Medaka Box New year's Hax Revisions Part 2 (Kumagawa)

[Cipher72]

Hello Medaka Box supporters, Nice to meet you, How are you ? Thank you for following these threads. You have my heartfelt gratitude.
Now that one thread has concluded what better time to do this than now. Time for Part 2 of Medaka Box hax revisions and cleaning up profiles.
This thread just like the previous one will solely focus on Kumagawa.
Here's a link to his updated profile;

I will seperate this CRT into four segments;

Spoiler: Segment 1: Abilities that should be removed/reworded

Immortality (Type 2 normally)

This has no justification so either we can remove it or use the example of Kumagawa survivng with a screw in his head.

[[Immortality]] (Type 2 can survive with a screw lodged in his head, Type 4 via All Fiction; Using All Fiction Kumagawa could resurrect himself)

Now for this;

In addition to Subjective Reality and Weapon Creation (With Imagination Manifestation)

Spoiler: Removal of Subjective Reality

- So yea this should be gone, I am neutral on the weapon Creation bit but subjective reality shouldn't be listed on his profile and I will explain why.

- The argument comes from these panels in ch 110-111 where the student council and others are partaking in a trial, in said trial they are basically participating in a “make a believe game” where they have to beat an imaginary cerebus. So Kumagawa essentially creates an image of an imaginary blade via imposing the image of said imaginary blade on those around him in the end because of his loser personality the blade crumbles so I suggest that this should be removed.

For this segment;

Power Nullification and Statistics Reduction (Can bring an opponent down to his level in intellect, technique, body, and spirit with Book Maker), likely Sealing, Durability Negation, and Non-Physical Interaction (Book Maker is capable of by-passing defensive abilities and traits including non-corporeality)

Sealing and NPI should be removed

Durability negation can be argued(check Segment 2) but per wiki standards it doesn't qualify for sealing since Bookmaker doesn't doesn't confine someone in a vessel.

Sealing is the ability to confine/place something within something else acting as a containment vessel.

The justification for Non Physical being that Anshin has a skill that lets her become a ghost (She doesn't even have Incorporeality in her profile) is too much of a stretch.

so it should be reworded to;

[[Power Nullification]], [[Statistics Reduction]], [[Durability Negation]] [[Mind Manipulation]] (Can bring an opponent [ down to his level in intellect, technique, body, and spirit with Book Maker] as well as [ seal their powers] Kumagawa can impose the image of a screw on those around him or spawn a screw [ directly inside someone], his screws deals mental damage and soil the hearts of others.)

Now for new abilities;

Spoiler: Segment 2: Abilities that might get added for his first key

Spoiler: Basic abilities

• [[Enhanced Sense|Enhanced Vision & hearing]] (Telescopic vision; Kumagawa can [ see and hear conversation from far away].)

• [[Stealth Mastery]] (Kumagawa is capable of erasing his own aura and catching others off guard)

- Now do note that this can be treated as a “Haha Funny gag moment” but I found this to be very interesting. Also I thought that erasure of aura would give him some sort of ability

• [[Weapon Creation]] (Kumagawa can [https://imgur.com/a/7KP3fje create screws out of thin air]).

• Limited [[Metal Manipulation]] (Kumagawa can adjust the length of his screws)

These are the abilities he currently has listed

• Minor Space Manipulation, Absolute Zero, Temperature Manipulation, Existence Erasure, Time Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Law Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Power Nullification, and Resurrection through Causality Manipulation (All Fiction is an ability that denies the existence[1] of cause and effect.[2] With it Kumagawa can warp space[3], induce Absolute Zero via erasing the temperature from something,[4] erase people like Zenkichi,[5] erase time,[4] erase the concept of all colours, [6] erase laws,[4] erase memories[7], erase powers[8] and even erase his own injuries[6][1][3][9] making him capable of resurrecting himself[2])

With these I propose adding;

Spoiler: Abilities that might get added for his first key via erasure

• [[Perception Manipulation|Vision Manipulation]], [[Aura|Aura Erasure]] & [[Restoration|Temporal Restoration]] (Erased [https://imgur.com/a/axb6Ztj Zenkichi's sight] & his own aura, Kumagawa can [https://imgur.com/a/n85LJtx erase injuries and restore other objects or someone's injuries]).

Explanation; The Previous profile had healing listed but it got caught up in the revisions and never got added because I forgot to list it either way I feel like [[Restoration]] is a better fit than [[Healing]] since he is erasing the cause behind the injuries thus restoring himself.

Now for Resistance;

Spoiler: Segment 3: Resistance that might get added

• Minor [[Resistance]] to [[Empathic Manipulation]] (Mizou Yukuhashi was unable to read his thoughts and thought that he had no heart, Akane stated that Kumagawa was capable of killing his emotions in an instant. Kumagawa was unaffected by Medaka's charisma)

- Now the reason why this is minor is because later on Anshin told us that Kumagawa does have something that resembles a heart and [https://imgur.com/a/QAIO8KY everytime Kuma dies he meets the Anshin inside his heart], we also learn that Hitoyishi's mom and Anshin are the only ones capable of bringing out his emotions and that he does have emotions to an extent.
Another resistance addition:

• Likely Resistance to Low Temperatures (was completely unimpeded by the low temperatures of the Antarctic circle, resisted having his blood frozen.)

This is already listed in Mogura's profile and Kumagawa did the same

For Bookmaker;

• [[Resistance]] to [[Power Nullification]] (Kumagawa's Bookmaker is the only skill in History that works on a Not-Equal like Anshin, Anshin was unable to nullify Kumagawa's Bookmaker despite possessing Live Zero a skill that nullifie other skills)

Now the contested segment;

• [[Resistance]] to [[Pain Manipulation]] (Kumagawa can erase his own pain allowing him to [https://imgur.com/a/gCqaXE1 endure the pain from injuries] or [https://imgur.com/a/lNjoDVA getting killed])

Spoiler: Justification for Resistance to Pain Manipulation

Justification: Alright this one is not so straightforward but rather it's implied which is why I decided to seperate this one, throughout the series we see Kumagawa suffering massive damages such as

• Screwing himself in the head
• Getting stabbed in the head

- Stabbing himself in the head
- Having his arm blown apart
- Getting hit by Hinokage
- Getting pummeled by Hitoyishi
- Having his face rotten away by Rafflesia
Obviously Kumagawa “healed” himself afterwards but he still had to bear the pain So from these we can infer that either Kumagawa has immense pain tolerance or that he is simply erasing his own Pain depending on that we can list it under his stamina somehow or give him Resistance to Pain Manipulation

Spoiler: Segment 4: Keys

Alright after giving this some thoughts I figured we could split the keys like this
Key 1: Pre-Kumagawa Incident Medaka Fight
Key 2: Post-Kumagawa Incident Medaka Fight upto chapter 168
Key 3: EOS

Justification: Throughout the series we see different versions of All Fiction (notably 4)

• Main version: (This is his Key 1 version which he basically modified from Hundred Gauntlet and later gave to Anshin in return for Bookmaker it's only weakness is that it can't undo something it previously did)
• Weak All Fiction: This is the All Fiction he uses without Hundred Gauntlets it's incapable of erasing things that have strong feelings such as:

- Zenkichi's wounds from Seppuku​

- Shiranui's memories​

- April Fiction: (Same potency as All Fiction from his Key 1 version just that whatever he does is reversed after 1 hour)

- Non Fiction: (He can undo anything that his All Fiction erases although we never got to see it in action)

So yea this should split his profile nicely also his weakness should be added for his second key, I am obviously open to other suggestions.

Spoiler: Summary

• Removal of abilities and some changes in wording as well as addition of scans and references
• Addition of abilities
• Addition of Resistance
• Seperation of Keys and adding a weakness

That's all I can think of tell me if I missed something. Give me your input also I tried my best to format this but since I am relatively new it's most likely I messed up somewhere so I apologise in advance if I screwed up something (no pun intended).
Also I would appreciate it if the other verse supporters weighed in their opinions.

Edit: Alright as promised I am done with the Profile

Cipher72/sandbox Misogi-Kumagawa

vsbattles.fandom.com

Spoiler: Summary of Changes

Firstly I added two new abilities to the stuff Kuma can do with All Fiction those being [[Psuedo Time-stop]] & [[Psuedo Teleportation]] which are already listed under his speed section.

He can also make his time zero so that his movements become virtually instantaneous, granting him Pseudo-Teleportation and Pseudo-Time Stop

Secondly I took the liberty of adding the links for those two abilities in the speed section (I left everything else untouched)

I also added other abilities namely;

Limited Leadership & Charisma (Kumagawa managed to gather signatures of Class Minuses-13 to aid him with his plan of becoming the next student council president[3], because of his nature as a minus amongst other minuses,[4] other minuses are drawn to him and follow him[5])

Enhanced Willpower (Endured severe pain and got back up with sheer will[6], carried the burden of Minuses on his back[7][8])

And the resistance to heat section

Limited Resistance to Hot and Cold (was completely unimpeded by the low temperatures[23][24] of the Antarctic circle, was fine with having his blood and wounds frozen. Wasn't affected by a really hot Ice[24] and was basically fine after the plane he was in crashed into a rocket[25])

I also removed the Limited from the Empathic Manipulation section:

Limited Empathic Manipulation (Crushed the hearts of almost an entire assembly of high class candidates with only a few words, while he was intentionally holding back to filter out the most qualified among them. Medaka was in disbelief that any of the crowd members were still standing after experiencing his Minus mentality)

Which I reworded to this

Empathic Manipulation (Crushed the hearts of almost an entire assembly of 632 high class candidates[32], most of whom were Not-Equals[32][33][34] with only a few words, while he was intentionally holding back to filter out the most qualified among them. Medaka was in disbelief that any of the crowd members were still standing after experiencing his Minus mentality[32][Scale1])

- I reworded the Weakness to better fit his new keys;

Spoiler: Kumagawa Weakness

Weaknesses: Kumagawa is very underconfident, to the degree that he always assumes that he will lose. Even though he wants to win, he cannot imagine that he ever will. Because of this, his Imagination Manifestation is incredibly weak. A continuous cycle of death can incapacitate him, although he has limited resistance to Empathic Manipulation there have been several moments where he has expressed his feelings, such as his frustration when Najime gave Zenkichi her eyes or when Anshin left him a final message. It's also been stated that Hitomi and Anshin are capable of bringing forward his emotions | In his second key Kumagawa's 「 All Fiction」is nerfed to the point where he is unable to erase things that have strong feelings and things that have a strong emotionsal impact on others | In his third Key Kumagawa's erasure from 「April Fiction 」only lasts for three minutes | However that's not the case for his 「Non Fiction 」in his EOS Key.

I also added the weakness Limited Erasure for his Weak All Fiction key:

All previous abilities and Resistance but with Limited Erasure (granted by All Fiction), in addition to:

I added the limitation for his April Fiction key:

All Previous abilities and Resistance but without the previous weaknesses for「 All Fiction」; however 「 All Fiction」is now restricted to Limited Erasure:

Causality Manipulation and Limited Erasure (As 「 All Fiction」is now capable of erasing anyone regardless of their feelings[13] but the erasure only lasts for 3 minutes)

Now finally the Key splits;
As shown in the OP, Originally the keys were going to be something like this:

Key 1: Pre-Kumagawa Incident Medaka Fight
Key 2: Post-Kumagawa Incident Medaka Fight upto chapter 168
Key 3: EOS

But then I realised that Non Fiction doesn't have the same limitations as April Fiction (3 min timer) and April Fiction can't undo changes which is why I decided to split the keys into 4 the justification is given in Segment 4 of the original OP

- I also added cool renders and Quotes (Give suggestions if you have any or just edit the sandbox)

Spoiler: EDIT 2

yea I got bored so I added a bunch of more stuff
I added a weakness

Weaknesses: As a minus amongst Minuses[4] Kumagawa possess terrible luck[35]

I added something already in the OP

Resistance to Power Nullification (Kumagawa's Bookmaker is the only skill in History that works on a Not-Equal like Anshin, Anshin was unable to nullify Kumagawa's Bookmaker[7] despite the latter possessing Live Zero a skill that nullifies other skills[29])

And the Power Nullification section for his All Fiction key

Resistance to Power Erasure and Power Nullification (Minuses can't be completely erased by All Fiction,[26][27] Mogura Kugurugi couldn't erase Book Maker[24], After merging All Fiction with Unskilled a skill that nullifies other skills for a maximum of 3 minutes it turned All Fiction into a skill that makes the “Make it like it didn't happen” process last for 3 minutes,[28] additionally Kumagawa used All Fiction with a combination of Bookmaker to seal Najimi Ajimu [29] with the latter possessing a skill that nullifies other skills[29])

Also it goes without saying Check the sandbox because it's entirely possible that I did something there but forgot to mention it here. That's all.
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Agree: @Agnaa (Removal of Immo type-2), Disagrees with Dura neg, Bookmaker Powernull Resistance), @SomebodyData (Agrees with @Agnaa) @DarkDragonMedeus (agrees with Agnaa) @KingTempest (agrees with Agnaa)
Disagree:

 

[Quiet-Plenty]

I’ll be following this thread but leaning more so towards agreeing with all proposals

 

[Agnaa]

Evaluating part of it, will look at more later.

• Immortality Type 2: I think this should be removed; this ability requires indefinite survival, and briefly having a screw in his head for a minute doesn't actually demonstrate that.
• Power Modification: I don't think this is necessary, since I think the justification as a whole already indicates that it's self-directed.
• Subjective Reality: Agree with removal. I don't think it should be added for Book Maker involving "imposing the image of a screw".
• Weapon Creation: I think this imagination scene shouldn't be treated as weapon creation, so the part of his NA&T about this should be heavily reworded. However, I think he should still have Weapon Creation for spawning the screws, which should be included in his first key.
• Sealing and NPI: Agree with removal.
• Enhanced Senses: Agree with this addition, but I should note that this justification should not be combined with the Stealth Mastery justification; these are completely different abilities and feats.
• Stealth Mastery: I don't even think this should be a "likely". It's a bit of a weird invocation of it, but it works.
• Vision Erasure: Agree with addition.
• Aura Erasure: Agree with addition.
• Restoration: Agree with addition. Although I should mention that this, and the previous two, should be more seamlessly worded into the existing justification, and not be added as a separate parenthetical clause.
• Durability Negation: How do we know that these were actually spawned inside of people, instead of him just quickly stabbing it through them between panels? If he could actually spawn them inside people, why did he bother using the Leg Eating Forest against Shiranui?
• Mind Manipulation: Needs a better justification, imo, the important part isn't the mental damage, but the alteration of their talent/intelligence/etc. And again, you should weave this (and the previous) justification into the existing one, instead of having it as a separate parenthetical.

I didn't look through all of them, but some albums seemed to have unnecessary comments, improper order of pages, and scans that didn't belong.

 

[Cipher72]

Evaluating part of it, will look at more later.

• Immortality Type 2: I think this should be removed; this ability requires indefinite survival, and briefly having a screw in his head for a minute doesn't actually demonstrate that.

Alright I will do that

• Power Modification: I don't think this is necessary, since I think the justification as a whole already indicates that it's self-directed.

Ok

• Subjective Reality: Agree with removal. I don't think it should be added for Book Maker involving "imposing the image of a screw".

Ok

• Weapon Creation: I think this imagination scene shouldn't be treated as weapon creation, so the part of his NA&T about this should be heavily reworded. However, I think he should still have Weapon Creation for spawning the screws, which should be included in his first key.

I did do that kinda ?

• [[Weapon Creation]] (Kumagawa can [ create screws out of thin air]).

This is for his first key

• Sealing and NPI: Agree with removal.

Ok

• Enhanced Senses: Agree with this addition, but I should note that this justification should not be combined with the Stealth Mastery justification; these are completely different abilities and feats.

Alright I will seperate them

• Stealth Mastery: I don't even think this should be a "likely". It's a bit of a weird invocation of it, but it works.

Alright

• Vision Erasure: Agree with addition.
• Aura Erasure: Agree with addition.

K

• Restoration: Agree with addition. Although I should mention that this, and the previous two, should be more seamlessly worded into the existing justification, and not be added as a separate parenthetical clause.

Yes that's what I meant, sorry for not conveying it properly

• Durability Negation: How do we know that these were actually spawned inside of people, instead of him just quickly stabbing it through them between panels? If he could actually spawn them inside people, why did he bother using the Leg Eating Forest against Shiranui?

Umm his profile already has this listed as him spawning inside of people also I think that makes the most sense. Also doesn't the same reasoning apply ? If he can stab someone between panels he could more than likely do that to Shiranui no ?

• Mind Manipulation: Needs a better justification, imo, the important part isn't the mental damage, but the alteration of their talent/intelligence/etc. And again, you should weave this (and the previous) justification into the existing one, instead of having it as a separate parenthetical.

Alright I will merge those two.

I didn't look through all of them, but some albums seemed to have unnecessary comments, improper order of pages, and scans that didn't belong.

When you have the time if possible tell me which ones and I will fix them.

Anyways I fixed the OP, take a look when you have time and tell me what I need to rectify thx.

 

[Agnaa]

This eval should cover the rest of it.

First, responding to your response.

I did do that kinda ?

This is for his first key

Ye, but I think it's important to reword/remove the part of his NA&T that talks about the ability.

Umm his profile already has this listed as him spawning inside of people also I think that makes the most sense.

Well I disagree

Also doesn't the same reasoning apply ? If he can stab someone between panels he could more than likely do that to Shiranui no ?

Shiranui could've simply been too fast or on-guard for that. iirc the times we saw Kumagawa do that sort of thing were:

• Medaka, who was deliberately getting hit by it.
• Mogura, who thought her ability would be able to nullify it.
• Zenkichi, Shiranui, and Kamome, who were ambushed from behind by Kumagawa while they were trying to reason with Medaka.
• This one wasn't done with Book Maker, but the same sort of scene occurred with Jakago, where she had lost, was surrendering, and was shown to be interrupted mid-sentence by this screw. Although tbf Kumagawa's positioning makes it seem like it was deployed without him physically moving much to do so. Then again, immediately before this, Kumagawa took Jakago off-guard by using All Fiction to move in zero time, so this could've been done that way. However, if it was done that way, then he probably would've been able to do the same to Shiranui.

And before the Medaka one, we saw Kumagawa create and manipulate the screw he would later use; it wasn't spawned inside of her. (Actually, thinking about this properly, he should have Limited Metal Manipulation for being able to extend/shrink his screws)

Like, my explanation is that it's as simple as us not being shown him stabbing it into them.

When you have the time if possible tell me which ones and I will fix them.

Ah, looking into it more, it wasn't as bad as it seemed.

• The main Book Maker album presents things from multiple chapters without citing those changes, but is technically fine ig. It has some unnecessary pages (i.e. this and this). I also think reiterating the important parts of those scans is unnecessary, but it's something you can still do.
• The Book Maker sealing album has images out of order; this should be before this.
• The last Book Maker album doesn't work at all.

---

(Sorry for this clunky wording, idk how to say it better)

Anything which I brought up in my first response, which you said you addressed, and which I didn't respond to further here, are places where I'm fine with your fixes.

---

And back to the OP.

• Book Maker: I generally don't think the "imposes the image of a screw" statement really means anything, and so I don't think it should be included. Like contextually, it's about having the mental image of a screw appear to people, which is either irrelevant or contradicts other uses of Book Maker where it's shown to be an actual object.
• Weapon Creation: This album doesn't properly show that the screws Kumagawa had here and here were absent before.
• Adding NPI: I disagree, affecting the mind in this sort of way isn't something that we index as NPI. You need to be interacting with the mind as if it were a physical object, in a way that it isn't ordinarily. This is just mindhax.
• Minor Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: I don't really buy this; he's been overwhelmed by emotions at many points in the series. I'd just say that those earlier statements are exaggerations from non-experts who don't really understand what's going on.
• Resistance to Low Temperatures: Seems fine, but you might want to use other scans to demonstrate this a bit better.
• Resistance to Power Nullification: I disagree, there's too much we don't know to claim that he was able to do this because Book Maker can't be power nulled. He could've ambushed Ajimu without her choosing to use Live Zero, he could've erased Live Zero himself with All Fiction (since we know he used both to seal Ajimu).
• Resistance to Pain Manipulation
  • I think this is just pain tolerance that should go in his Stamina section. We're not told that it's done through AF, so we should just stick with the default assumption.
  • The justification you wrote links the same album twice.
  • The "death loop" shouldn't be a part of this, since we're explicitly told in that scene that there was no death loop!!!!!! Saki wanted to put him in one, but she wasn't able to convince her minions to harm him in that way. Please remove this.
• Key Split: I agree with this in principle, but it would require a lot of legwork that you haven't really demonstrated (particularly some new weaknesses being written). I'd like to see what you have in mind before this is applied.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with Agnaa's conclusions here.

 

[Cipher72]

This eval should cover the rest of it.

First, responding to your response.

Ye, but I think it's important to reword/remove the part of his NA&T that talks about the ability.

Ok

Well I disagree

Shiranui could've simply been too fast or on-guard for that. iirc the times we saw Kumagawa do that sort of thing were:

• Medaka, who was deliberately getting hit by it.

Yes it does look like he threw Bookmaker

• Mogura, who thought her ability would be able to nullify it.

I thought it was one of those cool speed bliz type scene ?

• Zenkichi, Shiranui, and Kamome, who were ambushed from behind by Kumagawa while they were trying to reason with Medaka.
• This one wasn't done with Book Maker, but the same sort of scene occurred with Jakago, where she had lost, was surrendering, and was shown to be interrupted mid-sentence by this screw. Although tbf Kumagawa's positioning makes it seem like it was deployed without him physically moving much to do so. Then again, immediately before this, Kumagawa took Jakago off-guard by using All Fiction to move in zero time, so this could've been done that way. However, if it was done that way, then he probably would've been able to do the same to Shiranui.

I swear the implication in the Zenkichi, Shiranui one is that he actually threw the screw instead of spawning it in them.
Either way

And before the Medaka one, we saw Kumagawa create and manipulate the screw he would later use; it wasn't spawned inside of her. (Actually, thinking about this properly, he should have Limited Metal Manipulation for being able to extend/shrink his screws)

I will add that

Like, my explanation is that it's as simple as us not being shown him stabbing it into them.

I feel like that's weird on one hand we have the two scenes you mentioned like the Zenkichi, Shiranui, and Kamome scene or the Moguro scene where it's very much implied that he was throwing/quickly impaling them with the screws even in the Medaka Scene I could see that but the Jakago one is weird in that sense and if he truly did that via erasing time the same could be done with Shiranui. The way I interpreted the Medaka and Jakago scene is that he basically imposed the Bookmaker/All Fiction screws on to Medaka or Jakago, like Akuno suggested later on. Now it could be a matter of him unable to project it directly on Shiranui or wanting Shiranui to taste victory before crushing her but imo if he truly did stab Medaka/Jakago in those scenes it would be hinted at better.

Ah, looking into it more, it wasn't as bad as it seemed.

• The main Book Maker album presents things from multiple chapters without citing those changes, but is technically fine ig. It has some unnecessary pages (i.e. this and this). I also think reiterating the important parts of those scans is unnecessary, but it's something you can still do.

Ok , I just added those to give context and like you said highlight stuff.

• The Book Maker sealing album has images out of order; this should be before this.

Fixed

• The last Book Maker album doesn't work at all.

---

Changed the Album also it's not a Bookmaker one but the All Fiction one for mental damage so I removed that, tell me if this is enough for mental damage and whether I should add this to the list of All Fiction stuff or seperately

Image Chest

Post with 48 views.

imgchest.com

Looks like the Imgur link isn't working mb

And back to the OP.

• Book Maker: I generally don't think the "imposes the image of a screw" statement really means anything, and so I don't think it should be included. Like contextually, it's about having the mental image of a screw appear to people, which is either irrelevant or contradicts other uses of Book Maker where it's shown to be an actual object.

I think it can be both, Bookmaker is essentially Kumagawa projecting his insecurities onto others so yes it's physical in the sense it's a physical object that exists but it can be directly imposed onto others either way I will remove that.

• Weapon Creation: This album doesn't properly show that the screws Kumagawa had here and here were absent before.

I will fix that

• Adding NPI: I disagree, affecting the mind in this sort of way isn't something that we index as NPI. You need to be interacting with the mind as if it were a physical object, in a way that it isn't ordinarily. This is just mindhax.

Ok I will remove that

• Minor Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: I don't really buy this; he's been overwhelmed by emotions at many points in the series. I'd just say that those earlier statements are exaggerations from non-experts who don't really understand what's going on.

I added more elaboration, he is really good at suppressing his emotions to the point of completely killing them in an instant and we even have Anshin's statement so I think Minor is fine, I am not arguing that he has no emotions or a great deal of resistance but minor should be fine no ?

• Resistance to Low Temperatures: Seems fine, but you might want to use other scans to demonstrate this a bit better.

I will add the scar dead scene

• Resistance to Power Nullification: I disagree, there's too much we don't know to claim that he was able to do this because Book Maker can't be power nulled. He could've ambushed Ajimu without her choosing to use Live Zero, he could've erased Live Zero himself with All Fiction (since we know he used both to seal Ajimu).

Although I did use Live Zero as an example I was more so referring to this panel where it says: “Something that relief attendent couldn't seal, that sort of Minus” and considering that Bookmaker is the minus that is stated to be the one that can harm Non Equals (Sorry if I butchered that) and how Kumagawa defeated a clone of Najime with Bookmaker with Live Zero being cited by Anshin herself as one of her skills as well as how the skill works I think the inference is plausible. (it's one of the few skills actually explained)

• Resistance to Pain Manipulation
  • I think this is just pain tolerance that should go in his Stamina section. We're not told that it's done through AF, so we should just stick with the default assumption.
  • The justification you wrote links the same album twice.

I mean I am not against it like I said that this isn't very straightforward but with how much he likes to stab himself without showing a hint of pain I think he can erase his pain but I am fine with what you suggested

• • The "death loop" shouldn't be a part of this, since we're explicitly told in that scene that there was no death loop!!!!!! Saki wanted to put him in one, but she wasn't able to convince her minions to harm him in that way. Please remove this.

Oh yea I just re-read that segment mb. I will remove that.

• Key Split: I agree with this in principle, but it would require a lot of legwork that you haven't really demonstrated (particularly some new weaknesses being written). I'd like to see what you have in mind before this is applied.

What other weaknesses should I add and do I make like a draft or a sandbox of the profile ?
I can do that if you give me some time.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I think what Agnaa put makes sense. I personally think the key splits could be handled a little differently (like putting it by arcs or something), something I was gonna do but just never got around to it.

 

[Cipher72]

I think what Agnaa put makes sense. I personally think the key splits could be handled a little differently (like putting it by arcs or something), something I was gonna do but just never got around to it.

Get to it.

 

[Cipher72]

I am fine with Agnaa's conclusions here.

If possible can you ping another staff member or members to take a quick look at the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

If possible can you ping another staff member or members to take a quick look at the thread.

@DontTalkDT

Are you willing to take a look here as well please? I think that you helped out with Medaka Box previously.

 

[Agnaa]

I thought it was one of those cool speed bliz type scene ?

Mayhaps a bit of both.

I swear the implication in the Zenkichi, Shiranui one is that he actually threw the screw instead of spawning it in them.
Either way

Yeah I can see that.

I feel like that's weird on one hand we have the two scenes you mentioned like the Zenkichi, Shiranui, and Kamome scene or the Moguro scene where it's very much implied that he was throwing/quickly impaling them with the screws even in the Medaka Scene I could see that but the Jakago one is weird in that sense and if he truly did that via erasing time the same could be done with Shiranui. The way I interpreted the Medaka and Jakago scene is that he basically imposed the Bookmaker/All Fiction screws on to Medaka or Jakago, like Akuno suggested later on. Now it could be a matter of him unable to project it directly on Shiranui or wanting Shiranui to taste victory before crushing her but imo if he truly did stab Medaka/Jakago in those scenes it would be hinted at better.

I think it can be both, Bookmaker is essentially Kumagawa projecting his insecurities onto others so yes it's physical in the sense it's a physical object that exists but it can be directly imposed onto others either way I will remove that.

Meh, I think either way we don't have much information, and I don't like drawing big conclusions from stuff so vague. Especially since one of the main ones (the Jakago one) was done without Book Maker.

Changed the Album also it's not a Bookmaker one but the All Fiction one for mental damage so I removed that, tell me if this is enough for mental damage and whether I should add this to the list of All Fiction stuff or seperately

Image Chest

Post with 48 views.

imgchest.com

Looks like the Imgur link isn't working mb

I don't think that's real. I think they were just traumatised by being ambushed, overpowered, and brutally skewered. I think that sort of thing could reasonably lead to "mental damage", especially in the broader context of what All Fiction does.

I will fix that

I think it's probably better formatting to split the two animated GLK feats into two separate videos. Otherwise it implies they happened right after each other in the anime, when in truth, they were like 10 minutes apart.

I added more elaboration, he is really good at suppressing his emotions to the point of completely killing them in an instant and we even have Anshin's statement so I think Minor is fine, I am not arguing that he has no emotions or a great deal of resistance but minor should be fine no ?

Actually yeah I think I may have been too much of a stickler, given how the Telepathy is based on sensing emotions.

Could you clarify what you mean here by "Anshin's statement"? I don't see a relevant one linked there.

The Medaka charisma one doesn't actually show that; it just says that her attempts to sympathize failed, which kinda seems like a lack of comprehension on her part, especially given how Kumagawa did actually soften after coming to Hakoniwa.

I also think you should include the limitations of it; times he was upset (learning that Emukae's ability wasn't erased, showing his emotions to Ajimu in an attempt to get Book Maker, maybe some others I don't remember rn).

I will add the scar dead scene

I don't understand what this has to do with resistance to low temperatures.

Although I did use Live Zero as an example I was more so referring to this panel where it says: “Something that relief attendent couldn't seal, that sort of Minus” and considering that Bookmaker is the minus that is stated to be the one that can harm Non Equals (Sorry if I butchered that) and how Kumagawa defeated a clone of Najime with Bookmaker with Live Zero being cited by Anshin herself as one of her skills as well as how the skill works I think the inference is plausible. (it's one of the few skills actually explained)

Hmm, that wording struck me as odd contextually, so I found the original text. It looks like the word used for "seal" was 封じる. Given that word's definitions, idk if it means that she couldn't nullify it, I think it could just mean that she couldn't stop it (which as I said, could've been for a variety of reasons). I don't think it's a strong enough indicator for me.

Also, I do kinda think aspects like that of the clone scene seem like they may have been a bit dumb for plot reasons. Like, there's no reason why the Kumagawa clone should've died to Zenkichi's punch there. Or why the Medaka clone wouldn't have either lost earlier, or beat Ajimu regardless, due to her luck.

Actually, looking back at it, while they're clearly wounded during that fight, they're completely fine immediately afterwards, and Medaka says that they were just illusions made from clothes. Maybe their profile should be deleted, and the scaling here shouldn't really be considered.

What other weaknesses should I add and do I make like a draft or a sandbox of the profile ?
I can do that if you give me some time.

Yeah I think a sandbox of the profile would be good; that way I could clean up formatting and stuff before it's applied to the actual page.

I think the weaknesses you've outlined in the original post are fine.

 

[Cipher72]

Meh, I think either way we don't have much information, and I don't like drawing big conclusions from stuff so vague. Especially since one of the main ones (the Jakago one) was done without Book Maker.

That's fine, AF has dura neg either way but I thought that giving Bookmaker some form of limited Dura neg would work but I see where you are coming from so I honestly don't mind.

I don't think that's real. I think they were just traumatised by being ambushed, overpowered, and brutally skewered. I think that sort of thing could reasonably lead to "mental damage", especially in the broader context of what All Fiction does.

Isn't the statement from narration by Akune though and Kuma's screws behaves very differently, we see multiple people getting hit by then (AF ones) yet even the ones where he doesn't erase their injuries they don't actually sustain much damage but rather the damage and they start healing just that the damage is mental which coincides with what's written here and again this isn't a big deal so I don't mind it if Kuma doesn't get this because he has memory erasure and mind manip with Bookmaker.

I think it's probably better formatting to split the two animated GLK feats into two separate videos. Otherwise it implies they happened right after each other in the anime, when in truth, they were like 10 minutes apart.

Okey I will do that, it's just that Imgur only allows 1 video/album

Could you clarify what you mean here by "Anshin's statement"? I don't see a relevant one linked there.

The “Kumagawa has something that resembles a heart” statement. It's in the segment that elaborates on the resistance.

Now the reason why this is minor is because later on Anshin told us that Kumagawa does have something that resembles a heart and [ everytime Kuma dies he meets the Anshin inside his heart], we also learn that Hitoyishi's mom and Anshin are the only ones capable of bringing out his emotions and that he does have emotions to an extent.

I also think you should include the limitations of it; times he was upset (learning that Emukae's ability wasn't erased, showing his emotions to Ajimu in an attempt to get Book Maker, maybe some others I don't remember rn).

I already had some of those added in the OP I can add some more if you want.

I don't understand what this has to do with resistance to low temperatures.

Isn't that where he gets his Blood and wounds frozen by Youka ?

that wording struck me as odd contextually, so I found the original text. It looks like the word used for "seal" was 封じる. Given that word's definitions, idk if it means that she couldn't nullify it, I think it could just mean that she couldn't stop it (which as I said, could've been for a variety of reasons). I don't think it's a strong enough indicator for me.

I C, I was just adding info from different stuff to reach this conclusion but I see where you are coming from.

Also, I do kinda think aspects like that of the clone scene seem like they may have been a bit dumb for plot reasons. Like, there's no reason why the Kumagawa clone should've died to Zenkichi's punch there. Or why the Medaka clone wouldn't have either lost earlier, or beat Ajimu regardless, due to her luck.

Obviously a fair bit of it is PIS but my personal headcanon is that.

• They just had to defeat them and not kill them which is why
• Despite “sealing” Najime, Kuma won (when Bookmaker keeps the target alive)
• Kumagawa didn't resurrect

Also I feel like Medaka's clone didn't get her luck because it's unique to Medaka if you get what I mean. I mean later on we are told that they are lucky to have companions they can defeats so that's what I understood.

Yeah I think a sandbox of the profile would be good; that way I could clean up formatting and stuff before it's applied to the actual page.

So I will just make a full on sandbox that's 1:1 with the current profile and just add the stuff from the OP ?

 

[Agnaa]

Isn't the statement from narration by Akune though and Kuma's screws behaves very differently, we see multiple people getting hit by then (AF ones) yet even the ones where he doesn't erase their injuries they don't actually sustain much damage but rather the damage and they start healing just that the damage is mental which coincides with what's written here and again this isn't a big deal so I don't mind it if Kuma doesn't get this because he has memory erasure and mind manip with Bookmaker.

I figured that was just an inconsistent/early showing of the ability, that he was meant to have some way to heal people but the details weren't fully figured out yet. Especially given how he's later used it to actually physically hurt people.

Okey I will do that, it's just that Imgur only allows 1 video/album

Wha? I've made tons of albums with multiple videos in them. Maybe it's because you're not logged in for smth?

If you're still having issues with imgur, try imagechest or catbox (both of those need accounts to create albums with videos).

The “Kumagawa has something that resembles a heart” statement. It's in the segment that elaborates on the resistance.

I don't think that actually implies a resistance to empathic manip. I think it's a very ordinary statement that means basically nothing. Talking about some evil person and saying they have "something that resembles a heart" is just saying that even though they're evil, they still have emotions/feelings.

I already had some of those added in the OP I can add some more if you want.

If you know of any that you think it makes sense, go ahead.

Isn't that where he gets his Blood and wounds frozen by Youka ?

We only saw him like that for a single panel, as one of multiple background characters, only a few of whom were shivering. I don't think that's enough to really substantiate that.

So I will just make a full on sandbox that's 1:1 with the current profile and just add the stuff from the OP ?

Yes please.

 

[Cipher72]

I figured that was just an inconsistent/early showing of the ability, that he was meant to have some way to heal people but the details weren't fully figured out yet. Especially given how he's later used it to actually physically hurt people.

That's one interpretation, I always figured that his Minuses (obviously reflects his personality) and his screws are a means to project that personality (more so insecurities) onto others. Like All Fiction (Comes from his insecurity of being unable to accomplish anything) turns all achievements/effort into nothing, Bookmaker obviously brings you down to his level (he considers himself a failure) and his screws basically project this insecurity directly onto you thus soiling your heart/dealing mental damage. With how clear cut the feat is, I think it's fine to index but then again I honestly don't mind otherwise.

Wha? I've made tons of albums with multiple videos in them. Maybe it's because you're not logged in for smth?

No I am always logged in, whenever I upload multiple videos only one plays lol maybe because those are GIF and mine are longer ? I will try.

If you're still having issues with imgur, try imagechest or catbox (both of those need accounts to create albums with videos)

Yes I have recently started doing that but doesn't Catbox give seperate links ?
Anyways I will figure it out.

If you know of any that you think it makes sense, go ahead.

I will

We only saw him like that for a single panel, as one of multiple background characters, only a few of whom were shivering. I don't think that's enough to really substantiate that.

I think there are other examples but that is like a supporting feat with the Pole Feat being the centre but yea.

Yes please.

I already made one and put most stuff in but I still need to add references, some final touches and double check the formatting & grammar. (Gimme a couple of min)
Speaking of that do you mind sharing some good renders?

Cipher72/sandbox Misogi-Kumagawa

vsbattles.fandom.com

You are more than welcome to edit the sandbox btw that would also be appreciated

 

[Agnaa]

No I am always logged in, whenever I upload multiple videos only one plays lol maybe because those are GIF and mine are longer ? I will try.

It's fine if only one plays at a time, people can just scroll to and start another one.

Mine aren't gifs, they're full dang proper videos.

Yes I have recently started doing that but doesn't Catbox give seperate links ?
Anyways I will figure it out.

Catbox lets you assemble those links into albums once you've logged in; they look like this.

You are more than welcome to edit the sandbox btw that would also be appreciated

Will do eventually.

 

[Cipher72]

It's fine if only one plays at a time, people can just scroll to and start another one.

No I meant like only one plays
Try this
See if this works

Mine aren't gifs, they're full dang proper videos.

Oh lol might be a problem on my end then

Catbox lets you assemble those links into albums once you've logged in; they look like this.

I C I will try doing something like that

Will do eventually.

Thx I will fix up the stuff, also I have some new ideas that I will compile and once I am done with the sandbox I will tag you and edit the OP.

 

[Agnaa]

No I meant like only one plays
Try this
See if this works

Ye, it's just that one plays at a time for me. The top one automatically plays, and when I press play on the other one the top one stops playing. So it works just fine, really.

Thx I will fix up the stuff, also I have some new ideas that I will compile and once I am done with the sandbox I will tag you and edit the OP.

ty :3

 

[Cipher72]

Catbox lets you assemble those links into albums once you've logged in; they look like this.

I figured out how to do those and I edited the OP. Also something I didn't mention in the edit that I am going to be mentioning here because it's an ongoing topic is the durability negation segment.

• The Mind Manipulation bit with All Fiction is kind of damming but I don't mind the contrary
• The Durability Negation imo is also valid but I can also see why someone would be opposed to indexing those based on how it was only used twice (once with Bookmaker and the other with All Fiction) I personally think it makes sense but yea.

I didn't add the Mind stuff for All Fiction in the OP but I added the dura neg so feel free to edit it out if you want.

Also some other thoughts

• If we are removing dura neg via screw spawning best to remove that from the AP segment as well
• I think Kuma should get Resistance to Pain Manipulation based on the sheer number of times he suffered fatal injuries (this is probably the point I am most hesitant to give up on.)

 

[Agnaa]

Guess we just wait for other input, then.

 

[Cipher72]

Guess we just wait for other input, then.

Are there any besides Ant and you ? Ik DT gave his opinion on the previous one but are there any more active mods ?

 

[Agnaa]

There's other active mods, but none that are really into Medaka Box.

 

[Cipher72]

There's other active mods, but none that are really into Medaka Box.

So wut I do ? I think other mods should be fine with taking a look even if they aren't familiar with Medaka Box ? Should I go msg some on their walls or ....

 

[Antvasima]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Imaginym @Godernet

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

 

[Cipher72]

Made a second Edit in the OP btw

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm in general agreement with Agnaa, though I think maybe a "Possibly Immortality (Type 2)" might work, since its kinda hard to ignore the screw in the head feat and I'm not sure if adding it to Stamina alone suffices.

 

[Cipher72]

I'm in general agreement with Agnaa, though I think maybe a "Possibly Immortality (Type 2)" might work, since its kinda hard to ignore the screw in the head feat and I'm not sure if adding it to Stamina alone suffices.

Well Immo-2 is for a long period of time so I am kinda in general agreement with Agnaa there that it should be removed since albeit Kuma doesn't seem affected by it it's most likely that screw isn't doing physical damage but rather mental damage refer to this

Image Chest

Post with 48 views.

imgchest.com

Which is why I am more inclined on scrapping Type-2 and instead adding [[Mind Manipulation]] for his All Fiction screws but I didn't add it because Agnaa disagreed with it (idk whether he has changed his stance)
I mostly agree with Agnaa except a couple of things (Do note that he hasn't looked at the whole thing yet so there might be more stuff that he disagrees with)
I will list the things I mostly am opposed to (Since Medaka Box is a very subjective series)
Get ready for a bit of info dump

Spoiler: Contested Stuff

Resistance to Power Nullification (Kumagawa's Bookmaker is the only skill in History that works on a Not-Equal like Anshin, Anshin was unable to nullify Kumagawa's Bookmaker[7] despite the latter possessing Live Zero a skill that nullifies other skills[29])

This is one of the two things I disagree with Agnaa on also I recently realised something;

Spoiler: EXPLANATION

As Agnaa pointed out the raw for sealing is a bit weird

Hmm, that wording struck me as odd contextually, so I found the original text. It looks like the word used for "seal" was 封じる. Given that word's definitions, idk if it means that she couldn't nullify it, I think it could just mean that she couldn't stop it (which as I said, could've been for a variety of reasons). I don't think it's a strong enough indicator for me.

However it's also true that Najime couldn't nullify it,
- We know Kuma didn't use All Fiction because

• The Skill still exists (Kuma atp in the story couldn't undo his erasure)​
• Medaka Hypothesised that he fully realised All Fiction after he had switched school which is after the Najime Incident which also makes sense since he lost to Medaka (but I might be messing up the chronology a bit)​

So I feel like even if All Fiction doesn't qualify for Resistance to Power Nullification, Bookmaker Should.

Justification: Alright this one is not so straightforward but rather it's implied which is why I decided to seperate this one, throughout the series we see Kumagawa suffering massive damages such as
- Getting stabbed in the head
- Stabbing himself in the head
- Having his arm blown apart
- Getting hit by Hinokage
- Getting pummeled by Hitoyishi
- Having his face rotten away by Rafflesia
Obviously Kumagawa “healed” himself afterwards but he still had to bear the pain So from these we can infer that either Kumagawa has immense pain tolerance or that he is simply erasing his own Pain depending on that we can list it under his stamina somehow or give him Resistance to Pain Manipulation

This is the other segment where I disagree with Agnaa, I can see where he is coming from since the ability is more so implied rather than being downright stated and Kuma does show good pain tolerance and a fair bit of willpower but even then with the sheer amount of times where he has suffered painful injuries I think you have a solid case for him being capable of erasing his pain (He does something similar where he erases fatigue of others) so yea

*'''[[Power Nullification]], [[Statistics Reduction]], [[Mind Manipulation]]''' and possibly '''[[Durability Negation]]''' (Can bring an opponent down to his level in intellect, technique, body, and spirit]<ref name="MC90" /> with Book Maker as well as seal their powers]<ref name=" MC93">''Medaka Box''; Chapter 93</ref><ref name="MC176">''Medaka Box''; Chapter 176</ref>. His screws soils the heart of others<ref name="MC90" />, Kumagawa can impose the image of a screw on those around him<ref name="MC110-111">''Medaka Box''; Chapter (110-111)</ref> or spawn a screw directly inside someone.<ref name="MBGK"/><ref name="MC90"/>)

For this part it's only the bolded segment essentially he disagrees with it because there isn't enough evidence depicting this, moreover one time he did it with his All Fiction Screws and the other time he seemed to do it with his Bookmaker so there's a consistency probelm.
I personally think he should have it but I don't mind going the more conservative approach here and conceding this ability.

So yea these are the 3 contested segments (until now) since he hasn't finished reading the blog, btw if you think any scan is missing check the blog. I am mostly fine with his conclusion on the third though (Durability Negation screws via spawning then inside someone) because of the lack of evidence.
That's the TLDR.

 

[Cipher72]

Bump

 

[Agnaa]

Welp, I'm going through mental health issues involving loss of interest in most things, including battleboarding.

Based on historical experiences, I'll probably get back into the swing of things in 1-9 months, but until then I won't be engaging in anything that requires more than the absolute minimum of effort, or is of the utmost criticality.

So, the evaluation I said I'd do likely won't come in a relevant timeframe.

 

[Cipher72]

Welp, I'm going through mental health issues involving loss of interest in most things, including battleboarding.

Based on historical experiences, I'll probably get back into the swing of things in 1-9 months, but until then I won't be engaging in anything that requires more than the absolute minimum of effort, or is of the utmost criticality.

So, the evaluation I said I'd do likely won't come in a relevant timeframe.

That's completely fine, take care of your IRL stuff. I will hold off on further upgrades for Medaka Box. I hope everything goes well, Best of luck.

 

[Agnaa]

Naw I think you should keep making 'em. If there's stuff I take issue with, I can point it out later.

 

[Cipher72]

Naw I think you should keep making 'em. If there's stuff I take issue with, I can point it out later.

The last thing I want is to go on a 9 month streak of wanking spreading misinformation also since there's no active mods for the verse besides you and Ant I would rather wait. Anyways take care of your health dw. I will prep the sandboxes meanwhile.

 

[Cipher72]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Imaginym @Godernet

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

Is it possible to tag one more mod to quickly eval this thread.
This is the thread summary

Medaka Box New year's Hax Revisions Part 2 (Kumagawa)

Hello Medaka Box supporters, Nice to meet you, How are you ? Thank you for following these threads. You have my heartfelt gratitude. Now that one thread has concluded what better time to do this than now. Time for Part 2 of Medaka Box hax revisions and cleaning up profiles. This thread just...

vsbattles.com

And this is the sandbox

Cipher72/sandbox Misogi-Kumagawa

vsbattles.fandom.com

If needed I am willing to hold off on applying any of the contested stuff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in general agreement with Agnaa, though I think maybe a "Possibly Immortality (Type 2)" might work, since its kinda hard to ignore the screw in the head feat and I'm not sure if adding it to Stamina alone suffices.

Same

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm, well I would wait for Agnaa when it comes to the contested elements since they're more knowledgeable than I am on this verse; but I'm perfectly fine with adding what has already been accepted in the meantime.

 

[Cipher72]

well I would wait for Agnaa

Well Agnaa is taking a break so....
Ig I will just add everything that Agnaa was fine with and remove the new and contested stuff.
Is that fine ?

Same

Are

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes, that's fine with me

 

[Agnaa]

The last thing I want is to go on a 9 month streak of wanking spreading misinformation

Already happening. Medaka Kurokami has had Infinite stamina for years, despite the text explicitly saying that she doesn't have that.

The current profiles are far from perfect, so I'm sure your changes will end up, overall, being improvements.

But, ultimately do as you wish.

 

[Cipher72]

Medaka Kurokami has had Infinite stamina for years, despite the text explicitly saying that she doesn't have that.

Oh hell nah
I am at least removing that.

 

[Cipher72]

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

Sry for tagging you again but do you mind giving your input again, Agnaa and Data has already agreed with the upgrades (I removed all the new stuff and contested stuff) DDM has also given his opinion.