which stops the time of the "World", can nullify Chloe's ability.

(――Right now I must concentrate on the fight!)

Chloe forgot the thought.

She thought about focusing herself to her katana and sharpened her senses.

Guy and Velzard.

In front of those two overwhelming higher existences, worrying about something would lead her directly to death.

Since the『Memory Retrieval』of her Ultimate Skill『Space-Time Lord Yog-Sothoth』had been sealed off, she needed to face them with other abilities.

Time stop didn’t have a meaning either.

Because in the stopped world, you couldn’t stop time any further.

Even if you added a stopped world inside a stopped world, there’s no effect. It would only lengthen the duration of the stopped time.

Since her trump card was sealed off, she couldn’t say that she going easy anymore.

Besides, you have not lost to Yuuki yet. You just have to go and defeat him now.》

Ciel-san casually said those words.

I just have to go and defeat him now? Does she mean to go back to the bygone past?

Can something like that be done……?

Chloe seemed to be able to read the memories of the future with Time Leap[6], but that was just an ability to return to your past self.

Besides, it couldn’t be activated while time was stopped.

Yuuki would carefully plan to block a way out like that by stopping time.
Chapter 248

Outside "All-Time" - Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

First off, Time is infinite

Because Time is infinite and his lifespan was as well
時間は無限にあり、彼の寿命にも限りが無いのだから。

Now, what Chrono Saltation does is focus the flow of "All Time" on a single target at a single spatial coordinate. This basically stretches Time and Space WAYYYY too much, and as a result of Space trying to fix itself, the "Space" that's stretched rips apart on the target and then goes back to as it was, while throwing the target beyond Time and Space.

――Chrono Saltation――

　対象を時が終わる時空へと跳躍させる、究極の超時空魔法。
The Ultimate Super Space-Time Magic that forced the target to leap to space where time had ended.

The magic was formed by swallowing up all of the energy that filled the place and even the raging quakes in time.

Then, with that immeasurable energy, it took Rimuru away to the “End of Time and Space”.

時空連続体としての、リムルに連なる分身体までも全て根こそぎ巻き込んで……。
Even all of Rimuru’s clones were completely swallowed up by the space-time continuum……

If the “Soul Corridor” wasn’t closed, Rimuru’s subordinates and even Velgrind might also become the target of the magic.

All kind of resistance was futile against the terrifying and compelling force of this magic.

Chrono Saltation was impossible to be activated by Yuuki alone.

The reason was simple; it was a compound magic that required the activation of at least 2 or more magic at the same time. Moreover, the magic needed to be activated simultaneously by those with the exact same properties and qualities.

What Yuuki had put inside his prosthesis arm was a simple ultimate spell formula.

The effect was a reversal.

It was a spell formula to reverse the target’s magic effect.

Primitive Magic was a magic that reflected the user’s Will and it wouldn’t just activate because Yuuki understood what kind of magic to use.

Just by wishing it, the phenomenon was invoked. This characteristic was the reason why it was called as the Ultimate Magic.

By limiting the magic that Rimuru could use with Time Stop just now, Yuuki was able to induce Rimuru to activate magic that he desired.

The magic that Rimuru activated was simple and plain. That was nullification.

It was impossible to stop the magic if Rimuru were to try to analyze the magic that Yuuki activated. Given the time differences, the nullification wouldn’t catch up at the same time as Yuuki activated his magic.

Yuuki thought that way.

Instead, Yuuki induced Rimuru’s thoughts while showing his trump card and directed Rimuru to act like that in this situation.

Then, just as Yuuki had planned, Rimuru would activate the magic.

Everything was prepared by Yuuki and he had forced Rimuru to act splendidly, exactly as he wanted.

In the space where Genesis class’ energy collided and space-time quakes occurred, Yuuki had used Space-Time Magic: Time Stop.

Originally, there was no meaning of stopping time in Suspended World. It was impossible to stop further of what had stopped.

However, the circumstances were different this time due to Yuuki’s trick.

In order to nullify Yuuki’s magic, Rimuru had activated magic that had the same energy but with the opposite properties of Yuuki’s magic. His magic was reversed by Yuuki’s trick and transformed to magic with the same energy and properties as Yuuki’s magic.

By doing this, Yuuki met the conditions for activating Chrono Saltation.

Even if he added Time Stop to another Time Stop, the effect wouldn’t change.

However, it would cause drastic changes if he multiplied it.

Bathed in the flow of all time and received the repulsion of the space that tried to fix itself, the target was sent to beyond time.

《That’s right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki’s attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki’s lifespan had come to an end. However, I can’t judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe.》
Chapter 248

Visually, think of it like the visuals from 1:00 to 1:25 in this YouTube short:


So essentially, even if you are sent to beyond Time and Space, swallowed by the continuum and thrown out, you're still "inside the world". This would essentially be a hyperspace (insignificant size) that has its own flow of Time. As shown in the first point, and shown here below, if the "world/universe" doesn't exist, Chloe's time travel doesn't work.

Besides, you have not lost to Yuuki yet. You just have to go and defeat him now.》

Ciel-san casually said those words.

I just have to go and defeat him now? Does she mean to go back to the bygone past?

Can something like that be done……?

Chloe seemed to be able to read the memories of the future with Time Leap[6], but that was just an ability to return to your past self.

Besides, it couldn’t be activated while time was stopped.

Yuuki would carefully plan to block a way out like that by stopping time.
Chapter 248

[一言]
未来があったら世界もあるよねwww

ユウキの能力に神系列の能力が一つもねぇw

• 投稿者： 佐藤義清
• 2014年 07月06日 22時46分

管理
　世界はなかったが、問題もなかったｗ

• 伏瀬
• 2014年 07月06日 22時48分

Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

Because Time is infinite and his lifespan was as well
時間は無限にあり、彼の寿命にも限りが無いのだから。

Bathed in the flow of all time and received the repulsion of the space that tried to fix itself, the target was sent to beyond time.

《That’s right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki’s attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki’s lifespan had come to an end. However, I can’t judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe.》

《Because a long time has passed,『Turn Null』has accumulated an enormous amount of energy. Although Veldanava is said to have lost『Turn Null』by creating the world, there’s no problem since Rimuru-sama has『Imaginary Space』. Because『Imaginary Space』has an infinite capacity, it can’t be filled up. However, it has already been filled with enough energy that even recreating the world tens of thousands of times is possible. Additionally, it’s possible to reproduce the memories of those connected to Rimuru-sama and intentionally create a world that’s nearly identical from before. What will you do?[5]》
Chapter 248

However, I just woke up a little while ago, but Ciel had been waiting for me to wake up for countless years.

An unconcealable joy seeped out from her voice as she responded to my order.

In order to not betray that feeling, I choose the world that I think is the right one.
Chapter 248

《You finally woke up?》

Oh! Ciel-san said something to me.

Where are we?

Also what happened to Veldora-san?

《This is the End of the World. It could also be referred to as the “End of Time and Space”. As for Veldora, he was isolated inside the『Imaginary Space』and completely protected, so please rest assured.》
Chapter 248

So beyond "All Time", beyond the infinite time equal to yuuki's infinite lifespan, there's still a form of "Time" that flows inside the Space Rimuru is in, outside the continuum.
This can be explained as this:

Time & Infinities (Theoretical Model)
You see, when we reach a point where "Time" of X ends whereas Time of Y hasn't ended as a timeline, it necessitates an orthgonal view of Time. I like to call this Infinite Unsynchronity.

Take, for example, two lines X and Y. Two Continuums. Two timelines. They have different flows of Time, but only finitely such. That is, let's say 5 years pass in X, then 10 years or 1 year would pass in Y. A finite difference. You can visualize these continuums as an acute angle between the two continuums.

Now, you see, both are flowing towards the X axis direction. Both have the same direction of time, essentially. Therefore, no matter how much time difference (finite) there is, the "end of time" (passage of eternity) will always be the same in the end. It's like how adding 1 to Infinity doesn't make it more than infinity (countable of course).

On the other hand, in orthogonality, we can imagine two continuums X and Y, we can imagine it as a Right-angle.

As you can see, the right angle is akin to that x-y axes themselves (which are orthogonal to each other). That is, no matter how much time passes on X, no matter how "long" X is, the entire x-axis is only a single instance, a single moment in time, a single point, on Y axis. So, even if, let's say, infinite time passes along X, even then, Y would remain as is. Because X and Y are orthogonal to each other.

Another easy way is to put it like this.
We know Rimuru was outside the continuum, yet he was drifting in some "space" under the flow of time. Well, this particular case of Space refers to the 5-Dimensional Space (albeit not significant or tierable)

Crossing between Universes and Higher Dimensions​

Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.
Well, this means the space between Universes is by default 5D. That's insignificant in size, so it's not tierable, BUT the orthogonal direction is there.

Therefore, if, let's say, some form Time flows over that dimension too, it would by default have to be a different orthogonal direction. And since we assume by default that Time is infinite, it means if the higher dimension is temporal in nature instead of spatial, we by default assume it's significant.

Tier 2A : eternal/infinite timeline addition.

So as far I've read the Tier 2 in here on vs battle, I find out that it's divided on the basis of number of containers (Spacetime continuum) rather than very basic snapshots amount because If we go with amount of snapshots than it will all be equated to aleph 1 and division will not be possible...

vsbattles.com

So, in essence, yes, this higher "Time" is by default infinite and Orthogonal due to its nature.

Super/Hyper Space-Time Magic
Well, the last point, the smallest one too. Basically Chrono Saltation (that BFRs you outside all time) is called "Super-Space-Time" magic

Spoiler: Explanation

――Chrono Saltation――

　対象を時が終わる時空へと跳躍させる、究極の超時空魔法。
The Ultimate Super Space-Time Magic that forced the target to leap to space where time had ended.

Which is synonym with Hyper Space-Time. Well, this can only be used as minor supporting evidence at best, probably.

That concludes it. I will now ask some more staff that haven't given their input yet to evalute this.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As promised, here's the summary post.

Key Points indicating the Hypertimeline
Well, here are the main points that indicate that there's a hypertimeline:

1. Chloe uses Time Travel to travel between divergent Timelines.
2. The "World" (Dimension/Universe) is a structure that exists outside All-Time, containing it. This "World" has its own flow of Time, and stopping this "Time" can block Chloe's Time Travel ability (which can go to different timelines).
3. Time beyond Infinite Time.
4. Name of an ability that sends you outside 4D Time being "Hyper/Super Space-Time Magic".

Hyper Time Travel

Spoiler: Explanation

So this is Chloe's ability, before evolution and after evolution.
BEFORE


AFTER



So the one sole difference is her ability to or to not remember the future. But here's the thing, she can only travel to the past of different world-lines, because Time is a one-way street. It doesn't allow for conventional time travel.




Suspended World, which stops the time of the "World", can nullify Chloe's ability.

Outside "All-Time" - Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

First off, Time is infinite

Now, what Chrono Saltation does is focus the flow of "All Time" on a single target at a single spatial coordinate. This basically stretches Time and Space WAYYYY too much, and as a result of Space trying to fix itself, the "Space" that's stretched rips apart on the target and then goes back to as it was, while throwing the target beyond Time and Space.


Visually, think of it like the visuals from 1:00 to 1:25 in this YouTube short:


So essentially, even if you are sent to beyond Time and Space, swallowed by the continuum and thrown out, you're still "inside the world". This would essentially be a hyperspace (insignificant size) that has its own flow of Time. As shown in the first point, and shown here below, if the "world/universe" doesn't exist, Chloe's time travel doesn't work.

Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

So beyond "All Time", beyond the infinite time equal to yuuki's infinite lifespan, there's still a form of "Time" that flows inside the Space Rimuru is in, outside the continuum.
This can be explained as this:

Super/Hyper Space-Time Magic
Well, the last point, the smallest one too. Basically Chrono Saltation (that BFRs you outside all time) is called "Super-Space-Time" magic

Spoiler: Explanation

Which is synonym with Hyper Space-Time. Well, this can only be used as minor supporting evidence at best, probably.

That concludes it. I will now ask some more staff that haven't given their input yet to evalute this.

This time Chloe succeeded in moving between World-Lines!
(Or Chloe has successfully moved between worldlines this time., ableit this requires a more explicit approval)

Siejo is not confident he said in his brief read and Viet already addressed that issue. He should clarify this case at this point.

Also mind showing the kanji used to describe "between" in the raws?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Siejo is not confident he said in his brief read and Viet already addressed that issue. He should clarify this case at this point.

Also mind showing the kanji used to describe "between" in the raws?

Vietthai isn't really a full flegged translator unlike Setto, so I'd be inclined to trust him more than Vietthai in this aspect. Everyone has things that excell at after all.

Also, I don't see Setto saying he isn't confident though. Simply days "latter from my brief read".

TenSura WN Revision — Back to Tier 1 (Recreated)

There is one explanation for this long discussion, and I don’t think there’s more than this: →If the phrase "end of time" in this context means that this time has a point at which it stops that it has a specific moment it reaches, and it simply stops without being destroyed, just reaching its...

vsbattles.com

As for the raws, just track the reply chain from Feldway's reply in the quote. I can't get on PC till tomorrow now

 

[DemonKing021]

Snip

Why don't you update the votes? Dereck already told you this.

Can any of you help out here? Also I suggest the OP to update the vote tally of the OP, because 2 staffs already disagreed and many other members, I only see the agree section but not the disagree section updated.

No offense but if a user only sees agreements in a thread without any disagreements, there's a chance their votes will be swayed.

 

[Mbpoops]

Put me down for disagree aswell. Not that it matters much

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why don't you update the votes? Dereck already told you this.

No offense but if a user only sees agreements in a thread without any disagreements, there's a chance their votes will be swayed.

I'm pretty sure I made a vote tally post in the last page...

All the agreements are from non-staff and I kinda got lazy to add more users (non staff) there
Imma just remove them one from the OP and keep updating the tally at the end of every page

 

[Mbpoops]

I'm pretty sure I made a vote tally post in the last page...

Some people could miss it its better to have it in the OP

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Some people could miss it its better to have it in the OP

Adding votes in the OP is a hassle cuz of the forum code ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ
I can't assign colors and boldings there that easily without having to save and edit the thing 3 to 4 times....
On normal posts that doesn't happen for whatever damn reason.

They gonna miss it anyways if they don't read the OP

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Vietthai isn't really a full flegged translator unlike Setto, so I'd be inclined to trust him more than Vietthai in this aspect. Everyone has things that excell at after all.

I didn't say we can't trust him. Stop twisting my words. I said he should clarify his stance since Viet asked for clarification. Both are different.

Also, I don't see Setto saying he isn't confident though. Simply days "latter from my brief read".

He should reply back and clarify that since you already posted a different varient of translation in your OP.

TenSura WN Revision — Back to Tier 1 (Recreated)

There is one explanation for this long discussion, and I don’t think there’s more than this: →If the phrase "end of time" in this context means that this time has a point at which it stops that it has a specific moment it reaches, and it simply stops without being destroyed, just reaching its...

vsbattles.com

As for the raws, just track the reply chain from Feldway's reply in the quote. I can't get on PC till tomorrow now

I got the raws don't see where it is stated as between in that. I'm asking what kanji shows that?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

He should reply back and clarify that since you already posted a different varient of translation in your OP.

You mean the second one in ()?
I did say that one needs approval, thus why I'm relying on the one before it that Seiji agreed to.

I got the raws don't see where it is stated as between in that. I'm asking what kanji shows that?

According to what Seiji said before it's 移動 which requires "between". Well, I don't have a problems with him coming again to clarify nuasances

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

Put me down for disagree aswell. Not that it matters much

put me on neutral because the opposition did not make a summary like how astral did. (@Astral_Trinity439).

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

I don't know which of the options it is:
• Impartiality
• Lack of knowledge of verse
• Poor reading retention

But I find it hard to believe that something so simple cannot be understood; if it were another verse that did understand it, perhaps it would be accepted.

Note: I agree

 

[Vesxpura]

I don't know which of the options it is:
• Impartiality
• Lack of knowledge of verse
• Poor reading retention

You forgot poor arguments

 

[Mbpoops]

The thread just needs mod votes atp its been a while and is 7 pages long. Both sides should write a summary (if already written just put it in this page) and wait for staff

 

[Nonynho]

Both sides should write a summary (if already written just put it in this page)

Astral has written 2, iirc

 

[Reiner04]

But I find it hard to believe that something so simple cannot be understood; if it were another verse that did understand it, perhaps it would be accepted.

What I have been discussing here from the beginning is not even the Hypertimeline itself, but merely the premises and claims. I have already made it clear that even if I were to accept all the premises upon which the arguments for a Hypertimeline are based, it still wouldn't qualify. I would never accept such arguments for any verse unless I were biased enough to ignore what I believed to be wrong. So yeah, these kinds of arguements wouldn't ever work for me, regardless the verses one pick.

 

[Mbpoops]

As promised, here's the summary post.

Key Points indicating the Hypertimeline
Well, here are the main points that indicate that there's a hypertimeline:

1. Chloe uses Time Travel to travel between divergent Timelines.
2. The "World" (Dimension/Universe) is a structure that exists outside All-Time, containing it. This "World" has its own flow of Time, and stopping this "Time" can block Chloe's Time Travel ability (which can go to different timelines).
3. Time beyond Infinite Time.
4. Name of an ability that sends you outside 4D Time being "Hyper/Super Space-Time Magic".

Hyper Time Travel

Spoiler: Explanation

So this is Chloe's ability, before evolution and after evolution.
BEFORE


AFTER



So the one sole difference is her ability to or to not remember the future. But here's the thing, she can only travel to the past of different world-lines, because Time is a one-way street. It doesn't allow for conventional time travel.




Suspended World, which stops the time of the "World", can nullify Chloe's ability.

Outside "All-Time" - Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

First off, Time is infinite

Now, what Chrono Saltation does is focus the flow of "All Time" on a single target at a single spatial coordinate. This basically stretches Time and Space WAYYYY too much, and as a result of Space trying to fix itself, the "Space" that's stretched rips apart on the target and then goes back to as it was, while throwing the target beyond Time and Space.


Visually, think of it like the visuals from 1:00 to 1:25 in this YouTube short:


So essentially, even if you are sent to beyond Time and Space, swallowed by the continuum and thrown out, you're still "inside the world". This would essentially be a hyperspace (insignificant size) that has its own flow of Time. As shown in the first point, and shown here below, if the "world/universe" doesn't exist, Chloe's time travel doesn't work.

Time beyond Infinite Time

Spoiler: Explanation

So beyond "All Time", beyond the infinite time equal to yuuki's infinite lifespan, there's still a form of "Time" that flows inside the Space Rimuru is in, outside the continuum.
This can be explained as this:

Super/Hyper Space-Time Magic
Well, the last point, the smallest one too. Basically Chrono Saltation (that BFRs you outside all time) is called "Super-Space-Time" magic

Spoiler: Explanation

Which is synonym with Hyper Space-Time. Well, this can only be used as minor supporting evidence at best, probably.

That concludes it. I will now ask some more staff that haven't given their input yet to evalute this.

Supporting side summary (idk where the opposing side’s summary is so if someone wouldnt mind putting it on the most recent page )

 

[Reiner04]

Thanks for the WOG source. I skimmed through the site and his statements, and it seems that the Suspended World, or a world where time is frozen (like the End of Spacetime), doesn't really have a future in general, or atleast that's a kind of in-verse mechanics it follows likely; that’s why Chloe’s future predictions don’t work in it. And WOG seems to confirm such conditions:

Spoiler: Scan1

Also, not to mention, 'there is no future' in a literal sense directly contradicts what has been stated within the novel, that is, ''Rimuru was sent to the void far in the future''. So, either he meant it as in the future doesn't exist at the End of the World coz time is frozen, or it's DOTA.

Spoiler: Scan2

Coming to the next point: the OP's claims that entropy and spacetime aren't interconnected, that the heat death of the universe is likely an outlier, and that the End of Time and Space is outside of the timeline do not appear to be true. Skimming through the WOGs provided on the site, it seems Fuse is trying to establish a relationship between how entropy works and the state of spacetime in relation to it. He even went as far as to say, 'we can only imagine the things that would happen at absolute zero' (one of the states of the heat death of the universe). It appears the author is merely using his creativity to depict the state of the End of Time and Space using the heat death of the universe, showing how everything, including time and the expansion of space, has been halted.

Spoiler: Scan3-4

So yeah,

• We don't know what kind of thing might happen when the universe will reach state of absolute zero in accordance with the law of entropy so author took liberty of using his creativity to depict it.
• SpaceTime and entropy are inter-related.
• End of Time and Space is in the future where space and time are interconnected, so both, Space and Time exist.
• Within the state of suspended world or End of Time and Space, future doesn't exist as fuse agreed with above, so its likely that or DOTA.
• Universe died in accordance with the Law of Entropy.
• Beyond Time and Space doesn't really mean anything on its own, in the context it has been used, it can mean Myriad of things, tho to me, it appears to be referring to merely going to the future.

This.

And

This.

Okay, I promise a response and while I'm pretty darn late and this thread probably isn't passing anyway, I don't wanna hold onto this response any further and would just get straight into it. Here goes:

Okay, you do see how these two statements are a bit contradictory right? How is something outside All Time, both beyond time but also swallowed by the space-time continuum?

Yeah, so this is a bit of a problem. You see, a hypertimeline only makes sense if the temporal axes have unique points of origin, that is, a hypertimeline must have a different point of origin to a regular universe or multiverse or in this case a world-line. This is one of the best ways to prove the flow of time is orthogonal to the regular multiverse. Now to prove unique origins of time, it's true that time traveling within the world-line and also time traveling to other world-lines does depict a time-like progression of said world-lines however, this is only true if you always use the same ability in both cases of time travel. If they're different abilities (you didn't really clarify it here so this is confusing), then it's not really evidence. If they're different abilities, then you'd need other more explicit evidence to show that this new ability only works for traveling through the hypertimeline (which is obviously very hard to do because few fictional works ever use the term itself let alone using it properly in this context). If they were the same time travel ability, then it'd be very good evidence.

This just implies a different space-time altogether. It's very common for fiction to use places that are "outside of time/space-time" but often it still has both space and time. This isn't really good evidence for an orthogonal axis of time.

I'm.... not sure what this really means. The range is Low 2-C, sure, but you don't really need to rely on the mechanics of time stop to prove that.


This doesn't really mean much, the terms super/hyper are rarely if ever used in the context of a supertimeline/hypertime.

No, it very much is possible and barring the resolution of the issues that I pointed out it seems to be that the people who called it "parallel" time were pretty much right. You need something to prove that the hypertimeline moves perpendicular to the direction of the normal time here, not parallel to.

No, this is patently false. Why? Look no further.

Here, the "Time X" ends before Time Y yet neither are perpendicular or orthogonal to one another DESPITE clearly being different axes of time themselves. You seem to misunderstand this part. Being different axes of time alone isn't enough, they must flow in different directions in which case they're not here, but this still satisfies your analogy here.

This right here an issue. An orthogonal flow of time doesn't necessitate that there's any difference of "time" between the two axes (of course, having a difference isn't a dealbreaker either, but it's not what I'd call a plus point either) You're thinking of time as two lines on a cartesian plane forming an acute angle with a different rate of change for them w.r.t to the "X-axis" here (which is unironically what you say in your very next paragraph) but it just doesn't like that with time. Time traveling to a different world-line whether to the same point in time or a point in time slightly ahead (within the new world-line compared to the point in time you left from in the previous world-line) are both equally valid to be sure (at least if the same technique is employed) but a mere difference in time alone just isn't sufficient like I said earlier.

No, they do NOT have the same direction. The horizontal line can be a worldline, the line at an acute angle would be the hypertimeline in this case. The purpose of this hypertimeline is to create an uncountably infinite number of 4D world-lines which is what gets you Low 1-C, similar to how a 4D world-line creates an uncountably infinite number of 3D "slices" of a universe, giving you Low 2-C. It HAS to flow in a different direction to be able to do this and it's also why it has a different point of origin to your normal world-line (unlike what this picture depicts) because it's creating (originating) a new world-line every instance of its passing, giving them different origins (in this diagrams case, imagine drawing more horizontal lines parallel to the original one, that is what's supposed to be happening here).


Well yes, that's the difference between traveling across a normal timeline and a hypertimeline. And yes, both images would technically work as a depiction of a hypertimeline structure, but the main evidence that you provided just isn't there and showing that a difference in time (like with the argument) is not a disqualifier isn't really a positive argument for you because we already know it doesn't have to be EXACTLY a 90 degree orthogonal difference for this to work. You're still lacking that fundamental piece of evidence to prove that these axes have different points of origin and aren't just parallel in nature AND that one embeds the other creating an uncountably infinite instances of it (or in simpler worlds, a time-like progression).

Yes, it would be orthogonal, but then you can't prove that it embeds the other space-times/world-lines because it literally exists outside of them, or in other words, you cannot then prove that this flow of time creates uncountably infinite copies/time-like progression of the world-lines. This would just be a random space-time separate from the continuum flowing in a different direction, it isn't embedding them in any way. To use your diagram analogy, imagine a horizontal line on one piece of paper, and a vertical or orthogonal line but on another piece of paper. Neither embeds the other despite them being orthogonal, so it doesn't really work.


Uh.... this is not how it works. The dimension separating two or more universes is ALWAYS spatial in nature, that's how dimensions work. A Low 2-C universe is an infinite 4D object consisting of uncountably infinitely many 3D slices. They need a 4th spatial axis to separate them and keep them parallel. This is why the dimension can't be "temporal" in nature. It can have time, it can be a space-time, but that doesn't mean it embeds them (unless you have evidence that this "in-between space-time" actually surrounds all space-times and doesn't just exist to separate two of them, then this might work as some evidence).


Time is always infinite, you did not however prove that it's both simultaneously "higher/embeds other space-times" and that it's orthogonal.


This is my short response to this CRT. It is by no means a comprehensive nor an exhaustive list of issues that I've found with this, but I do believe these are some very key points that this CRT hinges on that need to be brought under more scrutiny that I believe they've gotten here. I'll see later if I can respond to more points as well and possibly elaborate further on what I've said.

I think these 2 posts quite addresses everything i have in mind. So don't make write it all down just to repeat all that. No way my lazy ass doing it anyways.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

This.

And

This.

I think these 2 posts quite addresses everything i have in mind. So don't make write it all down just to repeat all that. No way my lazy ass doing it anyways.

They've been replied to.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensura-wn-revision-back-to-tier-1-recreated.186919/post-7494810

 

[Reiner04]

They've been replied to.

An exchange of replies can go on endlessly, but that doesn't mean they actually address the core issue. We aren't required to agree with every reply we receive, nor should we have to go on indefinitely just to address them. Again and Again and Again, adinfinitum.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

You forgot poor arguments

The counter-arguments used to discredit them are based on hypotheses that are far removed from reality, in fact, very far from what it seems.

Someone with minimal knowledge of the web novel (and who isn't one of those who only disagree with the verses they hate) would know it; you can't base an external logic on a verse that applies it in a way you don't know much about.

Much of what is taken out of this scale depends on how the verse is handled, especially regarding Yuuki being a spiritual life form (eternal beings) so to speak.

What I have been discussing here from the beginning is not even the Hypertimeline itself, but merely the premises and claims. I have already made it clear that even if I were to accept all the premises upon which the arguments for a Hypertimeline are based, it still wouldn't qualify. I would never accept such arguments for any verse unless I were biased enough to ignore what I believed to be wrong. So yeah, these kinds of arguements wouldn't ever work for me, regardless the verses one pick.

So far I've only seen that you're lowering your answers from apparent hypotheses while Astral Trinity responds with the novel itself and the system of how the Verse works. I'd like to contribute something to the thread, but I don't have any material. Even so, let's see what happens next.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Stop fighting and wait.

 

[Reiner04]

So far I've only seen that you're lowering your answers from apparent hypotheses while Astral Trinity responds with the novel itself and the system of how the Verse works. I'd like to contribute something to the thread, but I don't have any material. Even so, let's see what happens next.

I think you are misunderstanding the roles of the staff and the OP within this thread. You seems to be basing your opinion as supporter of the verse solely on the fact that we disagree with your preferred interpretation

As the OP, Astral Trinity’s obligations is entirely different from mine. The OP is responsible for providing scans, logic, and interpretations to show that their stance aligns with our guidelines and qualifies for the result they are proposing (which in this case is hypertime). They aren't doing us a favor by doing this, it is simply the requirement for opening a thread. I’m not sure what else you expect them to do.

As Staff, my job is to cross-examine that logic to see if the interpretations provided actually qualify for the proposed result, that doesn't necessarily requires scans and i hope you know why. I am cross-examining the provided scans, logic, interpretations to see if they are correct and qualifies for the end results.

If 'Person A' proposes that 'Character B' can use poison, and provides a scan of them using it to argue for 'Poison resistance,' that doesn't make them correct. Their scans might not even come close to achieving the result they are proposing. I don’t necessarily need new scans to examine the logic of a claim, I simply need to apply our standards to the evidence provided.

That said, I have already provided a massive amount of scans and reasoning explaining why I find the premise incorrect. As long as one isn't intentionally being blind and ignoring the arguments provided or trying to misrepresent the opposition, they can easily find that evidence, in fact, it’s on the very page before this one. I hope this explains it pretty much.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

I think you are misunderstanding the roles of the staff and the OP within this thread. You seems to be basing your opinion as supporter of the verse solely on the fact that we disagree with your preferred interpretation

As the OP, Astral Trinity’s obligations is entirely different from mine. The OP is responsible for providing scans, logic, and interpretations to show that their stance aligns with our guidelines and qualifies for the result they are proposing (which in this case is hypertime). They aren't doing us a favor by doing this, it is simply the requirement for opening a thread. I’m not sure what else you expect them to do.

As Staff, my job is to cross-examine that logic to see if the interpretations provided actually qualify for the proposed result, that doesn't necessarily requires scans and i hope you know why. I am cross-examining the provided scans, logic, interpretations to see if they are correct and qualifies for the end results.

If 'Person A' proposes that 'Character B' can use poison, and provides a scan of them using it to argue for 'Poison resistance,' that doesn't make them correct. Their scans might not even come close to achieving the result they are proposing. I don’t necessarily need new scans to examine the logic of a claim, I simply need to apply our standards to the evidence provided.

That said, I have already provided a massive amount of scans and reasoning explaining why I find the premise incorrect. As long as one isn't intentionally being blind and ignoring the arguments provided or trying to misrepresent the opposition, they can easily find that evidence, in fact, it’s on the very page before this one. I hope this explains it pretty much.

This applies to you more

 

[Reiner04]

This applies to you more

Anyways get back on topic. Everyone.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

This.

And

This.

I think these 2 posts quite addresses everything i have in mind. So don't make write it all down just to repeat all that. No way my lazy ass doing it anyways.

An exchange of replies can go on endlessly, but that doesn't mean they actually address the core issue. We aren't required to agree with every reply we receive, nor should we have to go on indefinitely just to address them. Again and Again and Again, adinfinitum.

You do know the very same person you're quoting as "agree with" does not know what orthogonality is? When he's being far, far more lenient on things that our standards outright deny? And you do know the same person you're quoting said he'd agree to the hypertimeline existing under the premise that Chloe is using the time travel ability itself to travel between world-lines?

And to that Astral already clarified, whereas the other person has not replied again this thread. This isn't about "did not seek to argue further", this is about him asking a question if it's the same time travel ability being used to time travel, which we proved that yes, it is.

On the other hand, Your own arguments and keypoints only address everything other than Chloe's time travel, which currently is being used as the most obvious + main argument with evidence.

As for "the translation is a bit wrong", Seiji already clarified it means moving between world-lines before, with no uncertainty in his words, so why are we trusting the words of the opposition in terms of what it translates to when even a translation staff has said otherwise?

 

[Forthegood]

Genuinely hope they nuke the Hypertimeline bs standards and refine it. Some verses should realistically be 3A on this kak site.

 

[Mbpoops]

Genuinely hope they nuke the Hypertimeline bs standards and refine it. Some verses should realistically be 3A on this kak site.

Please dont this would affect my glorious xeno goku

 

[Mbpoops]

I do have a question (mightve been answered previously and i forgot) lets say hypothetically the hypertimeline stuff is accepted. Does anyone actually scale to it?