Avos Dilhevia (Maou Gakuin) VS Veldanava (Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken)

[Dereck03]

True Dereck vs Echitesus' alt should be.

 

[BreezeHM]

Or Breeze

 

[Reiner04]

Strongest wanker in history vs strongest wanker of today.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip

Snip

Just ignore her natural regeneration and immortality assuming they cancel each other out due to Veldanava being able to put down Diablo or Guy. Agronemt is different from that, it uses attack as origin and has feats for reviving Anos whose regeneration was negated, so I don’t think Veldanava has anything to put her down. Unless I'm missing some regeneration negation information for Veldanava other than diablo.

As for Venuzdonoa, she should be able to summon it instantly, since she was equal to Anos at that time, and he summoned it instantly when he was in the Spirit Forest. The time limit doesn’t matter, since its effect will still remain afterward. Once she swings and destroys Veldanava, he isn’t coming back, even if there’s a five-minute time limit for using it after summoning. The time limit applies to maintaining the summoned castle, not to the effect itself.

Regarding killing the people who know about Avos, it’s a bit complicated. I don’t see that happening, since you would need to kill almost everyone from Anos’s world. I’m not sure how this is treated in vsmatches, though.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I think that, in the context of permanently killing, the fact that the resurrection is overtime doesn't matter, and we can assume that Veldanava could also permanently kill Diablo since Guy and Diablo have the same type of resurrection. Also, any resurrection after Initialize Heaven is a bit problematic...

Was it the only true dragons reviving after that?

 

[BreezeHM]

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

We'll know you are useless no need for your poster

 

[BreezeHM]

We'll know you are useless no need for your poster

 

[Lycoris4812]

Just ignore her natural regeneration and immortality assuming they cancel each other out due to Veldanava being able to put down Diablo or Guy. Agronemt is different from that, it uses attack as origin and has feats for reviving Anos whose regeneration was negated, so I don’t think Veldanava has anything to put her down. Unless I'm missing some regeneration negation information for Veldanava other than diablo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agronemt can't be used by someone whose source is destroyed, so Anos time-travels it or whatever to make it still work then.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

As for Venuzdonoa, she should be able to summon it instantly, since she was equal to Anos at that time, and he summoned it instantly when he was in the Spirit Forest. The time limit doesn’t matter, since its effect will still remain afterward. Once she swings and destroys Veldanava, he isn’t coming back, even if there’s a five-minute time limit for using it after summoning. The time limit applies to maintaining the summoned castle, not to the effect itself.

I must have remembered wrong then, since Graham was only ever to take his form after the sword was desummoned, no?

(Though the situation is a bit different, it does suggest that the "order" was capable of regenerating after the sword was gone.)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agronemt can't be used by someone whose source is destroyed, so Anos time-travels it or whatever to make it still work then.

It can be used when the source is gone, if the user makes the "attack" the origin of the spell.

 

[Dereck03]

I must have remembered wrong then, since Graham was only ever to take his form after the sword was desummoned, no?

Because Graham had to be destroyed up to an ad-infinitum amount of times to get permanently destroyed.

(Though the situation is a bit different, it does suggest that the "order" was capable of regenerating after the sword was gone.)

The situation here is special, and it is more Anos' intervention, since if order were not allowed to regenerate, the world would end = end of the story.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Because Graham had to be destroyed up to an ad-infinitum amount of times to get permanently destroyed.

I still disagree with that.

The situation here is special, and it is more Anos' intervention, since if order were not allowed to regenerate, the world would end = end of the story.

The point is that it's not so much "final" after it has been de-summoned; if the user is still capable of regenerating after that, it will no longer be blocking it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agronemt can't be used by someone whose source is destroyed, so Anos time-travels it or whatever to make it still work then.

He doesn't need to get his source destroyed. That was due to Evansmana was his weakness. There was a statement from Vol 4 states Anos knowing the attack is enough to use Agronemt.

I must have remembered wrong then, since Graham was only ever to take his form after the sword was desummoned, no?

(Though the situation is a bit different, it does suggest that the "order" was capable of regenerating after the sword was gone.)

Graham exists outside of Order. I don’t know why everyone is fixated on him when there are tons of feats, like Eugo getting cooked even though he has HGR. Then there is a clear statement about HFG not coming back, and the world moving toward destruction due to the loss of Order. He also changed Eleonore into his own magic using the sword effect, which is permanent. Graham is just an exception. Also, I’m pretty sure there was even a statement from Anos where he made it clear in Volume 3 that he can remove a Type 1 concept from the world permanently.

 

[Dereck03]

I still disagree with that.

You are always welcome to try

The point is that it's not so much "final" after it has been de-summoned; if the user is still capable of regenerating after that, it will no longer be blocking it.

It's the end, yes. Unless you have feats to resist it or if the wielder allows your regeneration.

Because, in case you didn't know, Venuzdonoa can grant its wielder HGR even if your regeneration is being negated.

But this above isn't on the profile yet.

 

[Lycoris4812]

He doesn't need to get his source destroyed. That was due to Evansmana was his weakness. There was a statement from Vol 4 states Anos knowing the attack is enough to use Agronemt.

I'm not sure you understand. Is this statement true or not?

The origin spell, Agronemt. By using Jerga's attack and my source as an origin, my source could be returned to its state before receiving the attack. The spell normally couldn't be used by one whose source had disappeared, but I'd prepared beforehand by using Rivide to send Agronemt into the future.

 

[Saucy_Jackistan24]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agronemt can't be used by someone whose source is destroyed, so Anos time-travels it or whatever to make it still work then.

But that’s not the only way it’s used, Anos at that time casted it manually because his source was weakened at the time and was facing a sword similar in nature to Evansmana (his weakness), so Anos being cautious, sent it into the future via <Rivide>

There are many examples of Agronemt being used automatically/instantly, like:

Avos having her source regenerated automatically by Agronemt after it was destroyed by <Vebzud>

When Anos destroyed Nousgalia's source, he had cast Agronemt immediately as Nousgalia's source got destroyed, instantly regenerating it, using his own attack as an origin, thus not needing to pre-cast it using <Rivide>

And more, so in short, you just need to be familiar with the attack inorder for Agronemt to activate on its own to regenerate you (as shown with Avos’s case) / being able to cast it instantly (as shown with Nousgalia’s case)

 

[CodeCCLL]

Was it the only true dragons reviving after that?

As far as I understand:

Yes, but the reason is that True Dragons are connected to world as the source of the world/holy will of nature, and they can be resurrected even from nothingness when the World is recreated after Initialize Heaven, (i.e., HGR + Immo 8). However, while it is said that Primordial Demons, whose have no connection to world, (can be resurrected from any condition without losing their memories and they are said to be superior to True Dragons because of this aspect of their resurrection), they cannot be resurrected after Initialize Heaven.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm not sure you understand. Is this statement true or not?

I understand your question. I think saucy explained it almost. I might post the Vol 4 scan where it was stated he can use the spell if he already knows the attack.

 

[Tatsumi504]

that's @DemonKing021 job. I means he is his favourite so IDC

Ain't vector an Eizel wanker? When did he jump ship to Revalseggs?

About every other relevant thing I picked up;

• Veldana ain't nuking the world. Not only is it far larger than his own cosmology, there are beings there that will stop it
• Agronemt can be used as long as they know about the attack. The statement from vol 3 basically gets thrown out the window after that. Avos herself is the biggest proof of that.
• Yes both she and the sword can interact with IM2, is a bigger question if Veldanava can interact with all her aspects
• 5 min time limit only applies to the duration of the castle summoning and it can arrive instantly. No, sheathing the sword won't allow him to come back. All the God's it's killed stay dead, Eleonore is still Anos magic, Igareth continued to remain a being removed from time etc
• Veldanava can't permanently put her down as her resistance to immortality and Regen negation is layered (trust me when I say you don't want me going into it)

That's all I've got for now

 

[DemonKing021]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Agronemt can't be used by someone whose source is destroyed, so Anos time-travels it or whatever to make it still work then.

Nope. Avos can regenerate her source as long as she knows the attack instantly using Agronemt. Time travel isn't needed at all.

I'm not sure you understand. Is this statement true or not?

It was at that time. But Anos constantly makes his spells better, so it's irrelevant now.

Her immortality type 8 is on rumors from people, right?
What if Veldanava just nukes the entire world she's reliant on... (Iirc both are 2-A)

In that case at best he would be able to destroy a single Divine Domain, not the world which contains countless of those divine domains. Not to mention Divine Domains are insignificant compared to the bubble world.

It can be used when the source is gone, if the user makes the "attack" the origin of the spell.

Not really. Agronemt activates on its own as long as the user is familiar with the spell.

Here she is familiar with Evansmana and thus was able to revive herself automatically. She neither used Rivide, nor she actually took that attack in her source.

There was a flash of light, and blood dripped down the blade. Evansmana had pierced Avos Dilhevia.
A weak cry and red blood spilled from her lips. The fraudulent Demon King’s body was bathed in the light of the Sword of Three Races. But the next moment, that light disappeared.
“Lay!” Misa screamed.
A black sun was closing in on him from behind.
“Hiyah!” Lay used his holy sword to slice through Jio Graze, then looked off into the distance.
“Did you really think I would die if you destroyed my source?”
Avos Dilhevia was standing there. Having been defeated by the Sword of Three Races once already, she was able to revive using Agronemt.

Then we have this too. Avos' source was never crushed by Vebzud but she was still able to reassurect automatically due to being familiar with the spell.

Avos Dilhevia’s mauve Magic Eyes bore into me, deep into my abyss.
“Why... Why can’t I see your limits? Even though I’m the Demon King of Tyranny, I...”
“That is your answer. In the end, you’re no more than rumor and legend.”
With my right hand of black destruction, I crushed her source. Avos Dilhevia fell forward lifelessly.
“You are an imitation, Avos Dilhevia.”
Avos Dilhevia’s source shattered, but the Agronemt magic circle within her body immediately activated and regenerated her source. Her hand gripped my arm weakly.

I must have remembered wrong then, since Graham was only ever to take his form after the sword was desummoned, no?

(Though the situation is a bit different, it does suggest that the "order" was capable of regenerating after the sword was gone.)

No that doesn't suggest that actually.

Graham being a Misfit and his nihility is different from Order and thus shouldn't be equated at all.

We have various examples of Venuzdonoa being able to destroy beings of Order such as Eugo La Raviaz and Jerga and they are suddenly not back

 

[ThienDe01]

I'd like to ask if it's not allowed to use all abilities from both keys in this battle?

I want Veldanava and Avos to be able to use all their abilities in battle, so Veldanava should use both keys.

 

[CodeCCLL]

there are beings there that will stop it

Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities' power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment, or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a character's own powers and abilities.

Can you explain who will stop them?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Can you explain who will stop them?

That's talking about interfering with the fight directly you expect everyone to fold their arms and die just cause of a vs battle? They won't interfere with the outcome but stop their world from being destroyed.

Should that as well not be allowed there's a multitude of characters who will survive 2-A nuking or just resurrect immediately after so this line of reasoning doesn't work

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In that case at best he would be able to destroy a single Divine Domain, not the world which contains countless of those divine domains. Not to mention Divine Domains are insignificant compared to the bubble world.

Both are 2-A rn
Amount of X doesn't matter in 2-A. Whether it's infinite x infinite or just infinite, remains the same.
Evaluate based on what's currently accepted, not what could or will be accepted in the future.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Take this to fun and games so you can argue everything

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Both are 2-A rn
Amount of X doesn't matter in 2-A. Whether it's infinite x infinite or just infinite, remains the same.
Evaluate based on what's currently accepted, not what could or will be accepted in the future.

it would still matter as range.
this would mean Veldanava would and could only destroy 1 divine domain at a time rather than all at once
(Taken what they said about divine domain being 2-A is true because i have no idea)

 

[CodeCCLL]

That's talking about interfering with the fight directly you expect everyone to fold their arms and die just cause of a vs battle? They won't interfere with the outcome but stop their world from being destroyed.

Should that as well not be allowed there's a multitude of characters who will survive 2-A nuking or just resurrect immediately after so this line of reasoning doesn't work

If the existence of the world would benefit one of side, then other characters cannot intervene in the destruction of the world. Neither side can be allowed to gain an advantageous or disadvantageous position due to external circumstances, as this positions could affect the absolute outcome of the versus battle.

For example: Let's assume Avos cannot survive or completely loses her moving abilities in the void/5-dimensional timeless space. In this case, preventing Veldanava from using Initialize Heaven or Turn Null to destroy or absorb the multiverse would put Avos in an advantageous position, therefore this cannot be allowed.

I'm talking on the assumption that the world's existence would be beneficial to Avos, because otherwise, why would the world's existence be important/worth mentioning?

Should that as well not be allowed there's a multitude of characters who will survive 2-A nuking or just resurrect immediately after so this line of reasoning doesn't work

By the way, I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was just asking what exactly could prevent destruction of the world? In the context of whether it's some kind of blessing or something else.

"There's a multitude of characters who will survive 2-A nuking or just resurrect immediately " but what importance do these characters have, for example?

 

[CodeCCLL]

range

Three thousand planet

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Three thousand planet

1 billion lion victims

 

[Tatsumi504]

If the existence of the world would benefit one of side, then other characters cannot intervene in the destruction of the world. Neither side can be allowed to gain an advantageous or disadvantageous position due to external circumstances, as this positions could affect the absolute outcome of the versus battle.

For example: Let's assume Avos cannot survive or completely loses her moving abilities in the void/5-dimensional timeless space. In this case, preventing Veldanava from using Initialize Heaven or Turn Null to destroy or absorb the multiverse would put Avos in an advantageous position, therefore this cannot be allowed.

I'm talking on the assumption that the world's existence would be beneficial to Avos, because otherwise, why would the world's existence be important/worth mentioning?

The point of destroying the world came up as a way to exploit the nature of spirits and finish her off quickly without having to fight her at all. Destroy the people in the world and her rumors would've ended. If a spirits rumors dies out then that spirit ceases to exist until those rumors are spread again.

I'm failing to see how the existence of the world is considered beneficial to her considering it's people are merely the foundation of her existence. That's why the world's existence is important, worth mentioning. I believe someone from your side is the one who came up with the idea of committing genocide as a way for Velda to win (I'm just joking btw, it wasn't worded like this)

By the way, I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was just asking what exactly could prevent destruction of the world? In the context of whether it's some kind of blessing or something else.

"There's a multitude of characters who will survive 2-A nuking or just resurrect immediately " but what importance do these characters have, for example?

What I'm talking about is that in the event that the characters whose existence Avos dependent upon protecting themselves or/and the world against such large scale destruction is still counted as outside interference, a significant number of them would still have a way to resurrect thus Avos rumors would never truly be ended by Velda destroying everything

 

[AlexSamDen]

What I'm talking about is that in the event that the characters whose existence Avos dependent upon protecting themselves or/and the world against such large scale destruction is still counted as outside interference, a significant number of them would still have a way to resurrect thus Avos rumors would never truly be ended by Velda destroying everything

Another thing I want to bring up: those who survive the nuking (which is only the strongest people, as that's a 2-A nuke with HGR Negation), aren't they aware that Avos ≠ Anos? Meaning she loses his powers? And she would also be massively weakened, since there would be a lot less people believing in her

 

[Tatsumi504]

Another thing I want to bring up: those who survive the nuking (which is only the strongest people, as that's a 2-A nuke with HGR Negation), aren't they aware that Avos ≠ Anos? Meaning she loses his powers? And she would also be massively weakened, since there would be a lot less people believing in her

An entire realm with countless Gods who resist HGR Negation would beg to differ. No, knowing Avos =/= Anos changes nothing and she wouldn't be weakened

 

[Hecky2222]

Strongest wanker in history vs strongest wanker of today.

Alien Ex solos this thread

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

An entire realm with countless Gods who resist HGR Negation would beg to differ. No, knowing Avos =/= Anos changes nothing and she wouldn't be weakened

I disagree. The point is that no one who doesn’t know of her will be left alive. There would be no one left who believes in her. Only people that “could survive” would be people who have a connection to her in the first place

 

[Tatsumi504]

I disagree. The point is that no one who doesn’t know of her will be left alive. There would be no one left who believes in her. Only people that “could survive” would be people who have a connection to her in the first place

Tf is your ass even talking about? "No one who doesn't know her", "beliefs" when were these things ever a factor?

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

this is a fun and games type of matchup and a half. what's the arguments now

edit: also heyo echitsu how about you don't make these matches

 

[CodeCCLL]

I wish someone would just put Reinhard up against Lay so we could watch it...

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I wish someone would just put Reinhard up against Lay so we could watch it...

someone mentioned this but noooo we had to have garooouuuu

 

[Dereck03]

someone mentioned this but noooo we had to have garooouuuu

I wanted Anos vs Reinhard